Defiling Shrines, a no-no?

[canuckkane]

I feel it necessary to bring up the issue of defiling shrines be it good or evil, either 'cleansing' or outright defiling of shrines. Far too often I see people wantonly defiling shrines of evil deities with the mindset of "oh well it isn't my god so I don't care. My god will protect me". Firstly, and DMs feel free to correct me if I am wrong here, gods watch over their followers, they are not champions of their followers watching them every second and shielding them from the consequences of foolish actions such as angering another god. Secondly, the idea of defiling a shrine should not be taken so lightly. Shrines are places of power dedicated to the god they are set up for, (and again DMs feel free to correct me here), defiling a shrine is a direct assault upon the god itself, even if nothing adverse happens to you the first time you do it, or even the second, eventually a god is going to get extremely tired of someone working directly against him and intervene to prevent it. The gods are entities of IMMENSE power and whether or not your character follows or despises a particular god is not the issue. Quite simply the god you are toying with is far more powerful than you and if you piss him/her off eventually they will take you to task. Out of character I personally think that the attitude of "Oh well, it isn't -my- god so I don't care, my god with protect me" is very poor role-play unless your particular character has an extraordinarily low wisdom. Think twice before you defile the shrine of a god, the god themselves just might slap you around for it, it's happened before.

[brian333]

Reminds me of a time when my Lathanderite Cleric saw another PC getting ready to hammer a shrine to Gruumsh. He intervened, saying that though he despised the one-eyed god, he was still a god with the power to punish blasphemy.

Got a nice little exp bump and proof that DM's are watching for that little bit of RP.

[EDM Neo]

I'd say it really depends on the character (mind, this is just my opinion, not at all based on source material or anything).

Rigrin wouldn't considering defiling a shrine himself, and would discourage others from doing so. He has 8 wisdom, and is an epic sorcerer who might be able to actually stand a chance at holding his own against the avatars of a few of the weaker gods for a round or three, but he makes a point of being respectful to gods he doesn't worship, rather then risking pissing them off. Just because that's the way he was raised.

Celith, on the other hand, has 17 base wisdom (often higher with gears and buffs), but he'd gladly attempt to cleanse the shrines of gods he opposes, when practical. He's a cleric, and trusts that, so long as he takes the proper precautions in doing so (using the right spells, like Protection from Evil, Hallow, etc), his god would protect him from direct divine repercussions. He was formerly the cleric of a dark god, before he converted, and in doing so, overcame most of his fear of him, now trusting in his current patron for protection.

It can be good, it can be evil, and it can be neither, but I wouldn't say it's always one or the other, or that it's always in character or out of character. It's really dependent on the situation.

I'd imagine the vast majority of people in Faerun would share a mindset similar to Rigrin's, but Celith's wouldn't be completely uncommon amongst clerics and other holy warriors like paladins and divine champions and blackguards, but not completely unheard of for others either.

[Hackmaster]

As Phelzaron he has a code about the gods no matter how much he dislikes them. He will not kill on holy ground, and he will not defile a shrine even of his worst enemy. Now weather this is a personal code of conduct or a fear of the gods...I would say it is a bit of both, He has standards and codes of his own even if they are not on the moral high ground. He would attempt to actually stop the defilement of a shrine to even a good deity.

From my mind set with Phelzaron, the path to weaken a god is reduce the amount of worshipers the god has either through conversion and corruption, or as a last resort I won't elaborate on his darker ways when needed.

As a DM I have always been harsh to the defilers of churches, temples, and shrines. Depending on how they go about it...I might curse them, level drain them, have a spirit guardian attack them, I would never use a gods avatar though accept for the truly high profile. That does not mean high level exactly but just famous or infamous for such actions against other faiths sacred ground.

Typically a good guy thinks about as crappy as a bad guy on taking a shrine down. It's usually an orgy of violence against the shrine and surrounding area. Typically A cleric or Paladin or strong follower of a faith opposed to the god in question would be refusing to even enter the area of such a shrine. If they felt they had to they would likely walk through holy symbol in hand praying to their god for strength and protection. They would be there only as long as they had to.

