Clarification of RP

[Grozer]

If some of you could indulge me a moment, I'd like some help to understand. While DMs are more than welcome to chime in, I really would like clarification from players. This is really meant to start a discussion not an arguement so lets keep that in mind. I realize this is a topic that can easily get out of hand but I have to believe we can have a logical conversation about it.

I have been scratching my head trying to understand the logic of why a large number of people are hunting Elvewyn. Hmm.. yeah possible obvious reasons as somehow people learned he was converted, I'll let that one go.

But here's the thing, I dont get how that is something he is to be hunted for. I play some alts, some obvious others not and I have seen some of the grief this player is receiving.... IC reasons I've heard:

1. "You hang around bad people."
2. "Because you're evil"
3. "You shouldnt have turned evil."

Almost NOTHING more substantial than that... so it begs the question why are you NOT hunting Ranan, Edward, Tori or a host of other known evil PCs? To take it one step further, some that made these comments, I have seen buddy buddy with other known evil types... I dont get it? Again this is not about pointing out names I just want to understand HOW this time its different?

To the first reason, why didn't you hunt other players that hang around evil types, heck I have seen Sharita talking with Tori and Phelzaron (No offense to either one of you three just using this as an example, this is only one but I am sure you can all think of a few others)?

Is hunting someone because they are evil the 'new' RP substitute reason to use since the Western Reaches Accord prevents persecution based on faith?

In my opinion, its a pretty weak RP reason, not to mention it seems very inconsistent in the way its being applied. Don't get me wrong I am not 'jealous' that Ranan is not hunted I am merely suggesting IF that is your basis, then shouldn't it be applied evenly irregardless of the players level? If not then to me, its merely a trumped up excuse to go after him.

I raised this topic not only for my own understanding but also because Elvewyn has shared with me his experiences since the conversion and really isnt sure what to make of it all... I havent been able to give him better reasons honestly.

Interestingly enough, he has been told that a DM authorized the hunting of Elvewyn but no one will reveal who gave this go ahead. I dont understand the secrecy on this one.

[kasin]

grozer said:

If some of you could indulge me a moment, I'd like some help to understand. While DMs are more than welcome to chime in, I really would like clarification from players. This is really meant to start a discussion not an arguement so lets keep that in mind. I realize this is a topic that can easily get out of hand but I have to believe we can have a logical conversation about it.

I have been scratching my head trying to understand the logic of why a large number of people are hunting Elvewyn. Hmm.. yeah possible obvious reasons as somehow people learned he was converted, I'll let that one go.

But here's the thing, I dont get how that is something he is to be hunted for. I play some alts, some obvious others not and I have seen some of the grief this player is receiving.... IC reasons I've heard:

1. "You hang around bad people."
2. "Because you're evil"
3. "You shouldnt have turned evil."

Almost NOTHING more substantial than that... so it begs the question why are you NOT hunting Ranan, Edward, Tori or a host of other known evil PCs? To take it one step further, some that made these comments, I have seen buddy buddy with other known evil types... I dont get it? Again this is not about pointing out names I just want to understand HOW this time its different?

To the first reason, why didn't you hunt other players that hang around evil types, heck I have seen Sharita talking with Tori and Phelzaron (No offense to either one of you three just using this as an example, this is only one but I am sure you can all think of a few others)?

Is hunting someone because they are evil the 'new' RP substitute reason to use since the Western Reaches Accord prevents persecution based on faith?

In my opinion, its a pretty weak RP reason, not to mention it seems very inconsistent in the way its being applied. Don't get me wrong I am not 'jealous' that Ranan is not hunted I am merely suggesting IF that is your basis, then shouldn't it be applied evenly irregardless of the players level? If not then to me, its merely a trumped up excuse to go after him.

I raised this topic not only for my own understanding but also because Elvewyn has shared with me his experiences since the conversion and really isnt sure what to make of it all... I havent been able to give him better reasons honestly.

Interestingly enough, he has been told that a DM authorized the hunting of Elvewyn but no one will reveal who gave this go ahead. I dont understand the secrecy on this one.

I think much of this stems from a perspective that he betrayed a certain group and therefore has become hunted by those with a direct interest. Since they're an incredibly secretive bunch and share very little with those outside their circle, I'm not suprised that little has been heard from them. This secrecy for the most part is encouraged, and though it isn't easy for those on the outside to know what's going on, in their own circle, from what little I've seen, this group tends to RP these issues out at length.

