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Post by quelunia on Jul 21, 2017 19:35:31 GMT -5
Just hopping on to point out, this whole thread, and all of the recent discussions, including those many players had at once with some staff members in game, have been about pvp over the years. People can only bring up past occurrences as evidence for either events that were handled well, or mishandled. You can't just say "Don't use my character's actions as reference to the issues surrounding mass pvp, that happened years ago." Likewise, the whole idea of "So yes... if you talk crap some people are going to kill you. And that's not their burden, it's yours for deeming yourself brave enough to initiate the conversation that led to your own demise." Just...sigh. It's why I appreciate Zodika and the evils like her cause you get into an argument with them and actually have a chance to duel with words, debating ideologies, arguing politics and so forth. What you basically said in that statement is absolutely not accurate for cormyr, canon or this version of cormyr. I know the setting arguments for after the wars and blah blah blah, but what you are basically saying is. Evil is going to kill you if you speak out against them, they're going to kill you for pulling funny faces at them, they are going to kill you for wearing the wrong perfume on tuesday. But if the dm controlling npc's finally arrests your ass, we can expect the state to let you escape at least once, then bring you up on a lengthy trial where you can defend yourself and possibly get off free, then get executed only to show up 4 hours later and rinse and repeat. Feels like we're playing in bloody thay where the red wizards just have the legal powers to kill anyone they want and everyone else has to put in the work to try and stop them after the fact, working against an entire system that punishes good and lawful alignment's more harshly do to the nature of their characters respect for law and good. Even in LN Cormyr that seems utterly freaking bizarre. Again, the system obviously isnt working because this same convo keeps coming up at least once a year for the last what...6-7 years i have been here? The whole wild west handling of pvp, everyone making personal judgements on how the law will react or not react, is not working. It's leaving people bitter ooc enemies and continues to alienate people to an otherwise RP focused server. I like Rane agree deaths should mean a lot more. I also thing they shouldn't be the go to for ending a hostile situation. Aron has a dislike for a few characters That Elf lol... There are other ways of dealing with characters you disagree with. The thing of it is Aron can RP all day long but public opinion is still going to be on the Elf side. Which is fine, however at what point does The Elf go to far? At what point does Aron feel it becomes the appropriate response to kill said Elf? Do they cross paths in the woods and walk away from one another? Do they cross paths in the wild and that elf has the upper hand with company? Is it worth it to risk Arons life to take down an Elf that dislikes him? Is it worth the potential justice to come? Would the Khazark approve... Those are all things that go into the RP of a choice of PVP, Aron is a soldier not an assassin. Has anything the Elf has done harmed Thay a Red Wizard or the Enclave? Its not worth it then ... so then How to respond to the Hostility? Attack the ideas the Elf is throwing out... Its been fun and thank you .. you know who you are. Now Tasar at the testimony ... Tal... those two ... Tal insulted Aron ... Its noted, its also a slight he doesn't want others to repeat. And so ... There may or may not be an issue at some time to put him back in his place. Tasar, while not threatening to the Red Wizards did show contempt and that is something that breeds disrespect to the Red Wizards. Again is it worth killing him? No, besides as a soldier... I follow orders I don't think for myself. And so Aron waits, however he understands the implications of all their actions. Throw all that PVP stuff in reverse... Aron is in the Hullack.. Tasar and his hip pimple are their and .... Is it worth it or in their nature to remove Cormyr of a Enlave soldier and rid the forest as well as the kingdom of yet another waste of air being breathed by a Thayan scum. Should I be upset if they decide to kill Aron? If they decide to kill Aron then and there ... Should I be upset? Or should I reward their roleplay? Are there ways Aron could come back? If so how many resources would it take is it a timely process to recover? Or do I just hit the respawn button and go somewhere else like it never happened? I think about all this .. I don't get upset... Aron is just a character sheet ... a character in a story that at some point the ink will run out. And the next book in the series will need another character. The serious issue in PVP is when the character goes from being that ... a character in a story to being an avatar representing the player behind the screen. I totally don't agree with PVP being the answer to hostile situations. But there are times when it should be an option. I also accept that playing a character has consequences. Aron is a Thayan Knight .. if the Red Wizards faulter ... Aron will be a defender and it is possible he will die, I don't hold any delusions of grandeur he will be so indispensable that he cant die... he is a soldier of course its possible he can die.... We are all playing adventurers of course there is a chance of death... and Yet the respawn button ruins that life or death suspense. |
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Post by Animayhem on Jul 21, 2017 19:41:31 GMT -5
Getting killed assassin style for speaking one's honest opinion to me cheesy. One can have a fist fight old school style no magic weapons or necessary death the winner gets satisfaction.
