elf/half-elf/rdd?

[soulfien]

2nd edition states in the complete book of elves that a half-elf that breeds with an elf still produces a half-elf on down the line for all generations to come.

If the elven blood is not pure it cannot be elven.

So.... is an elven RDD possible?

Discuss

[iangallowglas]

Interesting. But I believe the question has been answered already on FRC by the precedence of a long term Elf RDD, so I think it has become a moot point.

[highknight]

I thought I had read somewhere that a elf/half-elf pairing produces an elf, whereas a human/half-elf pairing produces a human.

Only half-elf/half-elf produces a half-elf...except for human/elf of course.

For some reason, I remember reading that somewhere....*shrugs*

[The Supreme Watcher]

That's essentially how it works in the Dragonlance universe (Krynn).

All I have to say is... rules get thrown out the window when a dragon starts shagging people. Ho, god.

[EDM Neo]

The "half elf" race that is described in the sourcebook referenced is, I think, one half elven, one half human, the result of a union between one human and one elf (or two half elves, etc etc). In the context of this conversation (where humans won't be mating with other things, like orcs or dragons), it'd be better to call them half humans.

The result of a union between a full blooded elf and a dragon would be an elf with the half dragon template (50% elf, 50% dragon), rather then a half human with the half dragon template (25% elf, 25% human, 50% dragon). I don't think the sourcebook says anything about half elf-half dragons, only about half elf-half humans.

[ancientempathy]

Mar 5, 2010 18:29:59 GMT -5 iangallowglas said:

Interesting. But I believe the question has been answered already on FRC by the precedence of a long term Elf RDD, so I think it has become a moot point.

LOL awesome

Not much to really ponder about on this one that's not been addressed

[soulfien]

So, since it's already been addressed can you point me to where it was discussed?

I brought it up because I've never seen it. Or am I simply to drop it because we have a long term elf/rdd?

I didn't mean to imply our long term elf/rdd should feel threatened by my question.

I've simply seen no 3rd or 3.5th edition source material on this. All I know is that 2nd speaks one way about it.

[soulfien]

Neosanter:

"Although not properly elves, hald-elves are included in this book because they possess elven ancestry. Half-elves have at least half-elf in their blood; those half-elves that breed back with elves are always considered half-elven, regardless of how long ago the non-elf blood was introduced. Those half-elves who do not breed with elves (thus diluting the elven strain even further) are considered by elves to be totally non-elven. These crosses have none of the abilities normally associated with either elves or half-elves."

Like I said, I was simply curious about 3rd edition rules on this.

[rhjmas]

Mar 5, 2010 18:29:59 GMT -5 iangallowglas said:

Interesting. But I believe the question has been answered already on FRC by the precedence of a long term Elf RDD, so I think it has become a moot point.

... which came as quite a shock to me (the player) upon discovering him. Then again, I'm not really a FR lore junkie so I just rolled with it.

[EDM Entori]

Mar 5, 2010 18:52:27 GMT -5 @highknight said:

I thought I had read somewhere that a elf/half-elf pairing produces an elf, whereas a human/half-elf pairing produces a human.

Only half-elf/half-elf produces a half-elf...except for human/elf of course.

For some reason, I remember reading that somewhere....*shrugs*

You are correct

[EDM Entori]

Mar 5, 2010 18:04:43 GMT -5 @soulfien said:

2nd edition states in the complete book of elves that a half-elf that breeds with an elf still produces a half-elf on down the line for all generations to come.

If the elven blood is not pure it cannot be elven.

So.... is an elven RDD possible?

Discuss

edit: I just read through, again and kind of understood a bit, more. your asking a about the half dragon template. I think my post still applies though so game on:

I think so without any source just pondering..

