Spell changes

[gathera]

I noticed the changes to a few of the spells. Interesting concept to make the planar summonings require a bit of life force to cast i.e. experience points lost. I would how ever like to see this extended to the Animate Dead, Create Undead and Create Greater Undead spells as well. Same rational to my mind should apply to these "summoning spells" I can not yet attest to the creatures called forth at higher levels but the skeletal ogre is great summoning for a 3rd level spell. Duration, a weapon and quite capable of being augmented. Heh find out about the other ones soon enough. My rant anyway. What say you all?

[Myth]

I personally think that the create/raise undead spells is only fair to be without XP loss, because they are already a bit "nerffed". Supposedly whatever you raise should stay up till it's destroyed and there's no mental link, so a necro could raise a whole undead army, which is the reason why undead "summons" are a bit less powerful than the others of the equal level.

I like the idea of the XP loss in general because it makes you think twice before running around killing bandits with a slaad or whatever, and makes you summon it only when it'll be of real use. However in my humble opinion maybe the XP loss should be lowered, by one step. e.g. 150 instead of 200 etc. And... I think 250 for a gate make the spell unusable if you take into account the fact it's 1 round/lvl.

Just my two cents, and in general I believe changes are in the right direction

[Dachshund]

This is being discussed amongst the DM's already.

We do appreciate the feedback you guys are giving, so keep it coming!

[dajuke]

Could i be directed to a thread where the explanation for this change is discussed and why these summons have been chosen? Honestly i was quite taken aback when logging in with reyvan today and finding out about the experience point deduction for the summons he is supposed to take due to rp. I even thought a bit about ceasing to play reyvan, because at first glance this seemed to be penalizing any char that depends on their summons to survive in cormyr, which is the char i have developed reyvan specifically to be and should be as valid as any fighter or rogue. Is the wizard class deemed too powerful? Is that why they are being constrained in this way?

I read gathera's post about "life force", and wondered if dms thought about an attributes penalty for the duration of a summon rather than deducting xp every time. Something along the lines of reducing constitution and dex so that hp and physical saves are affected. It still penalizes the caster if that is what is wanted, but allows those who use summons to still be able to use them for valid rp as well, not just as an emergency meat shield, which is what it seems this xp deduction is aimed toward.

This is not a rant or a complaint, just an honestly confused long time player seeking understanding of why this change has been made. Thanks for all the hard work in FRC, and i'll see ya ig.

dajuke

[EDM Entori]

dajuke had some good points, it makes no sense for me to even summon one to fight, unless its for rp reasons. like the balors in town. I can understand it taking a tole on the caster, but it shouldn't take away from his memories and experinces (which is what experince is) a constitution deduction would be better suited if it is meant to be a life force. I can agree to the flame weapon, just takes some getting used to.

but these changes can be a good thing, but like dajuk said are we deemed too powerful. Any fighter type my level could do what my spells do consistently if properly prepared. I only have so many spells, and that summon gets entori through some tough times, and even his companions.

but thanks for the effort in trying to make FRC better, just my own personal thoughts a little.

Jimkaff said it thought, the changes are in the right direction.


thanks
ent

[Myth]

By the way I just want to add that I'm strongly against shortening summons duration. I've played in server where summons where 1 turn+1rnd/lvl, and no one would use them, and of course if you just wanted to rp the calling and a short convo, the summon would have expired by then.

[dajuke]

*waves* hi, lunch break so i just thought i'd share a couple thought's i've had while mulling this new state of events over.