As far as him being the only one hunted. IIRC, very recently Edward seemed to be in a similar situation.


OTOH, the reasons you listed do sound pretty weak for PvP. The only one I would comment on is the point on pc's who seem buddy, buddy with evil pc's. Yes, I think many would agree that this happens often. However, it has to be asked, does the pc know IC that who they're dealing with is evil?( Several evil pc's have managed to do a pretty good job of concealing their true motives.) If they do, then yes, it's poor form unless they have a specific reason for travelling/ adventuring with that PC, and the differences are RP'd along the way.

Conversation with known evils I think would be dependant on the circumstance. You can hate them, but it doesn't mean you have to be rude unless that's the way you're PC would handle it.
See above for non RP reasoning and buddy, buddy behavior.

[Myth]

I'd like just to add something for our consideration. Something that I have often thought of in times when I was feeling in a similar way:

We say sometimes that people choose usually to hunt those that are lower level than them. In reality what happens to my perception is that most of those that observe, ask, learn about someone, be he of any alignment or faction, usually can get a good idea of how powerful he is, ICly. When for example a mage is seen casting 9th level spells all know he's of great power. Similarly seeing some warrior get defeated by ogres would speak some of his skill.

People, be it of any alignment or faction that oppose other groups, will surely be inclined to 'hunt' those that they actually have a chance defeating. My 1st level mage won't prefer duelling a mage that he's seen casting 5th level spells, I think that's pretty much obvious.

Now, except that, shouldn't the player have contacted DMs if he thinks he is receiving grief? It is against the rules after all and DMs would take care of it.

Finally, there is a large number of -characters- in this module especially on the good side that -will- hunt those they perceive as evil and I don't see anything wrong about it as long as they RP consistently.

All the above are my own thoughts on a subject, because I've happened to have seen it in the past too, and not just from one side.

[urghargh]

The Elvewyn issue should have been dealt with privately in a PM as you are asking for OOC clarifcation of in-game and guild issues on a public forum.

I will PM you, Grozer, about this.

[Grozer]

kasin said:

some of the reasons you listed do sound pretty weak. The only one I would comment on is the point on pc's who seem buddy, buddy with evil pc's. Yes, I think many would agree that this happens often. However, it has to be asked, does the pc know IC that who they're dealing with is evil?( Several evil pc's have managed to do a pretty good job of concealing their true motives.) If they do, then yes, it's poor form unless they have a specific reason for travelling/ adventuring with that PC, and the differences are RP'd along the way.

Conversation with known evils I think would be dependant on the circumstance. You can hate them, but it doesn't mean you have to be rude unless that's the way you're PC would handle it.
See above for non RP reasoning and buddy, buddy behavior.

OK I was simplify things for ease of explanation, I am clearly referring to KNOWN situations. I do recognize when you DONT know IC you cant make that judgement.

[DM Richard (Retired)]

But here's the thing, I dont get how that is something he is to be hunted for. I play some alts, some obvious others not and I have seen some of the grief this player is receiving.... IC reasons I've heard:

1. "You hang around bad people."
2. "Because you're evil"
3. "You shouldnt have turned evil."

In my opinion this type of reasoning is as bogus as using "I am evil" as an excuse to kill someone.

There is a huge difference between "You murdered 50 children in an orphanage last night" and "You are EVIL".

One is a statement of an action where something was done by a person that is immoral and illegal. The other is an opinionated statement used to justify an action based on an unfounded perception you have.

That doesn't mean you are wrong in your perception, but where do people get the idea that it is OK to do anything about "evil" people? "Evil" people are protected by the law the same as "good" people.

If you break the law to kill an "evil" person you commit a Chaotic act. Why do those around you not consider you "evil" now as well? You just broke the law and you murdered someone?

How does one decide what is evil? Each person has different values for what is "evil". For some people when they say "evil" they mean immoral acts other people mean illegal acts and others mean acts that they personally don't agree with.

Killing someone because they are "evil" is an action that is unlawful. It may even be considered as an "evil" act itself by some people.

The game designates when you are of evil alignment but that has nothing to do with being determined "evil" by characters. Yet how many people that are "good" get hunted by "good" characters for being "evil"?

Don't tell me that nobody knows of any "good" characters that have done immoral or illegal acts.

