mastersenge
Old School
[orange]Player Advocate[/orange] Scoutmaster of Evil Scouts Troop 1372
"I can't brain today. I've got the dumb."
Posts: 516
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Post by mastersenge on Dec 20, 2007 8:29:23 GMT -5
I play a couple of not so good characters and have had them locked up a few times. I havent really had anyone grief either of them but have had both in situations that makes them hard to play at times. I actually like PVP but dont get involved in it all that often. When my characters get locked up though it isn't for just 2 days. I had one locked up for 3 days recently for a really minor crime where nobody even got hurt. Another time one of my characters spent 8 days locked up just for trying to kill someone and failing at it. Maybe something has changed but making enemies in the game just happens. It's kind of part of playing an evil character.
I have noticed that thing with playing like people know how powerful a character is even if they dont have any IC way to know. I posted a long time ago about one of my characters after he made alot of enemies being toggled hostile by only epic lvl characters. I didnt mind being toggled by the higher lvls I was more upset that the ones around his lvl wouldnt do it even when they had plenty of reason to. Just as many lower lvl characters and characters around his lvl wanted him dead but only the epic ones or close to it would even try or toggle him to dislike.
Also I have killed people before without saying anything and they had no idea why until afterward. I always try to make sure everything is alright oocly afterward. It doesnt always work and people get upset but like others have said before PVP is part of the game.
I started rambling again and forgot where I was goin with this but I thought I had to post something here. Everyone else is lol. Part of the point was that if you make enemies then expect to be locked up or killed and also once you lock someone up or kill them for something it should be done with until they do something else and give people another good reason to do it again. I've never had much trouble getting help from DMs or players in helping to find a good IC way for my characters to come back from the dead or get out of jail, but it usually takes a few days depending on the situation and how youre getting out of it.
I dont think I was dissagreeing with anyone here really I just wanted to post somethin.
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Post by Grozer on Dec 20, 2007 9:30:43 GMT -5
What Irene wrote pretty much sums up my own opinion. The current situation is simply ridiculous - there is currently no way to punish an evil character IC without doing something evil yourself. They torture away happily, permanently damaging PCs emotionally, and all one can do as a good char is killing them, which is completely pointless as they'll just respawn and go on like before anyways, or hand them over to the law where they'll get ... two days? Seriously? This by no means means that I support grieving evil PCs - I avoid PvP myself, Zae has been part of... four PvP fights since I made him two years ago. But I can understand why some good characters might simply be frustrated, which might lead to them not acting correct. I used to hear playing evil was hard - but honestly, nowadays that isn't the impression I get at all. I think we would have a LOT less of pointless PvP though if there was any way to actually punish evil PCs for good aligned chars. As it is now, most good players I talked to are simply frustrated and to but it bluntly, quite pissed about the current situation. First lets put things in context. Spending a couple of days or a week in jail is a VALID punishment for some crimes, there is nothing wrong with someone being locked up for a week real time for assualt or an attack. I guess what you are asking for is something more severe, so what would you propose then? Capital punishment and perma-death? I might consider it so long as when I kill a goodie he/she takes perma-death as well. If not perma-death then what exactly would be your 'ideal' punishment? And keep in mind, some evil characters HAVE have been limited by others' efforts. Just because they arent locked away or perma-killed doesnt mean they arent limited, contained, forced to hide, etc. Aside from that, the other option is to remove evil PCs altogether.
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mourndarkv
Proven Member
If love is the brightest light, what doth it's shadows cast?
Posts: 157
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Post by mourndarkv on Dec 20, 2007 9:43:06 GMT -5
Thyrm, Irene.. I agree. There is a reason Tremain Dawnseeker is pretty much a cameo character now. I mean, you cannot really do much to most of the evil without seeming like a griefer, and in the rare occasion when you do have one dead to rights, they manage to get away.
I am not for ruining peoples fun or perma killing characters, but I have seen some really amazing escapes (divine or infernal intervention) for some villains, which I have never seen the equal side to on the good guy side. I mean, when goody folk are being abused, killed.. mutilated.. it just doesn't seem like their divine influences care as much.
Now, I DO play good and bad people, though I prefer my evil more subtle. And, I agree that it is NOT difficult to play evil, granted I don't go run amok causing trouble openly much, simply because I'd be dead meat if I did do such. (My highest levels are 10).
However, many of my evils are clearly evil, or at least not very nice. It doesn't seem to keep them out of groups though. Heh, poor Tremy used to see adventuring parties run away in terror at the presence of a Paladin. (And, to me he isn't even self righteous as most).