If a group thought they might try to remove the taint from the land weather good or evil they would come in as a large group, pray to their god to remover the taint from the land and hope their faith in numbers and their god was strong enough to remove this blight from the land as they see it. That is a more proper attack especially among good guys and also good guys more so then bad guys would try very hard to make the heathens see the error of their ways through conversion techniques. Violence is of course a very possible alternative even among the good when faced with evil they cannot sway but only against the worshipers.

To my mind only those with some form of insanity or over zealous nature which is a form of insanity would ever even consider destroying the holy or unholy place itself as I said earlier in an orgy of violence against the shrine, temple, or church. Faiths will typically kill every worshiper they find in such places without batting an eye but going further is stepping into a dangerous world and you may not have anything happen the first time...maybe even the fifth time...but one day...it will happen and it will be really bad.

A final reason why taking a dump on a shrine is just not a good idea is, you can pee on the alter, knock it over, write messages on the walls, loot the place, so on and so forth, but that does not mean the place is destroyed of its foul evil or good taint. The site itself is the unholy or holy ground, the things around it are just....things put there by the worshipers. Burn the temple to the ground and the worshipers will still come to hold their rites.

In the real world when the Christians attempted to convert the pagans and other unfaithful, they historically performed many many raids of holy places, destroying the faithful when need be and bringing down temples wherever they went. They thought this would stop the faithful from continuing their worship of their gods but instead they found the pagans kept returning to the sites they thought were completely destroyed. It was not the things there that brought the faithful, anymore then when the vikings raided Christian churches, it did not stop the faithful from returning to these places.

Christians eventually got the idea to build their churches on these holy sites and adopting pagan holidays as a tactic to help convert the pagans and this started working as pagans believed in many gods, they generally did not question if somebody elses god existed of not. Vikings did not raid churches typically because they were against Christians, they raided them because the Christian church was very fond of gold and jewels as tools of worship to God.

So in the real world karma did not work as quickly as it might in a fantasy world, horrible things happened weather Pagan, Muslim, Christian, or Jew. Our history is littered with terrible violence against one anothers religions for little more then believing ours whatever it may be is the one true way and more often then not an excuse to become rich and powerful of others misery. One thing that was always the case though is that no religion could wipe a place away that was considered holy in our world. You could destroy whatever you wanted, the people would continue to come back to places considered holy.

So do I think defiling shrines is a no no? Yes, your average healthy mind would not consider such a thing. Even if that reason is fear of retribution at the possibility a god might retaliate. Only the insane or Over zealous folk of the world would even think for a moment it is a good idea. Because only they can think in absolutes believing they are right while having no rational proof, fact, or otherwise. Our real world history is layed waste of such folk coming to power that truly believed they knew what was right on faith alone and millions upon millions have suffered as a result throughout our history.

In Cormyr, I feel the average Cormyrian would fear attacking an evil or good shrine as unlike in our world, they have seen that the gods exist, they have proof, and they know their are many paths one can take. Good people even give offerings to evil gods on occasion to protect them from the wrath of that god.

A lot of gamers accept the idea that Cormyr has a lot of gods, but all too often they think with the mentality of there is only one god like most do in the real world. So they select a god and then do not recognize other gods as legitimate. While this can certainly happen, Forgotten Realms is a polytheistic culture on the whole and will instead have a patron god and make offerings to many other gods depending on the situation including the evil ones usually out of fear.

An example might be a loved one dies, a Cormyrian may make an offering to Kelemvor and Velsharoon, asking that he be laid to rest and not given a life of undeath while actually being a worshiper of Sune.

[Munroe]

I agree with what Dirk said except for one thing. Velsharoon is only a demigod, and one that has only been a demigod for about four years. The average Cormyrean has never heard of him. :-)

[Munroe]

Kelemvor has also only been a deity for about four years, but as a Greater Power, news of his ascension has gotten around.

