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Post by Malzaron on Jul 20, 2017 19:46:10 GMT -5
I am just pointing out what I have seen in masses. I rarely see a challenge being made any more . Ive only seen a handful and they rather go more smoothly than sneak attacks. However why should we not be able to do that ? Those types of attacks are apart of peoples characters just as much as challenging them out right. An assassin isnt going to say "hey brute face lets dance" most of the time. They are gonna find ways to bring them down a notch that lead to their favor. People who hide their truest natures dont murder people when others are looking.
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Post by Animayhem on Jul 20, 2017 19:50:55 GMT -5
The whole problem lately is people in my opinion are acting like children, wanting to kill over words. Killing and combat is not the only pvpv but yet it seems it is. As I mentioned you murder and alone an there are no witnesses you are screwed.. You cannot bring charges do to death anmesia soa killer can go on killing.
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Post by Southpaw on Jul 20, 2017 20:14:45 GMT -5
To me, it's the pettiness of the issues people kill over. If my character gets caught trying to pick pocket your journal of secret evil plans, I expect to get rolled in the dirt. Looking at you funny? When you've got a journal full of secret evil plans in your pack if you get searched by the law? Not so much.
For a red wizard in particular, whacking every character who talks crap about Thay is like a Soviet era spy killing every American who badmouths the USSR (all 50 million of them) and expecting their cover to never get blown when they have global level agendas at stake. An assassin whacking every character who "talks crap"about them is like a mob hitman whacking everyone who says, "Mobsters are bad, don't be like that." There's 3 million school teachers on your hit list. Whack them all, get away with 3 million murders, and we'll talk about killing everyone who "talks crap" about you.
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Post by Malzaron on Jul 20, 2017 22:25:18 GMT -5
To me, it's the pettiness of the issues people kill over. If my character gets caught trying to pick pocket your journal of secret evil plans, I expect to get rolled in the dirt. Looking at you funny? When you've got a journal full of secret evil plans in your pack if you get searched by the law? Not so much. For a red wizard in particular, whacking every character who talks crap about Thay is like a Soviet era spy killing every American who badmouths the USSR (all 50 million of them) and expecting their cover to never get blown when they have global level agendas at stake. An assassin whacking every character who "talks crap"about them is like a mob hitman whacking everyone who says, "Mobsters are bad, don't be like that." There's 3 million school teachers on your hit list. Whack them all, get away with 3 million murders, and we'll talk about killing everyone who "talks crap" about you. lol , first off im not advocating killing everyone who talks crap about you . Maybe he had an off day and that day he just "feels" like killing that particular person. It happens all the time in everyday life. Thayans walk the street and on thayan soil people look down and the streets go quiet . To a thayan on thayan soil if you look at them the wrong way they will kill you without a single side thought. In cormyr sure Im not gonna go around killing everyone because of the laws in place. So dont generalize them into modern real life governments when they are completely different. malzaron doesnt go around killing people on a whim . But on thayan soil ? yes malzaron without a doubt would kill someone for looking or saying something out of the way towards him . Also, A red wizard isnt a spy so it doesnt correlate. They have their own agendas and work on their own accord. It would simply be like a russian coming over and getting pissed off at an american for being rude and disrespectful to his homeland. To the point he would want to kill said person . Take the extremist for example if you want to go your route. But malzaron isnt like that and wouldnt kill "everyone" he would let some comments slide but over time a patience wears thin and a highly intelligent character would find a way to kill someone without being caught. If your looking for a reference pg 65 of lords of darkness " on thayan soil " section.
