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Post by Bobbertto on Jun 22, 2005 15:40:04 GMT -5
Hello, just thought I would give a clarification on invisibility spell to those that make the mistake of 'seeing' someone in game, when in fact, they are invisible and don't see them at all..
QUOTED -- "The creature or object touched vanishes from sight, even from darkvision. If the recipient is a creature carrying gear, the gear vanishes, too. If you cast the spell on someone else, neither you nor your allies can see the subject, unless you can normally see invisible things or employ magic to do so. Items dropped or put down by an invisible creature become visible; items picked up disappear if tucked into the clothing or pouches worn by the creature. Light, however, never becomes invisible, although a source of light can become so (thus, the effect is that of a light with no visible source). Any part of an item that the subject carries but that extends more than 10 feet from it becomes visible, such as a trailing rope. Of course, the subject is not magically silenced, and certain other conditions can render the recipient detectable (such as stepping in a puddle). The spell ends if the subject attacks any creature. For purposes of this spell, an “attack” includes any spell targeting a foe or whose area or effect includes a foe. (Exactly who is a foe depends on the invisible character’s perceptions.) Actions directed at unattended objects do not break the spell. Causing harm indirectly is not an attack. Thus, an invisible being can open doors, talk, eat, climb stairs, summon monsters and have them attack, cut the ropes holding a rope bridge while enemies are on the bridge, remotely trigger traps, open a portcullis to release attack dogs, and so forth. If the subject attacks directly, however, it immediately becomes visible along with all its gear. Note that spells such as bless that specifically affect allies but not foes are not attacks for this purpose, even when they include foes in their area. "
Now this is not a rant or anything like that I only wish to improve roleplay. Some do it, I used to do it too. If someone is see through then you CAN not see them... only hear them... If someone hears you, when invisible, you appear see through... meaning they know where you are, and can attack you, but don't know WHO you are. Standing with in 5 feet of an invis person, means you -auto- hear them.
Basically, it comes to this. If someone comes up to you while invisible, say for instance, Raven Rift, as he does this often. You do not SEE them only HEAR them.
This useful information was taken off Estium server and I thought I'd share it to give some a better understanding.
See you all in game. - Bobbertto
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Post by Quadhund/Greenhouse on Jun 22, 2005 16:32:11 GMT -5
Hmm ... that clarifies things. I always wondered why people would appear if they got to close to you ...
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Post by Retired DM Gallin on Jun 22, 2005 16:35:50 GMT -5
That is quite useful, thank you for the clarification Bobbertto!
~Gallin
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Post by hoffman900 on Jun 22, 2005 20:37:17 GMT -5
I'll add, the invisible individual can be smelled and felt all the same. A body moving in a sudden way will displace air. And an animal such as dogs *will* smell it and bark in its direction. Also point out the old bag'o flour trick that might somewhat reveal the outline for a moment and most certainly the footsteps.
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Post by DM Richard (Retired) on Jun 22, 2005 20:42:47 GMT -5
All of which will allow you to attack the individual or otherwise find the direction they are in, but not know who the individual is except in very special circumstances. The post was started because of people thinking they "see" the person therefore they know who it is. Correct?
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Post by Bobbertto on Jun 22, 2005 20:56:38 GMT -5
Righto.
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Post by soulfien on Jun 24, 2005 10:59:50 GMT -5
Invisibility is severely flawed.
When someone is creeping along using stealth and you make your listen check, you can hear them far away.
Yet with Invisibility you can't hear them unless you stand next to them.
Also, if you have a very loud enchantments you should be able to hear them as well from far away.
So that's why I roleplay that I can see the person if I'm standing next to them... kinda balances it out. Say they have 5 loud and bright enchantments with a couple lightsources. You don't see the light or hear the enchantments until they appear next to you. Then everything suddenly comes into view and hearing. It's then that you can see them in my opinion.
I really wish Bioware had spent more time in the coding.
