Channeling the Divine - how's it work?

[abby]

I have often given thought to clerical spells. It always seems strange to me how even the most devout cleric may have access to only a few spells even if she has lived a life of service and exemplified her gods will and goals simply because she is "low level" This leads me to believe that the amount of spells a cleric can cast per day has nothing to do with her level of faith and devotion or the favor her god shows her.

To illustrait this, lets say a 10th level Paladin hangs up his sword after a lifetime of service and duty to his god. Always has this paladin been held in the greatest favor of his diety. He has been faithful in dutiful, courageous and self sacrificing. Now at the age of 50, the battle scarred veterin decides to hang up his armor and retire into the clergy and become a cleric. Oddly... even after a life time of showing good sense, compassion and the dicipline to handle and use great power responsibly... his god only grants him the use of a couple zero level spells and a first level spell or two???

That makes NO sense.

So... I RP a differant point of view on divine casting that explains this. It is neither supported nor refuted by source material, but it does make a very good deal of sense. When I RP Abby casting spells, she becomes exhausted after casting the majority of her spells. If she casts them all, she is usually so purly exhausted that she can barley function. Here is why... The channeling of Divine Power through the frailty of a mortal frame is taxing. Mortals were not built to handle divine power. The most devote and favored of a god may have access to the gods power, however, if he has not built up a resistance to channeling this power through his frame, it will consume him or kill him.

It is already accepted theory in source material, that as PCs go up in level and gain more HP they are essentially developing a resistance to magical energy... thats why healing spells do a little less good for a higher characters with more HP, and magical attack spells do a little less damage. This is because they are the subject of magical attack and healing so often... especially the melee classes (who have more HP and thus a higher resistance to magic having been built up from countless lightningbolts, magic missles and a ton of healing potions and spells to heal their countles wounds)... for a cleric it is the same.

Dispite being utterly devout and of the purist soul, Abby as a low level cleric only had a couple of spells to cast. Not because Ilmater didnt feel she was worthy to cast "more" healing magic because she lacked good-sense... but rather because it was all her small frame could handle back then without killing herself. Now she has built up quite a resistance to channeling positive energy and can channel a very large amount before it over-taxes her... including manifesting highly taxing powers such as "Heal" which would have destroyed her in her early days in the clergy.

Typically, when I have only a few spells left, I will RP Abby saying something like; "I.. I a-am very t-tired.. I d-doubt I will be able t-to c-channel a-anymore of Ilmater's g-gifts... perhaps o-one... maybe t-two." She will cast these last few spells as if they are "over-taxing" to her and show enormous strain and drain from channeling beyond her limits.

Munroe pointed out from a source book that most clerics often feel a comfortable sensation from spellcasting associated with their god, such as the feeling of Sunlight on her face when a cleric of Lathander casts spells. I agree of course that this is a part of it, however I still believe it should be taxing. As an example for those of you who lift weights, you know that heavy lifting creates a feeling of euphoria when you finish a set and stretch as your brain releases dopamines. It feels really good... but you are also drained and will eventually fatigue if you lift too much.

This system also explains how a cleric can switch gods... even going from good to evil and yet retain all spell casting ability they had before despite being unproven and new into the clergy. If a god is going to grant you clerical magic... then he is going to grant you clerical magic... how much you can use depends on how much resistance you have to channeling the energy through your flesh.

Thats my thoughts.

[DM Richard (Retired)]

There are a lot of things about DnD that make no sense.

Why do clerics have to choose their spells ahead of time when they pray? Why can't they ask for what they need when they cast the spell?

Why do you get the number of spells you do at each level?

Why isn't it a certain amount of spell levels each level or an amount of spell levels equal to the level you just attained?

Anyways back to your discussion...

To illustrait this, lets say a 10th level Paladin hangs up his sword after a lifetime of service and duty to his god. Always has this paladin been held in the greatest favor of his diety. He has been faithful in dutiful, courageous and self sacrificing. Now at the age of 50, the battle scarred veterin decides to hang up his armor and retire into the clergy and become a cleric. Oddly... even after a life time of showing good sense, compassion and the dicipline to handle and use great power responsibly... his god only grants him the use of a couple zero level spells and a first level spell or two???

That makes NO sense.

