Unconventional vs. Conformity

[ancientempathy]

Ive read recent posts that contained statements of traditional approaches of a race and/or class and I've read other statements on how players like unconventional means

So why not try to start a good natured thread on this, to discuss?

What makes the chaotic dwarf strange from the lawful one? Go! (Dwarven socities have old and deep-rooted, structured traditions and customs)

What makes the evil elf so strange? Go! (One that likely doesnt follow the Seldarine)

I could list a few of source examples on the above. Dwarven Battleragers come to mind on the first, and a certain infamous evil elf NPC on the second, that lives in Waterdeep.

Whats bad and good about the unconventional approach and conventional approach? State me your pro's and con's on both sides if you can! Should players conform to the overall communities needs, or should the community be willing to accept new ideas and developments? Should change be feared?

Go!

*readies the fire extinguishers*

[austrogoth]

I'll bite.

What I objected to in the other thread was the idea that "you're doing it wrong" if you go unconventional. Faerun is a huge place, and it's pretty civilized all things considered. That is, there are massive cities, kingdoms and "other" with much trade and travel between them. I don't think it's unreasonable to think that, with all of these different cultures and races sharing knowledge, there would be some who seek out vocations that are against the stereotype for their culture or race.

I kind of think of it like an American who grows up in the Midwest and decides to, say, move to India and learn the language and become a Yoga guru. It's an unusual and difficult decision, and most of their friends and family will probably think they're crazy, but it's neither unprecendented or impossible. The same might go for a dwarf who decides to leave the mines and become a druid because he feels a calling. It's extremely rare, yes, but once in a million dwarves it might happen.

(And really, the Salvatore and other D&D based books that we all love are filled with characters who break stereotype... Including a dwarven druid.)

Remember also that we're all adventurers more or less, which means we are the weirdos and outcasts who left our homes and cultures (often thousands of miles away) to go travel the world killing monsters for treasure. In most cases that's already an unusual thing to do, as most citizens of this world probably stay pretty close to where they were born. I don't see why it's unreasonable to think that many of these adventurers will want to learn things that members of their culture/race don't normally pursue. Or worship a strange religion, or drift into a different alignment because of his experiences, or whatever.

All that said, I still think most characters should more or less gravitate towards their cultural stereotypes... And if they don't, they should have a great explanation as to why they're different. I think collecting lore resources is also great, I just don't think a stigma should be placed on those who break it.

Let's also be honest here- if someone is a talented and creative RPer, they'll do well whether playing a perfect example of their race or someone who breaks the mold. If someone isn't very good at it they'll suck at both.

[Charon's Claw]

Dec 28, 2009 20:29:46 GMT -5 austrogoth said:

All that said, I still think most characters should more or less gravitate towards their cultural stereotypes... And if they don't, they should have a great explanation as to why they're different. I think collecting lore resources is also great, I just don't think a stigma should be placed on those who break it.

I agree with this. That's all I'll say for now though.

[soulfien]

Just to dip my toe into this pool, There is a shrine to Silvanus, a human God in the city of Evereska... which is so highly elven that most non-elves have never even heard of it- nor will ever hear of it.

It's more a secret to non-elves than Evermeet is.

So not all elven elves follow the Selderine.

[soulfien]

Here is a link to Evereska and the druid and ranger human deities that have shrines there.

[The Supreme Watcher]

I think that I pretty much covered how I feel on this in the other thread, so it's time for a copy/paste.


Making a character that follows traditional values does not create a 'mirror copy.' Educating oneself on traditional values of each race and class does not mean one makes stereotypical characters. I would suggest that possessing a greater understanding of the race and class you intend to play will provide you with a great deal more customization than arbitrarily picking a race/class/stat/skill/feat combo. Too many characters played as humans with pointy ears, or short alchoholics, and one begins to be dismayed with the state of an entire race of players.

This is similar to what happened with evil characters. Too many people ruined others' fun, and now evil is nearly unrepresented on the server. Imagine if too many elves were stale, or too many halflings. Would 'uniqueness' be as respected in such a case? I think not. It is necessary to respect or adhere to player races' norms, for otherwise, we are left with nothing but pointy-eared humans, short drunks, tiny speedfreaks, and big, burly, green fighters.

Class, race, and alignment should always be considered the basis of your character. They are the building blocks utilized to forge a personality, a backstory, world views, desires, etcetera. When creating a character, arbitrarily picking race, class, and alignment based on their mechanical advantages is counter-productive to immersible roleplay, and results in the aforementioned cliches.

It is true that there are exceptions to every rule, and as such we are not reprimanding people for making said exceptions. We are merely suggesting that players look into their race's norms and cultural standards to better understand the gravity of their character's uniqueness - how he or she will relate to others of their race, how people of other races will observe the character, etcetera.

Edited a bit, and smashed two posts together. Thanks for reading.

[EDM Entori]

Dec 28, 2009 20:47:36 GMT -5 Charon's Claw said:

Dec 28, 2009 20:29:46 GMT -5 austrogoth said:

All that said, I still think most characters should more or less gravitate towards their cultural stereotypes... And if they don't, they should have a great explanation as to why they're different. I think collecting lore resources is also great, I just don't think a stigma should be placed on those who break it.

I agree with this. That's all I'll say for now though.

I agree here too.. and it was kinda of what I was saying.