[Grozer]

urghargh said:

The Elvewyn issue should have been dealt with privately in a PM as you are asking for OOC clarifcation of in-game and guild issues on a public forum.

I will PM you, Grozer, about this.

Actually to be honest my question is broader than Elve, this is just latest example which pushed me to the point of asking the question to my fellow players of something I clearly dont get. I didnt reveal anything that is not already known in game here so I brought in him as the example.

For Elve's situation if in fact it is some DM plot or guild thing I am not here to question that. Personally I would merely think someone on the DM team should advise the player OOC to know, "hey we know you are being hunted and are watching" I dont know... maybe its me... because from the players perspective it just seems pretty senseless and can feel quite frustrating.

[Grozer]

richard said:

But here's the thing, I dont get how that is something he is to be hunted for. I play some alts, some obvious others not and I have seen some of the grief this player is receiving.... IC reasons I've heard:

1. "You hang around bad people."
2. "Because you're evil"
3. "You shouldnt have turned evil."

In my opinion this type of reasoning is as bogus as using 'I am evil'; as an excuse to kill someone.

Yes Rich that is exactly what I was alluding to, I guess you said it more simply.

[ShadowCatJen]

I suppose I would add my own additional question to this. That being if the PC is continuously hunted and killed, what is going to be the eventual RP result of it all? Correction, what is the expected outcome of such an act?

If the only action that is taken against the "evil" PC is to be killed on sight with no questions, then the only result is going to be OOC frustration on the evil players part. Being that resurrecting and coming back to life is a higher option in this game, death doesn't have the impact it should RP wise.

The killing run would have to end sometime with some end result, otherwise the PvP situations are very much pointless. And the end result can't be the player going perma-death especially if it's not that player's choice. Nor can the end result be the player being forced to change their character and play them in a way they didn't want to just to avoid having PvP forced down their throat.

Compromise needs to happen, not constant PvP, in order for all sides to have fun again. Remember, it's not anyone elses right, but the players, to decide what is more fun for them.

[EDM Entori]

In the case listed, I've avoided any PVP nightmare that this is turning into. But perhaps I can offer some ...indulgences as I doubt it will be clarification...


When PVP happens its short quick, and there is little dialgue other then "you are evil" for specific examples that were given, and I do not like naming names its undiplomatic, there is much more behind in, and as kasin said in some cases its unknown.

Personal it all boils down to how you want to RP it, and rannan, tori, edward. Well Tori for that matter, I've never seen her do anything evil IC. Despite the odd snark comment. (or what my character remembers).. As For edward/rannan. Well lets just say.. Just cause you don't visually see the process doesn't mean plans are or are not in place.

For many reasons it would not make sense to kill them where they are seen most, in a city well is just plain stupid.. and well there are many who would, and it is my understanding to someone who wants to play CG, all they need is a right reason, by that I do not mean choose to stay CG through means of quests etc, but play a character that would result in Cg (to avoid that debate)..

AS for elevwyn specificly, there are many chess pieces at work.. as I'm sure Rannan has the stark trek 3D chess peices at work..lol..

I've not seen recent activities towards the character. But anyone killing a PC repeatedly, with out -very- good IC reason, I would see as griefing, and I'll support anyone on that call.

As for those who are looking to hunt evil pc's under the means that grozer listed..

think about what your doing, think about your character. I've no problem with PVP or Rping character conflicts, but do so inside the rules.

I've recently been party to a lot of conversations regarding the topics of certain evil pc's and without given things IG away, ..things change, and good pc's will try to change things for the common good, in their own way, for some all they need is a reason to pick up blade, where ever, for others.. well the law is their way.

I agree with Grozer in saying people should think more, but then again if someone sees something they don't understand, ask questions oocly, for that clairification..

again for the specific example refer to kasins post, but thats my two cents..


Merry christmas/ yule

Entori

[Kolfrosta]

But here's the thing, I dont get how that is something he is to be hunted for. I play some alts, some obvious others not and I have seen some of the grief this player is receiving.... IC reasons I've heard:

1. "You hang around bad people."
2. "Because you're evil"
3. "You shouldnt have turned evil."

Almost NOTHING more substantial than that... so it begs the question why are you NOT hunting Ranan, Edward, Tori or a host of other known evil PCs? To take it one step further, some that made these comments, I have seen buddy buddy with other known evil types... I dont get it? Again this is not about pointing out names I just want to understand HOW this time its different?

