Evil v.s. Evil

[The Flying Ve]

I've been rolling an idea around in my mind, to incite a war between the Cabal(as the most strong notable force of evil in Cormyr) and the Cormyran crown by means of a third party*, allowing them to operate more freely and perhaps gain a few footholds. I think it might be a fun, interesting idea, but only if the players on the respective sides are cool with it. I don't want to force the situation on blokes who don't want to be in it

So, let's have some suggestions of "how do we do this?". It's obviously not gonna happen overnight, so I figure, start the discussion early, find out who wants in, who don't.

EDIT: THIS IS NOT AN ALIGNMENT DISCUSSION THREAD.

My character's respective faction wants power in Cormyr. Other factions have other goals. This is about clearing if the PvP that might happen in the course of conflicting interests between different parties would pose a problem for anyone. I thought I'd ask before I clonk you from behind

*Zhentarim, Fzoul's faction.

[ancientempathy]

Oh lord another alignment thread

Before this gets too indepth, follow this link here when you can

frc.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=lore&action=display&thread=1935

That goes to an ethos thread I made under the Lore of the Lands Section (discusses stuff about good and evil), but the thread also numerous links to previously made alignment threads too, if it'll help ya any

Cheers

[Munroe]

You run into problems in inciting a PvP conflict like that when you consider that the Cormyrean allied characters of the RCMH don't have arresting authority or police authority, so the only way they can do anything if they aren't directly attacked is under orders from an NPC.

Now you might be able to incite something between the cabal and freelance good-aligned, chaotic-aligned, or neutral characters, but we're also talking about the cabal here. They might as likely incite that same conflict themselves because it is their nature.

[Deleted]

Personally, i do not like the idea of trying to start something that will ultimately be an endless pvp cycle.

That being said, i think this idea could be fun. Afterall, just because two people are evil aligned does not mean they have to be friends. If done properly i think something like this could result in some quality rp. You would have your Chaotic villains acting of impulse. . .then your lawful villains plotting and waiting.

~Sioladuil

[Thrym]

I, on the other hand, think this is a horrible idea. People already hide behind the OOC construct that the Reach Accord is the whole time. Playing evil should be hard, we don't need to there to be 'evil footholds'.

[Aodhan the Unusual]

It's already hard being evil. And really, there are Evil vs. Evil things going on already. Not sure who or what or why? Well... to quote one of the co-creators of my LARP - 'One must find out these things through the intricacies of Role Play. Otherwise, you may as well just write a book on it so they can skip to the end.'

[EDM Entori]

the fact the RP would be great.

what shoots it down is "pvp cycle" is only started and ended when people choose to start and end it. there needs to be agreeable "rp outs" for everyone involved.

theres also the stress it creates on players who would actually do something but the rules for PVP are very high. (even if you do kill an enemy of the crown)

and as munroe said, the Royal Corps, can't do anything about it, and personally that would cause stress that my goodly/crown allied character can't participate in RP because of ooc rules.

[The Flying Ve]

DM Mönröe
Now you might be able to incite something between the cabal and freelance good-aligned, chaotic-aligned, or neutral characters, but we're also talking about the cabal here. They might as likely incite that same conflict themselves because it is their nature.

Why do you think I picked them? They make wonderful scapegoats. Who cares if it's really them? ;D
And I was able to find out they exist 2 days in...
Them as actually innocent would also make for an interesting angle for their players

BulldogwhosenameIcan'tspell
That being said, i think this idea could be fun. Afterall, just because two people are evil aligned does not mean they have to be friends. If done properly i think something like this could result in some quality rp. You would have your Chaotic villains acting of impulse. . .then your lawful villains plotting and waiting.

That's pretty much my go on it. I just mentioned the PvP thingy cause it's a very real possibility in a situation such as that and I consider myself a good enough RPer to leave folks out of it who really don't want to PvP for some IC reason.

EDM Entori: I'm not familiar enough with the FRC-Cormyr mod to come up with solutions to all of the problems you addressed, but the most simple RP out in a PvP situation is playing dead. My evil characters, f.ex., consider it an "act of mercy" to finish off the wounded and dying, so they won't do it, my good characters think it's a foul thing to stab people who could still be saved
I'm sure folks can come up with others. That's part of what this thread is for

RE: Royal Corpse of Monster Hunters- I have no clue what they're about. Can anybody nudge me in the right direction? The "under direct attack" part is something I would have no problem doing, if it's the only way to get them involved, btw. Seems crude, though...

[Munroe]

Jun 28, 2009 14:17:07 GMT -5 The Flying Ve said:

RE: Royal Corpse of Monster Hunters- I have no clue what they're about. Can anybody nudge me in the right direction? The "under direct attack" part is something I would have no problem doing, if it's the only way to get them involved, btw. Seems crude, though...