So, I can see and agree with the aggravation of the "good" characters. I just decided if i couldn't beat them, I'd join them. So, I have a few baddies skulking about.
Anyway, thats my two cents!
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Post by Haydena on Dec 20, 2007 9:59:09 GMT -5
Between jailing them, exiling them and permadeath? No, I don't think so. I think this is one of those things that we have to deal with. What can frustrate me is when I see a few evil characters get brutally murdered by a 'good' character, and simply use the excuse "He's a wanted man! And I'm doing everyone a service!" and getting away with it without repercussions.
My characters don't like Elvewyn in the slightest, because he's rude and obnoxious towards them. Even commenting on something gruesome about one of Lidda's friends right in front of her, and laughing about it. I know this wasn't intended as an argument, and so I'll just say, that my characters have their reasons.
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Post by DM Richard (Retired) on Dec 20, 2007 10:14:46 GMT -5
I do have to take the other side of this issue, though, in that there are players who are openly evil by both word and deed. These fellows feel that the griefing rules protect them from the consequences of their own actions! If you are known to be a doer of heinous and/or criminal acts, why do you feel an OOC rule should protect your character from retribution? There is a difference between consequences of your actions when they are witnessed and gossip, rudeness or dressing in black. If you see someone walking down the street in black carrying a skull tipped staff do you trust them? (probably not) Do you assume they are "evil"? (maybe) Do you attack them? (no) They have committed no actions. If you attack them you are basing your actions off of a stereotype and have murdered someone because of how they look! You would be the "evil" one and a lawbreaker. Remember the griefing rules are only a part of the PvP rules. PvP should be role-played at all times and "I am Evil" or "He is Evil" is not an acceptable reason for PvP.
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irene
Proven Member
Posts: 226
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Post by irene on Dec 20, 2007 10:49:08 GMT -5
First lets put things in context. Spending a couple of days or a week in jail is a VALID punishment for some crimes, there is nothing wrong with someone being locked up for a week real time for assualt or an attack. I guess what you are asking for is something more severe, so what would you propose then? Capital punishment and perma-death? I might consider it so long as when I kill a goodie he/she takes perma-death as well. If not perma-death then what exactly would be your 'ideal' punishment? And keep in mind, some evil characters HAVE have been limited by others' efforts. Just because they arent locked away or perma-killed doesnt mean they arent limited, contained, forced to hide, etc. Aside from that, the other option is to remove evil PCs altogether. Permadeath should be an option open when there is a DM involved. Possible even a DM discussion. For characters of all alignments. On a server I used to play there was this sergeant of the guard in a very unpleasant place. He was a very unpleasant man. In fact, he was by far the most terrifying bad guy I have ever seen role-played. And he developed from being someone you'd scare small children with to become the stuff nightmares are made of. During this the player of the character clearly realized that this could not go on. He gradually changed from being just another PC to something like a player controlled NPC. Eventually he was more a monster than anything else. Then he died. He died an epic death, worthy of his crimes. His remains was cremated and his head was placed on a stake, for all to see. Jubilations and joy arose everywhere. He even, shortly after, made a cameo appearance as an undead, scaring everybody witless. But he was, and stayed dead. For good! It was epic! This player created a legend. On that server people still speak the characters name in a hushed voice. The old players will tell new arrivals of this man. He may be dead, but truly he lives forever. What we have now is... "Oh... was (insert name) tortured/killed/mutilated, by the evil (insert name)? -shrugs- Join the club". There need to be a consequence to play a monster. And one of them should at least be that people don't run around openly where they are wanted.
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Post by DM Richard (Retired) on Dec 20, 2007 10:56:33 GMT -5
Reading this thread I see that:
1. "good" people are frustrated because they can't win against "evil" people.
2. "Evil" people are frustrated because "good" people are killing just because someone is "evil".
My response:
1. The fact of the matter is that neither side can win against the other. There is no permanent "win" for anyone. If you don't believe me feel free to PM me. If you are wanting a permanent win... GET OVER IT.
2. The rules are the same for everyone. The problem arises when people act outside their alignment. "Evil" characters should act "evil" and "good" characters should act "good". "Lawful" characters need to follow the law while "chaotic" break the law. There is a price for these actions but it is not PERMANENT.
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Myth
Old School
Retired FRC DM
The Myth
Posts: 686
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Post by Myth on Dec 20, 2007 11:02:29 GMT -5
What can frustrate me is when I see a few evil characters get brutally murdered by a 'good' character, and simply use the excuse "He's a wanted man! And I'm doing everyone a service!" and getting away with it without repercussions. Well... if a man is wanted dead or alive in Cormyr and someone kills him and delivers him to the authorities should be treated as something that is not in spirit of the setting, I rest my case. Perhaps then we should take extra care that no one is named Wanted or just ignore the "WANTED/Criminal Registry Topic"... And remember, reprecautions exist. Try assaulting openly a criminal and you'll find out if his fellows will come after you or not. You might be surprised.
