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Post by DM Grizwald on Jan 9, 2008 10:52:16 GMT -5
I was just going over passed events in my head and this point kind of struck me. When in a battle, pvp, oh maybe just running away from a baddie...in no way should you use transitions to another area as a way to regain your stealth. It just shouldn't work like that. I'm pretty sure this was braught up before but I just couldn't find the thread.
I'm keeping it short, no need for much of an explanation on this one cause i'm pretty sure everyone knows why.
Thanks,
Griz
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Post by kasin on Jan 9, 2008 11:14:55 GMT -5
I was just going over passed events in my head and this point kind of struck me. When in a battle, pvp, oh maybe just running away from a baddie...in no way should you use transitions to another area as a way to regain your stealth. It just shouldn't work like that. I'm pretty sure this was braught up before but I just couldn't find the thread. I'm keeping it short, no need for much of an explanation on this one cause i'm pretty sure everyone knows why. Thanks, Griz Can't find it now, but I could have sworn this used to be covered in the rules as well. Intentional transition hopping to gain an advantage in combat was a definite no no. |
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Post by ancientempathy on Jan 9, 2008 15:08:31 GMT -5
If I am not mistaken, this also should include the use of invisibility spells, and potions? When going through transition.
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Post by TermaForever on Jan 9, 2008 15:21:49 GMT -5
Invisibility is magic...if you're drinking a potion its just like any other time...
Stealth though, yes that is a problem. Last I checked NWN's stealth system was a bit broken to begin with so what can you really do.
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Post by ancientempathy on Jan 10, 2008 0:11:00 GMT -5
Invisibility is magic...if you're drinking a potion its just like any other time... In my opinion, I beg to differ with that.. If you're surrounded by 5 guys, then while they're in transition you use an invisibility potion...how's that fun/fair in any way? |
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Post by TermaForever on Jan 10, 2008 8:21:00 GMT -5
In my opinion, I beg to differ with that.. If you're surrounded by 5 guys, then while they're in transition you use an invisibility potion...how's that fun/fair in any way? Granted on that one. Though that is itself a somewhat rare occurrence, I mean how often do you get surrounded by 5 enemies and can actually get anywhere to escape  (you do have a point though but I still don't consider it as much of a problem as stealth. And in my experience, the enemies usually beat me through the transition.  ) |
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Post by HeatherRae on Jan 10, 2008 10:49:04 GMT -5
The stealth system is actually skewed in favor of the Listener. See, if you're in Detect mode, you're constantly making Listen/Spot checks courtesy the engine. You only have to succeed once to see the hidden person. Whereas the stealthed person only makes one check for that hide. Unless their Move Silently is far lower than your Listen, generally they're going to be seen.
I could share stories. Seriously. >.<
Oh, and running across a transition to break Counterspell/get another opportunity to Hide and then turning right around and coming back is called Trans Hopping. It's cheap. And illegal on most servers.
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Post by TermaForever on Jan 10, 2008 11:16:11 GMT -5
Ah cool there is a term for it. And thats true you are making constant checks (I believe in D&D you get one spot check and after that the stabby death begins).
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Post by brian333 on Jan 10, 2008 13:06:04 GMT -5
Trans-hopping, (thanks for the new term!) to flee monsters that will pwn you usually fails, as they will transtion faster than you, and be waiting to smack you when you get through. (Ask me how I know this!)
When running through a transition for your character's life, be ready to run some more and pray their AoO's fail!
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Post by Quadhund/Greenhouse on Jan 10, 2008 13:42:57 GMT -5
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Post by Munroe on Jan 10, 2008 19:04:07 GMT -5
I bumped it, now your number is wrong. :-P I've ran away before without stealth and been chased all the way back to town by a big bad..... bear. Damn those grizzly bears. And that ranger near the ogres just stares at you as you run past. He's no help at all. (I made the mistake of running to him for help. It's hard to type "HELP!" while running.) Maybe he didn't want to get involved, I think an ogre was chasing me too. |
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Post by DM Grizwald on Jan 10, 2008 19:39:57 GMT -5
heh thanks Greenie, I honestly could not see it |
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Post by EDM Entori on Jan 10, 2008 22:37:58 GMT -5
this pvp or pvm? just curious and does it relate to getting into stealth specifically or running through areas to loose that massive bit of orcs that just ate your party?
ent
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Post by Quadhund/Greenhouse on Jan 11, 2008 10:05:22 GMT -5
Both PvP and PvM. Running through trans is to be expected. Stealthing on the other side is not acceptable. Double backing on a trans to take advantage of slower/faster load rates and/or the hopes of breaking monster ai is also not acceptable.
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Post by EDM Entori on Jan 11, 2008 11:35:31 GMT -5
this confuses me a little bit. so if said character is in trouble, I cannot make a run from it through a transition then out of view to a cliff or something to stealth, or are you suggesting to area trans and stealth immediately so that character cannot see you in broad view?
and I understand about doubling back to take advantage of the load rate and your breaking AI.
however I'd like to point out beside that that when invisibility is used, sometimes it takes a area transition to break the lock, which to me I'd like to know how the rules views this. I personally think unless a enemy has a see invisiblity or such once cast and the character moves out of hearing range it should be be able to follow. again if its a ranger or something it may be able to track the character and I can understand that this would be seen as breaking the rules if used to break the lock to gain advantage, I'm talking about getting away on this one.