[Vlad]

Jul 5, 2009 20:31:33 GMT -5 canuckkane said:

Think twice before you defile the shrine of a god, the god themselves just might slap you around for it, it's happened before.

I agree with many things that i have been said so far but not with this.

I have a precise example in mind

During the Year of Shadows Fleeting (-331 DR) the elven armies of Cormanthyr and Rystal Wood broke the greater defenses of the Twisted Tower and destroyed all remaining drow slavers within the tower. The Tower was left in the hands of good dark elf allies, and it became a great temple to Eilistraee. But in 190 DR (according to the Demihuman Deities sourcebook) the temple of Eilistraee and its good dark elves were slaughtered by a new infestation of drow from below and then restored as the Twisted Tower military garrison. The drow remained there until 1356 if i remember correctly.

Did Eilistraee intervene? She did not. Gods do not belong to the world of the mortals and deal with them on very rare occasions. The gods intervene on Faerun when they have vital business. IMO a defiled shrine is not vital business. It is up to the faithfuls to deal with it or not.

Now, as Neo said, that depends on the character.
My main character would not pee on an altar of Gruumsh because that what an orc would probably do on altars of non-orcish faiths.
But he would certainly try to get rid of a certain shrine to Malar and replace it with a shrine dedicated to the Seldarine.

And last but not least i hardly imagine someone asking to Velsharoon that a loved one be laid to rest and not given a life of undeath. Velsharoon is not widely known. Kelemevor is the most appropriate choice i think.
Though, a follower of Velsharoon could trick that person to increase the number of lay worshipers.

[The Flying Ve]

Direct divine intervention...Bah, nothing that makes me want to slap around a GM more than when that happens. It's sloppy, it's uncreative and the characters can do nothing about it. Both for the benefit and the ill of the characters, I think it's crap when that happens as a player for said reasons and as a DM because my players should solve their own problems. If their only option is a god saving them? Then they messed up so bad, that the god probably thinks those couple of idiots down there aren't worth it.

Afaik, the razing of shrines is a regular occurrence in wars and minor scuffles between believers. If a god intervened every time or, hell, even once(news would get around about something like that pretty fast, I'd say...), it would happen far less as to the point of not at all. And how is a shrine more important than the priests that tended it? Shrines can be rebuilt while less worshippers mean less power for the god. Why would a deity only step in to protect its shrine and not its clergy at the shrine? That makes no sense at all. If they step in at shrines, that means every time you kill a kobold shaman, you risk major divine retribution. Can you see why the "divine sanctity" notion is bull both from an OOC and an IC point of view? Apply a bit of logic and it either falls apart because no one wants what it would mean or it creates a gaming environment where, if you kill the kobold shaman, Tiamat eats you up- if you don't, the kobold shaman kills you. Is adventuring possible in such an environment? Yes- as a cleric, because then you kill all his grunts, he kills all of yours and then you can both grab some cocoa while you respective gods fight it out, all other classes be damned.

Ergo, my characters have absolutely no problem at all of getting rid of a shrine to a deity they oppose, do not care about etc. As far as I'm concerned, defiling shrines is common practise. It happens often enough.

[shimmerxxx]

I have noticed that players are a lot more willing to descrete a shrine than they are to steal from the tithe tray of that shrine. I'm guessing that's because a script is in place for dealing with thieves.

This doesn't make much sense IC though, if you are afraid to steal from a god then surely you'd be making bottom cake at the thought of smashing up his house.

[Rook]

I think you are right, shimmerxxx. There is a little meta-gaming going on in that many players know that there are consequences from stealing from the tithe plate but not from emoting defiling a shrine, unless a DM happens to be watching and intervenes. And DMs do intervene at times. It usually isn't the direct divine intervention that vedas seems worried about. But a servant of the god could show up. Or, as was mentioned, someone could be cursed or level drained. Gods can cast such spells from a distance.

On the other hand, we used to have a group of cyricists who attacked a few shrines. The planned and plotted the attacks for weeks in advance and had DM involvement. These events generated a lot of RP that the community could feed off of. So I think there is a right way to do such things.