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Post by brian333 on Dec 20, 2007 11:15:53 GMT -5
I agree with Richard, with one caveat:
Gossip does, in the real world, affect how a person is treated, and it should in a fantasy setting. Just because you didn't see the guy drown those kittens doesn't mean that rumor won't ruin him socially, even if it's false.
I'm not advocating the use of gossip as an excuse for PvP. In fact, I agree with Richard 100% on that point. But why do the doers of deeds that generate gossip feel immune from any form of persecution?
Instead, such characters stand around flaunting their deeds in front of their victims, relying upon a 'punishment' which somehow absolves them from any further stigma. The rest of the playerbase is supposed to ignore this really bad example of RP by the convicted evildoer in the interest of preserving his fun.
Banning from towns in which the deeds were done, or within which the citizens who have been their victim live, should be the least of the penalties assessed upon these fellows. Even without outright banning, gossip would cause the town guards to make their stay in such locations short and uncomfortable. (Watch an old western or two for examples of this.)
Those players who know their character is subject of such gossip should play appropriately. Stay away from their former victims and the towns in which they were convicted, because they should feel unwelcome there. Do some sort of roleplay that recognizes the changed circumstances without resorting to "The DM gave me two days punishment, I'm done, you can't mess with me!"
There is another option: Players of PC's who have been caught in the act and/or convicted could voluntarily roleplay their status as convicts; they should shun crowds and city guards and hide when a party of paladins comes by. This can be as fun as, or moreso than, getting a two-week sentence. Not only does it give verisimilitude to the evil character, it generates roleplay for others.
Also, it could give those openly evil characters good reason to cluster in towns such as Redmist where they would be openly tolerated, which in turn makes it easier to find evil mates for adventures and adds a seedy, dangerous atmosphere to an almost unused bastion of evil.
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Post by wynter on Dec 20, 2007 11:57:14 GMT -5
bah KILL EM ALL ;D
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Post by DM Richard (Retired) on Dec 20, 2007 12:30:21 GMT -5
I agree with Richard, with one caveat: Gossip does, in the real world, affect how a person is treated, and it should in a fantasy setting. Just because you didn't see the guy drown those kittens doesn't mean that rumor won't ruin him socially, even if it's false. I'm not advocating the use of gossip as an excuse for PvP. In fact, I agree with Richard 100% on that point. Social shunning is RP not PvP. Immune to ANY form of persecution? What makes you think they feel like that? The ones I've watched know they will be persecuted. They know people will work against them and even PvP them. They know they will not be welcome in most groups. What they are concerned with is blatant PvP without justifiable cause. If you have a justifiable reason for killing them they don't get worked up over it. Maybe you should PM me about what you are talking about because I really don't get it. If someone breaks the law and does his time in jail, once they are released they shouldn't be paying for the crime continually except for social shunning at worst.
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irene
Proven Member
Posts: 226
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Post by irene on Dec 20, 2007 12:48:09 GMT -5
Reading this thread I see that: 1. "good" people are frustrated because they can't win against "evil" people. 2. "Evil" people are frustrated because "good" people are killing just because someone is "evil". My response: 1. The fact of the matter is that neither side can win against the other. There is no permanent "win" for anyone. If you don't believe me feel free to PM me. If you are wanting a permanent win... GET OVER IT. 2. The rules are the same for everyone. The problem arises when people act outside their alignment. "Evil" characters should act "evil" and "good" characters should act "good". "Lawful" characters need to follow the law while "chaotic" break the law. There is a price for these actions but it is not PERMANENT. I dont think there is anyone who wants a permanent win, as in kill all evil or all good, all lawfull and all chaotic. That being said, the possibility of some actions being so grave that they could lead to permadeath would be nice, in my opinion. That aside. While the official rules might be same for everyone, the actual circumstances are not. Good and neutral alligned playes need to be able to somehow get back at those who has caused them harm. As it is, they are not. What can good and neutral alligned characters do? When you accuse someone of a crime, by sending a letter to the courthouse in Suzail, regarding a crime that has taken place within Cormyr (posted under letters to the Crown) and you never even get as much as an acknowledgment that the letter is received, let alone see or hear anything that points towards the matter being investigated, what options are left but breaking the law as well? When someone is listed under "wanted", and yet repeatedly is seen wander about Suzail, without even bothering with a disguise, how can you take the law-enforcement serous? When someone is arrested and imprisoned a week for assault, and his intended victim turns up in a mutilated state a few days after the wrongdoer was released, and it is not looked into, what are you supposed to do? It seems to me that all of non-evil alignment are asked to nod and smile to those who use abduction, murder and torture. And if they conclude that enough is enough, since the law is not acting, they will act themself, then that is wrong to. Sorry, but to me it seems deeply flawed.
