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Post by soulfien on Mar 31, 2005 10:57:57 GMT -5
Boy.... You evil-doers need help!!! Seriously, professional help, I'm not joking!! I mean, have you listened to yourselves?! Did you read your own posts?
Okay, let me try and get this straight...
Man, we're sick of do-gooders running up and harrassing us just because we're evil! The town law states no fighting in town and being good means that you abide by the law and cannot go hunt people simply based on alignment!
Then you turn around and say.....
Why should we let people know we're evil? We play it smart and act like do-gooders because if we didn't then we would be hunted down and killed!
Now, first you bring up the fact that good people cannot attack you simply because of your alignment and then you swear that if you showed your true colors you'd be hunted....
Where is the logic?
I have played an evil PC on this server and others and trust me- just being evil isn't a crime. You CAN be a blackguard, proud of your evilness, and survive. Be as blatant as you wish and stop impersonating good! Hell, be original and be proud to be bad!!!!!
On another note, I got pretty sick of reading in this thread about how do-gooders have no right to confront evil verbally. Now THAT is false!!! If you are evil it is the good cleric's DUTY to confront you! They convert, it's what they do! Don't believe me, walk into a church dressed in goth! I have yet to see one cleric or paladin preach on this server!!!
I'd do it, but I hate 3.0 clerics. I loved how they were done in 2nd, but 3.0 ruined it for me.
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Misha Aogail
Old School
Player of: Torian Burrfoot, Misha, Whisper, and Oriana Gant
Posts: 324
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Post by Misha Aogail on Mar 31, 2005 12:40:08 GMT -5
I agree with Soulfien.
I played an evil character on another server who wasn't afraid of being evil. Heck, the head priestess in the temple of Chauntea even refused to allow my character to be healed or helped in anyway by the temple because she was so evil. Even after that, she continued to do what she normally did (which really wasn't much...). And just to give you some idea of how bad she is, her hellhound familiar was more accepted than she was.
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Boogiedk
Old School
A mans home is his castle - But it shouldnt have to be his fortress
Posts: 252
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Post by Boogiedk on Mar 31, 2005 16:01:55 GMT -5
umm i know your a BG ../pc wearing mask and purple dragon gear.. because of your class... the question is ..ahh how do you know my class.. oh.. the pc list when you log in I got an ok from a DM that i could spot BGs on sight, even if disguised. I never presume that I have Detect Evil , I dont run around asking every person i see "are you evil? " But Blackguards are the epitome of evil just as Paladins are the epitome of good and they OOZE evil , rabbits scurry , children cry and livestock crawl into holes when they pass and I asked if I could pick up on that and I could . And how I can say " i know what you are " to a BG? IS because of the player list because i dont run around asking everybody I suspect of evil if they are a BG. Its not a matter of me (or other Paladins) detecting evil its just that BGs are evil to such an EXTREME degree that they pollute the air with their over evilness . Why would a BG even try to hide their motives/class anyway? They are CHAMPIONS of evil , they should trample good wherever they go slaying the innocent , take slaves , burning the crops and raping livestock . And this "im evil I can do what I want when I want cause im evil . But wait youre good so you cant you need to wait for "just" cause" doesnt cut it . . . BGs made a choice , they are "unholy" paladins. Just as the paladin have a code so should the BG.
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Post by DM Justicar - Creator of FRC on Mar 31, 2005 17:10:44 GMT -5
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Post by marcusgreycastle on Mar 31, 2005 18:43:03 GMT -5
For the -LAST- stinking time just because someone is evil doesn't mean they go burning villagers and molesting their farm animals...wait...strike that. ...reverse it...
What I'm trying to say is that the alignments aren't: "CG, NG, LG, and Evil"
There are "CE, NE, LE" alignments as well...and those Blackguards (or to a better extent evil clerics...or neutral clerics who worship evil gods) who ARE LAWFUL at least meet with the Paladin on ONE aspect of alignment.
Where the Paladin may wish to put the lawbreaker to trial, the Blackguard may just behead the lawbreaker on the open street in front of everyone.
...or maybe that's just my Blackguard...
carry on...
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Post by Grozer on Mar 31, 2005 20:06:21 GMT -5
No Marcus I am right there with you... it seems the focus is just on the evil part, but alignment includes Lawful vs Chaotic component. To paraphrase what I believe you posted previously...
