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Post by Booze Hound on Sept 29, 2011 23:51:24 GMT -5
Though True seeing can see invis, I have a feeling that MANY people are going to go invis and buff anyway.
//There will be very few situations where someone can cast Greater Sanctuary against a bunch of fighters cause...they are in a fighter brawl.
Bigby's Forceful hand is Banned. So as of right now the banned list is
Time Stop Bigby's Forceful Hand Healing
the jury (me) is still out on GS.
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sandcastles
Proven Member
A kingdom to crumble.
Posts: 111
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Post by sandcastles on Sept 29, 2011 23:52:12 GMT -5
// There are pvp spells you can cast from greater sanc that do not break greater sanc, though as I believe it is a bug, I'm not going to voice it aloud.
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Post by erratic1 on Sept 29, 2011 23:55:23 GMT -5
My characters aren't going to enter- as both of my characters dislike attacking people they know, non-fatal or not, so I'm going to say what I think would be the best for the event, and hopefully people won't accuse me of being biased one way or another!
I'd seriously consider pushing GS onto the banned list again. This spell can make things drag out for a long time, and all the good reasons you mentioned for banning it in the first place, Boozehound, have not gone away. Allowing this spell will set the scene of a mage casting it, then stack up buffs behind it's protective shield. If the caster puts up a mantle first, then they'll be invulnerable, almost, until they choose to end the spell and attack something. Spamming Banshee wails isn't going to work if the caster behind sanc also pops up shadow shield- and that's a given really with most casters knowing their death spells. Also a level 21 caster doesn't have -that- much of a disadvantage against a level 25 or 26 caster anyway, due to the way the game doesn't really cater for epic spell level progression.
Also something else to consider- if it's an IC event, then people summoning creatures had best not try to summon a Devil or Demon, or unlawfully summoning Undead.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Sept 30, 2011 0:38:27 GMT -5
// Do vampiric regeneration weapons count as healing or can those be used?
I thought the epic brawl was all class types? That's where GS would put a damper on the fun IMO.
While less likely, a fighter with a few wizard levels could use a scroll in any level range of the Fighter duel as well I guess ... or a bard/fighter.
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Post by fenrip on Sept 30, 2011 6:58:11 GMT -5
//This will be an all against all style competition. The brawls will be split by levels. lvl 1-7 lvl 8-14 lvl 15-20 EPIC // *sigh* Was stuck at 7 forever and just made it to 8. Have to find a friend.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Sept 30, 2011 7:45:46 GMT -5
For the wizard duel in particular (as someone who doesn't have a wizard who will enter), I'd like to suggest that the combatants be allowed a specified number of buffs, or perhaps a specified amount of time to put buffs before attacks begin. The reason is that if someone goes straight to the serious attack magic in the same round everyone else goes invisible against a collection of completely unwarded wizards, the fight could be virtually over right there. (Imagine a high DC banshee wail against a collection of completely unwarded wizards.) That would be pretty boring to watch. Given the destructive power and the relative lack of hardiness for the average wizard or sorcerer, compared to other classes, I'm thinking a little something might be nice to actually prolong the fight. Or maybe everyone of all classes could be required, for the sake of evenness, to make two non-attack moves before they start attacking? (Cast two wards, take two potions, summon a creature and drink a potion, do one of each, what ever ... just two non-attack actions.)
Numbers are not the important point here, just the spirit of making it a slight bit harder for combatants to be knocked out on the first combat round of a brawl.
