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Post by Booze Hound on Sept 8, 2006 17:28:28 GMT -5
wel since this has become such a popular thread about summoning this and that, I thought I'd freshen it up a bit with something that I know Ainur will appreciate.
WHat are the chances of getting the visual effect of Barkskin and Stoneskin turned off? They are just such a pain in the ass for RP a lot of the time. And they look stupid. And they sound funny. And look stupid.
I mean wouldnt it be just as easy to say that the spell makes your skin "Like bark" or "Like stone" rather than covers you with it?
I dont even know if it is possible, but man I went to a lot of work to make my armor look this cool, and I want those monsters to appreciate my fashion sense before I gut them!
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Post by Grozer on Sept 8, 2006 17:44:43 GMT -5
wel since this has become such a popular thread about summoning this and that, I thought I'd freshen it up a bit with something that I know Ainur will appreciate. WHat are the chances of getting the visual effect of Barkskin and Stoneskin turned off? They are just such a pain in the ass for RP a lot of the time. And they look stupid. And they sound funny. And look stupid. I mean wouldnt it be just as easy to say that the spell makes your skin "Like bark" or "Like stone" rather than covers you with it? I dont even know if it is possible, but man I went to a lot of work to make my armor look this cool, and I want those monsters to appreciate my fashion sense before I gut them! Its possible an old server I played on didnt show these effects when you cast the spells. From what little I know about scripting I think its possible to turn off the visual effect without touching the magical enchantments. Heh this would ruin some of my disguises though! LOL
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Post by Booze Hound on Sept 8, 2006 19:06:19 GMT -5
bah! just means you gotta get more creative! but I think it would be really cool to not look like a damn tree/rock, and if I look like a tree in the forest, I want a hide bonus! lol j/k ;D
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Post by soulfien on Sept 8, 2006 19:36:11 GMT -5
Ohh that would totally rock!!
Garistan walks past a rogue in the shadows....
Rogue jumps out and lunges his dagger straight for Garistan's back!
Rogue screams in horror and pain as the dagger stops short of its mark and acid and fire coat his entire arm!
Garistan jumps startled by the scream and turns around to see a severely wounded rogue running away!
*grins evily*
In all seriousness, I've been waiting anxiously for Premonition just so I wouldn't have to suffer that ugly stoneskin coloration.
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Post by Laurk on Sept 9, 2006 14:24:23 GMT -5
Is it possible to limit the range of trueseeing to about 15', that way recepiants of the spell actually have to look around a little to see if someone is listening in? It would still protect them from iminant sneak attacks, and still allows them to see mundanly hidden things (which is unfair as it is.) Limiting the range of the spell would balance this out nicely I believe by not only protecting the caster from sneak attacks and allowing them to whisper safely, but it would also give tailing rogues who are careful about keeping their distance a chance of success.
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Post by Dachshund on Sept 9, 2006 14:32:12 GMT -5
Take away the only thing that keeps rogues from sneak attacking with bows constantly?
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Post by soulfien on Sept 9, 2006 14:50:02 GMT -5
I agree. Stealth is WAY too overpowered to take away the ONLY thing that can spot them!
I don't care how high your spot and listen are. I don't know a single person who can detect Louis without True Seeing or even Torian, our last remaining shadowdancer.
Without True Seeing there is only amplify (duration 5 rounds) or Clairaudience/Clairvoyance (duration 1 round/level).
Both of those spells are only useful if you happen to cast them at the right time in the right place and even then, Clairaudience/Clairvoyance isn't guarenteed to allow you to detect a high level rogue unless your spot and listen are already maxed out as a class skill- cross class isn't enough.
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Manshin
Old School
FRC2 Build Team
Posts: 703
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Post by Manshin on Sept 9, 2006 17:57:53 GMT -5
Sneak attack only works within a certain range. Even with a bow. Extend the range to whatever that range is... which I believe is 15', and you will be covered from sneak attacks. The trouble with the spell is that it negates the roges ability all together, its not like it gives them an advantage yet still remains to chance, it utterly negates it. Perhaps the solution would be to extend the duration on the other spells like clairvoiyance while limiting the range of true seeing to 15'. Wether or not this is your only tool or not for spotting rogues, the fact is, it is over powered as the spell was never meant to reveal mundanley hidden objects and characters... so a little balance would be nice. I mean... look at the power balance here.. Everyone is crying because a rogue gets one sneak attack if they sneak up close... a wizard can melt you with a single spell. I mean, what if rogues had an ability that negated the implosion spell, or death spells? Im not saying to make Trueseeing useless by any means, just limit the range so that it can protect from sneak attacks but isnt a guaranteed spot to a rogue who keeps a respectful distance.