A lawful evil character would and should act differently from a chaotic evil character. A PC is guided by both aspects of his/her alignment, irregardless of BG status or not.
To put this another way, should we expect a LG and CG character to handle the same situation in the same way? I would hope not.
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Post by soulfien on Mar 31, 2005 20:42:17 GMT -5
Lawful/Chaotic vs. Good/Evil simply means a different means for the same end.
A lawful good pc would abide by the laws and say his hands are tied while the chaotic person would go and "remove" the presence of evil.
Same with evil. Different means to accomplish the same ends.
An evil person - lawful or not is NOT a saint. He is not pure in heart- he IS evil and he WILL commit evil acts.
The first part of the alignment is how he goes about accomplishing the second part.
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Boogiedk
Old School
A mans home is his castle - But it shouldnt have to be his fortress
Posts: 252
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Post by Boogiedk on Apr 1, 2005 4:47:34 GMT -5
Im not talking alignement . . . Im talking class . . . But enough. i will treat ANY character like a little innocent child fresh out of the mommys womb and when they get to kill me, steal from me , outsmart me or whatever. . . I will just suck it up . . . cause preemptive strikes are not allowed
*shrugs* guess good DOES mean stupid . . .
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Post by soulfien on Apr 1, 2005 10:03:09 GMT -5
Okay, now I have to agree with you. A lot of times good does seem stupid on this server... but there are ways to go about taking care of evil pc's. There is one instance I can relate to you... My druid has had a big problem with an evil pc. Now I have seen this pc change back and forth from his "disguise" (if you can call it that) to his evil outfit, seen him carry a banner to an evil god, seen him stand idly by and watch people get slaughtered twice, and knows that he is the only adventurer of his race on the server and STILL I have to go through long ooc debates about metagaming whenever I point a finger at him. Good can't attack evil, but you CAN be rude to them, not help them, ignore them, hinder them, etc... You can play your alignment- just can't attack first. Sometimes you don't have to. Annoy them IC and let them make the first strike Just be sure yhour buddy has it all on tape
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Post by theseeker on Apr 1, 2005 10:28:30 GMT -5
reason is to cause strife rather than walking around dressed in black saying woe to you im evil..its also useing ones brain BG of diffrent faiths will not all act the same my gods domains are trickery and evil so i will lie trick and cause strife.. its my job as a follower of the faith ..if someone keeps saying i know who you are when im wearing a mask.. i will rp on it and kill you to keep my cover..if you want to play things that way..
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Post by Occumfresleven on Apr 6, 2005 2:26:13 GMT -5
Well, I'm sure most of us would go into PvP if truely RPed with out OCC consent, when pushed to the limit, and I doubt there'd be much talk about if you could articulate the situation on the forums.
Other servers have a PvP section where all PvP is required to be posted just stating those involved and the situation, a simple report to ease disputes. The forum had a lot of threads, but people played it like it should since drama and conflict are what RP is all about.
I don't read all the posts on this forum due to the volume of them, but I don't think there's been many complaints about people being killed without good reason.
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Post by Occumfresleven on Apr 6, 2005 2:35:13 GMT -5
also, as for the discription of the BG, all up to interpretation i guess. if you took it word for word, yeah, then being a BG probably means in your background you've done some shady things in public, you're known as the bully on the block or region, and if played by the book, you'd have to be a good RPer to pull it off, and good connections to survive.
But this IS NWN, a DnD video game which dumbs down a lot of things, so i guess it's what the gaming community (DMs/players, what ever) really wants. By the book totally strictly so, or with some wiggle room.
But yeah, I'd like to see a BG played as the scurge of the country side.. heheh
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Post by Munroe on Apr 6, 2005 8:06:06 GMT -5
Humans? Plenty of them. Half-elves? I can only tell by their descriptions that they're not human. Elves? More than enough. Halflings? At seven. Gnomes? I can count two, at least. Dwarves? Definitely more than two. Ok, it was three. Half-orcs? I can only think of one, a female. That rules her out.
That covers the standard player character races. I was under the impression they were the only ones allowed? Bear in mind also that knowing a person is the only one on the server does not mean you know he's the only one in the kingdom or even region, he's just the most likely target if he's the only one your character knows. The world is bigger than just the player characters though. Perhaps it's another creature like him that is an NPC.