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Post by quelunia on Jul 21, 2017 4:26:46 GMT -5
The whole problem lately is people in my opinion are acting like children, wanting to kill over words. Killing and combat is not the only pvpv but yet it seems it is. As I mentioned you murder and alone an there are no witnesses you are screwed.. You cannot bring charges do to death anmesia soa killer can go on killing. I will agree killing over words is over the top, as is just wanton killing with only the point of showing off. However when the words keep coming repeatedly ... and with the lack of Intimidate rolls and what not being allowed to affect things... You have an evil, a Thayan a Talos Priest... you have a whole lot of folks that get ribbed often enough... Something has to give. Assassins strike from a point of advantage and are elusive. Just as a point of fact. Now the Roleplay involved to bring about a death is rewarded by more of the same due to frustration over being killed ... In reality if you were killed in the woods with no witnesses... The character should be dead ... not back up walking around. As a point of fact. Since this is a game and there is a no perma death rule the frustration mounts. That is due to no fault of the attacker. I can agree there are poor reasons and good reasons for PVP. But honestly with out perma death PVP will always be an option. Since it doesn't do what it should there are issues. Since often times if an evil attempts to intimidate ... or RP something to that effect ... it gets ignored... and guess what... after enough times of poking the lion in the cage someone gets bit. That is the way of things. No one is just going to stand there and let BS crap talk go on forever. There is another point to be made here as well. If evil are in an area and you choose to poke at them the option once you see your not going anywhere is to leave. BEFORE a charge of instigation under the laws of cormyr can be made against the crap talker. More evils need to do more reporting of that honestly. *eyes Shiv*
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Post by Razgriz on Jul 21, 2017 5:36:03 GMT -5
Pffft... Really? Kill on thayan soil or the wilds?
Just do it in Greatgaunt since you have always been untouchable. Chances are the militia will only intervene if someone tries to stop you.
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Post by Southpaw on Jul 21, 2017 7:07:11 GMT -5
To me, it's the pettiness of the issues people kill over. If my character gets caught trying to pick pocket your journal of secret evil plans, I expect to get rolled in the dirt. Looking at you funny? When you've got a journal full of secret evil plans in your pack if you get searched by the law? Not so much. For a red wizard in particular, whacking every character who talks crap about Thay is like a Soviet era spy killing every American who badmouths the USSR (all 50 million of them) and expecting their cover to never get blown when they have global level agendas at stake. An assassin whacking every character who "talks crap"about them is like a mob hitman whacking everyone who says, "Mobsters are bad, don't be like that." There's 3 million school teachers on your hit list. Whack them all, get away with 3 million murders, and we'll talk about killing everyone who "talks crap" about you. lol , first off im not advocating killing everyone who talks crap about you . Maybe he had an off day and that day he just "feels" like killing that particular person. It happens all the time in everyday life. Thayans walk the street and on thayan soil people look down and the streets go quiet . To a thayan on thayan soil if you look at them the wrong way they will kill you without a single side thought. In cormyr sure Im not gonna go around killing everyone because of the laws in place. So dont generalize them into modern real life governments when they are completely different. malzaron doesnt go around killing people on a whim . But on thayan soil ? yes malzaron without a doubt would kill someone for looking or saying something out of the way towards him . Also, A red wizard isnt a spy so it doesnt correlate. They have their own agendas and work on their own accord. It would simply be like a russian coming over and getting pissed off at an american for being rude and disrespectful to his homeland. To the point he would want to kill said person . Take the extremist for example if you want to go your route. But malzaron isnt like that and wouldnt kill "everyone" he would let some comments slide but over time a patience wears thin and a highly intelligent character would find a way to kill someone without being caught. If your looking for a reference pg 65 of lords of darkness " on thayan soil " section. I can buy most of that. And I honestly didn't mean to single you out, I've just seen the, "He talked crap to me" routine enough times that it feels old. If my comment reflects on you in any way it's that I have enough respect for you as a player to know you can take things to a higher level of RP than that. (And yes, I realize you don't exactly talk crap to yourself and then whack people over it, it's started on the other side.) That being said, though, it would be kinda cool to see some more of other conflicts going around the server that actually mean something.
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Post by Malzaron on Jul 21, 2017 8:03:12 GMT -5
Well hopefully if I can get some rp off the ground I may be able to get some conflicts going with other groups . Not so much pvp oriented but rp based tug of war on contract/ changing of the guards type stuff. Thanks to a recent trial there's oh so common red wizard dispute going on . I'm definitely trying to cook up ideas that are so pvp driven and more story line driven to pvp if you catch my meaning .