Hells, all the smak Cassius said about Marister would of qualified several attacks by Marister and Raven. Why did not Marister do such? Marister is secure in who he is and his ideals. He does not need to go around killing and physically fighting to do so. (OOC I feel its a waste of time and energy especially in my opinion with a broken pvp and justice system)
In FR in general Thay is seen a a cesspool of evil and corruption one that should be flushed out of existence. Mulhorandi are self serving and selfish. They see those non-Mulan low life. Those half Mulan a bit higher lifeform.
The society thrives on slaves and gives slaves illusions of importance by being gladiators, champion fighters to bring glory to Thay. The highest class of slave is the Thayan Knight. Yes Knights are freemen many of noble houses or legion
members who served with distinction. However a Knight lives to protect the Red he serves. The red's wants and needs come before his.
This feeling is not new to here or persistant worlds. In the campaign SOU a Thayan wants to set up shop in a town and noone wants any dealing with any aspect of Thay.
So if you are playing a Thayan, especially a Red wizard, you come with this perception even before anyone knows your name. So if players wish to play off this fact there is precedent for it. To the degree which this is mentioned depends on theopposing character's experience with Thay and Thayan's and how the one playing a Thayan sees themselves.
As for Holance and Shiv , should they be executed or permadead, personally I would not like to see either go as they are strong character's however that will be for them to decide. I think the confrontation and trial was long in coming and long supported in rp by both players.
Respawning is an option the killed has and often the only unless the agressor agreed to an ooc raise. This can be infuriating as it is hard for most (who do not power level power gear or farm) to get xp and gold back. Luckily in all the times Marister has been killed in pvp he was raised.
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Post by quelunia on Jul 21, 2017 20:04:08 GMT -5
I think this whole Thayan talk needs perspective.
1357 Thay had a war called the Salamander War, this war raised a guy named Azner Thull to power in Priador forming a relationship with Kossuth. This led to Azner to become the Zulkir of Priador. Szass Tam from that time on found him to be a rival and Azner played the part of rival till his death in 1375.
From the end of the Salamander War in 1358 the Thayans have tried hard to change the image of war mongerers to merchants. In fighting at Enclaves and in Thay are just things that happen within the culture. Yes there is slavery. From 1375 to present time Thay has had a civil war Szass Tam trying to solidify all power in Thay behind him, and his rivals banded together in their own camps fighting him where they can when they can. Szass Tam is building a huge undead army to the North of Thay, in secret.
So public opinion is not really roleplayed the way it should be in my opinion. Thayans in all actuality for basically the last 30 years have been trying to careful craft an image of giving up on wars and focusing on Trade. The image portrayed to the outside is that they have given up on their old ways and are focusing on being merchants of magic. Are Thayans trusted everywhere? No, but with the Enclave system of trade Thayans are more widely accepted.
Yet they are treated as hostile war mongers from what I have seen. I will say I have taken a different view with Aron. In the past and still I understand many have focused on Necromancers... Well in Thay there are factions that do not care for Necromancers. How many folks tried that angle to approach or view Thay?? How many of you study your Lore? There is an avenue where Thayans could truly benefit by having allies outside their Enclave... At the same time, I wish the DMs represented this as well. As players Necromancers aren't the only way. You want rivalries? Make an Transmutter an Evoker... Diviner? Have that Thayan rivalry carry over. There is mention by some Thayans about the civil war. Want to have a reason to PVP without consequence ... join the Rivalry lol.