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Post by Keetena on Jun 24, 2005 11:25:02 GMT -5
Sorry soulflein, but this isn't a correct interpretation, the person still continues invisible, there is spells to this, like see invisibility, but you can't see anything invisible without the aid of something like this. you'll just hear, if the game has some flaw in this, it's not fair make such balance! I'm certain almost all here can say the same, and roleplay as well, just sensing something about... but not seeing something that IS invisible. Or you wish to see when Keetena changes clothes while invisible? LOL
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Post by soulfien on Jun 24, 2005 11:57:43 GMT -5
Well, if she's changing clothes while standing next to me then I'd pretty much know what she's doing
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Manshin
Old School
FRC2 Build Team
Posts: 703
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Post by Manshin on Jun 24, 2005 12:34:56 GMT -5
I agree with Keetena on this one. Ivisibilty makes you invisible, so you cant see such an enspelled person, even if they are standing on your head. If you want to RP some sort of justification for this, then pretend invisibility also dulls sound a bit... maybe from the waste down. Heh. You cant invent rules that contradict what everyone eles on the server is doing, otherwise one guy would be forced to pretend they dont see, while another pretendes he does. Not fair. On the other hand, perhaps smell could have something to do with it when someone is very close. People do have distinctive smells, especially vain Sunites with their fancy perfumes. There probably should be some sort of accepted opposing rolls for this. Like, Higene vs. Nose-fu. heh.
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Post by Booze Hound on Jun 24, 2005 14:16:55 GMT -5
Vind smells too, a lot like a wet animal...comes from snuggling with the wild things too often. ewwww...
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Post by Keetena on Jun 24, 2005 14:34:09 GMT -5
Yes Manshin, those who don't bath usually are easy to know, as well as vain sunites with fancy perf... did I misunderstood or this was about me? LOL
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Post by soulfien on Jun 24, 2005 18:16:41 GMT -5
You cant invent rules that contradict what everyone eles on the server is doing, otherwise one guy would be forced to pretend they dont see, while another pretendes he does. Not fair. Actually, that's what we do with true seeing and stealth. Stealth was coded very badly. Originally called "hiding in shadows" it is now called stealth. Hide and Move Silently. True seeing can see through it all as a way to balance it out. Otherwise a rogue with loud enchantments and a light spell could walk up to you, push you aside, tie your boot laces together, and you'd never be able to attack him because you don't know anyone is there.
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Post by DM Richard (Retired) on Jun 24, 2005 18:24:08 GMT -5
Invisibility means a person can't be seen unless you have see invisibility or true seeing active. They can be detected but NOT SEEN there is a huge difference!
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Post by Mr. Baboon on Jun 24, 2005 19:08:24 GMT -5
Yep... unless you do what I do, and cast Invisibility/Silence, then really? You can be heard.
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Post by Bobbertto on Jun 24, 2005 21:44:16 GMT -5
Yes invisibility you cannot be seen at all, even if you have loud wards on your character, everything that the invisible person touchs turns invisible, including wards/enchantments/whatever... Stealth mode works like this.
If someone beats you're Move Silent with a Listen roll, they obviously hear you right? but do not know who you are or what you look like because they did not see you, only heard.
If someone beats your Hide skill with a good Spot check, they see you, and depending on if you're disguised, how far away you are, etc. they will see you and probably know who you are and/or would get a brief description of you.
But how do you know which one is which for NWN? Simple. If you hear the hiding person they will appear transparent, while if you spot them you will see them completely.
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Post by Booze Hound on Jun 25, 2005 1:03:09 GMT -5
oh neato...I didn't know about the transparent/full view thing with Stealth. cool, thanks!
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Post by MithrilBlade on Jun 25, 2005 3:54:20 GMT -5
Still it's possible to recognize someone you know well if he/she comes next to you invisible from the voice (breathing, any possible coughing and stuff) and perhaps tracks (yes you will leave tracks behind even if invisible).
Still in general if someone stands invisible next to you it would be very hard to tell who the person would be.
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Post by Munroe on Jun 25, 2005 5:06:09 GMT -5
Just a clarification on this: 1. If you hear someone stealthed, they also appear see through. You can only really tell if they are invisible or in stealth by examining them to determine if you can see them or not if you look at them. 2. Improved Invisibility only grants concealment after you attack something. You still appear see through but you're not completely invisible, you're partially concealed. The only way for another character to tell the difference is to examine you. If you're invisible you have the Invisible icon and the Concealment icon but if you're only concealed then you only have the Concealment icon.
So far as I know, this is the only way engine-wise you can tell if you're looking at someone invisible, in stealth, or concealed.
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C'tair
New Member
Today is the first day of the Rest of Your life... Not Much to look forward to, is it?
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Post by C'tair on Jun 25, 2005 7:03:13 GMT -5
If someone beats you're Move Silent with a Listen roll, they obviously hear you right? but do not know who you are or what you look like because they did not see you, only heard. huh, and what kind of special ability is this, that let's you hide in the middle of a room without any cover? you can be pretty sure that if you fail your move silent check, the person who hears you will look at the source of the sounds. if you're standing behind his back, he will of course have to turn around to see you. it's not like move silent grants you any comouflage.