If your character breaks the incline then you should have damn good reason why.



the thing is .. it's rare.

and it always comes up that "adventurers are odd and that, that gives us rights to create insanely amount of un-traditionalist type characters".. now I'm not against it. nore am I say you do it wrong

what I am saying is that when people DO do it wrong, they really really do it in a sort of fashion that they don't understand why it's so odd.

why an evil elf is so strange:


(start rant)

Elves learn to cherish life, cherish individuality and cherish each other in love and peace from early age. I would take elves as those that aspire to their elders, and while we have an elf or two that break source in source.

Kelbren blackstaff or Elminister in Richard Baker (or Richard lee Bryrars..I am away from home) The summoning. States "isn't damn well unheard of for an elf to betray their own".

now thats paraphrased and not source.

However, given the statement it's not a "an elf wouldn't be evil." clause, it is just a insight to the fr world, and that elven ideals are often very far from such at the very least a misguided elf.

could do evil things thinking they were helping their cousins.

-------------------------------------------------

Another point people have a hard time RPing is AGE, 120 years is not 18 comarable to a human.

if your 120.. you've seen alot, and you've spent most of that around your own. you at least, know of elven ways in a most basic form.

Elves learn in the whome you see.

So if a elf grew up away from home, they would know language, (perhaps fragmented, how to walk, talk, and most likely of the seldarine)


SO Maybe evil is a stretch, but a betrayer is a often roleplayed quality that is VERY rare, in the time FRC has existed I've seen many. when it should be few.



And Before I get on about worship of human gods, (elves respect all gods of the woodlands thus my reason for silvanus shrine in everseka)

Ask yourself.. would a human worship a elven god?

see how weird that is? I feel it's just awkward coming up with reasons why they would do so.

theres one Cormyrian related NPC in source that had a big impact with elves, and their bloodline.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Conformity.

I hate conformity and I think I've been misunderstood. I would not like 100 Corellon following robots.

but if people play a cultural unknown and they have no idea of the cultural norm... their in a real tough spot to RP I wouldn't touch it with a ten foot pole.

Now I would think people should research a path before they take it.

but limiting the human minds creativity to a sourcebook always seemed odd to me. But at the end of the day for rules on FRC or whats handled in most dm events, source is the status quo.

I would love to do things and imagine things more without the big cage source gives to me, but the question is, what dm would give me the ok for something that is outside of source.

nothing against them they need to keep control of roleplay, or be able to divise where a player is going with what they see (which is much easier with source)

Creativity shouldn't be caged, and I'm really not barking up the no evil elf tree.

nor am I barking up the comformity tree, I like:

IMMERSION

and when people break our immersion with impossible rp it gets annoying. we've seen it get out of hand with non dm approved events in the past such as raising undead, or elf bonds.

it's also hard to steer them in. So AE I'm not out for conformity and I wish to god I could portray my intentions better in words.



P.S.

Just because we play NWN doesn't mean we're all adventurers.

Not all characters dive into duengons or should fit that stereo type. Because a dwarf picks up an axe to aid his people, a human a sword, or an elf a bow to stand to defend their people. (in the capacity we as players can)

does not make us adventurers. Entori is not an adventurer in my mind, it was an elf who changed his life and lived a path that was on the edge, but he was never driven by gold or glory or any of the stereo typical adventurer stuff.

[EDM Entori]

Dec 28, 2009 23:03:36 GMT -5 @soulfien said:

Here is a link to Evereska and the druid and ranger human deities that have shrines there.

is this source, candle keep is not often source material


edit: under religion it says all elven dieities, I think the shrine is out of respect personally but I do not know.

[soulfien]

Well, I don't currently have the convenience of paying $40 for the book myself.

But the point is, humans do worship elven deities just as elves worship human deities.

We do have half-elves, do we not? The crossover does happen. It is perfectly immersive to have an elf worship one of the human woodland deities and still cherish everything that is elven.

That is not a big stretch. I remember Radu wanting to join Earalewiel in the Selderine and being told that could never happen.

Whether or not that is true, it does point to a very valid immersive reason for a human to worship an elven God.

[Edit]... Now, I wouldn't expect an Avariel to follow a human God. Heck, they're so xenophobic they are rarely seen by elves as I always understood it.

Most humans think they are myths.

[minion]

and now everyone knows why i don't play elves. the 2 year degree i'd have to take in Elfology not to get crap for how i RP my character isn't worth my time or effort.

[Lokarn]

While playing the stereotypical behavior pattern for a race can have it's fun, I prefer to twist that "standard" and make my own character.

The thing is, each person gets to decide how far from the norm they will slide away. Just because you yourself have seen many who chose to slide far, doesn't mean they have. For instance, Maybe someone has played your average garden variety elven archer on every server, and PnP game they have ever played. Now they join FRC and decide to go away from what they had known forever, just to keep interested or whatever reason they have.

To this person, and there will be a lot of instances of this, they "have" stayed fairly average, and now, they are playing something they does not conform.

I think this is what many people get to see on a very old D&D online game. Thus so much non conformity.

IMO you simply can't equate source PnP archetypes to a persistent world server.

1. In a PnP game you will top out at about 5-6 players and one
DM. So you see less... goofiness maybe 1 will be an outcast in
that play group

2. People will create as many characters as they want till they
are blue in the face in a persistent world, where you can level
faster, or slower than a friend. The more characters one
creates... the higher the likely hood of them choosing
something odd that becomes fun.

Also, and here is a big kicker.... most NEW players to NWN have NO clue what D&D is besides some game with bad graphics that's really old and worth a quick thrill for $19.99.

[EDM Entori]

Dec 28, 2009 23:31:50 GMT -5 @soulfien said:

Well, I don't currently have the convenience of paying $40 for the book myself.