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Post by hellscream123 on Jul 21, 2017 21:51:50 GMT -5
-dedacted due to non constructive railroad jumping-
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Post by quelunia on Jul 21, 2017 22:10:05 GMT -5
*ping the DM channel* " Hey is there any way to get some over sight here? Arician is totally ignoring my character and stealing a plot hook from my character?"
*wait*
*ping DM channel again* " Anyone there? "
*wait*
*twenty minutes later*
OOC- Well crap guess I cant play along on that hook because Arician was being a douche.... And damn it the DMs aren't around....
*elf is acting threatening toward Aron .. disappears and oh ... *
*ping the DM channel* DM there?
*wait*
*ping the DM channel* DM there? Trying to see if I drink my true seeing if I can tell where this guy went...?
*wait *
OOC- well crap that sucks
Yeah there is no way to wait for the DM's they are not on all the time ... This also amounts to consent needing to be offered ... What if when the DM comes on the other character doesn't want to PVP? What if they come up with some whacky story the DMs decide to entertain? What if ? So now... I don't get to RP my character ?
How about this? If there is no DM on shut the server down? That makes sense.
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Post by hellscream123 on Jul 21, 2017 23:23:58 GMT -5
My apologies to what you're referencing Quel. My computer grumped and i jever saw the request for said hook. It then sadly burnt in the server crash later that day and so doesnt exist at all in weird twist.
And yes you point out the glearing flaw in my perfect world but sadly i havent got better suggestions.
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Post by Animayhem on Jul 21, 2017 23:51:08 GMT -5
I think this whole Thayan talk needs perspective. 1357 Thay had a war called the Salamander War, this war raised a guy named Azner Thull to power in Priador forming a relationship with Kossuth. This led to Azner to become the Zulkir of Priador. Szass Tam from that time on found him to be a rival and Azner played the part of rival till his death in 1375. From the end of the Salamander War in 1358 the Thayans have tried hard to change the image of war mongerers to merchants. In fighting at Enclaves and in Thay are just things that happen within the culture. Yes there is slavery. From 1375 to present time Thay has had a civil war Szass Tam trying to solidify all power in Thay behind him, and his rivals banded together in their own camps fighting him where they can when they can. Szass Tam is building a huge undead army to the North of Thay, in secret. So public opinion is not really roleplayed the way it should be in my opinion. Thayans in all actuality for basically the last 30 years have been trying to careful craft an image of giving up on wars and focusing on Trade. The image portrayed to the outside is that they have given up on their old ways and are focusing on being merchants of magic. Are Thayans trusted everywhere? No, but with the Enclave system of trade Thayans are more widely accepted. Yet they are treated as hostile war mongers from what I have seen. I will say I have taken a different view with Aron. In the past and still I understand many have focused on Necromancers... Well in Thay there are factions that do not care for Necromancers. How many folks tried that angle to approach or view Thay?? How many of you study your Lore? There is an avenue where Thayans could truly benefit by having allies outside their Enclave... At the same time, I wish the DMs represented this as well. As players Necromancers aren't the only way. You want rivalries? Make an Transmutter an Evoker... Diviner? Have that Thayan rivalry carry over. There is mention by some Thayans about the civil war. Want to have a reason to PVP without consequence ... join the Rivalry lol. It is your perspective but not everyones. YOu are playing a Thayan so naturally you would see things differently. As I mentioned each reacts to their own experiences  |
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Post by quelunia on Jul 22, 2017 1:45:23 GMT -5