To the first reason, why didn't you hunt other players that hang around evil types, heck I have seen Sharita talking with Tori and Phelzaron (No offense to either one of you three just using this as an example, this is only one but I am sure you can all think of a few others)?

An excellent question. I don't know the RP behind the reasons for Elve being hunted (and don't post it here, I'd rather let my characters find out in game) but if the above stated are the only reasons, then, yes.....it does sound a bit weak. Especially if the "evil PC" is simply standing around doing nothing.

As DM Rich said, there are illegal acts and immoral acts, for sake of simplicity, chaotic and evil acts respectively. If someone doesn't actually *see* an evil act committed then they truly have no RP reasoning to go and find said "evil" person and hunt them down to kill them, (an action which in itself can be considered both chaotic and evil).

As to the "you hang with evil people", this doesn't neccessarily define the person as evil. Most characters in game are aware of Harpers, and other sneaky types that try to infiltrate the bad guys group to get the dirt on them. Given that, how can you base that a person is evil just by association? Would it be suspicious? Yes, but without the evidence of actual witnessed wrong doing, it can only be suspicion.

Which goes to my next comment. Certainly Phelzaron *looks* evil, and Torian may have made comments that would raise a paladin's suspicion, but without having actually witnessed any unlawful or evil/immoral acts, there is no basis for determining either Phezaron or Torian (or even Ranan and Edward) as being evil. The paladin in question can certainly be suspicious based on rumor, but rumor is not evidence or proof. They could very well be falsehoods, and for a lawful character to act only on rumor, would be a bit chaotic as well.

Given this bit about rumor....if enough rumors are presented, and each one very closely repeats from different sources which are relatively unaligned (i.e. some group didn't get together, invent the story to make one person look bad, then all take said fabricated story to the one person they think can take care of the matter), then and only then would I say the PC going and doing the "hunting" would have justifiable cause....(But murder in town is still unlawful, justified or not).

Sometimes I think, the "go kill the evil guy" is the "easy out". Certainly the PvP is only a matter of toggling someone hostile then battle ensues. Simple enough. Taking the above example with Elvewyn, who is apparently newly converted, I have to wonder why reconversion was not attempted. For an elf to slay an elf, is a heinous crime in the world of the Seldarine, and far better to attempt to redeem a fellow elf, than just kill them, and deny them forever (if death meant anything) the reward of Arvandor. But that is one example.

Why doesn't Sharita hunt Ranan or Edward? Well, for one, murder is unlawful in town, any town, including Redmist..., two, she never sees them outside of any town. (Smart move on their part). However, while she can't just visit "righteous divine justice" on either one while they stand in the middle of Isinhold, this doesn't mean she cannot drag them by the ear to the outside of town for a "righteous sermon" concerning the evils and immoral acts which they have been accused of on numerous occassions. Also, while they are conveniently located in town, this does not mean she cannot "sermonize" (this time with words) on the evils of thier ways (For example: "No, torture is not justice. It is a cruel punishment you inflict on others merely for your own pleasure. There is no honor in inflicting pain on anyone, more especially those weaker than yourself. It only shows you are so unsure of your own power, that you must beat down those weaker than yourself to attempt to gain some small measure of self worth in your own mind."). I think it would be very cool to see more attempts at conversions (on both sides) than just the usual uninspired "let's go hunt (insert name)".

But that's just my two cents, and I think I digressed, but to summarize, hunting down the bad guys "just because they are evil", is about RP worthy as "the bad guys hunt down others because they are bad guys"....ermm..yeah..what DM Richard said.

[Myth]

My own opinion is that within the rules (and the rules clearly state together with the DMs what is griefing and what isn't) we shouldn't decide for others what is bad rp by such an example.

A stupid good man that was raised in a background where "Kill the evils" is acceptable can go and just kill whoever he sees as evil. And that would be perfect RolePlay of his character...

Just my two cents again...

[ShadowCatJen]

jimkaf said:

A stupid good man that was raised in a background where "Kill the evils" is acceptable can go and just kill whoever he sees as evil. And that would be perfect RolePlay of his character...

But when you take this statement and change all the words from "evil" to "good" and vice verse where it reads:

A stupid evil man that was raised in a background where "Kill the goods" is acceptable can go just kill whoever he sees as good.

Then it's usually translated as being "bad" roleplay.