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Post by DM Grizwald on Sept 9, 2006 18:18:19 GMT -5
I agree. Stealth is WAY too overpowered to take away the ONLY thing that can spot them! I don't care how high your spot and listen are. I don't know a single person who can detect Louis without True Seeing or even Torian, our last remaining shadowdancer. Without True Seeing there is only amplify (duration 5 rounds) or Clairaudience/Clairvoyance (duration 1 round/level). Both of those spells are only useful if you happen to cast them at the right time in the right place and even then, Clairaudience/Clairvoyance isn't guarenteed to allow you to detect a high level rogue unless your spot and listen are already maxed out as a class skill- cross class isn't enough. I knew a druid that has before. And on this one server i played on, true seeing was a combination of see invisibility and boosted spot stat.
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Post by Booze Hound on Sept 9, 2006 18:39:57 GMT -5
I agree. Stealth is WAY too overpowered to take away the ONLY thing that can spot them! I don't care how high your spot and listen are. I don't know a single person who can detect Louis without True Seeing or even Torian, our last remaining shadowdancer. Without True Seeing there is only amplify (duration 5 rounds) or Clairaudience/Clairvoyance (duration 1 round/level). Both of those spells are only useful if you happen to cast them at the right time in the right place and even then, Clairaudience/Clairvoyance isn't guarenteed to allow you to detect a high level rogue unless your spot and listen are already maxed out as a class skill- cross class isn't enough. Soulf, honestly, how paranoid are you about assassination? I mean how often does assassination actually happen on the server? seriously, PvP is such a rare and big thing on FRC that it seems ridiculous to worry about true seeing spotting rogues because you are scared fo them getting in ONE sneak attack, at the most 2. the thing that 99% of all the stealthy people want true seeing toned down a notch for is info gathering. Watching, following and listening. Realisticly, any rogue worth his salt is going to stay at least 15' away. they couldnt get that one bow ranged sneak attack in from there, cause you have to be within 15'. not to mention they actually have to hit you. and it isnt just rogues, there are plenty of rangers and druids out there that have worked real hard to be sneaky only to have anywhere within sight, (even if you are behind a building out of sight) a no mans land for hiding. I think this would be a fantastic compromise. Especially of the visuals for Barks and Stoneskin were removed. then IF someone was trying to get that SINGLE sneak attack in, they would break their wrist on a pile of rock hard skin. P.S., I am not getting on you Soulf, I re read and noticed it sounded like it. I'm not, I respect a lot of what you say, this was aimed as just an argument to everyones point about getting sneak attacked. ;D
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Post by heimdall on Sept 9, 2006 22:44:41 GMT -5
I'm wondering if it's possible that the Acid Splash and Electric Jolt can be made to do 1d4+1 pts of damage? Seems the only Cantrip folks seem to choose is ray of frost...simply because 2-5 dmg is a better deal than 1-3 dmg any day of the week. Ray of Frost should be modified to 1d3 as it is supposed to be, not the others modded up. Yes, that would work too...hehe, I was just trying to be 'the good guy' for a change! (what was I thinking!?)wel since this has become such a popular thread about summoning this and that, I thought I'd freshen it up a bit with something that I know Ainur will appreciate. What are the chances of getting the visual effect of Barkskin and Stoneskin turned off? They are just such a pain in the ass for RP a lot of the time. And they look stupid. And they sound funny. And look stupid. I mean wouldnt it be just as easy to say that the spell makes your skin "Like bark" or "Like stone" rather than covers you with it? I dont even know if it is possible, but man I went to a lot of work to make my armor look this cool, and I want those monsters to appreciate my fashion sense before I gut them! I think this is a great idea if it can be done. Although I often use the stoneskin/barkskin disguise as well...it's real handy in a pinch, but I think I could adapt. Is it possible to limit the range of trueseeing to about 15', that way recepiants of the spell actually have to look around a little to see if someone is listening in? It would still protect them from iminant sneak attacks, and still allows them to see mundanly hidden things (which is unfair as it is.) Limiting the range of the spell would balance this out nicely I believe by not only protecting the caster from sneak attacks and allowing them to whisper safely, but it would also give tailing rogues who are careful about keeping their distance a chance of success. Great idea! How about having the visual effects of True Seeing and Ultravision removed as well!