The paladin at 10th level (ignoring any modifiers for ability scores) only had 1 first level spell and 1 second level spell. When he gains that first level of cleric he now has (once again ignoring any modifiers for ability scores) an additional 1st level spell and a domain spell.

He hasn't lost the spells from being a paladin and he is actually gaining spells faster than before. So I really am not sure what doesn't make sense unless you are just talking about the Paladin class in general.

Dispite being utterly devout and of the purist soul, Abby as a low level cleric only had a couple of spells to cast. Not because Ilmater didnt feel she was worthy to cast "more" healing magic because she lacked good-sense... but rather because it was all her small frame could handle back then without killing herself. Now she has built up quite a resistance to channeling positive energy and can channel a very large amount before it over-taxes her... including manifesting highly taxing powers such as "Heal" which would have destroyed her in her early days in the clergy.

So how does this theory explain characters with larger frames (higher Strength and/or Constitution, or hardier race) less able to cast spells as Wisdom is the determining factor not Constitution or Strength?

Other things to think about and maybe you have but just didn't explain it well in that paragraph. A first level character can expend their entire spell repertoire in a matter of a few minutes after that have obtained them yet they are not over-taxed for the remainder of the 24 hours.

Personally (and this is as non-cannon of a thought process as any other) I've always thought of the spell limitations being a flaw in the character. They could actually do more if they asked it of their god and truly believed. Due to man's nature they limit themselves and their god by not believing in they are worthy to do more. As they learn more about their god and spend more time in worship of him (gain experience) they feel more confident that he will let them do more. Although the god can deny you spells as well.

Interesting thoughts though.

[DM Grizwald]

abby said:

I have often given thought to clerical spells. It always seems strange to me how even the most devout cleric may have access to only a few spells even if she has lived a life of service and exemplified her gods will and goals simply because she is "low level" This leads me to believe that the amount of spells a cleric can cast per day has nothing to do with her level of faith and devotion or the favor her god shows her.

To illustrait this, lets say a 10th level Paladin hangs up his sword after a lifetime of service and duty to his god. Always has this paladin been held in the greatest favor of his diety. He has been faithful in dutiful, courageous and self sacrificing. Now at the age of 50, the battle scarred veterin decides to hang up his armor and retire into the clergy and become a cleric. Oddly... even after a life time of showing good sense, compassion and the dicipline to handle and use great power responsibly... his god only grants him the use of a couple zero level spells and a first level spell or two???

That makes NO sense.

So... I RP a differant point of view on divine casting that explains this. It is neither supported nor refuted by source material, but it does make a very good deal of sense. When I RP Abby casting spells, she becomes exhausted after casting the majority of her spells. If she casts them all, she is usually so purly exhausted that she can barley function. Here is why... The channeling of Divine Power through the frailty of a mortal frame is taxing. Mortals were not built to handle divine power. The most devote and favored of a god may have access to the gods power, however, if he has not built up a resistance to channeling this power through his frame, it will consume him or kill him.

It is already accepted theory in source material, that as PCs go up in level and gain more HP they are essentially developing a resistance to magical energy... thats why healing spells do a little less good for a higher characters with more HP, and magical attack spells do a little less damage. This is because they are the subject of magical attack and healing so often... especially the melee classes (who have more HP and thus a higher resistance to magic having been built up from countless lightningbolts, magic missles and a ton of healing potions and spells to heal their countles wounds)... for a cleric it is the same.

Dispite being utterly devout and of the purist soul, Abby as a low level cleric only had a couple of spells to cast. Not because Ilmater didnt feel she was worthy to cast "more" healing magic because she lacked good-sense... but rather because it was all her small frame could handle back then without killing herself. Now she has built up quite a resistance to channeling positive energy and can channel a very large amount before it over-taxes her... including manifesting highly taxing powers such as "Heal" which would have destroyed her in her early days in the clergy.

Typically, when I have only a few spells left, I will RP Abby saying something like; "I.. I a-am very t-tired.. I d-doubt I will be able t-to c-channel a-anymore of Ilmater's g-gifts... perhaps o-one... maybe t-two." She will cast these last few spells as if they are "over-taxing" to her and show enormous strain and drain from channeling beyond her limits.