Royal Corps of Monster Hunters (RCMH) are the player-character branch of the Purple Dragons. They're charged with protecting Cormyr from monstrous threats and their unit doesn't have general policing authority because the policing of humans and PC demi-human races is out of their purview. ('Corps' is pronounced like 'core' by the way, not like 'corpse.') If a Cyrist murders someone in town (in Cormyr), that's the business of the city guard and the regular Purple Dragons (NPCs). If an ogre mage and an army of fiendish inbred ogres (what ogres aren't inbred?) and their dire wolverine companions are attacking the town (in Cormyr), that's the business of the Royal Corps of Monster Hunters.

If an RCMH member sees a crime, they attempt to notify someone that does have arresting authority.

I hope that clarifies that.

In-game Death penalties also deter a lot of PvP. I mean, when you get caught, the sentence is execution with 1000xp/level of XP loss, which always results in a loss of level.

As far as blamethrowing, you can attempt to frame whoever you want. There's just a fair chance that, unless it can be proved it was them, they won't get executed for it.

Remember when reporting a witnessed crime, you should also submit your logs of the event as the logs are used to determine the events of the crime and whether the murderer missed something.

[Grozer]

Jun 28, 2009 12:05:02 GMT -5 Thrym said:

I, on the other hand, think this is a horrible idea. People already hide behind the OOC construct that the Reach Accord is the whole time. Playing evil should be hard, we don't need to there to be 'evil footholds'.

I didn't realize playing evil was easy but I guess that's just me. *shrugs* Then again to your point before the Reach Accord any goodie could hide behind the "threat of evil" excuse and upholding the law when they wished to take the law into their own hands and kill evil PCs.


But back on topic...

Vedas you might want to consider this thread in your idea:
frc.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=pubsfrc&action=display&thread=6585

Specifically this part, which could come into play:

Other side notes (Available OOC Information for Players)

- Banishment is based on where the crime occurred. If it is proven the crime took place in the countryside, banishment shall be from the closest Corymrian city, town, village.
- All death sentences end in the loss of 1,000 xp/level

[EDM Neo]

Jun 28, 2009 14:43:40 GMT -5 Grozer said:

Jun 28, 2009 12:05:02 GMT -5 Thrym said:

I, on the other hand, think this is a horrible idea. People already hide behind the OOC construct that the Reach Accord is the whole time. Playing evil should be hard, we don't need to there to be 'evil footholds'.

I didn't realize playing evil was easy but I guess that's just me. *shrugs* Then again to your point before the Reach Accord any goodie could hide behind the "threat of evil" excuse and upholding the law when they wished to take the law into their own hands and kill evil PCs.

I think what he more means is... because of the current IC and OOC rules regarding PvP and evilness in general, characters can be openly evil puppy kickers who can never be stopped and who no one can really act against.

Of course not all evil characters abuse this, but some do (not saying that they're bad players or role players or characters or anything else like that because of it: it's not necessarily entirely their faults, nor is it always a bad thing), and it can give the impression that you don't even need to bother trying to be subtle... not that I have any suggestion of a good way to prevent this without bringing back up a whole crop of other issues.

Edit: *cough* Actually, just reread the "this is not an alignment discussion thread" part of the original post. If anyone wants, I can remove this.

[The Flying Ve]

Jun 28, 2009 14:43:40 GMT -5 @grözer said:

But back on topic...

Vedas you might want to consider this thread in your idea:
frc.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=pubsfrc&action=display&thread=6585

Specifically this part, which could come into play:

Other side notes (Available OOC Information for Players)

- Banishment is based on where the crime occurred. If it is proven the crime took place in the countryside, banishment shall be from the closest Corymrian city, town, village.
- All death sentences end in the loss of 1,000 xp/level

Ouch, yeah, pretty much the full list of crimes could happen in the course of something like this. Especially forgery, spying and that ilk. The PvP part would be just the icing...Then again, the spy game is FUN. At least I think so

Personally, if my character gets RP'd to be hung or something, he stays dead. Period. Death by random encounter is lame and doesn't really count. Death by RP...well, it gets really weird and messed up if you have to explain why the character is "suddenly alive" and the "but he has a mission/other random cliché" has gotten old for me.

@dm Mönröe: If it's specifically an RP angle to try and frame someone, would one still need screenshots? Or just a good bluff check and a ranger/wizard to leave "clues" behind...
(that and I don't know how to make screenshots)

I probably wouldn't go through all that trouble(there're easier ways to cause trouble...), though, but I bet somebody might have the same idea somewhere along the line.

[brian333]

Speaking for myself only: the Corps would love an enemy we could face and fight, especially if it began with roleplay and escalated over time into hostility, but there are other issues to consider.