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Post by Southpaw on Jul 21, 2017 8:14:34 GMT -5
Well hopefully if I can get some rp off the ground I may be able to get some conflicts going with other groups . Not so much pvp oriented but rp based tug of war on contract/ changing of the guards type stuff. Thanks to a recent trial there's oh so common red wizard dispute going on . I'm definitely trying to cook up ideas that are so pvp driven and more story line driven to pvp if you catch my meaning . Looks like we might meet in the middle.
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Post by erratic1 on Jul 21, 2017 8:47:02 GMT -5
Conflicts that mean something are usually long term roleplay projects that have been given time and patience to nurture- and we're just not seeing that now. Everyone is just far too quick to jump the gun and jump straight into pvp. As long as this keeps happening then long term character conflicts that have genuine meaning that last are not going to happen. With consequences (or lack of them) are as they are and the way that the current rules are policed (IC and OOC) then these issues aren't going to change.
In regards to buffing before combat- If someone who was at odds with my PC and was near my character that started "buffing up" then i'd have no problems at all doing likewise or acting aggressively depending on the situation. Buffing up isn't a passive action and you don't have to act passively- this is common sense. Taking countering action is not metagaming, as you do not have any ooc knowledge to use in these situations.
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Post by Animayhem on Jul 21, 2017 9:47:14 GMT -5
First of all Marister does not constantly talk smak about Malzaron or Thayans in general unless its with others elsewhere. Most when Malz is around, Marister usually ignores Malz. Now that that's out of the way.
Kudos to Shiv and Holance who are not afraid to publically rp and PVP. Shiv follows a Fury and his god does not take crap. Shiv defends his friends and his beliefs with the fervor akin to a paladin but without the restrictions. Holance follows his code above all else as well even if it makes him seen in a bad light as Shiv.
Disclaimer: The following is an overview of how both Marister would see the situations as well as I see with the mechanics.
In an earlier conflict between Shiv and Holance, Shiv was attacking Abii in revenge for her killing Mystogan, a friend of his so he was acting ic . Holance who as a proven dislike for Shiv's actions stepped in to protect the "damsel in distress" as he was acting ic.
Now the part about the perceived bias in the law. Holance killed Shiv and a "trial'" was held but without the chief witness who was dead. Because Shiv was Shiv and Holance the Red Ravens vindicated Holance actions and he was freed and Shiv was later raised.
In what is a parallel event between Shiv and Holance, both antagonists are alive and in jail.
My opinion as player and also as Marister
Now back to the first. A trial should not have been done then and there without Shiv being raised. Both Shiv and Holance should have been jailed until a proper date has been set like the current conflict.
What should of been done(again my opinion) is Shiv should of been raised and been allowed to give his side. Yes he would have death amnesia from Holance killing him, but he would not have amnesia in regards to his attack on Abii, because there were witnesses. Shiv could of been asked why he attacked her. Then a proper trial or investigation could of been started and maybe had prevented a lot of what some see as *chickenwing* pvp lately.
I will not or cannot say if offered Shiv would speak up as that is not my right and would be metagaming a player's action. All I am saying is at least the offer should of been made.
Also on regards to Cassius and Abii prior to the new onslaught of mayhem, warnings were given yet the "authorities" again ignored warnings.
In game killing another is against the law and should be reported. Yet with the OOC death amnesia the victim can not file a complaint of a law being broken.
Now from what I understand, the death amnesia was to prevent an continuing cycle of vengeance PVP. I gather from that that it seemed to be a player or maybe more abusing it.
Death amnesia in my opinion is a failure as it does continue the cycle of PVP as long as a killer kills someone with no witnesses about they can continue to kill at leisure. Why? Because this is a PVP consent server and has long as they hostile you they are covered.
Saying NPC's like Bentin and such are witnesses is bogus as they do not react which they easily can if scripted. This scripting would ease a lot of tensions as the actions would be recorded and witnessed in game and would be on the server logs for dms to read. It would also reduce the burden of dm's having to come on as police all the time, either watching in the shadows or controlling npc's as thatis the only recourse a victim has who was killed with no witnesses other than themselves and the killer.
Respectfully submitted.
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Post by Razgriz on Jul 21, 2017 10:03:02 GMT -5
Holance's actions were vindicated that time, because the PvP was still unfolding and Shiv was not able to kill Abii yet. Thus, it was not "avenging" in accordance to the laws.