If the player of an evil PC kills someone and says "I killed him because I'm evil", it isn't accepted as a good RP excuse. If the player of a good PC kills someone and says "I killed him because he's evil" then it, too, shouldn't be accepted as a good RP excuse. However, from some arguments I'm hearing it's being accepted as an alright thing to do. It's a nasty double standard that people need to be aware of.

[Myth]

shadowcatjen said:

But when you take this statement and change all the words from "evil" to "good" and vice verse where it reads:

A stupid evil man that was raised in a background where "Kill the goods" is acceptable can go just kill whoever he sees as good.

Then it's usually translated as being "bad" roleplay.

If the player of an evil PC kills someone and says "I killed him because I'm evil", it isn't accepted as a good RP excuse. If the player of a good PC kills someone and says "I killed him because he's evil" then it, too, shouldn't be accepted as a good RP excuse. However, from some arguments I'm hearing it's being accepted as an alright thing to do. It's a nasty double standard that people need to be aware of.

... Well since I'm the one who's using the argument I can assure you that I meant and mean it vice versa as well..

Edit: The "Because I'm/he's evil/good" is not acceptable if that's the only reason... That's why I used some more justified example.

[EDM Entori]

yeah I like what kol/rich said, however jimkaff has a point with the 8 int orc barbarians killings/gudz/evilz.... theres been characters like that around.. Rp wise, who have never got in an actual IC pvp match about it..

As for the elf thing, well..*Coughs*... can we refrain from draggin IG stuff out.. thanks, as for the actions of those IG well.. all I can say is that those involved acted according to their characters..

*end rant*

[Masterbard Alyster Darkharp]

I think there are many so called 'good characters' on FRC who should be watched a little more carefully, and forced to walk a little finer line or be subject to alignment shifts. I am not going to name names, or point fingers at anyone in particular, but I'll give a parting quote by a great philosopher to drive this point home.

"He who fights with monsters might take care lest he thereby become a monster".

-Friedrich Nietzsche

[Grozer]

entori said:

As for the elf thing, well..*Coughs*... can we refrain from draggin IG stuff out.. thanks, as for the actions of those IG well.. all I can say is that those involved acted according to their characters..

Just to be clear, I never once mentioned WHO was hunting Elve just that I didnt agree with what I saw so I didnt bring up what isnt already known server wide. When people birng it up in the middle of Isinhold its a known thing.. so we arent dragging anything new up.

As to your second point, no offense but you do realize that could be said for ANY RP, even RP that conflicts with FRC rules right? I mean, Ranan could walk into Isinhold and level a group of low level newbs because he feels like it... or because he hates goodies.. that would be IC for him since they werent wont kneel down to Bane, but would that be acceptable? I dont believe so... sorry simply falling back on, acting according to my character is not enough in my opinion.

Of course I have no authority here, I am merely speaking up since well... I am overly opinionated and am willing to speak up for other players. Then again I could be way off base here.

For the record, the players I 'witnessed' chatising Elvewyn werent even elves.

I guess I need to clarify one thing... my questions are NOT about the fact that people are actually hating an evil character... not even about them hunting one, though I believe their should be substantial RP reason for not just that someone is evil.... BUT what I am quesioning is the consistency. If this is a reason to hate Elve then I guess I shouldnt see these same characters traveling with and enjoying the company of other similar folk.

[EDM Entori]

I do remember rannan threatening and acting on something similar when I first arrived, here our first encounter at that.. just outside isinhold.

But it was RP.

I agree about your conistency, to some extent, but I also thing that it depends on the character, and the specifics, this is all too vague.

I apologize if I was too general in my earlier post, and I think I will give up here.

and I wasn't refering to what you had posted in that line grozer..

Don

[arcadiadragon]

My two cents....

It sounds like Elve is being punished...not deliberately or even I hope not conciously...for changing his alignment for wanting to play with people that feed his "muse" for wanting to play this game...I recall sorta being left out of a few things cause Chrys was a friend of Ailren and Shivata....she was told a few times that they weren't good people ... Chrys's reply was "well perhaps not to you but they are good to me and Myn". Hell I recall being warned off of Darkharp IC and OOC...because he took money from the city of Redmist for the attempt of building Chapter Azure...this is what has kept me from playing this whole time...

I would like to remind people that sometimes that you can really hurt the feelings of the people that you play with when you force them into RP'ing a certain way or not letting them change themselves in order to have fun.