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Post by Keetena on Jun 25, 2005 8:21:34 GMT -5
Still it's possible to recognize someone you know well if he/she comes next to you invisible from the voice (breathing, any possible coughing and stuff) and perhaps tracks (yes you will leave tracks behind even if invisible).
This makes me wonder... how Batman has a secret identity until today? LOL Obviously this isn't so easy...
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Post by Spooks on Jun 25, 2005 10:34:32 GMT -5
Well three things aid batman in keeping it a secret...
A.) He is filthy rich... and can afford a a mask which is custom fit and doesnt show anything he doesn't want shown...
B.) He avoids social interaction with people whilst in costume.
C.) He doesn't have "Bruce Wayne - Uninjured" floating above his head.
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Post by Talus on Jun 25, 2005 10:38:16 GMT -5
Well three things aid batman in keeping it a secret... A.) He is filthy rich... and can afford a a mask which is custom fi and doesnt show anything he doesn't want shown... B.) He avoids social interaction with people whilst in costume. C.) He doesn't have "Bruce Wayne - Uninjured" floating above his head. *Snicker* *chuckle* *Snicker* *Chuckle*
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Post by Keetena on Jun 25, 2005 17:30:43 GMT -5
Well, I can consider invisibility better than a mask, I don't know any character who cast invisibility so poor that can't buy different clothes, that are invisible anyway, and Batman has a fake life as a playboy milliardary, but I still think that this values as invisibility anyway and in other hand about the uninjured bar he has scars anyway enough to let any masoquiste ashamed... but I do think this isn't in case cause opens another discussion that I really don't wanna see, LOL Note: Really Bruce Wayne is the mask of Batman, really really the Begins ROCKS!
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Manshin
Old School
FRC2 Build Team
Posts: 703
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Post by Manshin on Jun 29, 2005 16:51:12 GMT -5
Maybe people on FRC should start trying to hide realistically? I am certainly guilty of walking around right in front of people while invisible, but perhaps I shall start standing behind objects and the like. Now, in real life, much of stealth is based on perception. It is possible to stand right out of the open and for a person to walk right by without noticing. Oddly enough, the human brain creates over 90% of what you "see" when in familiar areas from memory. So if you hold very still, and someone is going about their business, chances are, they wont see you unless they look right at you. Still, walking around and making noise is a differant story. As for silence and invisiblility, well, as I understand it, silence is a globe effect spell. Perhaps if you are "detected" with a silence and invisibility spell, it means that the fella you are sneaking on who "heard" you actually detected you some other way. Examples would be, as mentioned above, smell, or perhaps he happened to be watching a chirping bird that suddenly got quiet dispite it is still singing noiselessly. Or maybe you kicked a rock out of the silence globe that started to make noise once it got outside your effect area. There are many ways one could be alerted to your presense. Rather than getting mad at the liimited tools we all have to work with, find clever RP soulutions to them. After all, RL is random, why should NWN have to be limited to the same black and white rules we are accustomed? Also, smell is very highly underated. I can recognise almost everyone I know by their smell alone. It has nothing to do with hygene, everyone has their own faramones, and smell is the most closely attached sense to memory, meaning we recognise smells more readily even then sights. Granted, they would have to be close for that manner of detection to occur, but it should be an avenue for RP detection. If someone becomes visible behind me for example (meaning I spotted him/her) I may RP that I smell them if they are close, since I am obviously not looking at them.
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Post by soulfien on Jun 29, 2005 18:02:51 GMT -5
You can detect someone who is using a silence spell not by what you hear, but by what you DON'T hear. Silence is just that- silence. If someone casts a silence spell and steps close to you- all sound stops. It's like you just went completely deaf.
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C'tair
New Member
Today is the first day of the Rest of Your life... Not Much to look forward to, is it?
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Post by C'tair on Jun 29, 2005 20:43:13 GMT -5
we should remember that this is just a game and we should not make it more painfull by pretendig to do something more realistic to cover it's inabilitys. there are always things that you can't see because they weren't placed there. a city like redmist has surly more population than just the 30 NPC's that run around in the streets. if you hide in the middle of the street, you can explain it by hiding in the crowd. another thing is the camara ankle. in RL we don't see things from above. it would be easyer to sneak around when people were all playing with the ankle adjusted to fixed view from behind. no one would see anything that happens behind his back, but this would make the game simply unplayable. my point was more, that i'm not going to accept complaints about the (meta-)game engine, like 'you can't see me because [...]' even though i can see him. i don't care if i would rather have smelled him or whatever. if someone appears on my display and is in my area of sight (means not behind me), i will take the liberty to act like i know about it IC. what i make of it through my RP may be more aimed at realism if possible. if you don't want to be discovered while invisible, simply don't get close to other players. the hill giant brawler won't discuss this point with you as well. feel free to disagree. regards
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Post by DM Richard (Retired) on Jun 29, 2005 22:51:15 GMT -5
A few points I want to make about your post Ravenna.