Even so, aggressors in general are given huge advantages as it is. Not only they can strike fully buffed, at any moment, but now it turns out no one should intervene between them and their prey.
If someone does, they then are considered by the law just as bad as the aggressor, that for some reason is still protected by the very law he/she is breaking. It is ridiculous, it is unfair and it makes no sense. For all I care, anyone that initiates PvP should be free game. Enough consdierations are already given to them on top of death amnesia.
The burden of PvP as it has been said, should always be on the aggressor, not on the victim and not on those trying to defend said victim. If the victim died, all the more reason to stop the killer right at the spot.
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Post by Calliope on Jul 21, 2017 11:11:24 GMT -5
Pvp is such a pile lol,
It isn't balanced, it usually ends poorly OOC, and it often punishes the victim with a loss of Xp/Gp even though the victim might have invested quality RP with the other player. People should be rewarded for RP, not punished.
The more I get involved in PVP the more I come to find that people lack the maturity to handle things OOC. Drama almost always ensues. Just a few weeks ago my PvP target switched characters and murdered me in the streets of gaunt in retaliation. . Yes I have logs, yes I have screen shots, but -no- I will not share them. I don't want to continue the spread of drama. Couple years ago a higher level character turned and murdered me in a split second without so much as a single word, emote, toggle to hostile, or anything just because I farted as I passed him on the road to Roar. Last time I ever try to play a stinky low charisma dwarf LOL. Another time a few years ago I killed a character and he instantly sent me a tell saying, "I'm gonna get you for that!". Drama drama drama. . . Probably a good half of all the PVP I engage in ends up in Drama, rule breaking, and immaturity. I keep getting accused of breaking rules when I kill people, I keep getting accused of not having IC motives to support my actions, It's just not very fun lol. I'm not even gonna get into the whole mess of an IC legal system Cormyr has.
Despite all of the negative though I still would really like to see PVP continue to exist without the need for consent. -But- I really think that the best thing to do for pretty much everyone even if you don't need consent is to talk to the other player first and hash things out. The majority of the time you're probably gonna find out that the other player is not capable of handling PvP and you'll have to take your RP else where but hey, you'll save yourself a world of grief.
Consent shouldn't be required but I strongly encouraged people to seek consent anyway.
<3 -Calliope
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Post by Rane on Jul 21, 2017 15:07:21 GMT -5
What is pvp?
Not but seriously. *massive sigh*
I'm going to add my two cents and then retreat and not respond, because we all know my opinion is about as popular as Donald Trump is to a UC Berkley student...
There have been several points made here. One such point is that pvp "most of the time" comes from people talking crap to a villain.
I have played here for a while and have seen this play out often. I think a lot of you are having trouble realizing that these issues are not one extreme or the other... They are typically complicated.
The war of words often sparks pvp, but it can either be a long term ordeal, a short term, or maybe the character that attacked you just wasn't having it that day. This ties in with "the burden of pvp should always be on the aggressor."
That's just a pile of poop. What that is saying is that "I can do whatever I want, and if someone attacks me, then it's all on and up to them."
It doesn't make sense. "Every action has an equal and opposite reaction"
A very smart man once said that. And it's true. If you don't like pvp, then I suggest you better learn how to pick your battles. Words do get people killed. Did you know more people have died in the name of religion than any other reason? Hence people dying over words.
In the Forgotten Realms we have hundreds of religions, many of them openly against each other.
We also have alignments which dictate in some fashion a person's reaction to your baiting.
So yes... if you talk crap some people are going to kill you. And that's not their burden, it's yours for deeming yourself brave enough to initiate the conversation that led to your own demise.
Moving on. The Holance thing.
I lose on this server all of the time. Well most of the time I lose on the forum after someone else loses in the game.... but i'll avoid that topic for now....
I think the Holance situation is good. Nothing against Merc himself, but we and I mean evil players of course: have sat around for years watching the good guys or self proclaimed elitists, tell us how to roleplay and demand that reactions to pvp be more harsh.
Now that the good guy is caught, everyone is angry at the pvp outcome, saying it is to harsh.
It's almost like some people want things to be harsh unless it is them.