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Kharn597
Old School
PCs: Tenchi Yamato; Katha; Danny Tanneseph
Posts: 461
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Post by Kharn597 on Apr 6, 2005 10:15:42 GMT -5
Well the other day I saw DM bassa do a great rp of pvp. Earlier another character had attacked him, and he went back latter attacking the character. Then we rped doing some stuff with the body that has the chance of leading to some other rping. He showed my priest a little bit more how to be more evil and arrogant for the chosen god. Its out there, I just think the evil characters might need a little help being showed how to be evil and avoid authority figures in the game still.
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RPR
New Member
Posts: 42
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Post by RPR on Apr 6, 2005 13:40:16 GMT -5
If i may, just a little opinion of mine:
Sometimes, evil does not mean we have to seek for PvP or do the most barbaric actions. Beeing greedy and selfish may do as well. Mostly for LE.
Hiding the evil nature and trying to keep a low profile while inside a neutral or mainly good society may be a way but bare in mind that RPing this should not mean the evil char acts exactly as a good char. The reactions of this evil char would sooner or later show his true nature. To the same situation, this evil char would react or comment in a different way than a paladin, even trying to keep a low profile. If we RP a evil char, all the time actiing excactly as a good one...I find it very odd, to say the least.
CE chars would be the ones that probably would not even try to hide their feelings or keep any low profile.
In my opinion, evil chars could avoid to remain for long among a place where mainly good prevails as good chars would do the same for where mainly evil prevails. They simply would not feel safe there. Of course, one may try to live in a city as long as it is possible. Like a LE who could seek for a position of power inside the society, trying to comply to the law and use it in his selfish favor as possible. Other evil could be tolerated until one day, a severe crime that may dictate his punishment and fate. A CE would be the most probable evil to create many problems in the society he lives. He would probably seek the most dark and shady part of a city, where he would feel more at home with his ways.
Back on topic, i do agree with the idea that the Paladin would respect but would keep an eye on the char he just detected evil, as long as this evil char would not be commiting some very disturbing crime before the paladin eyes.
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Colds
New Member
Posts: 17
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Post by Colds on Apr 6, 2005 14:00:59 GMT -5
For the -LAST- stinking time just because someone is evil doesn't mean they go burning villagers and molesting their farm animals...wait...strike that. ...reverse it... You know, it's surprising how much fun that can lead to. Me and two friends of mine went around doing something more like it (minus the burning part) ... but I'm not going to go into any details, at least not here. But anyway, that was a different case, of course. It was in the Local Vaults and we did it only because a bunch of berks were playing awful, goody-twoshoes or just awfully done demons. I mean, DEMONS! ARAGHGAHRGAR So, to correct them once and for all, we made our own, more realistic band of fiends and went around doing shockingly disturbing and horrible things. And even though the acts themselves are disgusting, the outcome was hilarious. I love shocking people. But most people don't even play characters like these (unless they're crazy, like me) because of the "evil doesn't go around rampaging!" propaganda that's constantly run. What I'm saying is, that this side of evil has pretty much been erased in NWN. Has anyone done the utterly savage side of CE properly? Or would people fail to recognize it and deem it as bad RP because the community has somehow portrayed the CE as a LE with a lot more violent motives? Wait! I'm not recommending that people go around doing something like this, because you'll probably end up facing the DM's wrath eventually. The only reason we did this is because the Local Vaults have well ... more tolerance ... towards such things. At least in my opinion.
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Post by Occumfresleven on Apr 6, 2005 15:05:58 GMT -5
CE could do something like hire a henchmen, take him out of town, then kill him, then walk around with the guys head on his belt...
Basically a mad man right? Reason I think not too many people can play it is because you'd have to be pretty high in lvl to be able to fight off all the good guys?
Look in our society, the Honorable protectors are glorified, the mad killers, rapists, sadists are gased.
BG should probably be evil only and not LE.