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Post by soulfien on Sept 9, 2006 22:52:50 GMT -5
actually, I'm sick of getting my pocket picked by a certain rogue who's hit me several times Also, Padrin used to follow Garistan around using stealth all the time. It was annoying. Not to mention seeing Torian vanish in plain sight the way she does is unnerving. Oh, and he has been hunted more than frequently and even assassinated once by Louis. He used to actively move against the Banites, remember? He hunted Chrill for years game time. He was atacked by Jorban and when Marklar joined in the fight he took off! He's also been tailed by Son'ya at least 30 times. Trust me, True Seeing is a MUST! Besides, why are the rogues so scared of true seeing? It's not like it lasts forever. It lasts 1 turn/level and I've yet to see any mage or cleric have it cast as often as rogues use stealth.
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Post by soulfien on Sept 9, 2006 23:02:50 GMT -5
How to beat True Seeing--- Wait til the spell wears off. That's it. Also, how many mages and clerics even have the spell? I'm betting we have more sneakers than detectors. Also, if a mage/cleric has true seeing cast, it's probably because they have already been hit by the rogue. Unlike what you all are making it sound like- you don't walk into a town and see everyone from the villiage idiot to the Guard Captian with permanent True Seeing now, do you? Just ask Son'ya how to defeat True Seeing- she's probably the most skilled sneaker I've ever seen. Garistan can cast True Seeing and still not spot her because she knows how to REALLY hide behind obsticals and buildings out of sight until I'm far enough away to not notice her. The ONLY way True Seeing will send out a red flag is when the sneaker has on noisy enchantments which should TOTALLY kill their stealth anyway. But as it stands, you can carry a torch, have 50 enchantments running, and be standing in the middle of a paved road in your underwear and True Seeing is the only way anyone will see you. ---- Edit: how to fix stealth: It was said up above that a rogue worth his salt would stay farther than 15 feet away... well, a mage worth his salt wouldn't meta-game true seeing, but just to remove all temptation from rogues as well as wizards, here ya go... For stealth: All light sources (torches, lanterns, light spell, and any spell effect giving off light) grant you a -50 to your Hide skill. Thus if a mage casts continual light on a rogue, he can't hide anymore- if a rogue has a bow that sheds light, he can't hide with the bow equipped. All spell effects that give off noise (protection from elements, see invisibility, ultravision, etc....) give you a -50 to move silently. If it's possible to add in day/night effects... -15 to hide during the day and +15 to hide at night. For true seeing, if the above is done then it shouldn't be too difficult to nerf true seeing and not unbalance the game. This would place stealth more in the lines of trueness and make it realistic for a rogue when out farming.
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Post by olwentheold on Sept 10, 2006 0:03:03 GMT -5
New spell mods, check stickied post.
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Post by Booze Hound on Sept 10, 2006 0:26:25 GMT -5
but it's not only a PvP thing that we are talking about, but there are a lot of beasties out there with True Seeing that can be a real pain in the ass.
And we're not asking for it to be turned off, or even dumbed down that much, just a smaller range, hell make it 20 feet! whatever! then you can see before they get in the dreaded sneak attack range with a bow even! it would also be just as effective aainst a pick pocket or anyone else near enough to be a nuisance.
as it is, it is just kooky is all. *shrug*
and I would be happy with making the floaty eyes disappear, then you could have both True Seeing and Stoneskin and barkskin on, and see the sneaky rogue who thinks he's still sneaky, and be protected! without them knowing! ;D
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Post by soulfien on Sept 10, 2006 0:35:34 GMT -5
yes,I know it's not just pvp. I've played a rogue up to high level- a human rogue too! You haven't TRUELY rp'ed stealth until you've crept through a dark cave without using a light source.... bumping into walls, not seeing an enemy until you trip over it... etc... no night vision. Imagine if that was the way it was supposed to be- if light sources truely killed stealth... My point is simply that stealth is more broken than true seeing. That's all. Fix stealth and true seeing can be fixed. But griping about true seeing when stealth is so overpowered is just ... kooky
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Post by soulfien on Sept 10, 2006 1:00:51 GMT -5
thanks, Staff!!! Time to make that wand of knock now
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Post by thogrimur on Sept 10, 2006 1:16:04 GMT -5
Fair sized task, but could it possible to 'fix' the items in FRC that shed a light radius to also offer a -20 or -30 or so to the Hide skill? Light and Continual light would need the nerf to Hide as well.
Just a thought.