I'm not going to dive into Holances current internment to much, but I will say that it is being handled appropriately. No verdict has been given yet so I do think people need to calm down.
Someone above said something about evil players being untouchable.
HA! Is all i'll say to that. Anyway i'm done with this thread. See you all in game.
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Post by Razgriz on Jul 21, 2017 15:26:52 GMT -5
Did not Kross escape the time he summoned Grues in GG?
Did not Kross and his gang escape to the enclave the time Bentin saw how they were attemtping to sell purple dragon fingers in Greatgaunt?
The only time time Kross was caught was because you guys assaulted a building next to the War Wizard HQ in the capital of the kingdom. So your argument is invalid. PvP as it is right now favors the aggressors more than anyone else, even where they should be at a disadvantage.
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Post by Rane on Jul 21, 2017 15:33:54 GMT -5
Did not Kross escape the time he summoned Grues in GG? Did not Kross and his gang escape to the enclave the time Bentin saw how they were attemtping to sell purple dragon fingers in Greatgaunt? The only time time Kross was caught was because you guys assaulted a building next to the War Wizard HQ in the capital of the kingdom. So your argument is invalid. PvP as it is right now favors the aggressors more than anyone else, even where they should be at a disadvantage. See now I have to respond. Bentin is not all seeing, and actually was not around during the time of the grue attack. Kross didn't ever try to sell purple dragon fingers you're confused. Kross was attacked by good players on several occasions without provocation in greatgaunt. Sorry man you are ill informed. And that was years ago.
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Post by Razgriz on Jul 21, 2017 15:39:15 GMT -5
Did not Kross escape the time he summoned Grues in GG? Did not Kross and his gang escape to the enclave the time Bentin saw how they were attemtping to sell purple dragon fingers in Greatgaunt? The only time time Kross was caught was because you guys assaulted a building next to the War Wizard HQ in the capital of the kingdom. So your argument is invalid. PvP as it is right now favors the aggressors more than anyone else, even where they should be at a disadvantage. See now I have to respond. Bentin is not all seeing, and actually was not around during the time of the grue attack. Kross didn't ever try to sell purple dragon fingers you're confused. Kross was attacked by good players on several occasions without provocation in greatgaunt. Sorry man you are ill informed. And that was years ago. I was there during the grue attack and I know what I saw. No guard (represented or not) did anything to stop Kross. He just slughtered everyone present and not even a warrant was issued. Kross may have not sold them, but his goons were there and some other evils as well. I can name them all if you wish. Mobius, Zuraxas, Deliverance and more.
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Post by Rane on Jul 21, 2017 15:40:15 GMT -5
See now I have to respond. Bentin is not all seeing, and actually was not around during the time of the grue attack. Kross didn't ever try to sell purple dragon fingers you're confused. Kross was attacked by good players on several occasions without provocation in greatgaunt. Sorry man you are ill informed. And that was years ago. I was there during the grue attack and I know what I saw. No guard (represented or not) did anything to stop Kross. He just alughtered eberyone present and not even a warrant was issued. Kross may have not sold them, but his goons were there and some other evils as well. I can name them all if you wish. Mobius, Zuraxas, Deliverance and more. Holance died inside of the inn. You saw very little, and amnesia erased what little there was.
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Post by Razgriz on Jul 21, 2017 15:41:42 GMT -5
My point is that the guards could not overpower him with numbers. Thus the most recent DM Q&A basically contradicts that fact.
"If you perfrom PvP in town, expect to be caught"
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Post by Rane on Jul 21, 2017 15:46:44 GMT -5
My point is that the guards could not overpower him with numbers. Thus the most recent DM Q&A basically contradicts that fact. "If you perfrom PvP in town, expect to be caught" There was rp involved is my point. The guards where busy elsewhere. But I guess you're right man there is no possible way for someone to assault a small village -_-
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blink
Proven Member
Resident lurker.
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Post by blink on Jul 21, 2017 15:53:46 GMT -5
Kross and Zachary attack Greatgaunt basically unhindered. Hackmaster was online during that time, so I suppose I can see why there was no interference. Leorick and Rythorn try to assault Greatgaunt with balors, and the Arabel Militia - I mean, Greatgaunt militia, consisting of lvl 40 fighters show up to stop them. Not exactly sure who was uptop that time.