Munroe pointed out from a source book that most clerics often feel a comfortable sensation from spellcasting associated with their god, such as the feeling of Sunlight on her face when a cleric of Lathander casts spells. I agree of course that this is a part of it, however I still believe it should be taxing. As an example for those of you who lift weights, you know that heavy lifting creates a feeling of euphoria when you finish a set and stretch as your brain releases dopamines. It feels really good... but you are also drained and will eventually fatigue if you lift too much.

This system also explains how a cleric can switch gods... even going from good to evil and yet retain all spell casting ability they had before despite being unproven and new into the clergy. If a god is going to grant you clerical magic... then he is going to grant you clerical magic... how much you can use depends on how much resistance you have to channeling the energy through your flesh.

Thats my thoughts.

Wicked view on this abby, I'll take it into consideration

[dracoamazing]

This was addressed in a limited fashion in the fiction series by R. A. Salvatore "The Cleric Quintet". I read the books awhile ago but I remember Cadderly mentioning his limited spells/blessings/prayers that he was granted and in one case used a spell much higher than his capabilities that nearly wiped him out physically.

Someone who has read the books more recently please chime in if there is something else that speaks more directly to this topic.

edit: Just searched the books for a bit and realized that Cadderly was a bit different as a priest:

"I do not pray for these spells," he argued. "I do not get out of bed in the morning with the notion that I should be able to create light this day, or that I will find need to turn my arms into a squirrel's paws. Nor do I pray to Deneir, at any time."

"You read the book," Pertelope reasoned, stealing Cadderly's building momentum. "That is your prayer. As far as selecting spells and memorizing their particular chants and inflections, you have no need. You hear the song, Cadderly. You are one of the chosen, one of the few."

[Munroe]

As I've already discussed with Abby privately, I don't believe the character's physical body has anything to do with their power to cast divine spells. I also don't feel that increased HP represents a direct resistance to magic of any kind either, that's what Spell Resistance is for. HP is an abstraction, and I prefer to keep it that way in my mind rather than trying to tie it down to other systems, especially ones that already exist.

My understanding has always been that the gods grant the Power and they grant it based on what they feel is best for the faith and the cleric. That means that even though a cleric might be the most devout Tyrian in the country, if they just started attracting Tyr's attention then he may only grant the cleric a little of his Power to see what s/he does with it. If the cleric proves to use the Power wisely and attract people to the service of Tyr then Tyr would see fit to grant the cleric more of his Power as the cleric proves himself/herself. The same thing can go for a paladin because regardless of the fact that a paladin and a cleric are both divine classes, they're both different classes with different "purposes." A good paladin uses his divine power to the job of Smiting Evil and fighting Injustice. While a cleric may fight evil and fight injustice, the cleric's job is to attract others to the worship of his or her god. Different job, different qualifications, different standard of usefulness.

There's no source support that a character becomes diminished by general spellcasting. Some spells have XP components, time components, and/or sacrifice components (usually ability damage, see BoVD and BoED) which do diminish the spellcaster, but those are exceptions, not the rule. My Lathander cleric, when she runs out of spells, she'll say something like "I've used all the spells I've been granted for the day" or something to that effect, or more simply "I'm out of spells" because I don't feel that there's any exhaustion effect tied to spells directly and she's only limited by what she has available. If Lathander decided to give her more spells, she would use them, but she sees that as Lathander's decision to make and she doesn't question his choice in that.

As for what I was talking about with sensations of divine spellcasting, it is in Magic of Faerun. (This book annoys me because it is a paperback with a $30 cover price but my friend got it in a lot off Ebay.) As for Magic of Faerun, here's some more from it:

Magic of Faerun (pg. 8)

The Power Magic that originates in the power of a deity, usually through prayer, is divine magic. The use of divine magic is called the Power. Clerics, druids, paladins, rangers, blackguards, and other practitioners of divine magic are taught this name of their magic by their mentors. Unlike masters of the Art, those who use the Power have no skill in using the Weave. Their spellcasting knowledge is planted directly in their minds by deities in response to their fervent prayers. To one using the Power, casting a spell is an exclamation of faith and is usually accompanied by a sensation appropriate to the patron of that spellcaster. For example, clerics of Lathander feel a warm heat upon their backs, rangers of Malar feel the hot blood of a fresh kill in their mouths, and paladins of Kelemvor hear the quiet crunch of bone under their boots. As with arcane spellcasting, these sensations do not alter the effects of the spells cast.