I think this whole Thayan talk needs perspective. 1357 Thay had a war called the Salamander War, this war raised a guy named Azner Thull to power in Priador forming a relationship with Kossuth. This led to Azner to become the Zulkir of Priador. Szass Tam from that time on found him to be a rival and Azner played the part of rival till his death in 1375. From the end of the Salamander War in 1358 the Thayans have tried hard to change the image of war mongerers to merchants. In fighting at Enclaves and in Thay are just things that happen within the culture. Yes there is slavery. From 1375 to present time Thay has had a civil war Szass Tam trying to solidify all power in Thay behind him, and his rivals banded together in their own camps fighting him where they can when they can. Szass Tam is building a huge undead army to the North of Thay, in secret. So public opinion is not really roleplayed the way it should be in my opinion. Thayans in all actuality for basically the last 30 years have been trying to careful craft an image of giving up on wars and focusing on Trade. The image portrayed to the outside is that they have given up on their old ways and are focusing on being merchants of magic. Are Thayans trusted everywhere? No, but with the Enclave system of trade Thayans are more widely accepted. Yet they are treated as hostile war mongers from what I have seen. I will say I have taken a different view with Aron. In the past and still I understand many have focused on Necromancers... Well in Thay there are factions that do not care for Necromancers. How many folks tried that angle to approach or view Thay?? How many of you study your Lore? There is an avenue where Thayans could truly benefit by having allies outside their Enclave... At the same time, I wish the DMs represented this as well. As players Necromancers aren't the only way. You want rivalries? Make an Transmutter an Evoker... Diviner? Have that Thayan rivalry carry over. There is mention by some Thayans about the civil war. Want to have a reason to PVP without consequence ... join the Rivalry lol. It is your perspective but not everyones. YOu are playing a Thayan so naturally you would see things differently. As I mentioned each reacts to their own experiences While I understand that's what is going on. And it isn't just because I am playing a Thayan. That above is Canon fact. The time frame stuff as well as what the books all say is attempting to be done by the Thayans. That is not my opinion or perspective. The above is Fact. Now, are there characters and valid reasons to not like Thay .. Yes. I am not excluding character concepts that have reason, nor am I saying that everyone should treat Thayans better. I was stating the fact that ... There is Canon reasons that every single Jack and Jill on the server that doesn't know there is a reason to have a different opinion of Thayans than dislike-hostile. Heck I don't even mind the conflict its actually enjoyable to have conflict and rivalry. As a side note Hellscream... I was referring to how Aron thought about Arician, not how I feel about you. |
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Post by erratic1 on Jul 22, 2017 6:34:55 GMT -5
Thayans and their Red mages get their reputation for differing reasons- with the Elves slavery rings a very large warning bell, humans who come from lands near to Thay also have justifiable reactions. If they were not then I'm sure Thayans would be attacked on sight or considered enemies of Cormyr... but they're not and they're allowed to walk Cormyran soil. I've seen some Thayans actually -liked-, so I'm not sure this is all an issue that needs raising. Most Thayan Mages act like pompous bungholes so they get treated accordingly- topped off by the fact that they're Thayans and people lose patience.
Regardless of this I'm not sure how the server has a PVP problem 'cos y'know people hate Thayans. I think there's a deep seated issue in regards to the attitudes people have with their characters and not being able to seperate IC from OOC. Add that with a healthy dose of zero real consequences for actions and you have people thinking their characters can't come to any real harm. On a server that relies heavily on the roleplay it's community creates, issues like these not being resolved properly are always going to hurt the server.