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Post by Dachshund on Sept 10, 2006 1:27:09 GMT -5
Fair sized task, but could it possible to 'fix' the items in FRC that shed a light radius to also offer a -20 or -30 or so to the Hide skill? Light and Continual light would need the nerf to Hide as well. Just a thought. If true seeing is to be nerfed, the above should happen as well. Maybe not a -50 penalty as Soulfien suggests, but something in the line of -20 to -30. I know some players already unequip all light sources when they try to hide, but that's more an rp aspect. There are still plenty of rogues out there who don't. And I think the true seeing range, IF altered, should extend to a minimum of earshot. That way people who want to follow, can follow someone with True Seeing, but cannot eavesdrop on conversations unless they wish to reveal themselves. And don't forget... True Seeing potions ARE rather expensive.
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Post by soulfien on Sept 10, 2006 3:57:34 GMT -5
yeah, but I seriously doubt the sneakers would want a mage's buff spells to kill their stealth. It's one thing to turn off a light, but to have to pass up a mage's protection spells so they can scout ahead would really burn their hide But, that's one of the things that need to be done in my opinion for that balance they badly want with True Seeing
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Post by olwentheold on Sept 10, 2006 5:38:01 GMT -5
Fair sized task, but could it possible to 'fix' the items in FRC that shed a light radius to also offer a -20 or -30 or so to the Hide skill? Light and Continual light would need the nerf to Hide as well. Just a thought. I would love to do this, but I'm almost certain it's beyond my puny abilities . . . hiding and all is likely hard-coded into the NWN engine. Unless someone here has some brilliant insight to correct me . ..
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Post by heimdall on Sept 10, 2006 10:01:48 GMT -5
Just customized a glittering necklace, but the max reduction in hide I could give it was -10.
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Post by heimdall on Sept 10, 2006 10:07:36 GMT -5
Also, I was on for several hours this evening, and I could not 'feed' my familiar at all except that first time. Even well after forty minutes had passed. Even after two hours had passed and the familiar had been unsummoned and summoned again. So...something's foul in the air of Denmark...eh....i dunno, i'm tired.
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Post by Dachshund on Sept 10, 2006 10:43:33 GMT -5
I heard that!
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Post by Quadhund/Greenhouse on Sept 10, 2006 10:45:22 GMT -5
You don't need to add all these modifications to nerf stealth, you just need to nerf the equipment.
Even as a prominent sneaker on the server, I would be VERY willing to knock all those +10 and +5 bonuses down +2 and +1. *Counts up all his bonuses from stealth stuff* add the one, carry the ten ... I get over +20 just from items to both hide and move silently. You take that away and now you will find people actively seeking to raise their spot and listen instead of relying on true seeing.
On a side note, I am not sure how true seeing helps against pick pocketing. Unless you are going through your bag in the inn and a rogue approaches you from behind and pick pockets you .... true seeing is not going to help anyways. As far as I know, it does NOT boost your spot skill.
True seeing is achieved at level 9,11,13 depending on what class you are. If you have extend spell, which I would imagine most spellcasters do, you could memorize 2 extended versions in the next two levels and have virually permatrueseeing (ie. you could rest every time trueseeing ran out and recast it). So the suggestion that the only way to beat true seeing is to wait ... I disagree with that. As it is, the only way I know to beat true seeing at this point, is to hope that the other person respects the fact that you are hiding in that tree or behind that building and that they don't "investigate" once they have the spell cast because they see you as a shaded character now.
I think Laurk's idea is a good one, but I realize that stealth is currently broken against characters without true seeing.
On another side note, True seeing potions ARE expensive, but I know of two places in the module that you have a VERY high chance of them always dropping.
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Post by soulfien on Sept 10, 2006 10:59:37 GMT -5
Yeah, I know those places too... and here's a little known secret...
True Seeing is the only spell in the game that's hard as hell to scribe onto a scroll!!! I tried scribing the scroll so I would have it if I needed it and I saw "Lost item: Dragon's blood." I was like holy crap!! You don't just walk to the corner drug store and buy dragon's blood!
As far as memorizing the spell, I get 1 7th level spell per day- there's my true seeing. Extending it? That would be my lvl 8 spell (when I get that high) which would be used for Premonition.
But yeah, DM Ainur, all you have to do is adjust equipment and spells
True Seeing doesn't help against pickpocketing, per say, but if I had it cast then I'd be able to see the thief walking in and out of the crowd and I'd be better able to come up with a way to protect my own belongings. Without True Seeing you can never know a thief is in the area because his stealth is too damn high.