RDD occurs when there is in some situations dragon blood somewhere in the family linage . That blood is spured to take hold by magic..(thats what I've been told by rdd's and source).

so if you want to go back to when dragons ruled everything, see the short story in Anthology of the elves. Dragions mated with everything.. and even so.. Dragons can look like elves, and elves are exactly sticklers for only 1 lover. Monogamy is not their strong suit. So I would say if something like this passed into the elven line, it would probably go undetected, or in a case of the Fey'ri casts, a house purposely melding with demons to make themselves stronger.. whos to say what they tried before that? Remember RDD's from my knowledge, claim just a very tiny amount of dragons blood. (the dragon can be hundreds of years back) So It's not exactly unlike to the point of Impossible.


Now I actually toyed with this concept and making a elf, gold dragon. or copper. RDD

But the issue I ran into RP wise is the willingness to be something other then corellons children. Would be very complicated and very alienating RP, At least from other elves, well Perhaps not wood elves or open minded moons. But it would get you some odd looks. the Sun Elven communities of old, Cormanthor, Evermeet and Everseka would probably look at you like an abomination. Or at least in how I see it rped. Willingly driving the magic in your blood to spur a evolution or mutation into a creature which your not.

In and Amongst Elves in Faerun, who've lived in Faerun a very long time... I would say it's not unlikely there is Dragon blood somewhere. Especially with both species being such long lived.

Edit:

I may of missed something with the original topic, does one need to be pure race for RDD?

[Munroe]

My understanding of a half-elf is that an elf with a half-elf produces a half-elf and a human with a half-elf produces a half-elf for quite a few generations before the traits are completely gone.

I don't remember now where I got this impression but as soon as I see it again, I'll be sure to note it.

[kaltorac]

The FR Players Guide to Faerun states that the "Races of Faerun" Book was created anticipating the 3.5 rules and is therefore a valid referrence still.

Quoted from PG5:

"Recent Books: Races of Faerûn and Unapproachable East anticipated most of the changes in the v.3.5 revision, and actually came out after the revision of the D&D core rulebooks. You should be able to use all the material from these three sourcebooks without difficulty, although Chapter 1 of this book presents some minor updates to regions and regional feats fi rst released in Races of Faerûn and Unapproachable East.

Soooo .....

Races of Faerun has this to say on PG 58:

"Half-elves have at least one elven parent or grandparent, or two half-elven parents. To put it another way, the child of a half-elf and a human will be human, unless the half-elf parent was the child of a full-blooded elf. Unless a half-elven line marries into other elven or half-elven families, their elf characteristics fade in a generation or two. On occasion elven traits can reappear in otherwise human children born several generations later, but half-elves of such remote descent are very rare."


My own two lions worth:

As for any race with dragonblood in their veins, all the sources mention "traces" of it as the reason sorcerers, bards and RDDs exist. Nowhere is exactly how much or little a "trace" of dragon blood is measured, but I'd think anything over 1 percent would count as a trace and that's between 6-7 generations with no crossbreeding with others that share the trait. In the case of elves, that could easilly be that their dragon ancestory began 3500+ years ago easilly. If you factor in "breeding back", 20-50 generations removed from the original half dragon blooded ancestor is not impossible either, though rare. And my claculations quantify a trace as 1 percent or more. If you take it literally and set no lower limt, then the bloodline reaches on near infinitum.

The 2E source originally mentioned could also be open to interpretation. It states that those not of full elven blood are "considered" half elven. So you could also translate that as any non-pure blooded elf is tainted, IE a half elf as far as societal pressures relate and not mere genetics.

Other sources that discuss elven lineage also mention that many old noble houses in days long past actually sought interbreeding with dragons and later demons and devils as a means to increase their magical powers. Researching the various Crown Wars will bring up many such references. Such matings were never considered "half elves" though. Only matings with humans are defined as such.

[Munroe]

Mar 6, 2010 1:34:53 GMT -5 @kaltorac said:

Races of Faerun has this to say on PG 58:

"Half-elves have at least one elven parent or grandparent, or two half-elven parents. To put it another way, the child of a half-elf and a human will be human, unless the half-elf parent was the child of a full-blooded elf. Unless a half-elven line marries into other elven or half-elven families, their elf characteristics fade in a generation or two. On occasion elven traits can reappear in otherwise human children born several generations later, but half-elves of such remote descent are very rare."