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Post by Aodhan the Unusual on Dec 20, 2007 12:54:32 GMT -5
Someone mentioned something about assassins... As a player of a wanna be one and playing around those that have been, I can tell you the best assassins are the ones that RP all the way to the point of death of their target. True a lot of planning goes into it before hand, but take a certain tailor. She lures unsuspecting victims into her store, sizes them up, and kills them without them even realizing they were being set up for it.
So being an assassin doesn't mean just sneak up and kill. THere IS the chance for RP.
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Post by DM Richard (Retired) on Dec 20, 2007 13:47:03 GMT -5
I dont think there is anyone who wants a permanent win, as in kill all evil or all good, all lawfull and all chaotic. That being said, the possibility of some actions being so grave that they could lead to permadeath would be nice, in my opinion. I see. It isn't wanted. It just would be nice if some people were killed off occasionally. Do I have any volunteers on either side? There have been some in the past. How about anyone that has played their character for 2 years or more? If the person breaking the law doesn't leave a trace there isn't anything you can do. If you are killed your character doesn't even remember the last 30 minutes. However any NPC's or even PC's that survive and escape will remember. It will be handy if you screen shot when you witness an illegal act showing the NPC witnesses around the area, and the perpetrator. How about PMing a DM to let them know or to remind them that you have a letter there. The problem here isn't that "evil" is getting free reign as much as it is something slipping through the cracks with our busy lives. I doubt we have been keeping the "Wanted" thread up to date. Not to mention that just because someone is "Wanted" does it mean everyone in Cormyr recognizes them. Once again was it reported? Also was the person mutilated someone that routinely goes out fighting monsters? Turning up mutilated in a inn is much different than turning up mutilated out among the Orcs. I hope you understand better now because otherwise it seems to me that what you really want is for "good" to triumph or "evil". Personally I would rather the server be non-pvp period. All it fosters is a you vs. me attitude and frustration.
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abby
Old School
Posts: 323
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Post by abby on Dec 20, 2007 13:48:43 GMT -5
Also, people have to keep in mind that the bad guys on the server are very much outnumbered and though sometimes it may not seem like it.. they are typically hunted so often that for the players, it stops being fun after a while and they end up retiring their characters.
If you knew the crap Ranan has gone through over the years you'd thank him for sticking around. For long periods that guy is basically trapped in Redmist because to leave is to get bum-rushed by every good guy with a hope of winning. Sometimes he isnt even safe in Redmist in his own town hall that is supposed to be swarming with guards and wizards (though you cannot see them.) When there is a lot of PvP plots going on, its probaby not uncommon for him to be the lead roll in multiple assasination attempts a day... and they arent all unsuccessful.
Try to remember, these people are providing thinking, scheming villians for the good guys to oppose. We WANT them here. We WANT them to have fun. To this end, the goodguys have to be able to suspend realism so that baddies can continue being bad so we can continue being good. Sure the monster who tortures people for fun may only get 5 days in the pokey for his criimes, but imagine how dull it would be if he left the server and your worst enemey was those loveable A.I. drivin orcs!
We are living in a semi-corrupt government where bad guys continue to get off the hook and it is up to the good guys to make certain they dont dominate. If you could count on the law to fight them for you... i.e. getting the guards and having them take out all the baddies, then well... that would be boring! If you are one of the goodies who feels outnumbered or overmatch... make alliances with stronger PCs... strength in numbers and all that.
But really do try to remember that for the bad guys, they have a very limited amount of things they can do. They can only go to certain towns typically, and if they are ever caught out on an adventure wounded, they are probably going to get mauled by the good guys.
Just try to do you part to keep it fun for them so we can look forward to many years of belting bad guys in the teeth.
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abby
Old School
Posts: 323
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Post by abby on Dec 20, 2007 13:50:00 GMT -5
Also, people have to keep in mind that the bad guys on the server are very much outnumbered and though sometimes it may not seem like it.. they are typically hunted so often that for the players, it stops being fun after a while and they end up retiring their characters.