1) Once the Corps identifies an enemy we will relentlessly hunt it down. We will do so as a group, and we will do so in a merciless manner. Anyone openly claiming to be the enemy of the Corps will discover there really isn't any peace in Cormyr.

This is unfair to the players involved on both sides. We have the usual advantage of Royal support and the other side doesn't. They have the usual advantage of infinite respawn, so while we can repeatedly beat back, limit the mobility of, and harass the opponent, we are, by the rules, prevented from ever achieving victory, (or defeat.)

If ooc victory conditions were established and an ooc limit on PvP concerning time, place, and circumstances, were established at the beginning and all parties agreed, this might be fun, but such conditions would have to be set and then honored, or else this will inevitably devolve in to the PvP cycle that ruins everyone's fun.

2) It is highly unlikely that anything a PC does IC will result in the Corps doing anything at all about it. Because of the advantage of Royal Sanction, the Corps has strict rules regarding dealing with other adventurers, including a ruling that prevents our involvement in any feud. While I won't detail the rules in case a rules-monkey starts trying to find a way around them, basically it means we have to report you to civil authorities, even in cases where others might be justified in acting.

So, not only will you find it difficult to engage a Corpsman in anything short of defending himself from a direct assault, for us to react as a guild is not permitted by our guild's guidelines! We have to go through NPC's to defend ourselves from other guilds!

Again, previous discussion to create a limited feud might allow guild-members to relax the strict rules in certain circumstances, but it would have to be limited, because the rules have been written over time to deal with actual issues that have come up over time, and they are generally good rules overall.

3) Any guildsman has the support of his fellow guildmembers and must answer to them for his actions in the name of his guild. The Royal Corps must answer to NPC's. We are the only guild whose internal leadership is the DM team. Other guilds are monitored, we are regulated. Every time a RCMH member is involved in direct action against a fellow adventurer his actions are reviewed by the DM team for conformity to the RCMH standard. Guild members have in the past been removed by the staff for IC actions that would not have been an issue in any other guild.

Simply engaging in the escalation of PvP can be cause for removal from our guild, (though we can defend ourselves, so don't get too brassy!) It is unfair to create a series of events which result in the ooc removal of guild members on the other team.

Any RCMH involvement in inter-guild PvP must be approved by the staff. The DM team may conclude there is a fair reason to become involved, and will inform us through our guild leadership, including any and all rules regarding our behavior toward other guilds.

I want to say very clearly, this is my own thought and not a product of any DM. I alone am responsible for it's content. That said, I'd also enjoy a fair contest of guilds, if one can be arranged that allows role play of the characters involved as well as develops the relationship between guilds on the server.

While a simple PvP fest does not interest me, intrigue... intrigues me. I'd love to have a mystery to solve, or plotters to expose, or whatever. PvP in such an event could be fun if a way can be found to make it fair and with a definite goal to win or to lose.

[Munroe]

Jun 28, 2009 15:55:48 GMT -5 The Flying Ve said:

@dm Mönröe: If it's specifically an RP angle to try and frame someone, would one still need screenshots? Or just a good bluff check and a ranger/wizard to leave "clues" behind...
(that and I don't know how to make screenshots)

I probably wouldn't go through all that trouble(there're easier ways to cause trouble...), though, but I bet somebody might have the same idea somewhere along the line.

I didn't say screenshots, I said logs. (There are a few posts around on the forums explaining how to turn on logging.) Screenshots are handy too, but logs are more convenient to transfer and read.

But yes, if there's a crime being investigated by NPCs and it was committed by PCs against other PCs (and sometimes NPCs), and no DM was present, we use logs to see what happened. If you try to lie your way out of it, logs might be employed in that instance to determine how possible that would be. Ideally, if you're going to do something for which you expect there to be a criminal investigation of some kind, you should try to reach a DM to witness it. That is not always possible however, and we use the logs to fill the gaps for events we did not oversee.

May 10, 2008 11:25:34 GMT -5 @ancientempathy said:

============================================================================

Other side notes (Available OOC Information for Players)

- Banishment is based on where the crime occured. If it is proven the crime took place in the countryside, banishment shall be from the closest Corymrian city, town, village.
- All death sentences end in the loss of 1,000 xp/level
- Jail time/banishment is based on real-life time
- If you can't pay the crime, then you do the time; criminals shall be sent to the debtor's prison. Jail time is 1 Day/250 lions
- Acts of Self Defense will always be taken into consideration
- Acts of Torture would qualify under Assault charges, in their respective right (i.e. if torturing Royalty or a Lord - charged under the First Plaint)


All fines and punishments are only enforced if the individual(s) charged are found guilty.
- In order for a representative of the kingdom to investigate, the following conditions must be met:
1) Logs of the event. Screenshots are acceptable but logs are preferred. Edited logs/screenshots will not be accepted.
2) Logs must be submitted to a DM of your choice within 48 hours of occurrence of event in question. All investigations are done by multiple DMs which agree on the outcome.