[The Flying Ve]

Jul 6, 2009 8:10:44 GMT -5 Rook said:

I think you are right, shimmerxxx. There is a little meta-gaming going on in that many players know that there are consequences from stealing from the tithe plate but not from emoting defiling a shrine, unless a DM happens to be watching and intervenes. And DMs do intervene at times. It usually isn't the direct divine intervention that vedas seems worried about. But a servant of the god could show up. Or, as was mentioned, someone could be cursed or level drained. Gods can cast such spells from a distance.

Heh, above "gods slapping me around" statement sort of put me off. I've had bad experience with that in a certain German system which encourages DMs who like to pull that kind of bull(f.ex., one dwarf who muttered how much of a prick a certain priest was suddenly found out he was impotent- not my kinda deal). Priests discovering the thief and chasing/catching him, that I expect when I steal tithes, which, since it doesn't seem to happen, I don't do because "free money" is cheap. A curse? A level drain? A bit of damage? PSHAW! LAME! Gimme hostile priests and guards* instead

On the other hand, if I'm defiling a shrine because I frickin' hate that sod of a god, I sure as hell am going to steal the tithe plate after I've heroically slain all those evil priests of {insert god x}. If you have a nice RP reason for combating deity X, it doesn't just stop at having a bit of fun with altars. There's usually other signs that the PC is out to get cult X.

*should they make their spot check

edit: On the other hand, it is very likely that certain parts of a temple were booby-trapped by holy means. A priest charging up the tithe-plate of thief cursing and the altar of holy smiting of hostile infidels could be pretty common. At least that's how I'd explain the ingame effects for me.

[Dachshund]

Jul 6, 2009 9:08:40 GMT -5 The Flying Ve said:

Heh, above "gods slapping me around" statement sort of put me off. I've had bad experience with that in a certain German system which encourages DMs who like to pull that kind of bull(f.ex., one dwarf who muttered how much of a prick a certain priest was suddenly found out he was impotent- not my kinda deal). Priests discovering the thief and chasing/catching him, that I expect when I steal tithes, which, since it doesn't seem to happen, I don't do because "free money" is cheap. A curse? A level drain? A bit of damage? PSHAW! LAME! Gimme hostile priests and guards* instead

On the other hand, if I'm defiling a shrine because I frickin' hate that sod of a god, I sure as hell am going to steal the tithe plate after I've heroically slain all those evil priests of {insert god x}. If you have a nice RP reason for combating deity X, it doesn't just stop at having a bit of fun with altars. There's usually other signs that the PC is out to get cult X.

*should they make their spot check

edit: On the other hand, it is very likely that certain parts of a temple were booby-trapped by holy means. A priest charging up the tithe-plate of thief cursing and the altar of holy smiting of hostile infidels could be pretty common. At least that's how I'd explain the ingame effects for me.

Please watch your language. Your tone may be perceived as hostile. Please read our forum rules HERE for a guideline on how to post.

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[Grozer]

Jul 6, 2009 7:16:29 GMT -5 Vlad said:

Jul 5, 2009 20:31:33 GMT -5 canuckkane said:

Think twice before you defile the shrine of a god, the god themselves just might slap you around for it, it's happened before.

Did Eilistraee intervene? She did not. Gods do not belong to the world of the mortals and deal with them on very rare occasions. The gods intervene on Faerun when they have vital business.

Always had that opinion myself as well, Gods would rarely and I mean rarely intervene directly , although I would not be surprised if an "avatar" or a 'champion' sought retribution. All that said, I have seen "many", emphasis on many, direct God signs/blessings/presence or whatever else you want to call it around FRC so often its become unbelievable. Just sit around Isinhold sometime and you will eventually see something.

[ShadowCatJen]

It depends on the character. Just like in Neo's example I have characters who'd never ever defile a shrine and I have others that would like nothing but to completely destroy the shrine of an opposing god.