If Abby wants to say that her spellcasting makes her tired, that's for her to do. It is her roleplay. However, this conversation came into being because she said that in front of my cleric and my cleric said (paraphrased since I don't remember and didn't check my log) "Hmm... That doesn't happen to me. I guess things might work different between faiths. Lathander is god of vitality so maybe that's why he doesn't leave me tired after casting." Abby told me OOC that she disagreed and we discussed it. What it comes down to is that there's no rule on it and Abby is free to do it that way, but I'm also free to do it my way and will continue to do so. What I said IC was my way of handling the difference in our RP without saying "I'm right, you're wrong." There's enough room for us both to be right in the context of our RP. I disagree with Abby's interpretation but I'm not aware of a source that say either of us is explicitly wrong so I'll just leave it at at state of disagreement.

[Quadhund/Greenhouse]

"edit: Just searched the books for a bit and realized that Cadderly was a bit different as a priest:

"I do not pray for these spells," he argued. "I do not get out of bed in the morning with the notion that I should be able to create light this day, or that I will find need to turn my arms into a squirrel's paws. Nor do I pray to Deneir, at any time."

"You read the book," Pertelope reasoned, stealing Cadderly's building momentum. "That is your prayer. As far as selecting spells and memorizing their particular chants and inflections, you have no need. You hear the song, Cadderly. You are one of the chosen, one of the few.""
Favored soul?

[Grozer]

I follow Munroe's explanation that is assuming I understood it correctly. A cleric's ability is a granted from a deity and it would understandable that a God may choose what said follower be granted based on devotion and effectiveness. Using Ranan, it was always about proving himself in order to gain greater power from Bane. It makes sense to me, because I can never see Bane granting spells to those too weak to control his gifts or those too weak to effectively use them.

Additionally, this situation also explains how a cleric might fall out of graces with his/her God.

I still havent figured out how to RP 'selecting spells' which I agree with Rich just doesnt make sense. In looking at many of the deities, they all tend to pray once a day at very interesting times. How would a cleric really know what blessings he/she is going to need at the break of dawn or in the middle of night? Virtually impossible, unless you know exactly where you are going for the next 24 hours.

[abby]

Actually, when I am DMing PnP games, in my house rules, clerics do not need to prepare spells in advance. They say their daily prayers as is their duty to devotion, but they pray to their gods to grant them spells as they need them. It seems silly to ask for a bunch of stuff you dont know if you will need or not. But... as I said, that is House rules.

(note: Ive changed my mind about the Favored Soul class in 4th ed... which essentially works like above.)

The paladin at 10th level (ignoring any modifiers for ability scores) only had 1 first level spell and 1 second level spell. When he gains that first level of cleric he now has (once again ignoring any modifiers for ability scores) an additional 1st level spell and a domain spell.

He hasn't lost the spells from being a paladin and he is actually gaining spells faster than before. So I really am not sure what doesn't make sense unless you are just talking about the Paladin class in general.

Of course, its not a perfect system, but let me elaborate a bit:

The purpose of that example was to illustrait that gods do NOT grant spells based upon the level of faith or the dicipline and general "good sense" that their clerics possess, or else the Paladin would start into the clergy with access to strong clerical magic since his faith and good service has already been proven time and again and he is heavily favored by his god. It is irrelevant if before he was smiting good and after he is attacting worshipers... the fact remains, he is tried and true and his god knows him to be worthy.

Using my theory on this, when he enters the clergy, he has his gods graces, but still is unable to channel divine energy well because he has only channeled very small amounts of it and needs to build up his resistance. (He can only hope to channel his paladin spells and those clerical spells he has built up the strength to channel.)

As far as a persons frame or physcial hardiness (Constitution), I believe channeling divine power is more on par with a spiritual hardiness.. being wisdom based and all. Perhaps its more mentally draining then physically draining. The cleric takes the firehose of divine energy and funnels it through herself by force of Will alone... a process which is mentally exhausting. Channeling her daily limit leaves her mind aching and she finds concentration too difficult to attempt channeling more power until she has had a chance to rest. Once rested and her mind is fresh, she can pray that her god grant her the strength to use his blessings again.