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RPR
New Member
Posts: 42
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Post by RPR on Apr 6, 2005 15:36:46 GMT -5
A CE could do that but they can also live in a CE society. There the order is the "law" of the strongest. Just like an orchist band or most of the drow and perhaps even evil barbarians. They can be crazy and issue to their ways, become unnwanted and end living far from the normal societies or live in their own societies. The leader is chosen by force and taken down by force or when his strong image is destroyed. Sometimes, rules made by their deities may form a kind of order or "law" too. With orcs,usualy Gruumsh and the law of the strongest. With the CE drow, Lloth and the rule of the females by terror and imposing fear, however working to expand the drow domain. Internal fights exist but they fear and respect the power of Lloth so they comply to this deity rules.Lloth accepts sacifices and inspires the "law" of the strogest,the fitted and the rule of the females. (however, i have read that drow can also be NE by now).
A CE evil, in a normal sociaty, that would kill an enchman then bring his head back to town....I am sure he would face the wrath of the town law. However he could do lesser evil deeds and live in the darkest and dangerous side of a city.
Just my opinion.
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Post by Quadhund/Greenhouse on Apr 6, 2005 15:36:57 GMT -5
I dont think chaotic evil even means madman or rampaging killer. They just do what they want, when they want, to whomever they want. Most often times, this means torturing/killing the nearest kitty cat because, well hey, it was fun.
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Misha Aogail
Old School
Player of: Torian Burrfoot, Misha, Whisper, and Oriana Gant
Posts: 324
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Post by Misha Aogail on Apr 6, 2005 23:24:05 GMT -5
Remind me to never let a cat around Hroth...
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Post by Forum Administrator on Apr 7, 2005 3:26:59 GMT -5
This topic was really about how Paladins and opposite Evil view each other, and what tools the players are given in order to roleplay their "sense of evil". As we've already stated, we're not allowing a Detection method as it may easily well up in alot of unnecessary controversy and player arguments. Besides, personally I think it takes away alot of possible roleplay since you wont have to "work" for the knowledge granted you. Anyways, on behalf of the original topic I'd like to ask Kolfrosta to step forward if she's watching this and tell the rest of you how she experienced her fist, and upcoming, encounter with my very evil character Vladislav Boneguard. Would you mind telling the others what happened, Kolfrosta? Cheers, DM Bassa
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Post by Kolfrosta on Apr 7, 2005 6:55:34 GMT -5
Um...sure... Sharita was sitting in her usual spot, the log at the campfire in Isinhold, talking with a few people who were gathered there, and meeting those who were newly arrived. As she was talking, a rather elegantly dressed gentleman came to the fire to warm his hands. He ignored her friendly greeting, sat down and began to eat. She dismissed the slight with a shrug, and continued talking with the others. As he sat there , after finishing his meal, he glared at her, and she began to feel an uneasy feeling, which she had only begun to feel upon his arrival. Glancing toward the man, she caught his glare, and returned her own steady gaze, letting her eyes take in the man, all his features, and all the detail of what he wore. They continued this stare-down until he blinked. He said nothing to anyone, even though others began to ask what he thought he was doing, glaring at her like that. At the last, he smiled, bowed, and left. It was not until his departure that the sense of unease faded. The sense of unease was sent by tell, by the player of the evil character, in this case, bassa. Even though Sharita was not actively trying to determine if an evil presense was near, some evil is just that strong. The only person giving indication where the feeling may be coming from was Vladislav, as he was the only one behaving in a less than friendly manner. And the feeling came and went as he did..... And I'm not going to say what all Sharita did after the episode because, well....that's a story for another thread. Suffice it to say, she has people out looking for more information on this man, as he never spoke a word, thus never even giving his name. She knows nothing about him other than that he is a powerful evil (a very well dressed one), and she wants to know what new threat has arrived..... Now, I can just feel the whole slew of "But you're a paladin, you have to smite evil wherever you find it" being thought to be typed away at this moment. But hold up, different paladin orders act for the same cause, justice and righteousness, but not always in the same manner. As this was in Isinhold, "smiting the evil" would have been a very nice way to actually see the jail from the inside. Not a place high on Shari's "places would like to see" list. As Vlad had made no overt threats against anyone, nor done anything "evil" in her sight, she really had no reason to attack him. And she would be seen as the guilty party who began the attack. There were others standing by. Direct confrontation could have led to the harm and death of others....not something she would want on her shoulders. To protect life is part of her duty as well. Being a paladin of Mystra makes her have to use her head, and find the best possible solution to the problem. Even if it takes some time to find the best possible solution. As only a fool would rush in against an enemy of which they know nothing about, she can be very patient and wait until she knows exactly what she is dealing with, and take the best course of action when it is the right time. Always in a way that is both good and lawful. Of course, crossing paths outside of a town would most likely lead to a direct confrontation.