"there are always things that you can't see because they weren't placed there. a city like redmist has surly more population than just the 30 NPC's that run around in the streets. if you hide in the middle of the street, you can explain it by hiding in the crowd."
True but only to the extent that you can hide from some people, but others are certain to see you. The more people there are the more of a chance you were seen by someone. How they react will depend on how you are acting.
"my point was more, that i'm not going to accept complaints about the (meta-)game engine, like 'you can't see me because [...]' even though i can see him. i don't care if i would rather have smelled him or whatever. if someone appears on my display and is in my area of sight (means not behind me), i will take the liberty to act like i know about it IC. what i make of it through my RP may be more aimed at realism if possible."
Pay very close attention. You do NOT see an invisible person. A stealthy person you can see, but depending on if they are disguised or not you may not recognize them. There is a big difference in detecting someone (which you did if "you the player" sees them) and "seeing" them. If you "see" them you can describe them or possibly recognize them. If you smell them or hear them or otherwise detect them you will only recognize them if you know them well or they have something distinctive about them.
"if you don't want to be discovered while invisible, simply don't get close to other players. the hill giant brawler won't discuss this point with you as well."
True but he wont go tell hill giant Bob that it was Jojo that was sneaking around either.
I think some of you responding either are switching the intent of this thread or don't understand what the topic was about. It isn't can a person be detected. It is about people thinking they can call a person by his/her floating name because they saw his/her image.
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C'tair
New Member
Today is the first day of the Rest of Your life... Not Much to look forward to, is it?
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Post by C'tair on Jun 30, 2005 8:01:56 GMT -5
Pay very close attention. You do NOT see an invisible person. A stealthy person you can see, but depending on if they are disguised or not you may not recognize them. There is a big difference in detecting someone (which you did if "you the player" sees them) and "seeing" them. If you "see" them you can describe them or possibly recognize them. If you smell them or hear them or otherwise detect them you will only recognize them if you know them well or they have something distinctive about them. if i don't know someone well enough, i have no business in calling him/her by his/her name anyway. again, this is a computer game based on visuals. what kind of distinct features should that be? most of the time it comes down to simply ignoring them because you can't say what you possibly could have sensed. not that this is a problem for me. True but he wont go tell hill giant Bob that it was Jojo that was sneaking around either. ;D I think some of you responding either are switching the intent of this thread or don't understand what the topic was about. It isn't can a person be detected. It is about people thinking they can call a person by his/her floating name because they saw his/her image. guilty. feel free to ignore my last post at will.
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Misha Aogail
Old School
Player of: Torian Burrfoot, Misha, Whisper, and Oriana Gant
Posts: 324
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Post by Misha Aogail on Jun 30, 2005 8:49:22 GMT -5
Now, in real life, much of stealth is based on perception. It is possible to stand right out of the open and for a person to walk right by without noticing. Oddly enough, the human brain creates over 90% of what you "see" when in familiar areas from memory. So if you hold very still, and someone is going about their business, chances are, they wont see you unless they look right at you. Still, walking around and making noise is a differant story. I can tell you from personal LARPing experience, it IS possible to be moving, or looked straight at, and still not be seen. In an open field too. Of course you have to counter in all the factors of daylight, moonlight, and such. Of course, trying to hide somewhere in the daylight can prove to be difficult because the human eye can see a wide range of colors and can distinguish lines and shapes better, whereas at night it's harder because the colors seem to fade to an almost monochrome and established lines and shapes get blurred into the shadows. As for in game hiding, Tori generally keeps to the shadows. Of course her ability to slip in and out of them unnoticed comes into play here. For in game purposes, I've made myself a 'hiding timer', if you will. Depending on who I'm with and what I'm doing, if Tori doesn't have some sort of shadow to slip into after a ten second count, the shadows fade from around her and she becomes visible again. As long as there is a shadow of some sort she can slip in to, she will stay hidden.The only time I don't do this is at night or when I'm with friends 'cause they generally don't mind.
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