First thought: How is leveling being handled? If summoning some creatures costs experience, then it seems once a char has leveled (i.e. become more knowledgeable, experienced, wiser, or what have you) then either that char is UNABLE to cast his summon until they reach the required amount of experience over their new level to deduct it again, OR the xp is deducted from their new level, seeming actually making them LOSE a level just for a summon.

thought two: I believe i understand the reasoning behind this change. We speak of how a fighter just plows his way through hordes of enemies without ever breaking sweat, while conveniently failing to remember THAT SAME FIGHTER is stuck completely alone. So as soon as he/she runs into a situation they can't handle, it's either run or die. They do not have the ability to conveniently summon a magic caster to blast those pesky phy. imm. creatures to kingdom come. Our friendly wizard on the other hand strolls through the land aimlessly while armed with his potent arsenal of spells. Something threatens and he casts a summon, now he is wizard WITH a fighter, cause some of these new summons are very nice. So i can see how the balance issue works into here.
whew, a long intro to my actual idea now. Rather than making summons cost a set amount outright, which SEVERELY reduces their usefulness as planar binding at level 11 lasts only 11 min if i understand correctly, why not instead make summons impart an xp penalty, as the mage is not now the only one doing the fighting? So now this planar ally does not cost x xp to summon, but rather cuts the casters xp received by a preset percentage, similar to partying with higher level char. Maybe 50% as a number to just throw out there. i know i would much rather play a mage knowing i could feasibly gain SOME xp rather than always wondering "will i kill enough things just to offset the casting cost of this summon?"

Third thought: Assuming the casting cost remains, this goes back to increasing levels. For each summon, would the casting cost remain constant, or become less as the caster increases in level? I ask because it seems the fact of the caster becoming stronger (i.e. gaining levels) is supposed to be reflected in their spells. This is why many spell are made to ramp up in effectiveness as the char gains levels. So perhaps the planar ally does cost 200 xp (i don't know if this is the actual cost having never played a char that can cast it) at level 11, but perhaps its cost could be decreased by 15-25xp every level, leaving it still a viable option for a high level mage to cast in an emergency. Otherwise, it seems it would become a compeltly useless spell, as xp received decreases as we level, so that any high level mage would find no reason to cast it because the cost vs. xp intake would not even equalize, reducing these summons with which we are SUPPOSED to rp with as literal meat shields to save a caster's hide.


*looks up at his post* whew, i didn't think i would right this much. I think i have more, but i'm just going to leave it at this for now, and will look forward to any constructive/enlightening responses it may entail. And i just want to end by saying I KNOW all our DMs work their a**es off, and it shows and is appreciated by every single one of us who comes to play in their little world. Peace out

see y'all ig folks

[sundano]

Does this apply to animal summons as well? I literally need to have my dire boar summoned to survive any dungeon that I am able to enter, when playing as Lindra. without it I am toast, every time, and I just end up losing a lot of xp, If I'm losing xp anyway by even summoning these guys that would make things even harder than they already are. I'm cool with penalties, but xp penalties seem a bit extreme.

[catmage]

I just want to know if the weapons that deal elemental damage will now be able to increase beyond 1d4 damage, since they are now abit harder to enhance?

[gathera]

The Animate Dead a 3rd level spell versus its direct counter part the 3rd level one calling forth a Dire wolf, smart money is on the elemental. Even if flat footed one thought that the Dire Wolf was a more formidable creature its some what brief duration is a strong impediment to using addition spells to augment it. Unlike the case for the undead. In regards to the changes made to what is called forth. In my opinion the skeletal ogre is the stronger entity than the prior summoning of the skeletal warrior. Just my experience with both spells.

[catmage]

Yes, but the undead spellls are hampered by good and appearence driven neutrals not wanting or being unable to use it on moral grounds, and evil characters risking the wrath of a certain scary individual that spends her free time killing archmages if they use it stupidly or overmuch, not to mention the regular old trouble of the wrath of PC followers of Lathlander and what not. Though, same could be said about GATEing Balors into the field, but when you call out Big Bad Balor, you don't really give a damn.

PS: Does the XP deduction count on spells cast via scrolls?

[Dachshund]

sundano said:

Does this apply to animal summons as well? I literally need to have my dire boar summoned to survive any dungeon that I am able to enter, when playing as Lindra. without it I am toast, every time, and I just end up losing a lot of xp, If I'm losing xp anyway by even summoning these guys that would make things even harder than they already are. I'm cool with penalties, but xp penalties seem a bit extreme.