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Post by Forum Administrator on Apr 7, 2005 9:43:48 GMT -5
In the situation Kolfrosta described above, I simply took an active interest in letting Kolfrosta's character know that something, or someone, was just plain wrong. Something wasn't quite as it should be, in this case the very preference of a single individual.
Instead of pulling judgement and righteousness out of the sleave, things can be accomplished with alot more subtlety rather than just "point -> accuse -> hack".
Thank you very much for playing along, Kolfrosta!
Cheers, DM Bassa
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Post by Grozer on Apr 7, 2005 9:59:25 GMT -5
That event sounds like it was very well RP'd... I wish I would have seen it. I will say though that I tried something like this, subtle hints and feelings, with Ranan a while back (before this thread began actually), it was a newer player, haven't seen that person back since. Anyway, it didn't go so well... the other person went 'hostile' right away and tried to initiate PvP without much RP.
IMHO it really depends on the RP of the players involved. Obviously, this kind of situation can develop into epic RP that continues for some time.
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Post by Talus on Apr 7, 2005 19:45:06 GMT -5
I did witness the event and it was very well RP'd. And yes the Cap'n was the one asking him what he thought he was doin ;D YARR!!!
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Post by Occumfresleven on Apr 8, 2005 2:00:01 GMT -5
good instance, although i find it hard once in a while to find people who are patient for RP.
very well played!
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Post by StabbingNirvana on May 29, 2005 0:15:26 GMT -5
so apparently you cant detect evil from a man thats killed you twice (maybe 3 times), and is always standing behind you while invisible all because hes wearing a disguise? how complex could the disguise be? how could the disguise change the mans evil aura? i sure dont know. ask one of the dms. the one whose name starts with a 'J' and ends in 'CAR' what a load of crap. and thanks for the present. think i might keep away from the server when the dms are on. might lead to turning chaotic (which means no more paladin advancement) and a deduction in levels. and about metagaming? the man spoke. i didnt see any '*disguised voice*' as was stated in a previous thread, so ... i think id deserve my 500 xp back. if anything, it should have been a 50 xp drop. 500 xp is kind of extreme, especially when it takes you half a day to make it.
from the person that plays gial thiceras
PS: i think the person who reads this will know who its been written to primarily
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Post by DM Justicar - Creator of FRC on May 29, 2005 1:56:33 GMT -5
so apparently you cant detect evil from a man thats killed you twice (maybe 3 times), and is always standing behind you while invisible all because hes wearing a disguise? how complex could the disguise be? how could the disguise change the mans evil aura? i sure dont know. ask one of the dms. the one whose name starts with a 'J' and ends in 'CAR' what a load of crap. and thanks for the present. think i might keep away from the server when the dms are on. might lead to turning chaotic (which means no more paladin advancement) and a deduction in levels. and about metagaming? the man spoke. i didnt see any '*disguised voice*' as was stated in a previous thread, so ... i think id deserve my 500 xp back. if anything, it should have been a 50 xp drop. 500 xp is kind of extreme, especially when it takes you half a day to make it. from the person that plays gial thiceras PS: i think the person who reads this will know who its been written to primarily The most hillarious thing about this post is that the paladin who was claiming he could "detect evil" on an "invisible" entity was standing around with a bunch of very very EVIL players while "detecting evil" on the player who was supposed to be his quarry. He was also about to join the evil players in a witch hunt directed by a War Wizard without asking any questions... very Paladin Gial For those who don't know what happened here, let me explain... Our favorite Cyrisist was spotted in Isinhold.. the Purple Dragons and War Wizards dispatched him to the countryside. The Cyrisist then successfully ROLE-PLAYED relieving a Purple Dragon Knight of his post (in disguise) on the road to Redmist. The Purple Dragon proceeded to town to confirm his relief. There he found a mob gathering around the War Wizards and the other PDK's and realised he has been duped. So, a War Wizard begged the mob to help him track down the offending Cyricist. At this time, the same Cyrisist came waltzing back to town, still in disguise, but now as a traveller. So, the mob (including Gial) continued to the outpost that was now abandoned. At this time, half the group proceeded rightfully in pursuit, without metagaming that they had clearly seen the