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When goodly aligned folks engage in PvP, more specifically, 'initiate' PvP, I think they should have more to lose than evil aligned folks. - Not to say that Holance in this circumstance should have much to lose, since he came to someone's aid, instead of seeking out a head in cold blood.
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Post by Razgriz on Jul 21, 2017 15:53:50 GMT -5
My point is that the guards could not overpower him with numbers. Thus the most recent DM Q&A basically contradicts that fact. "If you perfrom PvP in town, expect to be caught" There was rp involved is my point. The guards where busy elsewhere. But I guess you're right man there is no possible way for someone to assault a small village -_- So the entire garrison was busy elsewhere? Yeah, sure no DM help for your success there. Greatgaunt is small in game, but not so much in canon.
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Post by Rane on Jul 21, 2017 15:57:27 GMT -5
There was rp involved is my point. The guards where busy elsewhere. But I guess you're right man there is no possible way for someone to assault a small village -_- So the entire garrison was busy elsewhere? Yeah, sure no DM help for your success there. Greatgaunt is small in game, but not so much in canon. Look man you don't have to worry about me or hash up 5 year old drama. I don't pvp hardly at all anymore because you and your goons defeated me with threads like this on the forum. I think you are mad you suffered a loss and you need to chill. Kross is gone his story unfinished and Holance will be back, so don't preach to me how you have it so much worse.
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Post by Razgriz on Jul 21, 2017 16:07:56 GMT -5
So the entire garrison was busy elsewhere? Yeah, sure no DM help for your success there. Greatgaunt is small in game, but not so much in canon. Look man you don't have to worry about me or hash up 5 year old drama. I don't pvp hardly at all anymore because you and your goons defeated me with threads like this on the forum. I think you are mad you suffered a loss and you need to chill. Kross is gone his story unfinished and Holance will be back, so don't preach to me how you have it so much worse. I have nothing against you, Im just pointing out that there is a lack of consistency with how things are handled and it is not fair. ... Who says Holance will be back? He would have been betrayed by the very people he has bleed and died for. Apparently, he for some reason is as bad as those who murder in cold blood over bark of a tree. It is hard enough already and one requires a certain mindset to try and portray a paladin properly, but now it seems the class is bound to lose or face consequences for doing what it should be doing. All because PvP ends when the one the paladin is trying to protect dies and thus the paladin risks becoming a murderer.
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Post by Rane on Jul 21, 2017 16:14:52 GMT -5
Look man you don't have to worry about me or hash up 5 year old drama. I don't pvp hardly at all anymore because you and your goons defeated me with threads like this on the forum. I think you are mad you suffered a loss and you need to chill. Kross is gone his story unfinished and Holance will be back, so don't preach to me how you have it so much worse. I have nothing against you, Im just pointing out that there is a lack of consistency with how things are handled and it is not fair. ... Who says Holance will be back? He would have been betrayed by the very people he has bleed and died for. Apparently, he for some reason is as bad as those who murder in cold blood over bark of a tree. It is hard enough already and one requires a certain mindset to try and portray a paladin properly, but now it seems the class is bound to lose or face consequences for doing what it should be doing. All because PvP ends when the one the paladin is trying to protect dies and thus the paladin risks becoming a murderer. Well I don't think Holance should go. I think he should use this instance to champion what you are preaching on the forums. Things need change.
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Post by bloodalchemist on Jul 21, 2017 16:16:40 GMT -5
Just hopping on to point out, this whole thread, and all of the recent discussions, including those many players had at once with some staff members in game, have been about pvp over the years. People can only bring up past occurrences as evidence for either events that were handled well, or mishandled. You can't just say "Don't use my character's actions as reference to the issues surrounding mass pvp, that happened years ago."
Likewise, the whole idea of "So yes... if you talk crap some people are going to kill you. And that's not their burden, it's yours for deeming yourself brave enough to initiate the conversation that led to your own demise."