Will there be repercussions? Potentially, yes. And that's the risk anyone runs when defiling a shrine or temple. Neither extreme is right in this scenario. To have something happen every time a person defiles a shrine is too much, to have nothing ever happen when a shrine is defiled doesn't seem right. Despite popular belief, the gods can't be everywhere at once. The Faerun gods are not omnipotent. However, they do exist, do have a will, and can do something in the realm of mortals if their attention just happens to be in the area at the time. Remember, any time a god's name is said aloud their "ears" can be attuned to that area if they chose to do so.

... to say that having a god take his ire out on a PC for defiling his shrine is a "bull" way for a DM to do things...

*sigh* Being that communication is a big talk here, that sort of tone can make a DM disinclined to do anything towards a PC when their player is going to berate them because they didn't do things the way "they" would have. There's more then one way to skin a cat and more then one way to DM things. Creative criticism is fine, but be a little less derogatory when bringing it up.

[The Flying Ve]

Since it seems necessary to clarify:

Yes, there are more than a few ways to skin an animal. However, there's one that's most practical and others that are needlessly bloody, etc.. Now, as a DM, the most important thing is to know your players. If they won't go for the one way because it seems harsh or whatever for them, your job is to do what you enjoy most and come up with another, creative and fun way to handle the situation. OK, I'm projecting myself on others here, but creative free reign is one of the main reasons I enjoy DMing in PnP(and because, in Shadowrun, I get to be a sadist ;D ). Now, there's a lot of players I've known in over 10 years of RPG who would start endless discussions on the "deity club", as we call it. These discussions are tiring. They're not fun. They make those players who want to get on with the game and forget it just as irritated as those who feel it is unjust and the DM who made the mistake of pulling it out of the bag of tricks. Since you RPG to have fun, it is also part of the DM's job to avoid presenting such situations as these are fun for no one. This is, however, a give-and-take: If you have one or two players in your group who just enjoy torping whatever you do, it's not fun for you either. We roleplay primarily for enjoyment, so mutual enjoyment should be a goal.

There's a player-to-player etiquette, but there's also a player-DM etiquette. From the player side, that includes, in-time, giving them the benefit of doubt and just rolling with it. If it really doesn't get better and only worse, then you can always break off when the group as a whole takes a pause to think. From the DM side, that includes leaving the players a way out of a situation. With a deity appearing for defiling a shrine, that's pretty much impossible and why I have such a huge issue with that course. A human representative of the deity presents -many- more options, be it "to absolve your sin, I shall bestow upon you this dangerous quest. You shall not rest until you have completed it...(how's that for cruel and unusual, but at the same time challenging and satisfying to beat as a player)" or, from a more forgiving fellow and if the player shows inclement, a talk about the gods, their laws and why what he did was very wrong. Perhaps the player(character) did not know? Perhaps he did and is rolling bluff checks all the time?

Stuff like that makes it interesting by presenting situations to actually RP and not just receive divine damage/player ire for both sides.

RE language: Sorry about the Bavarianisms. I actually toned it down from the way I usually talk, ya know? ...

[Deleted]

I hear you Vedas. I oftens have to come back to a post i am making on a hot topic just to censor myself.

~Sioladuil

[ShadowCatJen]

Bavarianisms

Didn't think I'd see that word used today. Vocabulary word of the day! *writes that one down*

Yes, I would certainly agree. Giving players enough leeway to get out of a situation is always best. To only have the diety break out his hammer every time the PC defiles a shrine is a bit one-track minded.

Getting a player trapped into having no options at all and having them just "take it" should only be reserved for that rare occation when a player doesn't "get it" -- even after being spoken too OOCly time and time again -- and needs to be taught ICly in order to learn. Sounds harsh, but (unfortunately) there are situations where it's called for.

Of course, we're talking about DM actions when the initial point was how PCs roleplay it.

As I was saying, any defiling of any shrine or temple is going to come with that potential of a backlash in some form. To be blase about it and think nothing is going to happen to you, even ICly, is foolish. Now, granted, the PC in question might not be too bright in the head and unwisely defile a shrine with the thought they're fully protected, as Canuck mentioned.