Ah. That would mean that anyone with a full-elven grandparent is still a half-elf. But it would be possible for a "human" to have a full-elven great-grandparent. (And a half-elven parent and half-elven grandparent.)

[828stingstingneo]

Mar 6, 2010 10:47:27 GMT -5 Munroe said:

(And a half-elven parent and half-elven grandparent.)

IF the half-elven parent is NOT the child of a full-blooded elf

[Munroe]

Mar 7, 2010 9:31:59 GMT -5 828stingstingneo said:

Mar 6, 2010 10:47:27 GMT -5 Munroe said:

(And a half-elven parent and half-elven grandparent.)

IF the half-elven parent is NOT the child of a full-blooded elf

Right, that means the half-elven parent would have to be the child of a half-elf (who would be the grandparent).

[Savoie Faire]

It seems logical to me that the child of an elf and a dragon shapeshifted into elf form would be an elf until he did something to change that. He's not a half-anything, he's just an elf with the potential to become a Dragon Desciple. He then passes that potential down to his descendants.

Half-dragons, on the other hand, would be hatched from a dragon-egg rather than born. This would be in such cases as a pregnant elf shapechanged into dragon-form before giving birth or a dragon who got pregnant in elf-form and reverted to dragon form to lay her eggs.

This whole subject is rather difficult for me, as it is my opinion that the level of magic required to produce either kind of mixed heritage offspring would make such unions impossible in all but the very fewest cases. There should be, mabey, two such mixed bloods on the face of Toril at any one time.

Obviously, these are my thoughts on the subject rather than cannon, so don't take them as anything else but my opinion.

[828stingstingneo]

The wording also causes me to believe a human could have three half-elven grandparents who in turn each had one full elf parent. No grandparent is full elf. No parent is full elf. So he'd have 3/8 elf in his geneology but would still be human whereas a half-elf could have one full elf grandparent with only 2/8 elf in his geneology.

[soulfien]

Mar 7, 2010 14:01:30 GMT -5 Savoie Faire said:

It seems logical to me that the child of an elf and a dragon shapeshifted into elf form would be an elf until he did something to change that. He's not a half-anything, he's just an elf with the potential to become a Dragon Desciple. He then passes that potential down to his descendants.

Half-dragons, on the other hand, would be hatched from a dragon-egg rather than born. This would be in such cases as a pregnant elf shapechanged into dragon-form before giving birth or a dragon who got pregnant in elf-form and reverted to dragon form to lay her eggs.

This whole subject is rather difficult for me, as it is my opinion that the level of magic required to produce either kind of mixed heritage offspring would make such unions impossible in all but the very fewest cases. There should be, mabey, two such mixed bloods on the face of Toril at any one time.

Obviously, these are my thoughts on the subject rather than cannon, so don't take them as anything else but my opinion.

No, because they're not really elven when they are shapeshifted. A dragon who is in elven form still needs to eat an amount to satisfy its full dragon form. Also seeing as how True Seeing sees through the shapeshift, I'd hardly call it full elven.

[kanrath]

Half dragons are not born by an egg, either the dragon stays in its humanoid form for most of its life giving birth to the half dragon child or the humanoid parent does. The shape change is an innate magic of older dragons, and does not change ones dna, only how one looks, there for a child in time would no matter what without arcane/divine intervention show its heritage.

Also where does rdd get off giving people wings, not even half dragons, unless large or bigger, get them.

Im thinking

[Munroe]

Mar 13, 2010 12:27:11 GMT -5 kanrath said:

Also where does rdd get off giving people wings, not even half dragons, unless large or bigger, get them.

Im thinking

The Dragon Disciple class does grant wings as a benefit of the class at level 9, which is BEFORE the dragon disciple acquires the half-dragon template at level 10. It doesn't get the wings for being a half-dragon, it gets the wings for being a dragon disciple.