But the point is, humans do worship elven deities just as elves worship human deities.

We do have half-elves, do we not? The crossover does happen. It is perfectly immersive to have an elf worship one of the human woodland deities and still cherish everything that is elven.

That is not a big stretch. I remember Radu wanting to join Earalewiel in the Selderine and being told that could never happen.

Whether or not that is true, it does point to a very valid immersive reason for a human to worship an elven God.

[Edit]... Now, I wouldn't expect an Avariel to follow a human God. Heck, they're so xenophobic they are rarely seen by elves as I always understood it.

Most humans think they are myths.

thats a whole new can of beans..

Elves on love


Elves idealize the concept of romantic love as much as humans do, if not more so. Songs, stories, and poems are dedicated to this powerful emotion in every generation. Nevertheless, to elves, love is more frightening than it is to humans because loving another enough to share one’s whole life means giving up a measure of the independence that elves so value. Thus, although the concept of love fascinates the ever-curious elves, most are in no particular hurry tofind and embrace it for themselves. Courtships between elf couples are generally long, often lasting for decades before the partners commit to marriage.

Paradoxically, elves often find it easier to commit to long-term romantic relationships with humans than with other elves. The fifty years or so that such a union might last before the death of the human partner is nothing more than a pleasant interlude for the elf—no more than the time it might take to produce an artistic masterpiece or learn a new craft. Remaining focused on a single partner for that amount of time is relatively easy for an elf and allows him a greater understanding of the lives and thought processes of shorter-lived races.

A marriage between elves, however, is a centuries-long commitment that is never undertaken lightly. Light flirtations and even long-term dalliances between elves are more common than actual marriages. Children produced from such informal arrangements bear no stigma because new life is welcome in almost any elf community, whatever the relationship that produced it.

Though elves reach physical maturity at 25, marriages almost never occur at such a young age. In practice, elves less than 100 years old are considered too young for marriage and are strongly discouraged from considering such a permanent arrangement until they’ve had a few more decades of experience to understand themselves. No parental or clan consent is required for courtships; an adult elf is free to associate with anyone who accepts his attentions—even someone of another race. Elves almost never have arranged marriages because such a concept is diametrically opposed to their ideal of individual freedom.

An elven marriage ceremony can take many forms. Though it is often a ritual celebrated before the entire community, it can consist simply of two elves speaking the words that bind them forever with no witnesses except the trees and the grass. Most elven weddings are officiated by a priest of whatever deity the couple deems appropriate (most often Hanali Celanil, but sometimes Corellon Larethian). The two elves write and speak their own vows, and the priest uses their own words to seal the union. Thus, an exchange of vows amounts to an exchange of life essence that forever bonds one to the other. Dowries are not usually exchanged unless the marriage is of considerable political import, though gifts to the newly wedded couple from the community are common.

Though elves rarely fall out of love with one another and almost never remarry after the death of a spouse, they often do spend time away from one another as a means of refreshing the relationship. Such “vacations” from one another keep a marriage fresh and vital by allowing each partner to grow independently of the other.

Outsiders often mistakenly believe that elves have little love for family, friends, and community because they may leave home for years at a time to follow their own desires. However, while elves are undeniably self-centered, they usually harbor deep-seated affection for their families and friends. The extent of that affection can be seen in their willingness to let go and trust that their loved ones will return to share more time with them. Indeed, when an elf who has been absent from his community for an extended period decides to return home, little can stand in his way, and the joy of his loved ones upon his return is boundless indeed. Celebrations extending for weeks often surround the return of a long-absent member of the community, who doubtless has many tales to tell of his travels. Such stories serve to enrich the understanding and the lore of the entire community.

the only thing this doesn't touch on is the Stigma..

Elves have a great stigma for half elves.. they call them "breeds" or bend an ear at them is great insult.

There not considered kin, and those elves that love humans are often on their own or at the very least looked at strangely. Because an elf might have an "50 year " interlude with a human.. but in that time if the elf is in love, they will see the test of time and the human will not.

think highlander, the tv series. to live for 1000 years you could have as an elf, (give a life span of 50) 2 partners a century

thats alot of heart break. Half elves are not premitted in evermeet, unless they have reached the same understanding of any other human thats touched the green isle.

so would you create a being, whos parent will not be around? (child) or watch your significant other die in 1/10th of your lifetime? or someone that is a fraction of your age.

the Elven long veiw is also a contributer.

Yes we do get half elves, but it is somethng not done lightly, or done too lightly as a resort of youthful elven adventurers, and a good night in the bar


Now with regards to cross paethon worship.. you have to convince the paethon that your loyal and loving. Which for a human or dwarf worshiping the seldarine.. well (you'd have a long way to go) but any non elf that dies worshiping the seldarine will appear in the afterlife as an elf, as their soul was in life.

the closest example i have, is magius, with the minor acception of his worship of mystra, this character had a deep respect for elven ways.

[catmage]

Power of Faerun page 116 explicitly states that clerics and other followers of non-human gods, particularly gnome and hin gods, do in fact attempt to convert humans to the worship of their pantheons. I'd say that means that Garl Glittergold and Yondalla both want humans in the flock. If hin can worship Tymora and gnomes worship Gond, why can't an avariel worship Baeravan Wildwander ("Faster than Chicktika Fastpaws!") and a human turn to Hanali for success with the elf of his dreams? One of the two primary actors in events of the draconic pantheon is also considered to be a human goddess. Deities are always after more worshippers, and when the majority of their racially inclined charges are praying to you, you have to branch out, and humans being as varied and as numerous as they are, they make primary targets for conversion.