[ancientempathy]

Just a friendly reminder to everyone too;

The --less-- IC information being passed around OOCly, the better. Of course, -no- IC information should be passed at all, period, OOCly. If its about your own character, then by all means; do what you like, but even then I highly suggest you keep any information -very- simple.

This pertains greatly to RP. How? Well, knowing something too much OOCly about something ICly can frankily...ruin future RP.

[Helgrin Granitesoul]

Bravo Grozer.. I am really glad you brought this up so it can be discussed..

I would have to agree with you whole heartedly.. When I played Helgrin.. I hardly ever got into PVP.. why.. It just didnt make sense..

I had alot more fun throwing insults back and forth with Ranan then I ever did fighting him (well.. that ambush on the caravan was a blast.. but we won so *grin*).. Buying dwarven women.. I still remember that conversation.. it was great. I would rather have a good rp session then a PVP ANYTIME!!!

I had Lorkus cold through valid RP way before our fight at the inn when he was pretending to be that goof ball.. Did I act the other times.. no. Why.. cause there hadnt been hardly any RP to justify anything really. and what good would it have done.. not like the fight would really have been a challenge, or fostered any RP. So i let him go a few times until he had irked Helgrin so much I had to act.. and even then, I just wanted to have a nice tavern brawl with fists. All i wanted was to prove helgrin was right (since no one EVER listens to the dwarf.. just hides behind them in a fight *snort*). And i had given Lorkus ample warnings before that stating flat out I knew who he was before I acted.. Why.. because I wanted to give him an out if he wanted it.

Helgrin has wanted to Kill Ailren FOREVER.. what would it prove though.. nothing.. So I insult him.. he ignores helgrin.. I threaten him.. he ignores helgrin.. maybe I should just kill ailren.. *thinks*

The orcs in the bramble.. I had a low level one try to tell helgrin to stay on the path... Could I have absolutly destroyed him.. yeah.. would it have been totally in character considering at the time how much Helgrin wanted all them buggers dead and heads on pikes.. yeah.. but in the end.. what would it have done.. nothing. So I sent him on his merry way with a message to Kah.

Did I go after a evil dwarf that I found out was summoning undead. No.. but you can bet I tracked him down.. stuck my beard in his face and told him he best change his ways.. But i had no intention of killing him right there.. I wanted to see him change.. not dead. This was the same dwarf everyone else wanted to turn over to the zhents.. was he evil.. yeah.. Even helgrin knew something was up with him.. But I be damned before I turn over a brudda or give up on him and hunt him.

In the end.. think about what your actions are going to do to the fun another is having. Just because they are evil.. doesnt necessarily mean good has the right to blow there RP and fun. Go different routes then PVP unless it is absolutly necessary. PVP should be the last options.. It doesnt get treated that way though becuase of the ability to respawn..

It really is kind of funny.. when I was playing.. it seemed the good guys started more PVP then the evil guys did by far.

[ancientempathy]

helgrin said:

In the end.. think about what your actions are going to do to the fun another is having. Just because they are evil.. doesnt necessarily mean good has the right to blow there RP and fun. Go different routes then PVP unless it is absolutly necessary. PVP should be the last options.. It doesnt get treated that way though becuase of the ability to respawn..

A very well said statement Helgrin. It's why I havent made my paladin do anything towards the evil people (yet). But to do something other than PvP: I find this more rewarding!

[DM Hawk]

helgrin said:

It really is kind of funny.. when I was playing.. it seemed the good guys started more PVP then the evil guys did by far.

As a player of a good aligned character I can say that this has not been my experience, even while playing a Purple Dragon for a long time.

Most (but not all) of the PVP I've had or observed has been a result of opposing faction characters confronting my character in a way that really didn't leave another choice.

The most intense period of pvp I've seen resulted from a well known character leaving a good aligned faction and going to play for the other team. The evil faction instigated a heavy dose of PVP for a couple of weeks (as did the good factions, but I think to a lesser extent). That time had more pvp than I've seen before or since. From my view it had gone to cheese.

Again, this is my personal experience and my shared experience involving the characters my own has spent the most time with.

Too much pvp of any sort becomes cheesy and meaningless.

At the same time it is a part of this server and has a place in a persistent world where opposing factions exist.

"All things in moderation" comes to mind.