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Post by Quadhund/Greenhouse on Sept 10, 2006 11:17:31 GMT -5
Sixth level spell for sorcs/wizzies. Oh and I just wanted the way I see most people use trying seeing. "We need to talk" Walk somewhere private and when they get there *pop trueseeing*. OR Hey look, its a sneaky character, let's pop trueseeing to make sure he doesn't follow us to our hideout. Both perfecty reasonable uses, just stating how I see it used most times.
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Post by soulfien on Sept 10, 2006 11:35:02 GMT -5
6th level? sorry about that.. been a while since my computer worked thanks for the correction Well, let me say again that there aren't many people with true seeing on this server. Phelzaron is a necromancer who can't cast divination spells. I don't know, maybe things have changed in the last 5 months, but when I was on we had, I think, 4 active players with that spell? So, saying that a rogue should be allowed to follow ANYONE THEY WANT with no chance of ever being detected *glares at DM Laurk* is like saying that rogues should be allowed to know and understand every language so people couldn't say anything they might not understand. So what if you can't follow or evesdrop on that one wizard and his friend. Wait until the wizard leaves and then "interrogate" the friend. Or something... use your head- you can't always get your way.
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Post by Dachshund on Sept 10, 2006 14:01:23 GMT -5
So, saying that a rogue should be allowed to follow ANYONE THEY WANT with no chance of ever being detected *glares at DM Laurk* is like saying that rogues should be allowed to know and understand every language so people couldn't say anything they might not understand. So what if you can't follow or evesdrop on that one wizard and his friend. Wait until the wizard leaves and then "interrogate" the friend. Or something... use your head- you can't always get your way. What he said. I agree.
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Manshin
Old School
FRC2 Build Team
Posts: 703
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Post by Manshin on Sept 10, 2006 23:52:56 GMT -5
Well, Considering that Trueseeing would be limited to 15' or 20', and stealthed characters move at half speed... Folowing "ANYONE THEY WANT" Seems a bit overstated. If you are concerned you are being followed, which I would assume you are if you have Trueseeing cast on yourself, all you really have to do is suddenly backpeddle a good 20' and the slow ass rogue who was tailing will suddenly become quite visible. Say your in a house, and you want to make certain that you arent being listened too, you cast truesight, and rather than everything within range of the monoter showing up, you actually have to poke your head into a couple of the rooms to see if anyone is in there. I dont see what is so difficult about that. I also dont see where the big disadvantage to the caster is. It requires you to walk around a little to be certain the parimeter is secure... if anything that sounds realistic and forces players to be cautious rather than letting game mechanics solve their problems for them. The only thing limiting the range would do is make the whole cat and mouse game a bit more entertaining. Also... 15' or 20' does put you out of earshot... its called a whisper.
Also, bear in mind, even at 20' feet... one of the biggest advantages a rogue has is completely lost. The sneak attack. The only thing he is left with, is the ability to keep you guessing as to where he is so you cant instantly target him with all of your death spells and firey doom. Take that away (as with trueseeing currently) and all that is left is a really sub-par fighter in light armor.
Ill say again, what if rogues got an ability which negated all of your deadliest spells and left you with only first and second level spells. Wouldnt you want to nerf that a bit?
The biggest dump with trueseeing that I can think of currently is that when I am prowling around, by the time I acutally "see" that a character has those little eyes floating over their head, they have already spotted me. So I am left with no time to go over my options and figure out what to do.
I agree with Quad that the stealth equipment is out of hand though. I wouldnt mind seeing +1 or +2 being about the best you can get per item.
By the way, when it comes to visual effects, I dont believe they should all be gone... maybe barkskin and stoneskin, but I think it's cool that some spells have visual effects that can tell a seasoned adventurer what he is dealing with. If you have true seeing cast, its not unreasonable that your eyes would glow.. .however since there are several effects which make your eyes glow, that can add to the illusion that you 'might' have trueseeing on you.
I certainly agree that any light source or glowing visual effect should spoil your hiding... but thats really up the player, because going around and fixing every peace of light-giving equipment in FRC would take eons... though it is a good thought for NWN 2. Anyone who has ever traveled with me can attest that Manshin is doing his part. I always forbid any buff that makes me give off light or sound. And I even keep my sword in a scabbard to hide the light it gives off until the moment I strike... and then put it right back in... even at the cost of getting thumped and loosing a counter attack because I cant get the damned thing out quickly enough. And I bought a belt with darkvision so I could creep around in the dark realistically. I would strongly recomend any player doing the same... and when I see players with light sources sneaking around... I let them know.
Manshin
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