Half elves are more than a little common in any realm where humans and elves have regular contact, in particular the realm of Silverymoon, and Aglarond's Yuirwood. Races of the Wild states that half elves are almost always accepted with great joy by elf parents, and are only viewed with suspicion where elves are, such as in Tethyr and Sembia.

There's a notable precedent for evil non-drow elves, one a former Black NEtwork operative, one a famous scion of an elven noble family. I can pull more examples from source.

Remeber that source often will not come straight out with what is true, only what is perceived to be true. Most of our real world culture supposedly encourages positive values, and many people still go bad. Elves are perceived as primarily good, but all races have their black sheep, and many of them are going to be adventurers, until they find a place to hide out.

If you desire to have people try and remain closer to source, I suggest being as obsessive about 3.0 and 3.5 material as I am, or AE or HH or Munroe. Which is why I vow to hunt down AE and make his copy of Lords of Darkness my own. The ones that get me are clerics that know the god they're following, and espouse concepts antithetical to that god. Now, if it's someone who's from the Anarouch worshipping Shandukal as an evil deity, and in fact getting his spells from Beshaba, that's another story, since it's canonical for deities to trick clerics and other devout folk by granting them spells when the actual deity is either dead, non-existant, or considers that follower to be in violation of the deity's standards. There's at least one paladin/blackguard that considers himself to be in the service of Tyr, but is in fact an agent of Cyric, and there's a source book with a character that can be adapted for FR that still believes she is doing Corellon's work, even though Lolth is the source of her magic.

So, to say that the number of evil elves is unimmersive, or the dwarven druids are suprising(More than one dwarf god supports druids, same for gnomes and I believe halflings), is not entirely fair.

[Slanker]

Way I see it, we are not here as community to build a proper world of Faerun that would make those that wrote source material proud (at least I am not). We are here to play and have fun with fictional and fantasy based characters. Anything can happen, long as it remains in the realm of possibility (and unconventional is within that realm imo), properly backed up with a persons own idea of a background story. So, with that in mind I would say:

Conformity
Con:
- boring, you would end up with a clone army and this aint Star Wars
- my fear is people who are less read up with source material taking (well ment) criticism from others how they are doing it wrong and how it should be according to books, even if it's all well ment
- policing a player's character, judging them if they are fit according to source

Pro:
- having a conventional racial community, like those elves in the Hullack, can enrich the server long as it doesn't dominate.

Unconventional
Con
- risk of people taking their bg story a bit too far and into the world of Looney Tunes
- people taking well ment criticism from those that do believe FRC should be more like source material

Pro
- A person has the right to come up with his own ideas (be it conventional if they choose so or not)
- A lot more 'surprise based' rp (not sure how to put this), but with unconventional ideas come unconventional and surpising rp, which can take chars into directions they never saw coming

Hmm...reading this back, my biggest issue is that people are telling other people how to behave and act. Which just isn't right, under any circumstance. And that is, in my very humble opinion, exactly what happens if you expect people and point out to them to follow source material.

[kaltorac]

the only thing this doesn't touch on is the Stigma..

Elves have a great stigma for half elves.. they call them "breeds" or bend an ear at them is great insult.

There not considered kin, and those elves that love humans are often on their own or at the very least looked at strangely. Because an elf might have an "50 year " interlude with a human.. but in that time if the elf is in love, they will see the test of time and the human will not.

think highlander, the tv series. to live for 1000 years you could have as an elf, (give a life span of 50) 2 partners a century

thats alot of heart break. Half elves are not premitted in evermeet, unless they have reached the same understanding of any other human thats touched the green isle.

so would you create a being, whos parent will not be around? (child) or watch your significant other die in 1/10th of your lifetime? or someone that is a fraction of your age.

the Elven long veiw is also a contributer.

Yes we do get half elves, but it is somethng not done lightly, or done too lightly as a resort of youthful elven adventurers, and a good night in the bar.

Wow! ... You're painting ALL elves with a pretty broad brush here Entori and you seem to be picking only what you wish from many of the sources. Example:"Elves have a great stigma for half elves.. they call them "breeds" or bend an ear at them is great insult." ... this is a gross exageration actually. While some elves do certainly feel this way, not all or even the majority of them do. Not all half elves are the product of youthful indiscetions as you'd lead us to believe either. Many elves actually envy humans and the other "young" races. They envy their passions and ambitions and overall zest for life. Half elves do carry stigmas, but it will often depend where they were born and raised as to what the stigma is. Most elves would feel pity for their half-blood kin due to their shortened lifespan, but rarely more than that. Moon, Wood and Wild Elves are generally far more accepting of half elves than Sun Elves are though. Temperaments and views amongst elves also vary from city to city and region to region. Elves living in the harsher northlands of faerun are more open to half elves and other races.

So .... if you're an elf from Evermeet ... then most of what you've posted I can't refute. But, you never mention that. You repeatedly use the term "Elves" as if the view you put forth is wrote for all. It's not.

As for the shrine to Sylvanus in Evereska ... regardless of the source (Candlekeep in this case), there are elven followers of Sylvanus in Faerun. They know of the Seldarine and do not deny their existance, but they do not always follow the Seldarine. These followers of Sylvanus are usually Wild Elves and the odd Wood Elf. They believe Sylvanus is the embodiment of the old totem spirits of the Yuirwood that their ancestors worshiped. Though the different FR sources vary, many suggest that the old gods/spirits were replaced by both the Seldarine and Sylvanus. If you look up Sylvanus in the FR Faiths and Pantheons you'll notice the following as well. Worshipers: Druids, woodsmen, wood elves

Now some snippets from FR Races of Faerun.