[dmimmersion]

ancientempathy said:

Just a friendly reminder to everyone too;

The --less-- IC information being passed around OOCly, the better. Of course, -no- IC information should be passed at all, period, OOCly. If its about your own character, then by all means; do what you like, but even then I highly suggest you keep any information -very- simple.

This pertains greatly to RP. How? Well, knowing something too much OOCly about something ICly can frankily...ruin future RP.

Take the above statement to heart. Absolutly NO IC information concerning another character should be shared under any circumstances unless it is in game. Not on the boards, not on the game spy chat, and not in tells.

If you want to write about your character, that is fine. That is what the Adventure Registry on this forum is for. As a player, I very rarely read those and even rarer used them myself because I didnt want people to metagame anything off of them.

Sharing information about in game events in a OCC manner is just asking for problems. So please.. dont do it.

[brian333]

I agree with the community consensus here, that RP is better than PvP when player characters are in opposition. I also agree that when players do consent to PvP there should be valid RP reasons and, in my opinion, combat should be a mutually agreed upon thing.

I do have to take the other side of this issue, though, in that there are players who are openly evil by both word and deed. These fellows feel that the griefing rules protect them from the consequences of their own actions! If you are known to be a doer of heinous and/or criminal acts, why do you feel an OOC rule should protect your character from retribution?

There is a fine line indeed between griefing and roleplaying an outraged paladin confronting evil. In my mind it's drawn between attacking the known evildoer and repeatedly attacking the known evildoer.

The easiest test is to confront the PC in question with a moral situation in which he is obviously outclassed by his foe. Does he react in the way his character has previously been portrayed?

A specific example: Kasur was hunting ettins at around level 6 when a well known character came by with a prisoner in tow. Kasur confronted the captor, (I knew him to be an epic character, and a good guy as well, but my character had no such knowledge.) I did it because it was in character to do so, and I knew ooc that if things went wrong I'd have to respawn. In fact, I as a player had resigned myself to that before the conversation even began, because I anticipated that my actions would anger the PC I was confronting.

Please use some consideration, both as evil PC's and as good PC's when conflict arises. Evil PC's should not hide behind griefing rules to protect them from the IC consequences of their own actions, and good PC's should remember that killing in any fashion, other than as a last resort, puts them on the path to becomming evil themselves.

[catmage]

I just want to say that there's no law against being evil. One can do immoral acts while remaining within the boundaries of the law. Ailren will admit that he's an evil person, because I stick to the belief that good and evil in the universe are objective and measurable(That's why protection from evil works, and why there can be fiends and celestials), and Ailren will not lie unless it's the only option available to him. He has admited to being evil in Cormyr, in Isinhold, and Redmist, but he's never commited a crime, according to the law, since he managed to get out of the charges one way or another. Now, a lot of people know Ailren's done bad, but since they can't prove it legally, they can't touch him without commiting a chaotic, or possibly evil act, depending on the exact motivation. An good character can't go out and kill evil characters because they're "evil" without losing their good alignment. "Killing" them to turn them into justice, or because they're in the middle of an evil act, is an exception, but if Ranan's outside a city, admiring the flowers on a sunny afternoon, and a good aligned fellow charges in without warning and manages to kill him and leave him for dead, they've commited a bad deed.

To get back on the topic at hand, all I can say is that if the person in question in this case feels they are being griefed or is worried that they are going to be griefed, then it doesn't matter if it's in the name of "RP", it should stop. From what I've seen and overheard, IC and OOC, I'm inclined to think it's gotten out of hand, but since I'm not Elve's player, I can't speak for him.

[irene]

brian333 said:

I agree with the community consensus here, that RP is better than PvP when player characters are in opposition. I also agree that when players do consent to PvP there should be valid RP reasons and, in my opinion, combat should be a mutually agreed upon thing.

I do have to take the other side of this issue, though, in that there are players who are openly evil by both word and deed. These fellows feel that the griefing rules protect them from the consequences of their own actions! If you are known to be a doer of heinous and/or criminal acts, why do you feel an OOC rule should protect your character from retribution?

There is a fine line indeed between griefing and roleplaying an outraged paladin confronting evil. In my mind it's drawn between attacking the known evildoer and repeatedly attacking the known evildoer.

That was a very clear statement Brian, and one I wholeheartedly agree with.