Again *parrots* the gods are not omnipotent. They don't watch their followers 24/7 and constantly guide and protect them. If they did, then you'd never have cases of fallen paladins or clerics falling out of favor with their dieties. Illmater would never have one single martyred follower if he protected them all from any sort of ill due to that follower's actions.

[canuckkane]

My post was not to suggest that one should never 'cleanse' a shrine, or 'defile' one. Certainly there are instances where such a thing would happen. My issue is specifically with how -wantonly-, or without a care or second thought people seem to do it, and then casually disregard any warnings of caution saying "I don't care, my god will protect me". It is this I have trouble with. Will your god watch over you? Certainly, but that does NOT mean that you can just trot along willy nilly defiling shrines all over the place of the gods you do not like and expect that your god will 'save' you. This is the type of attitude that seems to be prevalent and I find it disturbing. I would almost, in fact, expect a god to want to scream 'what in hells are you doing? You're going to get killed you fool!' I would certainly understand a kelemvorite happening across a shrine of the vaunted and wanting to cleanse it as those two gods despise each other. What I do not understand is when a group of adventurers enter a cave, cavern, dungeon, etc. and one suggests defiling the shrine of <insert nefarious god here> for the mere fact that it exists. I would see severe hatred of a god as a valid reason to defile a shrine devoted to him, but to just arbitrarily defile the shrine of any evil god, or goodly god if you're an evil type, for the sake of doing so defies logic. Your character knows little to nothing about the god in question and I cannot imagine someone risking their soul in such a manner for a god they know little to nothing of.

[The Flying Ve]

I think it's party because in older D&D computer games, you got XP for doing it. It's become a bit of a habit because of that. That being said...even for a character justifiably afraid of divine retribution, getting someone else to do it might actually be an option in some cases. When in doubt, just ask OOC if there is a good reason. There usually is

[Spirit of a Phoenix]

Well I've actually had some experience with one of my characters defiling shrines and temples at one point and I think that it leads to some good RP. I used to play as one of the Cyricists who plotted against the temples. One of the things that we did as a group was come together and come up with plans to spread fear.

One of the ways we did this was by attacking the temples and leaving some sort of symbol or Cyric's mark during the attack. This was something that was used to create fear, kind of to get people to follow Cyric more out of fear of them being the next target, if they do not acknowledge his teachings.

By attacking the temples to us was kind of a way to gain favor of Cyric, in our character's minds. They didn't fear the other gods, but they did fear upsetting Cyric. Also at least for my character, dieing by upsetting one of Cyric's enemies wasn't a problem. He felt that if he did die doing something to gain Cyric's favor that his loyalty would be noticed and that he would be rewarded in the afterlife. My character never expected Cyric to step in and save him though.

I also personally believe that if done properly, that attacks on temples is great RP. We spent long hours planning waiting several weeks to finalize our plans before we went through with them. One attack even took us a month and a half to plan. However I don't think it was just good RP for us, but also others on the server. It in someways brought together followers of the attacked temples to come together and repair their temples, which I believe lead to some good RP for some of the non-cyrics.

I kind of rambled on,, but what I am trying to say is that I personally don't consider it bad RP to defile a shrine, but it really depends on how you go about it.

[MechaMistress]

I also agree with _Carbuncle_ on this subject. I have played a follower of Cyric in the past, and more importantly a cleric of Cyric. My character feared being discovered by mortals more so then being punished by any god because of Cyric's teaching. Fear is the wrong word- my character would hide her faith in public because it would be hard to openly work towards his goals. In her state of mind, those teachings were perfectly fine and an act of defiling a temple would be acceptable. I do not think for a normal character, however, that it is smart to randomly come across a temple or shrine and decide to tamper with it. The few temple raids my character was involved with took careful planing and I thought it was good RP. We acted to make our presence aware and show that no one was safe. If anything, my character would have been pleased if a god intervened somehow because her actions were noticed. My character has also stolen from tithe trays and wouldn't be afraid to commit any actions against a god.

Just wanted to support the Cyricists on this, and think they could be an exception