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Post by darinder on Sept 30, 2011 8:33:10 GMT -5
For the wizard duel in particular (as someone who doesn't have a wizard who will enter), I'd like to suggest that the combatants be allowed a specified number of buffs, or perhaps a specified amount of time to put buffs before attacks begin. The reason is that if someone goes straight to the serious attack magic in the same round everyone else goes invisible against a collection of completely unwarded wizards, the fight could be virtually over right there. (Imagine a high DC banshee wail against a collection of completely unwarded wizards.) That would be pretty boring to watch. Given the destructive power and the relative lack of hardiness for the average wizard or sorcerer, compared to other classes, I'm thinking a little something might be nice to actually prolong the fight. Or maybe everyone of all classes could be required, for the sake of evenness, to make two non-attack moves before they start attacking? (Cast two wards, take two potions, summon a creature and drink a potion, do one of each, what ever ... just two non-attack actions.) Numbers are not the important point here, just the spirit of making it a slight bit harder for combatants to be knocked out on the first combat round of a brawl. One precaution I'd suggest if that approach is taken is that people not toggle hostile until after the two-step non-combat phase. Otherwise, the summons may attack (depending on relative proximities) before the second set of actions is completed by everybody.
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Post by Dobian on Sept 30, 2011 9:10:03 GMT -5
//Yhe argument people make against GS is that it lets mages have the luxury of buffing themselves up in relative peace because fighters can't attack them. But to that I would say it gives fighters the chance to drink their potions as well, because a fighter can drink an invis first and other fighter types aren't going to have true seeing to see them with. GS really just protects the mages from other mages really. But if it gets banned, you can always just invis and others will have to waste a round casting true seeing while you do something else.
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Post by Booze Hound on Sept 30, 2011 9:47:11 GMT -5
// Ok sounds like almost everyone thinks GS should be scratched.
It's back on the banned list.
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Post by verycoldbeer on Sept 30, 2011 9:57:30 GMT -5
//THIS IS GOING TO BE AWESOME. I hope I can make it.
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Post by Booze Hound on Sept 30, 2011 15:18:29 GMT -5
//Though I appreciate the effort at RP by throwing out a challenge to any who may wish to accept a non magical duel, etc...I am going to have plenty going on at this event, and don't want combat outside the arena.
When the mage battle goes off, i am hoping like hell that the server doesn't explode from all the graphics, etc. A personal poster for a challenge can go up at any time, but I really want to keep the fighting IN THE DESIGNATED ARENA for the designated battles during the tourney.
Thanks
*hic*
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Post by Booze Hound on Sept 30, 2011 18:28:15 GMT -5
//OK New rule:
I have been thinking this over, and have decided that I am gonna scratch magic items. All of them. I want this to be a battle of who is the best, not who is the richest. I know some are going to complain, but in the end, I think it will be really awesome to see people show what they are REALLY made of.
So that means: ALL of the equipment you usually wear is now out! All participants will basically strip naked, and they will be able to bring in a weapon of their choice, a shield (if they want/use one), and they will get some non magical clothing.
I honestly think that this will make a better show, less swallowing invisibility potions and buffing up, and more of us all learning what our characters are REALLY all about. Feel free to comment on the new rule, but PLEASE...think about how cool it will be first.
If you have a lot of cool gear (my character does, so this will greatly affect me) you get to show that you are not just a walking suit of magical crap.
If you don't...well now you can't whine that it was unfair.
Deal? Cool.
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Spells
Proven Member
Posts: 196
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Post by Spells on Sept 30, 2011 18:41:14 GMT -5
// while i have no melee, will melee be able allowed a mundane piece of armor of there choice? non-magical cloak/ect?
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Post by Booze Hound on Sept 30, 2011 19:13:57 GMT -5
//I will have non magical gladiator style outfits or plain brown robes that all classes can wear.
If you are asking about something for concealment of one's face, I will have a hood I can offer
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Spells
Proven Member
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Post by Spells on Sept 30, 2011 19:22:37 GMT -5
// that answers my question, but I mostly just meant like leather for a dex fighter, or full plate for a heavy str fighter, ect
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Post by Thrym on Sept 30, 2011 19:25:15 GMT -5
A towering (for her kin) hin woman of calishite descends looks over the new posters.
"No armors...? Ahah! Ahah! AHAHAHA! Ohhh, this'll be fun!"
Grinning and rubbing her hands, she heads on.