Moon Elves, Relations with Other Races:

Of the elven subraces, moon elves are the most tolerant of nonelves.

They travel extensively, and a moon elf can expect to
interact with hundreds of different races throughout her life.
Moon elves find the diversity of Faerûn’s races to be intoxicating
and forever surprising, and they especially value theinsights of other races because they often think of things no elfwould ever consider. This openness and willingness to acceptnew ideas is regarded as foolish and dangerous by other elves, so ironically their own kin often give moon elves the coolest receptions.

Despite their open minds, moon elves have little patience or
interest in the various evil beings, and they hold orcs and gnolls
in particular contempt. They avoid regions where such cultures
hold sway, although moon elf adventurers often infiltrate these areas to spy on them. The moon elves share with the other elven
subraces a hatred and loathing for the drow.

** Does that sound like the paranoid xenophobicic uptight elves you've portrayed?

Moon Elf Deities:

Moon elves worship the Seldarine. A moon elf identifies with all
the elven deities, but usually chooses one as a patron deity above the others. Unlike their sun elf cousins, many moon elves worship the elven deity Angharradh, who they believe to be a melding of the three goddesses Sehanine, Aerdrie Faenya, and Hanali Celanil. The moon elves view her as equal in power to Corellon Larethian, who is often regulated to the status of a consort. Moon elf religious ceremonies are exuberant, joyful, and loud. Even deeply religious moon elves recognize that some ceremonies and festivals are simply excuses for revelry.

**Whoa ... elves that put other gods above or equal to Corellon .. OMG!

Sun Elves, Relations with Other Races

The sun elves feel affection for the moon elves, although this
affection is often unintentionally patronizing. They fear that
their moon elf cousins are too flighty and irreverent, and they
strive to help them return to the proper elven path with stern
lectures and fatherly advice. They admire the wood elves and
feel that they embody the elven spirit of nature. Relations are
good between sun elf and wood elf, although the reclusive nature
of the wood elves makes direct contact rare. Sun elves are a bit
puzzled by the wild elves, and hope one day to civilize them.

Aquatic elves are thought of as near-equals, and the sun elves
believe that their water-breathing kin were placed in the world
to bring to the seas what the sun elves bring to the lands above.
The sun elves deeply regret the sufferings of the avariels, and
occasionally send out explorers to seek out avariel aeries and
offer them a place on Evermeet.

Sun elf prejudice toward other races (humans in particular)
can be quite severe. Many sun elves won’t even deign to speak
to a human and would rather leave a dying man to meet his fate
than to save him. This attitude is somewhat understandable,
given the way humans have historically treated the sun elves
and their lands, but it wins the sun elves few friends among their
human neighbors.

If there is one race that the sun elves hold in absolute contempt,
it is the drow. They view the dark elves as abominations
and insults to the Seldarine, and often attack these hated enemies on sight. As word of the drow invasion of Cormanthor
begins to spread through Evermeet, it is likely that more and
more sun elves will return to the mainland, if only to bring war
to the drow and force them from the ruins of what sun elves
still consider their lands.

** Now we know where you get your information The D@#$ed haughty, arrogant Sun Elves:P

5th paragraph of the general info on Sun Elves:

Of all the elven subraces, sun elves are the most arrogant and
haughty—even more so than the avariels, whose haughtiness is
rooted in pity for the landbound races. Sun elves believe that
they are the true elven race, the builders and the leaders of the
elven realms, and that the other elven subraces fail to live up to
the solemnity and dignity of their ancient stock.

**Sounds just like most of your posts.

Wild Elf Deities

The wild elves worship the Seldarine, in particular Rillifane
Rallathil, but this worship does not approach the regimented,
organized structure of the other elven subraces. Rather, the
green elves worship individually when the urge takes them. They
commune constantly with a pantheon of nature spirits, each
representing an archetypal member of an animal or natural
phenomenon.

** Some FR sources hint at Rillifane and Sylvanus as being the same being also.**

Wild Elves, Relations with Other Races:

The green elves do not seek out relations with others, and they
do their best to remain unseen and unknown. Nevertheless, wild
elves have been known to interact with adventurers, explorers,
and lost travelers. Usually, these people are captured, their memories magically erased, and then let go somewhere far from the tribal lands. Rarely, the elves allow a wanderer to visit their
camp, usually in times of dire peril when they are forced to call
upon outside aid. Those who manage to impress and even
befriend a tribe of wild elves find that their friendship is strong
and loyal, and such individuals are often gifted with wild elf
tattoos or spirit animals.

**Reclusive though not the haughty creatures many think all elves are.

Wood Elf Deities

Wood elves worship the Seldarine, but they hold a special respect
and reverence for the ancient forest powers of Faerûn, Silvanus
and Mielikki. Among the Seldarine, the wood elves hold a particular reverence for Solonor Thelandira, the Great Archer, and
Rillifane Rallathil, the Leaflord. Solonor, as the deity of archery
and the hunt, is viewed as the special patron of the wood elves,
and before battle a wood elf will often invoke his name.