If you knew the crap Ranan has gone through over the years you'd thank him for sticking around. For long periods that guy is basically trapped in Redmist because to leave is to get bum-rushed by every good guy with a hope of winning. Sometimes he isnt even safe in Redmist in his own town hall that is supposed to be swarming with guards and wizards (though you cannot see them.) When there is a lot of PvP plots going on, its probaby not uncommon for him to be the lead roll in multiple assasination attempts a day... and they arent all unsuccessful.
Try to remember, these people are providing thinking, scheming villians for the good guys to oppose. We WANT them here. We WANT them to have fun. To this end, the goodguys have to be able to suspend realism so that baddies can continue being bad so we can continue being good. Sure the monster who tortures people for fun may only get 5 days in the pokey for his criimes, but imagine how dull it would be if he left the server and your worst enemey was those loveable A.I. drivin orcs!
We are living in a semi-corrupt government where bad guys continue to get off the hook and it is up to the good guys to make certain they dont dominate. If you could count on the law to fight them for you... i.e. getting the guards and having them take out all the baddies, then well... that would be boring! If you are one of the goodies who feels outnumbered or overmatch... make alliances with stronger PCs... strength in numbers and all that.
But really do try to remember that for the bad guys, they have a very limited amount of things they can do. They can only go to certain towns typically, and if they are ever caught out on an adventure wounded, they are probably going to get mauled by the good guys.
Just try to do you part to keep it fun for them so we can look forward to many years of belting bad guys in the teeth.
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Post by ancientempathy on Dec 20, 2007 14:11:11 GMT -5
I see. It isn't wanted. It just would be nice if some people were killed off occasionally. Do I have any volunteers on either side? There have been some in the past. How about anyone that has played their character for 2 years or more? I'm personally not sentimental towards that. I would wager said person(s) would likely have made other characters too, developed decently I'd imagine, within the course of those two years, to fall back on. Martyrs? I'll not put it past me to permadeath Randal after his first PvP battle. But yes I know, that is just me, etc etc., but even to those who have played their characters for so long...why not try it? It's not hard. It's a character. True a certain string of emotion is likely attached but geez...=\ I had a CE fighter I perm'd about a month or two ago. No PvP battle even. He just fought too hard at his old age and died too many times, so, he didn't want to come back. I had a lot of fun stuff plotted out for him etc. But hey, in my opinion - death is serious, and if youre character dies so many times...then I think its time to bite the bullet. May it be through PvP or PvM deaths.
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Post by Masterbard Alyster Darkharp on Dec 20, 2007 14:17:10 GMT -5
I think this topic is a good one, but one that is going to raise tensions and bad feelings between the good and evil camps simply by being brought up.
I think the best solution is to remember that one of the server rules is to have fun, but not at the expense of others. If everyone could be a little more considerate of each other, and what may be making the server less fun for some people, we would all be alot better off. I've managed to play the same character for the last ten months and only be involved in I think 3 pvp encounters, and one was part of a major DM plot.
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Post by ShadowCatJen on Dec 20, 2007 14:18:52 GMT -5
Touching a little bit on what Abby has said...
It's for many of these reasons that the DMs end up aiding the evil sorts. Not to see that they are always successful, but to make sure everything is done in a fair manner on both sides.
Unfortunately, this is always seen as being favoritism towards the evil PCs. This is because it's usually the largest thing that is gossiped about both IC and OOCly. The view on it gets twisted and perceived to be favoritism because of the evil PC getting away without some form of extreme punishment.
But people need to keep something in mind. These are evil Player Characters. A person at a keyboard is playing that character and expecting their time and effort to not be for nothing. Evil PCs need to be mentally separated from evil NPCs just for this fact.
An evil NPC is played by a DM who expects the players to eventually win against it. That NPC can suffer the ultimate fate of losing and dying and it won't hurt the DM controlling them because it's expected. And it's really funny how when the good aligned win against the evil NPC that it isn't heard of much after the fact.
For example:
The Silent Dominion. The good guys won. It was hard fought and you heard some of the victory afterward. What you don't hear in OOC gossip, however, is this:
"Well, there go the DMs again, giving favoritism to the good guys and letting them win. I'm really getting tired of that. The evil guys never seem to win."
Again, the double standard rearing it's head.
Evil PCs have a severe disadvantage to the great number of good/neutral aligned PCs that play. It's because of this disadvantage that the crew sometimes has to pay a little bit more attention to them. Again, not for favoritism, but to try and keep things fair and fun.
And fun, is ultimately, what this game is supposed to be for all not just one alignment or group.