Note also that half-dragons may not pursue the path of dragon disciple. The prestige class requirements forbid it.

Any child born of anything and a dragon would have the half-dragon template UNLESS the dragon mates with another dragon or the dragon mates with something that instead applies a template to the dragon offspring. For example, a demon and a dragon would produce a half-fiend dragon, not a half-dragon fiend.

[Savoie Faire]

Mar 7, 2010 16:18:22 GMT -5 @soulfien said:

No, because they're not really elven when they are shapeshifted. A dragon who is in elven form still needs to eat an amount to satisfy its full dragon form. Also seeing as how True Seeing sees through the shapeshift, I'd hardly call it full elven.

This is entirely my issue with half-blood dragons in the first place. I should have said polymorph instead of shapeshift, but even so your point remains valid.

The same argument could be made for elf sorcerers, as it's D&D cannon that sorcerers derive their power from draconic heritage. Should all elven sorcerers be required to be half-elven as well?

Cannon allows for dragon-blooded PC's, and this is the world we have, like it or not. An elf can become an RDD as easily as a half-elf, dwarf, or hin. The character undertaking the RDD path draws upon faint traces of draconic heritage to change his physical form into a more draconic form, and this includes wings. (It should include a tail too! Far fewer PC's would make the change if they had to wear that NWN dragon-tail all the time.)

[EDM Entori]

Mar 13, 2010 13:11:53 GMT -5 Savoie Faire said:

Mar 7, 2010 16:18:22 GMT -5 @soulfien said:

No, because they're not really elven when they are shapeshifted. A dragon who is in elven form still needs to eat an amount to satisfy its full dragon form. Also seeing as how True Seeing sees through the shapeshift, I'd hardly call it full elven.

This is entirely my issue with half-blood dragons in the first place. I should have said polymorph instead of shapeshift, but even so your point remains valid.

The same argument could be made for elf sorcerers, as it's D&D cannon that sorcerers derive their power from draconic heritage. Should all elven sorcerers be required to be half-elven as well?

Cannon allows for dragon-blooded PC's, and this is the world we have, like it or not. An elf can become an RDD as easily as a half-elf, dwarf, or hin. The character undertaking the RDD path draws upon faint traces of draconic heritage to change his physical form into a more draconic form, and this includes wings. (It should include a tail too! Far fewer PC's would make the change if they had to wear that NWN dragon-tail all the time.)

It was my opinion that sorcerers do not only derive their powers from magical bloodlines, but Any magical bloodlines. Elves themselves have an innate connection with the weave. Fey, as well, divine beings, hellish beings. All can innately draw upon the weave. Really anything with "innate magical abilities.".

Not saying Elves do, but from cannon Elves do have a bond with the weave, that is more then the average, human. Some believe that to be the source of their long life.

I always just thought the elven sorcerer was one who could of grown up around a place of power, a fey mound, cross roads, where the weave is more active and found the weave at more ease, then their brethren wizards.

Consider wizards, if it was all a matter of study and nothing else, I would think them more common, I believe even for wizards there needs to be the innate connection. "showing signs at early ages" etc.

[Munroe]

Mar 13, 2010 13:11:53 GMT -5 Savoie Faire said:

The same argument could be made for elf sorcerers, as it's D&D cannon that sorcerers derive their power from draconic heritage. Should all elven sorcerers be required to be half-elven as well?

It's canon that some sorcerers draw their powers from draconic heritage. In Forgotten Realms, there are also sorcerers descended from genies. The history of enslavement of humans at the hands of genies in Calimshan is why sorcerers are less welcome there than wizards.

[catmage]

There are feats and source materials that show that sorcerers can gain their power from fiendish, celestial, fey, genie, even aberration blood. It wouldnt be much of a stretch to assume any outsider capable of breeding with mortals through natural or magical means could found a line of sorcerers. I also recall reading some pre-Warlock sourcebook effectively stating that a sorcerer need not even have gained his power through being related to such a creature, but via a pact with such an entity made either by the would be sorcerer or by their ancestor. But that may be something I didn't understand properly.