**Noooooo! More elves that don't worship JUST the Seldarine ... *feints*

Wood Elves, Relations with Other Races:

In the five hundred years since the fall of Eaerlann, the wood
elves have been forgotten by most of the other peoples of
Faerûn. Only those humans and dwarves native to the North
and familiar with the borders of the High Forest have seen
copper elves, and even then, they most likely met a solitary
hunter or ranger. While the wood elves shelter deep inside forbidding forests and are therefore inaccessible to their neighbors, they are ironically among the more compassionate and understanding of the elven subraces. Like the moon elves, they accept the power of humankind and seek to live alongside their human neighbors and guide their expansion instead of seeking ways to deter or intimidate the human lands.

Wood elves have a long history of cooperation with the shield
dwarves, whose realm of Ammarindar stood alongside their own
realm of Eaerlann for many centuries in the vale of the Delimbiyr
River. By extension, they look favorably on most other dwarves, too. Gnomes and halflings are both greeted as friends and potential allies. On the other hand, the wood elves have a cold place in their hearts for creatures such as orcs and gnolls, who bring axes, fire, and slaughter to the forests the wood elves have sworn to preserve.

**Now why would they snub half elves if as stated they seek to live in harmony with humans?

Not to pick ONLY on you Entori, but your posts have been the dominate ones I'm addressing. If you replace Elf/Elves with Sun Elf/Elves in 99% of your posts then I'd have no issue. But, as I've shown ... from the sources ... MOST elves are not as you portray them.

[qewaye]

I think my biggest problem right now is not people being unconventional but cliches.

I am not against unconventional(I admire Amara who has rightly been cited as a great example of an unconventional elf)...my problem is that I often meet elves in Isiolith's capacity as a foremost member of the traditional elven community - and I can guess their background before they've even told it to me....usually a mass of cliches I've seen a dozen times before.

Too many elves have been orphaned/grown up in human care/follow different Gods for it to be true. One of the Hullack clan used to joke that the chances of meeting a Seldarine-following elf in Cormyr was about the same as the Regent marrying a half-orc.

In the bid to be "different" or create an interesting story, some people take it too far. I'm not against unconventionality but I'd like to be faced with believabilty..you don't have to be an elf expert, I'd just love it if you knew some very basic things and created a credible character.

And, there's nothing wrong with being normal!

The ordinary can be extraordinary. The greatest true stories I hear in the world are about normal people who become heroes every single day from a police officer who sacrificed his life to help keep drivers from a flood to a man who witnessed a rape and helped catch the rapist(after which he gave his reward money to the victim).

These are ordinary people who conform to the laws of the society and traditions they believe in, does it make them dull, bland clones? No. Neither does your normal character have to be.

Anyway, I'm not ragging on anyone...my point is, it's what believability you bring to your character that counts.

[qewaye]

kalbaern - holding a special reverence for human deities doesn't necessarily mean or equal worship, Isiolith has expressed massive admiration for Silvanus, even been blessed by him - but she still follows an elven deity.

[Slanker]

Dec 29, 2009 6:00:04 GMT -5 @qewaye said:

I think my biggest problem right now is not people being unconventional but cliches.

Can't the same be said of conformity as well?

Dec 29, 2009 6:00:04 GMT -5 @qewaye said:

Anyway, I'm not ragging on anyone...my point is, it's what believability you bring to your character that counts.

This sums up pretty much how I feel, believability. And letting players try and achieve this however they like.

[mythosfakir]

On a related and possibly selfish note, I'd like to point out that creating a character who is "unconventional" is awesome and fine - I highly recommend it. However, I have myself encountered more than a few characters who were so "unconventional" that they truly were unbelievable - and yet, they stood right there before my character. Defying, everything that he and I knew of lore and the campaign setting, and the only thing I could think was: "How the hell do I rp with *that?!*"

Keep in mind that a large part of this game is your interaction with others. Your stories influence theirs and so on, so when they encounter something that clearly defies not only the campaign setting and the established lore but also common sense...it puts the player in an uncomfortable and awkward position.

[ancientempathy]

I'm gonna make a general post here - not directing it to anyone

The term cliche can be applicable to both the unconventional and the conventional. Most are aware of this. Overtime FRC members have used this term a lot, and I just don't think it's a good term to use. Doesn't really serve sound justice when its applicable to all sides, and quite a fair amount to each. In short, cliches are there and are on both sides, and simply wont go away.

The above paragraph is stated with complete neutrality and without any negative or positive innuendos, but simple concrete fact/logic...Well, from my perspective ;D

Now to take a stance regarding cliches...Here's my thoughts on it

If you dont like the persons roleplay, then go away from them. You are not obligated to make your character believe another characters' statements, either. We're here to have fun and not at anothers expense, so who are we to deny a persons "silly" ideas when we can simply move along, right? Its along the lines of worrying about yourself, but to not shun/talk down another either.

I'm going to pull Qewaye's post into thought now and touch in on something she said and apply it to my experience for an example:

Once upon a time, a new adventurer (meaning no more than level 5) comes along (elf, probably CN) and starts to claim that they know the Shadow Weave, but serves Mystra to fight agaisnt the dark forces of Shar. Believable...?

Well, in forgotten realms it is possible - its something to be taken with a grain of salt, sure. Did I believe it? Nope, for reasons to be mentioned. I think they were addressing this to Gorstag at the time, whose a redneck, and didn't really understand such things. As a player I didn't like the roleplay and I didn't want my character exposed to it. Am I wrong in this?