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Post by Booze Hound on Sept 30, 2011 19:59:21 GMT -5
//on second thought, I am gonna allow a single piece of mundane armor per character. That makes it even more fair since DEX based fighters would have a significant advantage for AC if everyone was wearing cloth.
So each competitor gets: Mundane Weapon (or two if they are a dual wielder) of choice Mundane Armor of their choice Mundane Shield of their choice
*hic*
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Post by lowstorm on Sept 30, 2011 20:17:00 GMT -5
~When Rade reads this there's sudden cheering. LOUDLY~
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Sept 30, 2011 20:26:17 GMT -5
// This should be fun. One concern would be weight.
Characters that need to keep all their magical shields and armor on them, but also use mundane shields and armor may become heavily encumbered. Particularly if they can't use strength items.
I'm not sure if it would be worth doing, but 10% weight on the 'mundane' equipment could help. I suppose if there are enough bystanders, they could also give items to their friends.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Sept 30, 2011 20:35:41 GMT -5
I'd like to point something out about the mathematics of game mechanics, especially at increasingly high levels, if there is no protection at all on any of the purely physical fighters. Let me demonstrate mathematically: Two fighters of level 20 are going to fight with no armor. Fighter A has an advantage in damage power, having a high strength, improved , and weapon specialization with a two handed weapon. Fighter B has an advantage in armor class, having a higher dexterity, two levels in rogue with 20 skill points in tumble, dodge feat, and improved expertise. Fighter A has an armor class of 10. (No armor, no dexterity, no defensive feats or skills.) Fighter B has an armor class of 18. (No armor, say +3 for dex, +4 for tumble, +1 for dodge.) He is capable of putting his armor class up to 28 with improved expertise running. On offense, fighter A has an attack bonus of (25 strength for +7, +1 for weapon focus, +20 for level) +28/+23/+18/+13. On offense fighter B has an attack bonus of (16 strength for +3, +1 for weapon focus, +20 for level) +24/+19/+14/+9. What you can see here is that with improved expertise running on fighter B, fighter A will hit on rolls of 2/5/7/12, and fighter B will hit on rolls of 2/2/6/11. That's a lot of hits with not much missing. Depending on what you want the fight to be like, no armor could make the fighters' brawls end very quickly and leave little room for in-fight strategy, with little time to react to what is going on. If that's what you want the fight to be like, that's fine, but especially at the higher levels, this is the scenario that comes about with no armor. Also, as far as people casting spells in the fighters' brawl, if you put concealment on one of the fighters, then every attack on him misses 50% of the time, versus 5% on the first attack of the round for everyone else. That makes magic quite potent indeed, if one can cast it, and takes away the balancing effect of spell failure for wearing heavier armor which the non-caster would have. Add some tenser's transformation, haste, stoneskin, flame weapon, bull's strength, fire shield, and invisibility to buff up while no one else can use a true seeing potion to go after him, then some hold person during the fight, while no one else has mind wards or save enhancing rings ... yeah. If armor were allowed, at least the caster would have to roll above a 2 in order to hit his unbuffed, unwarded targets that have complete vulnerability to his hold spells, etc. I'm not suggesting spells be disallowed. I'm just suggesting that a caster should have to face the balancing effect that armor has in terms of spell failure vs. difficulty to hit your target. Or at the very very very least, that invisibility and sanctuary of any kind be disallowed in the fighter's brawl, so people at least have a chance to disrupt the buffs as they're being cast.
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Post by bhagavat on Sept 30, 2011 21:05:51 GMT -5
//my 2 cents.
//for melee, since magic is allowed, perhaps allowing potions and maybe scrolls. not sure about scrolls, since that allows a rich fella to read a high lvl scroll, but potions alone would even the board a bit.
//for magi, i like no magical gear, and dont see the need for potions or scrolls either. just magical tactics. I dont like the idea of giving time to buff. part of the tactics we can come up with are choosing when a ward of some type or buff is needed over an attack. i like the idea of naked magi having to fight....well not really naked.