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JCrux
Old School
Posts: 603
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Post by JCrux on Dec 20, 2007 14:23:26 GMT -5
What Irene wrote pretty much sums up my own opinion. The current situation is simply ridiculous - there is currently no way to punish an evil character IC without doing something evil yourself. They torture away happily, permanently damaging PCs emotionally, and all one can do as a good char is killing them, which is completely pointless as they'll just respawn and go on like before anyways, or hand them over to the law where they'll get ... two days? Seriously? This by no means means that I support grieving evil PCs - I avoid PvP myself, Zae has been part of... four PvP fights since I made him two years ago. But I can understand why some good characters might simply be frustrated, which might lead to them not acting correct. I used to hear playing evil was hard - but honestly, nowadays that isn't the impression I get at all. I think we would have a LOT less of pointless PvP though if there was any way to actually punish evil PCs for good aligned chars. As it is now, most good players I talked to are simply frustrated and to but it bluntly, quite pissed about the current situation. I'm in total agreement with this. I've had several conversations IC where good characters are at a loss as to what to do. Killing isn't permanent. Standing in Isinhold seems to give everyone immunity. And being in the criminal registry doesn't keep anyone from walking through Suzail. Wouldn't the city guards recognize them? Maybe its a lack of imagination on our part, but I know some good characters/players are frustrated with their options. I would love to hear some ideas as to what they can do besides waiting for opportunities to waylay a foe out in the wild. A few of you have mentioned confrontation dialog. Are there other ideas? PS I write this as one who's been around for one and a half years and my only PvP has been friendly sparring.
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Post by ancientempathy on Dec 20, 2007 14:23:50 GMT -5
Touching a little bit on what Abby has said... It's for many of these reasons that the DMs end up aiding the evil sorts. Not to see that they are always successful, but to make sure everything is done in a fair manner on both sides. Unfortunately, this is always seen as being favoritism towards the evil PCs. This is because it's usually the largest thing that is gossiped about both IC and OOCly. The view on it gets twisted and perceived to be favoritism because of the evil PC getting away without some form of extreme punishment. But people need to keep something in mind. These are evil Player Characters. A person at a keyboard is playing that character and expecting their time and effort to not be for nothing. Evil PCs need to be mentally separated from evil NPCs just for this fact. An evil NPC is played by a DM who expects the players to eventually win against it. That NPC can suffer the ultimate fate of losing and dying and it won't hurt the DM controlling them because it's expected. And it's really funny how when the good aligned win against the evil NPC that it isn't heard of much after the fact. For example: The Silent Dominion. The good guys won. It was hard fought and you heard some of the victory afterward. What you don't hear in OOC gossip, however, is this: "Well, there go the DMs again, giving favoritism to the good guys and letting them win. I'm really getting tired of that. The evil guys never seem to win." Again, the double standard rearing it's head. Evil PCs have a severe disadvantage to the great number of good/neutral aligned PCs that play. It's because of this disadvantage that the crew sometimes has to pay a little bit more attention to them. Again, not for favoritism, but to try and keep things fair and fun. And fun, is ultimately, what this game is supposed to be for all not just one alignment or group. Very well said And I would think that things would be pretty boring for gooders if all our evilers were scared away lol
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Post by ancientempathy on Dec 20, 2007 14:25:37 GMT -5
What Irene wrote pretty much sums up my own opinion. The current situation is simply ridiculous - there is currently no way to punish an evil character IC without doing something evil yourself. They torture away happily, permanently damaging PCs emotionally, and all one can do as a good char is killing them, which is completely pointless as they'll just respawn and go on like before anyways, or hand them over to the law where they'll get ... two days? Seriously? This by no means means that I support grieving evil PCs - I avoid PvP myself, Zae has been part of... four PvP fights since I made him two years ago. But I can understand why some good characters might simply be frustrated, which might lead to them not acting correct. I used to hear playing evil was hard - but honestly, nowadays that isn't the impression I get at all. I think we would have a LOT less of pointless PvP though if there was any way to actually punish evil PCs for good aligned chars. As it is now, most good players I talked to are simply frustrated and to but it bluntly, quite pissed about the current situation. I'm in total agreement with this. I've had several conversations IC where good characters are at a loss as to what to do. Killing isn't permanent. Standing in Isinhold seems to give everyone immunity. And being in the criminal registry doesn't keep anyone from walking through Suzail. Wouldn't the city guards recognize them? Maybe its a lack of imagination on our part, but I know some good characters/players are frustrated with their options. I would love to hear some ideas as to what they can do besides waiting for opportunities to waylay a foe out in the wild. A few of you have mentioned confrontation dialog. Are there other ideas? PS I write this as one who's been around for one and a half years and my only PvP has been friendly sparring. Move out of Isinhold ;D Then stay in 'Cormyr'. That way maybe if you see someone wanted there you could report it to the guards right away? If you've seen someone wanted, in Cormyr, then shouldnt a report have been done in any case?