So I simply had Gorstag walk away...Said he had some business to take care of and that it was good talking to them, and wished them good health. I waited a few minutes and then, feeling this to be the best approached, sent a reasonable tell to the player stating, "I just wanted to give you a heads up that DM's are not fond of players roleplaying the use of the Shadow Weave." That's why I didn't believe in the roleplay.

Note that I never tryed to lecture them on if their elf was following Mystra and that they were combating the dark forces of Shar. That's their business - the Shadow Weave is declared taboo use on FRC however. The player in turn said "Thanks for the heads up," and has since not been on FRC.

This was back when I first joined the server, and it was this person who prompted me to pour forth countless information into the Lore of the Lands section you see today, consolidating the information, etc.

Did this person seem rather unconventional to anyone?

Tell you what from my perspective - Shadow Weave part aside (as its just not possible on FRC to use it), I say - nope!

An elf out of a major metropolis, like Waterdeep, could easily grow up following Mystra and combating Shar. Regardless if the bugger knows of the Seldarine or not and of elven traditions is an entirely different field altogether (overall personal lore). To a conventional elf though (traditionalist) - it may seem unconventional to them.

I feel I should have made a more clear disclaimer when I began the quest on posting large amounts of information on the Lore of the Lands boards:

The information the Lore of the Lands provides is for both the unconventional and conventional character to put to their constructive use. Knowledge in its raw form is neutral, and therefore has no sides.

Roleplay - The performance of a picked position to act and portray.

The conventional (traditionalists) should educate themselves on the fact that their exists unconventional things. The unconventional should educate themselves on the fact that there are conventional (traditional approaches). Prepare yourself for the role you choose to pick up because, you've an audience behind the screen looking to be entertained. Just do your best, and if you're a little lost - then swing on by my PM box for assistance.

There certainly shouldn't be any hate or animosity between the 'two factions'. If you can work together (if you like the roleplay steming from the interaction), then by all means...stick to it. But if you dont like it, you're not obligated to stick around, nor have your character even register what is going on. Just remember to keep civil and to play nice.

At the end of the day I always pick up the unconventional role to play. Of course I educate myself to be prepared for characters that are more based on traditional approaches (so if I make a LG person come out of the Nelanther Isles, I should probably look into the lifestyle of those Northlander folk and their general mentallity, which is far from Lawful). Good thing for any new member of the community is to overview a communities needs too; more precisely what some taboo's may be. I state this in a good natured manner - I believe one of the biggest taboo's on FRC is having an uneducated player - which is reasonable, but I ask folks to not be hard on the noobs, take things with a grain of salt, aid others, and be patient with how they handled such things.

Not all are source fanatics like myself and a few others. And yet again I state - if you dont like the roleplay steming between a player and yourself, then you are not obligated to adhere to the information at whats being presented. As long as they're not breaking any other rules...then just...have your fun, be civil, and relax

[EDM Neo]

I think everyone can probably agree that a healthy balance would be good. There's a lot of middle ground between "EVERYONE MUST CONFORM" and "STEREOTYPICAL CHARACTERS SUCK."

There's nothing wrong with having characters who break the mold... adventurers are unique, unusual people. At the same time, it's certainly in everyone's best interests for players to have a familiarity with the source material and the campaign setting's norms. This helps to find ways to make those unique character concepts believable.

There's nothing wrong with playing a "standard" character; the archetypes got to be famous for a reason, they work well and can make for interesting, entertaining characters. At the same time, there's no need to stifle creativity and limit more unusual characters, as long as they can be done in a believable fashion.

If someone's uninformed about the setting, or just plain a bad roleplayer, it will show whether they're playing an ordinary CG elven ranger or they're playing a LE elven Banite. The best thing to do in either case is to just deal with it and help nudge them in the right direction, whether ICly or OOCly.

[828stingstingneo]

As someone whose main character is a cliche elf raised by humans, I want to point to this thread as containing good examples of the reason for it. I know about elves from what I've read in the Player's Handbook and also various fantasy books such as Tolkein. When I started this game I was a n00b with regards to the peculiarities of the Forgotten Realms setting, however. The fact that people who know a lot more about Forgotten Realms than I do can post here and still debate the question of how a conventional elf should act just shows me that it's impossible to really know. I do try to play my character in a believable way, but I don't have a lot of solid fact to work with. I am constantly frustrated by the contradictory information I get. Forgive me for being unoriginal, but the only believable RP I can do is that my character is as ignorant and confused as I am. Then I'm still going to get flaq for this being unbelievable and cliche?! I'd be all for more closely following convention if I ever make another non-human, but only if everyone can actually decide what that means. For now, sorting out that truth is about as frustrating as trying to sort reality from conspiracy theories.

With this in mind, I think we should all be more accepting and encouraging toward players who come into the game with less knowledge than we have, or different knowledge than we think we have. If we made less of a big deal over whether a traditional elf should welcome or shun a half-elf, more people might want to try the traditional role.

Also, is it really so unbelievable that in a world filled with monsters and other dangers there would be orphanned travelers found by other races? I don't think so, but probably experts on Forgotten Realms source could debate it for ten more pages of posts. *mutters about using amnesia as an excuse next time*

[Rook]

I've debated whether to weigh in on this discussion or not. First off, these are my own thoughts and don't represent the DM team. Secondly, nothing here is meant as attack on anyone. To be honest, I don't DM on the server enough to notice what's going on. I spend my time scripting instead.

To begin, I don't want to dictate what a person can or can't do beyond the rules we already have (subrace restrictions, for instance). As long as a person plays a PC that is reasonable and believable I'm fine with it.