In the case of a first level cleric... well, yes, if you cast your meager alotment of spells, I RP that the cleric is far to fatigued mentally to attempt channeling divine energy and probably cannot concentrait well. Granted, a 1st level cleric could blow thorugh his spells in only a short amount of time, but then again, you are taking the raw power of a god and cramming it through the mind of some poor mortal who has very little experiance working with such a potent force. Its not going to be easy.

Its important to note that in NWN, you can rest any time for spells so long as enough time has passed. Unlike PnP where you have to rest at certain times of the day (Something I dont enforce in PnP either).

Also, I am a huge romantic for self sacrifce in spell casting. Just like in the Dragon lance novels when Raisten would tell everyone that if he cast that last spell, it would likley kill him. I love the idea that in order to save everyone's life, a cleric may call down a powerful spell that will surley kill her in order that her friends or those she is protecting might live. In my PnP game, casting spells beyond your limit calls for Fort saves that do heavy Con damage and frequently result in death.

Concerning Ranan's points, its important to note that a God does not need to grant you spells. If you fall out of his favor, that god simply isnt going to grant you any magic.. no matter how conditioned you are to casting spells. Even if you are strong enough lift and fire an M-60, you cant fire it if no one gives you amo. In the case of a god like Bane, you will prove your strength by building your mental power so you can handle the greater powers at his command. If you try to overstep and cast powers beyond your ability, then you are a weak fool and his power will consume you.

I think the implied magic resiliance that allows you to take less damage from attack spells and less virtue from healing spells is differant than spell resistance which is more like a shield or aura which can actually cancel out magic all together as opposed to slowley developing an immunity to it. Much how damage resistance absorbs some of the damage whereas a deflection modfier to AC offers a better chance to deflect the attack all together.

The idea of magic resiliance is an optional way of looking at HP from source material, but not everyone is going to choose to use it, thats cool. But for me, it does make a lot of sense. Afterall, if tied and bound and helpless... magic missles may do 90% damage to a first level fighter but only 20% damage to a tenth level fighter, and although D&D doenst NEED to make logical sense, the very best illusions are always those that are believable, and that is why I like to put a solid foundation of logic in the way I RP rules.

Of course, this is just my personal RP guidelines and no one ever has to follow it... but... we know that.

[EDM Entori]

lol this is getting like a bunch of old wizards discussing the weave...

I think that while there is the mechanics of it that munroe relies on. Abby's character takes it and makes it realistic, beyond the game. So really its an endless debate on who is right and which book says what.

It was like when entori and phelzaron spent over two hours discussing magic and morality. its different viewpoint and very interesting to see.

edit: as for what grozer stated about how a cleric would know what he or she needed. well really just like a wizard its a guessing game really, and more common sense to what they think they may need for the coming/following day (depending on when you pray).

Just to further thought, maybe levels and spells per level, has to do with learning to use the tools the gods give them. A paladin is used to intereting his spells /blessings in a certain way. Now when he becomes one of the faithful(er) as a cleric.. He has to adapt and change a little bit, meanwhile as he changes hes taught how to use the tools his gods gives him. while that is a very basic comment. It seems logical to me. But like I said my character is a wizard, the weave makes much more sense to me.



ent

[ManyAsOne]

wolfmunroe said:

As I've already discussed with Abby privately, I don't believe the character's physical body has anything to do with their power to cast divine spells. I also don't feel that increased HP represents a direct resistance to magic of any kind either, that's what Spell Resistance is for. HP is an abstraction, and I prefer to keep it that way in my mind rather than trying to tie it down to other systems, especially ones that already exist.

My understanding has always been that the gods grant the Power and they grant it based on what they feel is best for the faith and the cleric. That means that even though a cleric might be the most devout Tyrian in the country, if they just started attracting Tyr's attention then he may only grant the cleric a little of his Power to see what s/he does with it. If the cleric proves to use the Power wisely and attract people to the service of Tyr then Tyr would see fit to grant the cleric more of his Power as the cleric proves himself/herself. The same thing can go for a paladin because regardless of the fact that a paladin and a cleric are both divine classes, they're both different classes with different "purposes." A good paladin uses his divine power to the job of Smiting Evil and fighting Injustice. While a cleric may fight evil and fight injustice, the cleric's job is to attract others to the worship of his or her god. Different job, different qualifications, different standard of usefulness.