Also, dragons need not remain in their assumed human form to produce half dragons. There is a sourcebook that mentions a female blue dragon producing half dragons that hatch from eggs. Dragons of Faerun, mentions male blue dragons using female hobgoblins as breeding stock to create a line of servitor half dragon and draconic hobgobs, so it's cannon to show that a half dragon need.

Most dragons do not have the innate ability to assume an alternate form, and no chromatic dragon has that innate ability, even though source material would seem to indicate that they, in particular red and blue dragons, are the dragon group most likely to produce or want to produce half dragons in sizable numbers.

The perverse curiosity I have involves Song Dragons. All Song Dragons, including the males, have the innate power to assume the form of a unique human female, and source indicates that many, if not most, spend the majority of their time in human form. The natural assumpion would be that the alternate form of a male song dragon is functionally sterile, but there is no source material that confirms this one way or another that I have found.

Lastly, I would LOVE for Taihaer to gain a dragon tail at the end of his transformation. Something that can wag and potentially cause property damage/tripping that he couldn't be fully blamed for? Can we say fun times for a worshipper of Hlal?

[Samej]

What's with all the arguing; all you need for this situation is the clever use of a Punnett Square.

[EDM Entori]

Mar 30, 2010 20:24:54 GMT -5 Samej said:

What's with all the arguing; all you need for this situation is the clever use of a Punnett Square.

Except a punnett square deals with 2 traits specifically of the parents, and if their dominant and recessive.. oh I'm pretty sure I missed Genetics in the FRCS. LOL

I give you kudos for your wacky science however.

[dirtysloth]

actually I don't think the square works for this
it would suggest that two half elves hae a 25% chance of having a full elf 50% chance of a half elf and 25% chance of full human (or other non elf)
of course I'm a bit out of practice in the crossbreeding mathematics

lets see if I can make a square for demonstration

_______________ elf __ l __ human
------------l-----------l----------------l
elf ---------l __ elf ___ l ___ half elf ___ l
------------l-----------l----------------l
dragon -----l _half elf _ l __ half dragon _l

this of course is a cross between a human half elf and an elven half dragon
I'm pretty sure that's a punnet square and it just don't work like that
may be fun if it did though

(yes I know its a crude square but its simple and amused me)

[Savoie Faire]

Take that back a few generations, assuming each draconic descendant breeds only with pure-blooded elves and it looks like this:

1st generation: Elf + Dragon = 1/2 dragon and 1/2 elf
2nd generation: Elf + 1/2 Dragon = 3/4 elf
3rd generation: Elf + 1/4 Dragon = 7/8 elf
4th generation: Elf + 1/8 Dragon = 15/16 elf
5th generation: Elf + 1/16 Dragon = 31/32 elf
6th generation: Elf + 1/32 Dragon = 63/64 elf
7th generation: Elf + 1/64 Dragon = 127/128 elf
8th generation: Elf + 1/128 Dragon =255/256 elf

At what point does the draconic heritage become insignificant? Yet even 20 generations or more down the line a character can, through use of powerful spells and such, draw upon his latent draconic heritage to innitiate the change to RDD.

[828stingstingneo]

Mar 7, 2010 14:43:50 GMT -5 828stingstingneo said:

The wording also causes me to believe a human could have three half-elven grandparents who in turn each had one full elf parent. No grandparent is full elf. No parent is full elf. So he'd have 3/8 elf in his geneology but would still be human whereas a half-elf could have one full elf grandparent with only 2/8 elf in his geneology.

Hrm, also I think I was wrong here. In the 3/8 elf scenario I was thinking of both parents would be half-elves; therefore, their children would be half-elves. I guess the most elf a human could have would be 2/8 if his half-elven parent is a second (or more) generation half-elf.