Just...sigh. It's why I appreciate Zodika and the evils like her cause you get into an argument with them and actually have a chance to duel with words, debating ideologies, arguing politics and so forth. What you basically said in that statement is absolutely not accurate for cormyr, canon or this version of cormyr. I know the setting arguments for after the wars and blah blah blah, but what you are basically saying is. Evil is going to kill you if you speak out against them, they're going to kill you for pulling funny faces at them, they are going to kill you for wearing the wrong perfume on tuesday. But if the dm controlling npc's finally arrests your ass, we can expect the state to let you escape at least once, then bring you up on a lengthy trial where you can defend yourself and possibly get off free, then get executed only to show up 4 hours later and rinse and repeat.
Feels like we're playing in bloody thay where the red wizards just have the legal powers to kill anyone they want and everyone else has to put in the work to try and stop them after the fact, working against an entire system that punishes good and lawful alignment's more harshly do to the nature of their characters respect for law and good. Even in LN Cormyr that seems utterly freaking bizarre.
Again, the system obviously isnt working because this same convo keeps coming up at least once a year for the last what...6-7 years i have been here? The whole wild west handling of pvp, everyone making personal judgements on how the law will react or not react, is not working. It's leaving people bitter ooc enemies and continues to alienate people to an otherwise RP focused server.
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Post by Rane on Jul 21, 2017 16:18:34 GMT -5
Just hopping on to point out, this whole thread, and all of the recent discussions, including those many players had at once with some staff members in game, have been about pvp over the years. People can only bring up past occurrences as evidence for either events that were handled well, or mishandled. You can't just say "Don't use my character's actions as reference to the issues surrounding mass pvp, that happened years ago." Likewise, the whole idea of "So yes... if you talk crap some people are going to kill you. And that's not their burden, it's yours for deeming yourself brave enough to initiate the conversation that led to your own demise." Just...sigh. It's why I appreciate Zodika and the evils like her cause you get into an argument with them and actually have a chance to duel with words, debating ideologies, arguing politics and so forth. What you basically said in that statement is absolutely not accurate for cormyr, canon or this version of cormyr. I know the setting arguments for after the wars and blah blah blah, but what you are basically saying is. Evil is going to kill you if you speak out against them, they're going to kill you for pulling funny faces at them, they are going to kill you for wearing the wrong perfume on tuesday. But if the dm controlling npc's finally arrests your ass, we can expect the state to let you escape at least once, then bring you up on a lengthy trial where you can defend yourself and possibly get off free, then get executed only to show up 4 hours later and rinse and repeat. Feels like we're playing in bloody thay where the red wizards just have the legal powers to kill anyone they want and everyone else has to put in the work to try and stop them after the fact, working against an entire system that punishes good and lawful alignment's more harshly do to the nature of their characters respect for law and good. Even in LN Cormyr that seems utterly freaking bizarre. Again, the system obviously isnt working because this same convo keeps coming up at least once a year for the last what...6-7 years i have been here? The whole wild west handling of pvp, everyone making personal judgements on how the law will react or not react, is not working. It's leaving people bitter ooc enemies and continues to alienate people to an otherwise RP focused server. I agree that death and or capture should have longer lasting consequences. Which is why Kross is gone.
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Post by Calliope on Jul 21, 2017 17:05:44 GMT -5
IMO aggressors have a hell of a time,
Reason? Caravans, teleportation, and the fact that people have an unrealistic obsession with spending the majority of their time in an open square filled with NPC's and gaurds in a town called Great Gaunt. Pvp is basically restricted by the system to guarded cities full of witnesses and the law. The same system that restricts players to pvping mostly in towns then punishes them for doing so.
People rarely travel by foot until after they caravan hop with 100% impunity to the closest town to the dungeon they wanna travel to. Most aggressors don't really want to pvp in town but we have to because that's where the people usually are. I'm not gonna caravan after someone from Gaunt to Roar to Suzial, to the docks, and then to Thunderstone so that I can catch them in the Hullack. . . That'd be silly. Not to mention many consider it bad manner to jump people in a dungeon while they're busy fighting orcs or a dragon or something. I'd love to be able to catch people outside of town more but it's just not very likely given the system we have.