I want to counter the idea that conformity is boring. I think it is far from it. Conformity does not mean creating carbon copies of everyone else. We could have a dozen dwarf fighters and each one be different. There is still a lot of freedom in the personality, skills, feats, and background you give your PC. Conformity to source gives you a potentially richer background to build on. for instance, a "typical" elf wizard or ranger from the High Forest has a lot of source material to draw from. You can use that material either at the beginning or over time to add depth to your PC. Being a conventional PC may also mean you are more likely to find a like-minded community to join, therefore conformity may create more RP opportunities for you. So don't shy away from normal. It doesn't have to be boring.

That said, I do appreciate unique PCs that are unconventional. Yes, we can all point to novels that contain unconventional characters and they are fun to read. I'm sure the authors found them more interesting to write about. I assume some players find them more interesting to play for the same reasons. A few unconventional PCs liven up the server. But if everyone is unconventional than I would worry about the immersive, "realistic" atmosphere we are trying to create and maintain. One or two dwarf druids is great, but if they significantly outnumbered the dwarf fighters what then? Would it start to feel more like bizarro world and less like Forgotten Realms? And yet I don't want to choose who can play a dwarf druid and who has to play a dwarf fighter.

Finally, conformity to a typical race/class/deity doesn't guarantee a believable PC. I once met a human fighter that, at level 1 or 2, RP'd his PC as being a general of some large army to the north. When prodded with a few simple questions it became apparent that the PC just wasn't believable. Being believable usually means starting humbly and working your way toward greatness. Give your PC room to grow and evolve and learn over time. It's more fun that way.

[ConcreteSequential]

There have been some good posts and quite a bit of information here, but after reading through this thread, there's one thing missing. The unseen population of Cormyr.

Our PC's are a micro sample of the larger population around us. Even though as players we may get the impression that there are too many oddballs, that's more of a player concern than a PC concern. Our PC's only represent what we control, they don't count the myriad of unrepresented NPC's that make up the nation of Cormyr, the Oghrann Clan, Hullack elves, etc.

If the same lack of consideration was given to the invisible population by killing someone in Isinhold and saying "no one saw me", we'd say the player was metagaming. Though it's unintentional, I think the same thing is happening here in regard to the relative percentage of oddballs vs. normal population. It's the nature of the beast that we tend to notice what's in our faces and sometimes forget the rest of the picture.

This isn't a slam or dig toward anyone, rather it's a perspective that I think has gotten lost in the sauce of discussion of PC's without regard to the rest of the world around us.

[Vortex]

The post above is a good point and one I use with Alindariel when she tries to explain Elven society to humans. When others point out all the oddball PCs that don't match this representation she says, there are exceptions, mostly those that have been corrupted by human and other outside influences.

[ancientempathy]

Everyone has been making pretty good posts so far, which is great

And yeah, I do agree with Concrete there...The unrepresented NPCs catches a lot of people in the ass, at no one's fault normally

[soulfien]

My druid doesn't fall into the two categories I'm seeing here.

1. An elf who was raised by elves and worships the Seldarine

2. An elf who was raised by humans and worships a human Deity.

Glenduil was born and raised in Evereska, decided to follow his heart and his calling and become a druid, and out of respect and adoration of Silvanus, one of the primary druid deities, he took him on as his God and began his path.

How's that for uniqueness

[soulfien]

Also, I believe it was Monroe who stated that humans can be accepted into Arvandor and they take on the appearance of elves when they arrive.

I could be wrong, but I am pretty sure it was Monroe who said that.

If I'm wrong, no mis-quote was intended to Monroe.

[Charon's Claw]

*Beats Munroe to it*

Munroe.

[The Supreme Watcher]

Ooh, we're discussing our characters now?

When I made Garum Glandash on FRC, I intended to make a Paladin. However, I tested the water with my Pen and Paper character, Kalak, and decided that I wasn't ready to play a Paladin on such a server. What I decided to do, was to create an easily believable PC: a human fighter, specifically, a sellsword. I chose LN as his alignment, because I didn't think the DM Guide's example of a CE mercenary would be playable by me.

Through the years I've played Garum, and the trials and all I've endured with him, I believe he's become more than the sum of his parts. I've endowed him with a distinct personality, distinct emotions, and as time moved on, indistinct goals and needs. As his in-game world evolved, so did he, although he stayed true to his original concept, even reverting to that standard springboard when I am unsure of how to approach a situation, or when he is in such emotional distress that he cannot function (it's happened a couple times).

When I came to FRC, I didn't believe I was a good enough roleplayer to roll up a Paladin. I have since created that Paladin, and you all see him quite often, but through my use of a conventional template (human mercenary fighter), I created an unconventional character (Garum Glandash). He is my most beloved character of all time, and the greatest fun I've ever had with any character. He is as much the reason I stick around as the other players here.

I know many people haven't had interactions with my characters as of late, due to my numerous small breaks, but I feel like I have made a mark on those I have had interactions with. Whether they approach Garum as suspicious due to his occupation, welcoming due to his personality, or have deep-seated conflicts with him, I believe that Garum has blown away anyone's preconceived notions of what he was... all without defying the original concept and outlook: Be the best, be loyal, be honest, and always profit.

In these small ways, I took my Level 1 LN Fighter of Tempus, and turned him into a a complex creature, more than the combination of his stats, but with his stats rooted deep enough in his concept that they are just as much a part of him as his love of booze, friendships, or ravenous appetite for flapjacks.

Perhaps this sheds some light on ways that a conventional character can break the mold, I don't know. It helped me a little bit.