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perspicacity
Proven Member
Those who do not want to imitate anything, produce nothing. -Dali
Posts: 196
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Post by perspicacity on Jul 22, 2017 7:01:18 GMT -5
Thayans and their Red mages get their reputation for differing reasons- with the Elves slavery rings a very large warning bell, humans who come from lands near to Thay also have justifiable reactions. If they were not then I'm sure Thayans would be attacked on sight or considered enemies of Cormyr... but they're not and they're allowed to walk Cormyran soil. I've seen some Thayans actually -liked-, so I'm not sure this is all an issue that needs raising. Most Thayan Mages act like pompous bungholes so they get treated accordingly- topped off by the fact that they're Thayans and people lose patience. "There's little point in discussing enlightened social philosophy with a pig farmer unless you're interested in hearing about the problems of pig farmers." - K. Rvmekova |
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Post by Rane on Jul 22, 2017 13:12:22 GMT -5
I think this whole Thayan talk needs perspective. 1357 Thay had a war called the Salamander War, this war raised a guy named Azner Thull to power in Priador forming a relationship with Kossuth. This led to Azner to become the Zulkir of Priador. Szass Tam from that time on found him to be a rival and Azner played the part of rival till his death in 1375. From the end of the Salamander War in 1358 the Thayans have tried hard to change the image of war mongerers to merchants. In fighting at Enclaves and in Thay are just things that happen within the culture. Yes there is slavery. From 1375 to present time Thay has had a civil war Szass Tam trying to solidify all power in Thay behind him, and his rivals banded together in their own camps fighting him where they can when they can. Szass Tam is building a huge undead army to the North of Thay, in secret. So public opinion is not really roleplayed the way it should be in my opinion. Thayans in all actuality for basically the last 30 years have been trying to careful craft an image of giving up on wars and focusing on Trade. The image portrayed to the outside is that they have given up on their old ways and are focusing on being merchants of magic. Are Thayans trusted everywhere? No, but with the Enclave system of trade Thayans are more widely accepted. Yet they are treated as hostile war mongers from what I have seen. I will say I have taken a different view with Aron. In the past and still I understand many have focused on Necromancers... Well in Thay there are factions that do not care for Necromancers. How many folks tried that angle to approach or view Thay?? How many of you study your Lore? There is an avenue where Thayans could truly benefit by having allies outside their Enclave... At the same time, I wish the DMs represented this as well. As players Necromancers aren't the only way. You want rivalries? Make an Transmutter an Evoker... Diviner? Have that Thayan rivalry carry over. There is mention by some Thayans about the civil war. Want to have a reason to PVP without consequence ... join the Rivalry lol. The public opinion on Thayans still has to do with Sham, and Carek. People loop Sal and other reds in with them and claim we are murderous pvpers. The fact is we have been going to great lengths to change public opinion, and turn the enclave on its head. We are already headed in the direction of independence. |
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Post by bloodalchemist on Jul 22, 2017 14:13:13 GMT -5
Though I am hesitant to further derail this thread further talking about thayan's I think its an important point to keep in mind how people perceive one another in roleplay to understand a servers health.
I'll give you a rundown of Mara's stance on the Proskurr Enclave, as example.
Under Sham's leadership when Mara first arrived on scene shortly after the return of the server, the Enclave was definitely a hub for much of team evil at the time within my knowledge, and due to mass pvp that had happened and other big name murderers fleeing to the enclave as safe haven, it was basically seen as CE in my early days, operating not with trade or politics but as a source of chaos and corruption in cormyr's western border, working to weaken or at least disrupt that side of the country not through trade or manipulation but with sword and fire.
Fast forward a few years, 2-3 ago and you still have this going on with each new cycle of Thayans. Almost all of them outside a notable few such as Ahmed and Katernin, were well known pvpers and fairly open about their mustachios and the evil of said facial hair as they twirled it most skillfully. Salazar came on scene about this time iirc and became a more public figure head of the enclave. Murders still happened, killers still fled to the enclave to hide, but now with less active protection from said leader. Salazar took an important position in Valkur's Roar, which many in Mara's social circle when combined with other parties power and influence over the city, basically just made the entire city unpalatable from an in character position. For as much progress Salazar may have made towards stopping the murderous tendencies of his people, murders still happened, and were very public and over trivial reasons, such as one thayan knight's murder of someone for talking smack about thayans being chaotic, murderous nutjobs, basically cyricists as a whole, and decided to thus confirm these accusations by going bugfuck crazy and murdering people.