If this was PnP I would have a DM at the ready to help me track my target down or I could wait on the road for travelers and be a highway robber. I could scry or use some other form of divination to locate them. There's soo many more options. But this is not PNP and I have time limitations and can't spend all day on a road side waiting to run into another player because I have a real life to tend to.
I could silently pick the lock to your inn room while you slept and gut you but sleeping takes all of 10 seconds so unless I'm turbo quick on the draw I'd miss my opportunity. Besides, my target would probably accuse me of metagaming or breaking some other rule. The doors can't be picked with the open lock skill so I have to buy a key and they'd probably say that the inn keeper wouldn't have sold me a key to a room that was already in use. There'd be a lot of back and forth drama and what not and then I'd get reported and the other player would hate me forever and on and on... Waste of time.
I could pop up in your dungeon and inviso gank you in the back while you face tank a dragon. . . But you'd probably say it was metagaming that I knew what dungeon you where in or you'd say that it was messed up of me to ruin your venture.
Oh, and if you PvP there is a good chance that you'd get labeled as a bady and then you can't show your face anywhere with out getting constant hate. If you get caught by the law and banished from Gaunt then you've basically just been OOC sentenced to be a lonely soloer who can't find RP anymore cus everyone is in Gaunt.
Anyway, I'm feeling a bit ranty XD. . Point is aggressors actually do have a hard time. -Everyone- has a hard time! The system screws us all over, good and evil.
<3 -Calliope
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Mysto
Old School
I'm Batmage.
Zombies, Skeletons, and Positive Vibes..
Posts: 539
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Post by Mysto on Jul 21, 2017 17:28:52 GMT -5
I usually stay out of things like this, just causes more headaches than solving anything. I know this necromancer wants to rampage on a few *cough* ..holance.. but PvP should be fun or at least decent, we don't have to be asses to one another..
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Post by quelunia on Jul 21, 2017 18:57:38 GMT -5
PVP like it or not has a base in Role play. I just don't know how many times I can say that. This is all based on one player that is a serial killer. Its still Role play. The only problem with it is that once dead ... the respawn button gets hit and the hard feelings fester. I agree there are changes that can be made, however... I don't think that consent is or should be an option. There are things in Role play that lead to someone becoming a target. And that like it or not is based on a two way street where at a time they intersect. When that happens... There should not be crying and complaining. You were having fun leading up to it.. the other person was having fun leading up to it ... all the sudden ... Guess what... one looses the other walks away. Instead of rewarding the winner the respawn and right back at it .. but complaining. It is ridiculous to even think that consent will change anything all it will do is embolden weaker characters to talk tougher and leave evils or offended people frustrated. That is far from fair.
I agree there are some things that could change for PVP to make it more fair. But at the same time I am not for crippling an assassin from being able to do its job. I might even support only characters with assassin levels can perform a true assassination. It would open up avenues for RP. It helps others utilize their characters. I have said before pre buff before an attack need to be limited somehow. I don't think they should come up and say hey lets duel ... I think they should be allowed that chance to strike from a superior position. This applies to characters with assassin levels I mean. As for private matters between characters like my character doesn't like yours... we are going to settle this... I think that end of it could be worked and rules fixed.
I still say also many problems with the PVP come from folks saying they have a RP build and others have PVP or efficiently built for environment. There are methods that do work to fix this like setting level limits to take if you dip a class. I mean say fighter weapon master rogue... if you dip rogue you must take five levels of each class and you once starting the new class cant take another till you have at least five. This would cause a lot of things to change. The decision to take a class becomes more important. It also places everyone else to in that position. Making RP builds and PVP builds an irrelevant term. Its either worth it in RP to take a class of it isn't. Many people try to boost fast then RP when they hit a certain level of personal power to enforce their characters vision. This is just wrong. Most of us in a few months can hit level 14-17 If the server was capped at 20 level then Most everyone would be on par with each other making this whole situation of epics killing way lower levels irrelevant as well. There are fixes that do make sense. And ideas. Are they popular no. I can tell you now though a consent rule for PVP is just nuts, it forces the game to go from IC decisions and actions into a OOC likeability or receptiveness. So at that point PVP goes from being RP related to OOC considerations. That is completely against the rules to use OOC knowledge to affect IC actions. Its called MEtagaming.
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