There's no source support that a character becomes diminished by general spellcasting. Some spells have XP components, time components, and/or sacrifice components (usually ability damage, see BoVD and BoED) which do diminish the spellcaster, but those are exceptions, not the rule. My Lathander cleric, when she runs out of spells, she'll say something like "I've used all the spells I've been granted for the day" or something to that effect, or more simply "I'm out of spells" because I don't feel that there's any exhaustion effect tied to spells directly and she's only limited by what she has available. If Lathander decided to give her more spells, she would use them, but she sees that as Lathander's decision to make and she doesn't question his choice in that.

As for what I was talking about with sensations of divine spellcasting, it is in Magic of Faerun. (This book annoys me because it is a paperback with a $30 cover price but my friend got it in a lot off Ebay.) As for Magic of Faerun, here's some more from it:

Magic of Faerun (pg. 8)

The Power Magic that originates in the power of a deity, usually through prayer, is divine magic. The use of divine magic is called the Power. Clerics, druids, paladins, rangers, blackguards, and other practitioners of divine magic are taught this name of their magic by their mentors. Unlike masters of the Art, those who use the Power have no skill in using the Weave. Their spellcasting knowledge is planted directly in their minds by deities in response to their fervent prayers. To one using the Power, casting a spell is an exclamation of faith and is usually accompanied by a sensation appropriate to the patron of that spellcaster. For example, clerics of Lathander feel a warm heat upon their backs, rangers of Malar feel the hot blood of a fresh kill in their mouths, and paladins of Kelemvor hear the quiet crunch of bone under their boots. As with arcane spellcasting, these sensations do not alter the effects of the spells cast.

If Abby wants to say that her spellcasting makes her tired, that's for her to do. It is her roleplay. However, this conversation came into being because she said that in front of my cleric and my cleric said (paraphrased since I don't remember and didn't check my log) "Hmm... That doesn't happen to me. I guess things might work different between faiths. Lathander is god of vitality so maybe that's why he doesn't leave me tired after casting." Abby told me OOC that she disagreed and we discussed it. What it comes down to is that there's no rule on it and Abby is free to do it that way, but I'm also free to do it my way and will continue to do so. What I said IC was my way of handling the difference in our RP without saying "I'm right, you're wrong." There's enough room for us both to be right in the context of our RP. I disagree with Abby's interpretation but I'm not aware of a source that say either of us is explicitly wrong so I'll just leave it at at state of disagreement.

I agree with the above statements.

To illustrait this, lets say a 10th level Paladin hangs up his sword after a lifetime of service and duty to his god. Always has this paladin been held in the greatest favor of his diety. He has been faithful in dutiful, courageous and self sacrificing. Now at the age of 50, the battle scarred veterin decides to hang up his armor and retire into the clergy and become a cleric. Oddly... even after a life time of showing good sense, compassion and the dicipline to handle and use great power responsibly... his god only grants him the use of a couple zero level spells and a first level spell or two???

That makes NO sense.

And, as far as the paladin/cleric example goes... The paladin may have had years of dedicated service and had proven himself time and time again, but the fact remains he wasn't a cleric before and with the wide array of magic available, its more than understandable that the deity doesn't just hand them their highest-level spells and say "have fun". Its not like being devoted gets him off the hook. He must now prove his devotion as a cleric. Like a member of any real-life faith, they still have to display their devotion and always strive to prove themselves. Faith isn't something you can stockpile and keep for the future. Its constant and something you always have to prove.

I think, personally, that deity will not simply grant someone, even a proven follower of a another religious class, an immediate boost. Because he is starting out on a new path, he must start at the beginning and learn all of the lessons along the way. To just hand over vast amounts of power without the know-how or experience to wield them is likely not the best of scenarios. A cleric's roll in the world is different from a paladin's. A paladin is a holy warrior and his devotions lead him down a combatant's path. While a cleric -can- be (to an extent) a holy warrior, that is not the sole purpose of their calling. To take up the mantle of cleric, you have to learn all of the new responsibilities and earn the right to cast spells as a cleric, despite previous devotion.

Here's the best real-life example I can think of off of the top of my head. You're a manager at Circuit City (a large electronics retailer). You've gone through all of Circuit City's training (crappy videos made back in the 1970's). You've put in an application to manage over at Toys 'r' Us (a large toy retailer). While your duties are similar, chances are you're going to have to watch some new Toys 'r' Us training videos (more crappy videos) and go through all of the various aspects of the new job, despite the fact that you have experience in that field already. While you're still working in retail, you're taking on a new position and they won't let you forgo the craptastic video-fest.