- Additional notes:
1) These laws apply to everyone, regardless of alignment.
2) In order for a individual to be found guilty, there has to be enough evidence to prove they committed a crime beyond a reasonable doubt. Insufficient evidence will result in no criminal charges.

The part of that I'm referencing specifically is this:

All fines and punishments are only enforced if the individual(s) charged are found guilty. - In order for a representative of the kingdom to investigate, the following conditions must be met: 1) Logs of the event. Screenshots are acceptable but logs are preferred. Edited logs/screenshots will not be accepted. 2) Logs must be submitted to a DM of your choice within 48 hours of occurrence of event in question. All investigations are done by multiple DMs which agree on the outcome.

[Munroe]

Oh, and screenshots, while not preferred, are easy to take. I press the PrintScreen button and it saves a screenshot. This may not be the default button though as I tend to rebind my controls. You can check your Screen Capture button in the controls screen of the game menu. On Windows systems, screenshots are saved in the NWN/screenshots folder where your NWN is installed. (This is new in 1.69, formerly they were just in the NWN folder.)

Screenshots are in the .TGA format. You may need to get a viewer to see them. There are some links to viewers here on the forums already as well.

[soulfien]

seriously? 1,000 xp per level?

REALLY?

So this is day 8 of being in jail and after having missed out on all this time of adventuring, if executed, I'm facing 17,000 XP loss on top of that?

Wow... so much for coming back from the grave.

[Hackmaster]

Playing as Phelzaron I am all for any RP that naturally leads to such things, I would be against pre-setting this up however. Mostly due to the fact evil people more often then not are the ones that suffer the very real and heavy XP loses. The good guys never suffer this because they almost never break the law. The worse they suffer is maybe losing face for being defeated by a bad guy and IF there is no witnesses having a hard time exacting a revenge.

They are good guys after all, so the idea of getting into a war with a branch of the purple dragons that would be impossible to win due to them having the law on their side and in the end we would all suffer a terrible OOC fate for our hard RP work by eventually being arrested and killed and losing much XP just does not appeal to me or likely any of my members. Bad guys get punished both IC and OOC for the plots they make its just the way it is, but will I pre-fab that fate? No way.

So basically this is how I feel about it, if you manage to pull it off in game my hats off to you. If you manage to set all this up and fool both sides kudos to you, and things will play out as normal. Would we fight the dragon? You bet if we felt there was a good reason to, will we discuss a pre-arranged way OOC how this might end up happening with a third party pulling the strings? No

[brian333]

Jun 29, 2009 21:53:33 GMT -5 Hackmaster said:

Playing as Phelzaron I am all for any RP that naturally leads to such things, I would be against pre-setting this up however. Mostly due to the fact evil people more often then not are the ones that suffer the very real and heavy XP loses. The good guys never suffer this because they almost never break the law. The worse they suffer is maybe losing face for being defeated by a bad guy and IF there is no witnesses having a hard time exacting a revenge.

They are good guys after all, so the idea of getting into a war with a branch of the purple dragons that would be impossible to win due to them having the law on their side and in the end we would all suffer a terrible OOC fate for our hard RP work by eventually being arrested and killed and losing much XP just does not appeal to me or likely any of my members. Bad guys get punished both IC and OOC for the plots they make its just the way it is, but will I pre-fab that fate? No way.

So basically this is how I feel about it, if you manage to pull it off in game my hats off to you. If you manage to set all this up and fool both sides kudos to you, and things will play out as normal. Would we fight the dragon? You bet if we felt there was a good reason to, will we discuss a pre-arranged way OOC how this might end up happening with a third party pulling the strings? No

Exactly the problem, from the other side!

I would only point out that, in an ooc pre-arranged event, such things as the onerous penalties could be waived. Those penalties are in place to give players a reason to not go around killing NPC's for the exp. Kill a PDK in the course of an event, sure you get a trial, but the ooc penalty is waived. Kill a PDK just to get your jollies during the event, the penalty for getting caught still applies.

Now, this is just an idea, feel free to reject it, but if you can find a piece of it that is useful, give it a try.

[Lady Frost]

I think you are free to try anything you want. Much of the advice given is good advice as well.

What I would like to say is for anyone trying to set up an "event", especially newer players. You need to try to find out just what factions and groups there are and who may be allies with who.

-Zoe

[Lokarn]

Hrmm.... interesting idea. I think you should work a lot more on intel aquisition though. Your character will need to know a lot more to accomplish inter faction wars, specificly ones that you are not a member of either faction.

/waves from her resting place.....