You do know it helps to bring a friend, right? We encourage team-play on FRC, so if you find yourself being helpless without bringing summons along, you should maybe consider teaming up with a couple of fighters.

[catmage]

snubletraad said:

sundano said:

Does this apply to animal summons as well? I literally need to have my dire boar summoned to survive any dungeon that I am able to enter, when playing as Lindra. without it I am toast, every time, and I just end up losing a lot of xp, If I'm losing xp anyway by even summoning these guys that would make things even harder than they already are. I'm cool with penalties, but xp penalties seem a bit extreme.

You do know it helps to bring a friend, right? We encourage team-play on FRC, so if you find yourself being helpless without bringing summons along, you should maybe consider teaming up with a couple of fighters.

What if your character is a sociopath? And I'm not talking about Ailren for a change, but from the hunch that this is the animal summoner who lured a bunch of gnolls or minotaurs or some such to kill people who offed a wolf on their way through the woods. Whoo I wish I coulda seen that ;D

[Myth]

I'd say that if you choose to play a sociopath you should be ready to face the difficulties and consequences, much like someone playing an orc would.

Frankly... A binded outsider stays binded enough to make up for the XP cost if used where it should.

Just my two cents.

[Hackmaster]

OY! heh I did not use any of these spells of undead or devil/demon summons, Phelz was killed on the grounds of being the leader of these Necromancers (that are not so careful Grrrr) and for not being submissive to the certain scary individual. hehe Incidentally Phelzaron did not realize until after talking to someone later who the scary individual was haha and in all fairness its been years since he seen the scary but he certainly knows now! ;D

[sundano]

snubletraad said:

sundano said:

Does this apply to animal summons as well? I literally need to have my dire boar summoned to survive any dungeon that I am able to enter, when playing as Lindra. without it I am toast, every time, and I just end up losing a lot of xp, If I'm losing xp anyway by even summoning these guys that would make things even harder than they already are. I'm cool with penalties, but xp penalties seem a bit extreme.

You do know it helps to bring a friend, right? We encourage team-play on FRC, so if you find yourself being helpless without bringing summons along, you should maybe consider teaming up with a couple of fighters.

heh! yeah, but spending most of my time in Redmist now, I hardly see anyone, lol. Only Deliana visits Lindra with any frequency, lol.

[tskfrc58]

ah well...so much for summons-based wizards. Miraster(uthar) was a bit too long in the tooth anyway. Not that he was allowed to even summon planar biengs anymore anyway without the wrath of god(s) coming down on him. Unless youplay a lawful good, happy go lucky, sociophile who has separation anxiety, your going to have a hard time of it. Especially if your character or mood has you playing the loner-type, evil, plotting madmen.

But if this includes animal companions and familiars to, well ,thats a bit...harsh, for your low-phys characters.

The concept here bieng: Why summon somthing that is going to cost more xp to your character than you may end up gaining on the adventure to begin with? What about all the RP involved with some of these companions?

"Hey Yodoko, what happened to your prized falcon, Tetsu-ko?"

yodo:"Oh, so sorry, the sight of her made me weak, so i released her. Ive given up falconry entirely now, in pursuit of something more in line with the samurai code...knitting"

[Munroe]

The only summonings that were modified were some of the planar summonings, but your sarcasm is appreciated.

[gathera]

Its chaotic good actually, heh.

Kneeling down carefully she grasps the ebony hued gauntlet firmly in one hand. With a soft smile slips the glove on flexing it feeling the worn leather strain. "Challenge accepted"

[dajuke]

*waves* hi again. Just wondering cause i haven't been able to find any others, is there a different thread that talks about this subject so i can read up on the driving reasons behind these changes? If not that's cool, i'll just wait for offcial word as to how/if any of the questions i raised may be dealt with as FRC moves forward. keep up the great work guys, currently i have reyvan taking a hiatus for personal reasons as i think about how i want him to develop. (and real life is stealing my mornings, so anyone who i usually play with then sorry, i'm not purposefully avoiding you).

Peace out,
see ya ig

[DM Richard (Retired)]

Here is a link to the changes made for those of you that are only seeing this thread.