I don't know the exact situation about Elvewyn, but Reina have seen him as one of Edwards ilk for a long time, for reasons of her own.

And that takes me to my point of view. When I made Reina, I expected that she would eventually end up evil. While that may still happen, it's not going that way, because it seems that every evil character, or the majority at them, is set on annoying her and worse, to a degree where she despises the majority of them.

Their blatant actions, abduction, torture, murder and mutilation leads to the frustration of not evil characters, especially as these actions seems to be the goal, rather than a means to achieve something. What to do? The "law" is non-existing. Known criminals freely wander about Suzail and nothing happens. People whom are prevented from committing a crime, gets a few days in prison and a slap on the wrist. Later their intended victim turns up in a mutilated state.

If you kill them, it has no consequence, they'll be back before you can enjoy it. If you torture them, you are as evil as they are. You cant have them imprisoned. In fact, there's no real way for the non-evil characters to get back at the baddies. It is extremely frustrating.

If you want to play a known torturer, abductor and murderer, you should be ready to be jumped and killed where ever you are. And you should not run around freely in the capital of the nation where you are wanted. After Reina's experience with the baddies she don't go to Redmist either. Playing someone known to be a murderer, torturer, and what have we should come with a price-tag.

To sum up, I'll quote another player whom played on the same server as I did before FRC: I miss the pyres of Vallakia! Meaning: The ability to get rid of an evil, twisted and/or insane PC for good!

[Thrym]

What Irene wrote pretty much sums up my own opinion. The current situation is simply ridiculous - there is currently no way to punish an evil character IC without doing something evil yourself. They torture away happily, permanently damaging PCs emotionally, and all one can do as a good char is killing them, which is completely pointless as they'll just respawn and go on like before anyways, or hand them over to the law where they'll get ... two days? Seriously?

This by no means means that I support grieving evil PCs - I avoid PvP myself, Zae has been part of... four PvP fights since I made him two years ago. But I can understand why some good characters might simply be frustrated, which might lead to them not acting correct. I used to hear playing evil was hard - but honestly, nowadays that isn't the impression I get at all.

I think we would have a LOT less of pointless PvP though if there was any way to actually punish evil PCs for good aligned chars. As it is now, most good players I talked to are simply frustrated and to but it bluntly, quite pissed about the current situation.

[Aodhan the Unusual]

I agree with what people have said. RP before PvP. Just because it's different than you doesn't mean you shouldn't try to RP before engaging it. I know this sounds kinda ironic coming from someone that plays the shortest tempered hin in the lands, but it's true. And I realize there are some situations that just suck for the poor person it happens on and the RP involved in that happened way before the instance of Bob meeting Joe in the street. But please remember to have courtesy for the other person playing.

By logging in to FRC, you already accept that there is a chance to be involved in PvP. This does NOT mean however, that just because someone is of the opposite alignment/faction than your own, you can just randomly engage them. Try something different. I know in my own case, my characters usually try to talk their way out of a situation. Most times it works (whether it makes the other person see the light, confuses the heck out of them, or what I have no clue, but...), though there have been occasions that it's just dug a deeper hole. However, in each PvP case, an out has ALWAYS been given. Yes, even to those that have insulted Torian. She may not say, "Walk away now or die!" but usually when a person asks, "What did you call me?" the smart thing to do is not repeat what was just said.

Basically this early morning ramble boils down to Rule #1 of FRC: Have fun, but not at another player's expense.

[Myth]

Just want to add something. There are cases where there might be zero to nil -VISIBLE- roleplay before a PvP (believe me there might be a whole ton of it that the victim might not ever notice) but a lot of RP -after- the PvP.

And yes, as Misha mentioned Torian might try to talk and find a solution prior to everything... Would a paid assassin do that? There are ways to add to the atmosphere and experience before the PvP when it's going to happen but sometimes you really -don't- and strive to not get noticed in order to achieve the target, a capture, a killing, something like that.

In those cases to me what matters is the RP that takes place afterwise... and hey... I've 'lost' in a whole lot of PvPs (not necessarily on this server) and through most of those 'defeats' my character and experience was quite enhanced. Hence I urge people prior to PvP to give a second thought to what they'll do afterwise should they 'win' but also those 'hunted' to consider that it might be a good chance to get some quality RP.

Last comment is, we should also all remember that 'evil' guys aren't and haven't been the only ones hunted on this server, let's not make it overly dramatic.