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Post by TermaForever on Jan 11, 2008 11:55:32 GMT -5
this confuses me a little bit. so if said character is in trouble, I cannot make a run from it through a transition then out of view to a cliff or something to stealth, or are you suggesting to area trans and stealth immediately so that character cannot see you in broad view? and I understand about doubling back to take advantage of the load rate and your breaking AI. however I'd like to point out beside that that when invisibility is used, sometimes it takes a area transition to break the lock, which to me I'd like to know how the rules views this. I personally think unless a enemy has a see invisiblity or such once cast and the character moves out of hearing range it should be be able to follow. again if its a ranger or something it may be able to track the character and I can understand that this would be seen as breaking the rules if used to break the lock to gain advantage, I'm talking about getting away on this one. I think the lock creatures have on invisible players is a price you have to pay to play NWN. Is it fair that invisibility comes across as useless at times for players? No. Its as unfair as the fact enemies roll about thrice as many nat 20's in my experience as I do (could be paranoia). Problem is making exceptions is pronounced "Opening door for exploits" (crazy English language). If that made since to anyone, please explain to me what I just said. |
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Post by dmimmersion on Jan 11, 2008 11:57:28 GMT -5
it is more along the lines of immediatly going into to stealth mode once you load on the other side of the transition.
one.. in most causes, the transition is just a game convention, if they saw you before you hit it... what justification could you make upon being on the other side of the transition when in reality you havent moved all that much geographic wise. It isnt like that transition represent a distance (except for portals and such). Where you come into the next screen is only a few feet away from where you exited the last (once again with the except of portals).
Does this mean once past that transition, if you can get to a place of cover and THEN go stealth is that allowed. Yes it is, as long as your oppenent has also had the time to come through the transition so they are there also since they were there when you hit it in the first place. And if you know the person chasing you has very long load times.. it really isnt fair to use the transition to get some distance between you and them if you know your machine is much faster. With monsters, this isnt so much a problem as the server will put them there before you get through the load screen.
The whole issues of it being bad form and not allowed is when you use the transition to immediatly give yourself a chance to go into stealth mode because the other person hasnt made it through the transition yet. Therefor they arent around game mechanics wise and the ability to enter into stealth becomes active again.
As for invisiblity.. look at in terms of the Predator movie.. he was cloaked but while moving a blurring effect occured. Once you knew what you were looking for, it was easier to follow especially if it was running away. While others might not play it that way, i do.. it is how I can explain seeing people when they get close when under invisibility, I might not know who they are.. but I know SOMETHING is there...
Thats my two cents on the issue.
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Post by HeatherRae on Jan 11, 2008 12:10:51 GMT -5
this confuses me a little bit. so if said character is in trouble, I cannot make a run from it through a transition then out of view to a cliff or something to stealth, or are you suggesting to area trans and stealth immediately so that character cannot see you in broad view? and I understand about doubling back to take advantage of the load rate and your breaking AI. however I'd like to point out beside that that when invisibility is used, sometimes it takes a area transition to break the lock, which to me I'd like to know how the rules views this. I personally think unless a enemy has a see invisiblity or such once cast and the character moves out of hearing range it should be be able to follow. again if its a ranger or something it may be able to track the character and I can understand that this would be seen as breaking the rules if used to break the lock to gain advantage, I'm talking about getting away on this one. What he's talking about is diving through the transition, coming out the other side and hitting Stealth again. The transition breaks Line of Sight, allowing the sneak to make another Hide check and try to keep out of sight of his or her pursuer. Another reason people run through transitions is to break Counterspell. Also to break attacks - if you're on a fast connection, and you dive through a transition, your opponent (especially in a PvP situation) may follow you, but a lot of times if he loads a lot slower than you, his attack is broken by you running off. Essentially, it's an exploit of the engine. If you dive through a transition, and go running down the road and around the corner, that is not trans-hopping (by most definitions, anyway) because you're actually moving into the next area and using the surroundings to hide, not the mere fact that you broke Line of Sight by going through a transition. A good rule of thumb that I was once told was that if you go through a transition in a PvP situation, do a full lap around the area you transition into before returning to the previous area. |
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Post by EDM Entori on Jan 11, 2008 13:11:34 GMT -5
alright.. thats what I thought thanks to arak and immer for clearing that up
ent
edit: sorry dear! and heathrae
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Post by Masterbard Alyster Darkharp on Jan 11, 2008 14:26:32 GMT -5
this confuses me a little bit. so if said character is in trouble, I cannot make a run from it through a transition then out of view to a cliff or something to stealth, or are you suggesting to area trans and stealth immediately so that character cannot see you in broad view? and I understand about doubling back to take advantage of the load rate and your breaking AI. however I'd like to point out beside that that when invisibility is used, sometimes it takes a area transition to break the lock, which to me I'd like to know how the rules views this. I personally think unless a enemy has a see invisiblity or such once cast and the character moves out of hearing range it should be be able to follow. again if its a ranger or something it may be able to track the character and I can understand that this would be seen as breaking the rules if used to break the lock to gain advantage, I'm talking about getting away on this one. I think the lock creatures have on invisible players is a price you have to pay to play NWN. Is it fair that invisibility comes across as useless at times for players? No. Its as unfair as the fact enemies roll about thrice as many nat 20's in my experience as I do (could be paranoia). Problem is making exceptions is pronounced "Opening door for exploits" (crazy English language). If that made since to anyone, please explain to me what I just said. I'm not sure if I have just been lucky, but for me..the monsters seem to lose whatever 'lock' they have on me when invisible as soon as I have moved out of the radius where they would 'see' the ghostly image of me. I sometimes cast invisibility on myself when being chased, and often right as I am finished casting, a monster will get an attack on me (usually hitting me) but as soon as I have run a few feet away they lose track of me and I am able to escape (no transition involved). -V |
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(you do have a point though but I still don't consider it as much of a problem as stealth. And in my experience, the enemies usually beat me through the transition. 
)