The spell changes have not yet been confirmed as final.

frc.proboards37.com/index.cgi?board=frcnewsandannouncements&action=display&thread=1157527978

[catmage]

This probably belongs in bugs and issues, but since there's already a thread going on, a level seven wizard only produces the 1d4 damage level of flame weapon, not the indicated 1d6 as it says in the mod post.

[EDM Entori]

yeah I noticed that today as well, I should have 1d8 due to my level 11 but I got 1d6. *shrugs* oh well

[dajuke]

*smacks his head*doh!, in the natural place that i should have looked. Sheesh. One thing though, animal companions and familiars can now be fed ad infinitum, as i have found out out with my two char companions. I don't know if that was purposeful or just happened when things were being tweaked, but thought it was worth a comment. And it's just TOO tempting when it's almost dead to bring it back to full health. *shrugs* guilty as charged

see ya ig folks

[Kharn597]

Just was thinking, even though we have no blackguards on the server at the moment, how would this effect blackguard demons/devil? The way I've looked at it when comparing it the DM book, the demon/devil is like a companion bound to stronger service to the blackguard like a horse/dragon of a paladin then a cleric or wizard summoning a devil or demon. Like a gift from thier god of a creature thats in the service to that god.

[Myth]

Just a note - minor complaint.

The XP cost for the planar bindings IMHO should also be taken into consideration by the DMs as well. Meaning, when a player calls upon an extraplanar creature and he has perfectly acceptable reasons to do so (in the case I have in mind, calling a celestial to battle fiends attacking a city) they should at least reward the appropriate use of the binding, instead of leaving the player at an XP loss for doing something perfectly in character.

After all, the XP penalty is supposed to be to stop unnessesary and/or soloing summons, not actually hinder and punish their correct use, or at least that's what I thought.

In any case, I like to believe that was just a single occurence and the DM just forgot to hand xp even for the battle. Still, it's something I like to believe DMs keep in mind about those spells

edit: And before someone asks, yes, I'd do it again and lose xp again, because that's what my character would do anyway in this case.

[Grozer]

jimkaf said:

Just a note - minor complaint.

The XP cost for the planar bindings IMHO should also be taken into consideration by the DMs as well. Meaning, when a player calls upon an extraplanar creature and he has perfectly acceptable reasons to do so (in the case I have in mind, calling a celestial to battle fiends attacking a city) they should at least reward the appropriate use of the binding, instead of leaving the player at an XP loss for doing something perfectly in character.

After all, the XP penalty is supposed to be to stop unnessesary and/or soloing summons, not actually hinder and punish their correct use, or at least that's what I thought.

In any case, I like to believe that was just a single occurence and the DM just forgot to hand xp even for the battle. Still, it's something I like to believe DMs keep in mind about those spells

edit: And before someone asks, yes, I'd do it again and lose xp again, because that's what my character would do anyway in this case.

The XP loss is supposed to simulate the mental effort and draining it takes on takes to draw forth an outsider; it is not a given that a mortal can call upon a planar being and it not effect him/her whether or not the act was out of good faith or in character.

[Myth]

grozer said:

The XP loss is supposed to simulate the mental effort and draining it takes on takes to draw forth an outsider; it is not a given that a mortal can call upon a planar being and it not effect him/her whether or not the act was out of good faith or in character.

I am by no means going to tell DMs their job, just saying my opinion. Mental effort and draining is not XP loss.. XP is experience, memories that make people advance. Hence as hinted before if the reason behind the xp loss is accurate simulation...

Furthermore... nowhere in PnP have we seen XP loss for summoning or binding anything. Hence my thoughts were that the changes -weren't- to more accurately simulate pnp (since as mentioned before xp loss doesn't happen in pnp for such reasons) as to stop people from abusing their powerful summons...

Have I gotten it all wrong?

[Grozer]

Double check you PHB, planar summoning spells do in fact cost XP.

[Myth]

Correct me if I'm wrong but maybe we are confusing Planar Ally spells with Planar Binding spells here?