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Post by Masterbard Alyster Darkharp on Dec 20, 2007 14:26:23 GMT -5
Well..on the topic of the Silent Dominion plot...all the good guys..*coughs* Weren't exactly good, we simply commited 'means to an end evil' and aided the good guys. I actually recieved a total of 18 evil points, and 0 good points in the coarse of fighting the silent dominion (though I am still not evil as far as stated alignment). Thats right, I said in the coarse of fighting the silent dominion. I also didn't hear any complaints from good aligned people who were partied with us and recieved evil points as a side effect of certain magics used.
Edit: Though ironically, it is still seen as 'the good guys won' again. Since most of the credit for defeating the dominion did go to the good guys.
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Post by gathera on Dec 20, 2007 14:28:03 GMT -5
Having experienced this from the "other" side in Red Mist it does give you a certain perspective to the situations mentioned. The one thing that I came to realize was the price of getting caught and failure. As mentioned in other posts the question arises what will you do once said "villain" is apprehended, execute the traitor? It is really a rather sticky situation. So yes other devices need to be used like the revolving door prisons, jail break, fixed trials or another pledging themselves in your stead. Even then there is a bit of a sense of a stretch in the plot. My advice is just don't be bloody Colombo super sleuth when meeting up with said dastardly villains out in the vast realm. There are in many places countless other people about just not represented for bandwidth issues. Why should you be able to "pick" one out of the crowd, your god like "spot". Believe me it only serves to wreck any RP opportunities that might arise. Cut them some slack. If you not into PvP just send them a tell saying so. The vile blood thirsty villain in game is not the same person on the other side of the avatar. So yes, look the other way, say hello and be pleasant. Let them have the first blow if they want. It will be more entertaining for both of you in the long run.
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Post by ShadowCatJen on Dec 20, 2007 14:32:08 GMT -5
Well..on the topic of the Silent Dominion plot...all the good guys..*coughs* Weren't exactly good, we simply commited 'means to an end evil' and aided the good guys. I actually recieved a total of 18 evil points, and 0 good points in the coarse of fighting the silent dominion (though I am still not evil as far as stated alignment). Thats right, I said in the coarse of fighting the silent dominion. I also didn't hear any complaints from good aligned people who were partied with us and recieved evil points as a side effect of certain magics used. Ahem, well, when I say the good guys won it means all our PCs are not under the thrall of the Dominion right now and waiting their turn in line to become deaders. This is a good thing, right?
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Post by Masterbard Alyster Darkharp on Dec 20, 2007 14:34:37 GMT -5
Hmmm...I guess that is a good thing SCJen...though we could have gotten closer to 4th edition FR had we lost.
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ManyAsOne
Old School
Retired FRC DM
Posts: 365
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Post by ManyAsOne on Dec 20, 2007 14:37:17 GMT -5
Well..on the topic of the Silent Dominion plot...all the good guys..*coughs* Weren't exactly good, we simply commited 'means to an end evil' and aided the good guys. I actually recieved a total of 18 evil points, and 0 good points in the coarse of fighting the silent dominion (though I am still not evil as far as stated alignment). Thats right, I said in the coarse of fighting the silent dominion. I also didn't hear any complaints from good aligned people who were partied with us and recieved evil points as a side effect of certain magics used. Ahem, well, when I say the good guys won it means all our PCs are not under the thrall of the Dominion right now and waiting their turn in line to become deaders. This is a good thing, right? Undead slavery...? Sounds good to me. Where do I sign up?