player being pursued in disguise, the other half broke off for other reasons I won't mention. The War Wizard asked the rightful group to continue to the Outpost on the East road (Gial was still with the group) and they were to "check it out" to make sure the Cyrisist hadn't caused trouble there too. Now, at this point, something meta happened, cause Gial comes running back toward Isinhold.. the War Wizard asked him TWICE if he had checked the post ahead and Gial decided he would rather continue back to town (presumably to confront the Cyrisist) than to follow the directions given by the War Wizard. There was still a group who did NOT metagame that were following the lead to the outpost. Another group had broken off for other reasons. At this point, I had to act on the fact that a paladin (Gial) had done two things deeply disconcerting. One, he left the pursuit of a known evil (to metagame), two he disregarded a War Wizards direct command to secure a post of the crown. For this I slapped him with 5 points Chaotic, and a 500 XP loss... Had Gial continued to the outpost (as the others did) he would have recieved (as they did) a 500 XP reward. And a healthy beating from the Cyrisist they were pursuing. And it was all done legally from a PvP perspective. All in all I am VERY, VERY disappointed in one player tonight, and that's the guy who made this post. Everyone else involved played the entire event beautifully, while the one who was supposed to be the Paladin, the higher called chose to selectively metagame and refuse the duty given to him. On a personal note, I am going to call out another instance of "bad form" from you Gial... you are apparently trying to thinly mask or veil who you are aurguing with... come straight with me, I can take it (as the guy whose name starts with a J and ends with a CAR) Anyway, you behaved terribly in game AND on the forums tonight... cheers going 2 for 2. All this coming from a guy who started the event by siding with the evils around him, and then claiming to "detect evil" on a guy in disguise, behind him... while talking to a War Wizard...BRAVO!
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Post by DM Justicar - Creator of FRC on May 29, 2005 2:05:07 GMT -5
According to the DnD source material, they can spot evil after spending so many rounds looking for it, eventually pinpointing it if it is within a certain distance (assuming that line of sight and other variables are discounted). And furthermore Gial... you didn't once claim you were attempting to detect evil. And even if you had, it was ALL around you! Case closed.
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Post by StabbingNirvana on May 29, 2005 6:11:17 GMT -5
p. 44, players handbook 3.5
at will, the paladin can use detect evil as per the spell
p. 218-219, players handbook 3.5
you sense the presense of evil. this amount of information revealed depends on how long you examine the subject. round 1: presense of absense of evil round 2: number of evil auras (creautesm objects, or spells) and the power of the most potent evil aura present. if you are of good alignment, and the evil aura's power us overwhelming (see below) and the HD or level is at least twice your character level, you are stunned for1 round and the spell ends round 3: the power and LOCATION of each aura. if an aura is outside your line of sight, then you discern its direction but not exact location.
smite evil as per the players handbook 3.5. i would pull out 3.0, but its exactly the same. now, here goes.
a) i know the evil characters that were there. b) a round is 6 seconds c) we were standing there for more then a minute staring and waiting for a response d) 5 points towards chaotic without a simple, friendly tell saying 'youre going the wrong way' would have been a much friendlier thing than what was done. e) but the dms are dms f) if i had not read g) the simple instructions wrong h) i would have i) gone to the post j) but h) i was preoccupied i) with having an k) overly angry l) war wizard comment m) and the one character i was able to see n) was invisible o) and when she walked off, she were already in another area where the map indicator would not be on my map p) and i was already in isinhold q) so r) the only anwser s) is to keep off the server t) when youre on u) because v) you would rather scold someone who read certain directions wrong w) and if protesting an act is 'behaving terribly' x) then why not y) go z) the whole way?
now that im done with the alphabet, i could reply on other things. it wasnt metagaming. it was misreading of instructions. you mentioned post, barracks, and all that other classy stuff. i figured you meant the post in isinhold, so i ran there. ofcourse, when we read something wrong and think we read it right, we dont go and reread it do we? no, we continue and <insert certain explicit word that means to have intercourse with> up. lets hope next time, we could use tells.
by the way, the j and car was more of a jest then it was serious.
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