The Enclave in Marsember while much quieter and fewer people trying to bring it alive with rp, has in Mara's opinion a much better crop of Thayans. More likely to be merchants than the worst Thay has to get rid of, they can at least be bargained with and dealt with in a businesslike manner, albiet one should still be wary of them.
So, back to ooc side. Opinion's do change but they are a lot easier to ruin and once a communities trust has been destroyed enough, it is going to be a long arduous slog back to even neutral territory. And from the stories of stuff that went on before even the server vault being lost, frc has a long long history of very public CE thayan's and I doubt that stain on the reputation will go ever away entirely.
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Post by Rane on Jul 22, 2017 15:26:46 GMT -5
Though I am hesitant to further derail this thread further talking about thayan's I think its an important point to keep in mind how people perceive one another in roleplay to understand a servers health. I'll give you a rundown of Mara's stance on the Proskurr Enclave, as example. Under Sham's leadership when Mara first arrived on scene shortly after the return of the server, the Enclave was definitely a hub for much of team evil at the time within my knowledge, and due to mass pvp that had happened and other big name murderers fleeing to the enclave as safe haven, it was basically seen as CE in my early days, operating not with trade or politics but as a source of chaos and corruption in cormyr's western border, working to weaken or at least disrupt that side of the country not through trade or manipulation but with sword and fire. Fast forward a few years, 2-3 ago and you still have this going on with each new cycle of Thayans. Almost all of them outside a notable few such as Ahmed and Katernin, were well known pvpers and fairly open about their mustachios and the evil of said facial hair as they twirled it most skillfully. Salazar came on scene about this time iirc and became a more public figure head of the enclave. Murders still happened, killers still fled to the enclave to hide, but now with less active protection from said leader. Salazar took an important position in Valkur's Roar, which many in Mara's social circle when combined with other parties power and influence over the city, basically just made the entire city unpalatable from an in character position. For as much progress Salazar may have made towards stopping the murderous tendencies of his people, murders still happened, and were very public and over trivial reasons, such as one thayan knight's murder of someone for talking smack about thayans being chaotic, murderous nutjobs, basically cyricists as a whole, and decided to thus confirm these accusations by going bugfuck crazy and murdering people. The Enclave in Marsember while much quieter and fewer people trying to bring it alive with rp, has in Mara's opinion a much better crop of Thayans. More likely to be merchants than the worst Thay has to get rid of, they can at least be bargained with and dealt with in a businesslike manner, albiet one should still be wary of them. So, back to ooc side. Opinion's do change but they are a lot easier to ruin and once a communities trust has been destroyed enough, it is going to be a long arduous slog back to even neutral territory. And from the stories of stuff that went on before even the server vault being lost, frc has a long long history of very public CE thayan's and I doubt that stain on the reputation will go ever away entirely. I never said it would go away, just said we are actively working on it. And noone can deny things are a lot different now. And the valkurs Roar promotion of Salazar was entirely in character. |
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Post by erratic1 on Jul 22, 2017 19:35:48 GMT -5
Actually, raneearendur, that's actually fairly accurrate to the canon situation in regards to Thayans and their reputation so I'd say if that's how it is then it's pretty much spot on. No issues with that here IMO, and they're definitely not all the root causes of evil and problems with pvp.
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Post by gamer025 on Jun 2, 2022 0:14:31 GMT -5
I agree with some things:
If you log into a PvP server, you consent to RP PvP.
If you don't want to PvP, play on another server.
It's just a game.
Also, I've never understand why some people are so against PvP. This is a game. Your character will get beat up, and/or die. It's a fantasy world full of danger. PvP shouldn't be personal, or taken personally. Mature people should be able to play a game with full PvP without any problems. If someone doesn't like PvP, they can play characters that will get into trouble with other characters. PvP should be avoidable through RP. And lastly: it's just a game.
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shadou
Proven Member
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Post by shadou on Jun 6, 2022 21:22:27 GMT -5
Another month and 21 days and you could have necro'd a 5 year dead thread. Almost there. Wait just a *little* bit longer next time.
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