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Post by DM Richard (Retired) on Dec 20, 2007 14:49:44 GMT -5
What Irene wrote pretty much sums up my own opinion. The current situation is simply ridiculous - there is currently no way to punish an evil character IC without doing something evil yourself. They torture away happily, permanently damaging PCs emotionally, and all one can do as a good char is killing them, which is completely pointless as they'll just respawn and go on like before anyways, or hand them over to the law where they'll get ... two days? Seriously? This by no means means that I support grieving evil PCs - I avoid PvP myself, Zae has been part of... four PvP fights since I made him two years ago. But I can understand why some good characters might simply be frustrated, which might lead to them not acting correct. I used to hear playing evil was hard - but honestly, nowadays that isn't the impression I get at all. I think we would have a LOT less of pointless PvP though if there was any way to actually punish evil PCs for good aligned chars. As it is now, most good players I talked to are simply frustrated and to but it bluntly, quite pissed about the current situation. I'm in total agreement with this. I've had several conversations IC where good characters are at a loss as to what to do. Killing isn't permanent. Standing in Isinhold seems to give everyone immunity. And being in the criminal registry doesn't keep anyone from walking through Suzail. Wouldn't the city guards recognize them? Maybe its a lack of imagination on our part, but I know some good characters/players are frustrated with their options. I would love to hear some ideas as to what they can do besides waiting for opportunities to waylay a foe out in the wild. A few of you have mentioned confrontation dialog. Are there other ideas? PS I write this as one who's been around for one and a half years and my only PvP has been friendly sparring. Hmmm lets see here the problem is what? It isn't that "good" guys can't defend themselves. It isn't that "evil" guys are picking on them. Oh I see "evil" guys aren't under constant attack or punishment. How does this effect the "good" guy? Do you get hurt because he isn't arrested? Do the Redmist NPC guards arrest "good" PC's on entry? Does his having a "win" against an NPC hurt you? You get "wins" against NPC monsters all the time. Once again everything is us vs. them. If they aren't suffering we must be. If your success is measured by another players loss...
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Post by EDM Entori on Dec 20, 2007 15:03:39 GMT -5
really, there has to be win/lose situations on both sides, to me it seems to need balance. That balance needs to be tought of not in the 'right now' frame of mind. But, in the 'long term', sure evil gets a hoof in there and again. thats fun!, its be bloody damn boring without lorkus/rannan and others.
However, the balance needs to go both ways, which is does. and as SCjen, said due to the apparent lack of evil PC's, they're victories are apparently a bit more sweet tasting when they do happen, and it should be, if there is such a lack... which I don't believe there is, in Numbers, just the many that don't mingle/ play as often, and again I'm talking about the consistent folk..but thats not the issue.
I think the community basis is that there needs to be a balance, and from what I get from recent posts that people feel 'wronged' by having no means to get back at the evil players...
really no one can ever do so, cause no one can die permanently or that, so I'm with ancient E in ways people can even RP getting back at evil doers, I've hit that wall of 'how can I Get back at xx for xx"
But the main point for the gooders, is that, good wins so much its almost common, that it goes unnoticed, evil gets a hand up, and everyone notices.
its just keeping the player perspective, as it was mentioned, and I agree that remembering everyone is here for fun and enjoyment is helpful.. thinking its gone a bit off topic, but maybe keeping that player perspective or finding more in depth reasons for having your characters act, is what grozers first post was getting at.
Don
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Post by kasin on Dec 20, 2007 15:12:18 GMT -5
I'm in total agreement with this. I've had several conversations IC where good characters are at a loss as to what to do. Killing isn't permanent. Standing in Isinhold seems to give everyone immunity. And being in the criminal registry doesn't keep anyone from walking through Suzail. Wouldn't the city guards recognize them? Maybe its a lack of imagination on our part, but I know some good characters/players are frustrated with their options. I would love to hear some ideas as to what they can do besides waiting for opportunities to waylay a foe out in the wild. A few of you have mentioned confrontation dialog. Are there other ideas? PS I write this as one who's been around for one and a half years and my only PvP has been friendly sparring. Hmmm lets see here the problem is what? It isn't that "good" guys can't defend themselves. It isn't that "evil" guys are picking on them. Oh I see "evil" guys aren't under constant attack or punishment. How does this effect the "good" guy? Do you get hurt because he isn't arrested? Do the Redmist NPC guards arrest "good" PC's on entry? Does his having a "win" against an NPC hurt you? You get "wins" against NPC monsters all the time. Once again everything is us vs. them. If they aren't suffering we must be. If your success is measured by another players loss... I could be wrong, but what I'm reading is that players are perhaps placing the same standards of justice they see in their everyday life as appropriate for an IG environment. In RL, the mass murderer,(even if it takes years), is caught, tried, and generally imprisoned for life, or executed if you live in one of those states. Unfortunately, due the the nature of the game, it's difficult to apply those same standards/expectations IG. It would suck the fun right out of playing the evil sorts if the only recourse was basically perma death/ prison for life. IMO the only reasonable course is to take a step back, suspend the disbelief and get back to playing the game. Yea, he only got jailed for 2 days, or you PvP'd and killed him. Alright, that chapter is over and now we move on to the next. Even in RL, some days the villains get away on technicalities, get paroled, get overlooked, or just get away. Is the suspension of disbelief asking too much to make it fun and perhaps more sane for everyone involved?
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