[brian333]

Something clearly stated in AD&D's DM Guide but left out in the larger print of later editions was this:

AD&D DMG, pg. 38

...it is assumed that prior to becoming a first level cleric, the character received a course of instruction, served a novitiate, and has thoroughly read and committed to memory the teachings of and prayers to his or her chosen deity, so that the character is dedicated to this deity and is able to perform as a cleric thereof. It is this background which enables the cleric to perform first level spells.

Furthermore, continued service and activity on behalf of the player character's deity empower him or her to use second level spells as well, but thereafter another agency must be called upon.

Cleric spells of third, fourth, and fifth level are obtained through the aid of supernatural servants of the cleric's deity. That is, through meditation and prayer, the cleric's needs are understood and he proper spells are given to him or her by the minions of the deity.

Cleric spells of sixth and seventy level are granted by direct communication from the Deity itself...

This answers several questions posed:

Why does a dedicated healer in a healing hall gain spells far weaker than the adventuring priest? Dedication is only half the puzzle, activity is the other half.

How can a cleric channel such power through a mortal frame? He has guardian angels/devils both granting him the ability and monitoring his use of it both to insure the divine spelluser complies with the deity's will and to insure the power does not harm the spellcaster.

That chapter goes on to say how clerics who fail to follow their faith lose their spellcasting ability, or that even devout followers of a god can be refused spells for any or no reason, or even have spells granted they did not pray for instead of the ones they did pray for. Most of this is impractical to implement in NWN, but if a DM allowed rest during an event, he could plausibly demand a divine spellcaster take or avoid certain spells.

This also brings up another issue: who are those divine/infernal creatures clerics summon to tank for them? I submit that these beings are the intermediaries to whom the divine spellcaster submits his requests for spells.

It must be noted for those with no familiarity with AD&D rules: cleric spells topped out at level 7. These level 7 cleric spells were every bit as powerful as level 9 wizard spells, but the two classes had different spell acquisition charts. There were no level 0 spells of any class.

[abby]

Heh, well I admit, I have trouble understanding how the above mentioned paladin can join the clergy and his god says... "Well, dispite your past of flawless service, unwavrering devotion, and good sense, I think im only going to trust you one first level spell for now... and maybe a couple of 0 levels... until you can prove that your not going to go cast them in some brothel somewhere like a noob.... oh, and thanks for the devoted service as a paladin for all those years... but learning when and when not to kill with a sword is totally differant than learning when and when not to kill with a spell... so welcome to square 1.

As to the rituals and practices, the question is, does a cleric need to study spellbooks to get spells, or does the god simply grant them and they are there? more later.

If the spells you are granted are akin to climbing a church-based company ladder without being able to gain any benifit from other jobs you may have held in the church, then how come you can switch gods and still retain your full ability to cast the hignest level spells that you were able to while serving your previous god? Especially in the instance where you went from say... evil to good. If a paladin cant even get a boost dispite having the same code of values and having done some of the same duties in the church, how can an evil cleric who studdied dark rituals, communed with demons and used her magic to inflict pain on others get a boost?

For example... lets say a 10th cleric of Shar sees the light and converts to Ilmater (who forgives everyone who is truly repentant). Suddenly she is a good cleric able to cast 5th level spells granted by Ilmater. She didnt need to work her way through the heirarchy... she didnt need to prove herself. She simply converted, and is now able to do what all those poor lowley Ilmateri have had to serve for years in able to do. And THEY were never even evil!

answer: Her body has already worked up the resiliance to channel divine power, once Ilmater accepts her and sees in her heart that she is true, she becomes a vessel for his power and can heal as many people and do as much good as she has the strength of will to do.

Afterall, why would Ilmater... the god of mercy and compassion, refuse to grant his cleric enough heal spells to save the lives of all of the people present who need to be saved? If he didnt think she was responsible enough to use her cure magics wisely, he wouldnt have accepted her into the fold.

Conversely, why would Bane grant his priest only enough power to cause a little bit of destruction, when it would serve him better to implode the whole patrol of knights?