//agree with disallowing GS.
//a bit unclear on the bigbys spell/s not allowed. is it all bigbys spells or just the one mentioned?
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Post by NHmikey on Sept 30, 2011 21:09:13 GMT -5
//I just want to say that I am in favor of DM Boozehound running this event how he sees fit, with whatever rules he sees fit to have, because, well, um, it's his event.
//Anyone who does not like said rules, for rp reasons, mechanical reasons, statistical reasons, or whatever other reasons they can come up with, are free to NOT participate.
//Thanks Boozie for running what I am sure will be an awesome event.
//*raises a glass*
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Post by dmthann on Sept 30, 2011 21:37:33 GMT -5
//I just want to say that I am in favor of DM Boozehound running this event how he sees fit, with whatever rules he sees fit to have, because, well, um, it's his event. //Anyone who does not like said rules, for rp reasons, mechanical reasons, statistical reasons, or whatever other reasons they can come up with, are free to NOT participate. //Thanks Boozie for running what I am sure will be an awesome event. //*raises a glass* +1000 to that one.
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Post by Booze Hound on Sept 30, 2011 21:45:20 GMT -5
//Most of the concerns raised were addressed in my post above. Mundane armor is allowed. So Fighter A has his AC back. He can wear mundane full plate if he wants. That should help when some mage with a couple of fighter levels tries to come at him with a flaming sword and he knocks him flat on his arse.
No magic items.
This is why I started this thread, cause I couldn't think of everything from the beginning, so I needed some input. I am not complaining. Hence the rules changing a bit.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Sept 30, 2011 21:46:50 GMT -5
I just want to say that I am in favor of DM Boozehound running this event how he sees fit, with whatever rules he sees fit to have, because, well, um, it's his event. Anyone who does not like said rules, for rp reasons, mechanical reasons, statistical reasons, or whatever other reasons they can come up with, are free to NOT participate. Thanks Boozie for running what I am sure will be an awesome event. *raises a glass* You are correct. And the way DM Boozehound has been running this thread so far has been to welcome and incorporate player input into his rulings on how it should run. I am also in favor of DM Boozehound running things as he sees fit.
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Post by Slanker on Sept 30, 2011 21:47:20 GMT -5
"Hmm...an all out brawl?", Crom slowly reads over one of the posters near his home in Eveningstar and speaks quietly to himself. "Well...this ehh could be fun. Maybe Crom should go have look."
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Post by lucid on Oct 1, 2011 0:27:11 GMT -5
*Dwarven war holler* BARE METAL!!! HOOYEAH, baby, it is on.
//so down with no items but mundane. Don't even need the shield...
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Post by probablyamage on Oct 1, 2011 0:57:49 GMT -5
Presumably the mundane weapon restriction applies for the epic brawl as well. If that's the case the 20/+3 damage reduction from Ethereal Visage will utterly stop many epic melee characters, and might want to be considered on the banned list as well. Shadow Shield's 10/+3 damage reduction is worth considering as well, but it's able to be bypassed, and will probably be used mostly to counter death spells and Necromancy.
I don't meant to nitpick, but I've fought a lot of duels with a melee-caster (Sashara) for fun so I've experimented and found out the sneaky spells to use to automatically win.
Suggestions aside, this sounds like it's going to be fun. If I'm at all able to attend I'll be bringing Lustig.
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Post by arisnorman1 on Oct 1, 2011 1:09:46 GMT -5
*Aris reads the new rules and chuckles rubing his hands togeather* This will be a great show and i am sure we all know who will win *grins wickedly*
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Post by Booze Hound on Oct 1, 2011 1:21:40 GMT -5
hmmmmm...the epic brawl I had not thought about with mundane weapon crippled fighters versus fully buffed spellcasters...
Should the epic brawl be no holds barred?
I would still ban Timestop, Bigby's Forceful Hand, and Greater Sanctuary I think. Otherwise, let's see all those epic goodies in their full glory?
Thoughts on the epic battle?
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