Most gods, mainly the evil ones are self serving. Wouldnt it substancially benifit them to grant mighty power to more of their followers? I think if they could, they would. However, it seems far more logical that a cleric's limitations fall to his own strength of Will... something that must be hardened to channel the divine power she has been intrusted with over years of practice. The healer heals all she can until she is drained and cannot heal any more... I can guarantee from all the source material about Ilmater, it has nothing to do with him deciding "enough is enough" and cutting the other wounded people off.

As for the divine rituals and duties of clerics in the church. its possible these could be considered ways to help a cleric excersize and perepare her mind for the channeling of divine power. Perhaps that "activity" strengthens will power by constantly forcing the devout to meditate and stick to her duty, inforcing faith and arming clerics with the teachings and doctrine of their clergy. As she practices her duties and meditation, and casts more and more spells, she is becoming more and more resiliant to divine power and better able to withstand the rigors of channeling more powerful gifts.

Another possiblity is that perhaps the church instruction is neccessary to teach a cleric how to properly shape dvine power into the needed spell, though I dont know if I like that since it implies that the god isnt granting the power specifically... though it could go a long way into RPing why a cleric has to prepare spells in advance. huh... thats a question.

[SlothfulCat]

As the paladin would reatain his paladinic powers granted by his god despite persuing acleric hood... no he is not starting from square one. Its simply a matter of "This is where you are paladin.. able to cast your X level paladin spells, now you wish to become one of the clergy... you are devout, but you still have your vows before the faith.. time to prove that you can blend both obligations... so while I'll still give you the paladin powers... you need to demonstrate your deeper understanding of the faith that makes you a cleric". Aka...

that level 10 paladin, still has his level 10 paladin spells, level 11, he's taking cleric.. and after all those years of service.. this choice will be rewarded if he can do so successfully. SO he's not becoming less powerful, but reaching for a new power, and so must earn/learn that new power like anyone else, particularly as he retains his former power.

[catmage]

I think that page ten of Faiths and Pantheons, the sidebar "Behind the Curtain: Deities and Divine spells" has an answer to why a deity doesn't just grant their followers the most powerful spells right off the bat, and why a paladin who joins the clergy has to start off at the bottom rung of cleric spells.

"The task of granting divine spells places very little demand on a deity. It is the training, skill, and dedication of the spellcaster that makes preparing and casting a divine spell possible, and this is why a deity needs levels in a divine spellcasting class to cast most divine spells"

So, even the most zealous, trust worthy noviate cleric has to go out and gain first hand training in the use of their cleric abilities and put them to use in the field. Spending one's time cloistered in a healing hall can't make them stronger, just like a wizard has to leave his ivory tower to experience the world and magic first hand to gain experience and new levels. It's not that the person is too weak to sustain the divine power, but that the deities can't instill high level powers on a cleric who hasn't trained for it because of the way divine magic works. If even a rank 18 greater deity with 49 levels, none of which are cleric, can't cast divine spells not from her domain spell list without cleric, paladin, druid, or ranger levels, then neither can a human cleric cast ninth level spells without their own training(Shar is the example, btw, and her stats are on page 49 of F&P). I won't say my opinion on how to handle divine caster RP, because I don't play divine casters often.

[brian333]

Bureaucratic Deva sitting in his cloister receives notice of a new applicant for devine power. The Deva checks the applicant's references and discovers the applicant has the correct alignment and devotion boxes checked, but upon study of his job-history the applicant is seen to be transferring from another industry. With his devine pen he marks the applicant as "Approved for Entry Level Position, advancement deferred pending performance review."

He moves on to the next applicant. This one has the correct alignment box checked, but has "devotion questionable, see reference 1A, (formerly associated with undesirable elements.)" However, upon reading the job-history he learns the applicant is making a lateral transfer from a competing corporation in the same field. This applicant is listed as "Approved for Probationary Position commensurate with requested salary, subject to unscheduled drug-testing and performance reviews."

Lateral movement from one clergy to another is possible, but should not be without consequences. This is something else more fully explained in the first edition and almost unmentioned in later versions. Perhaps it has been changed, but nobody sent me the memo!

AD&D DMG, pg. 39

A cleric who, at this or any juncture, changes deities is going to have a difficult time. His or her former deity will mark the cleric. The new deity, (and associated minions,) will be suspicious. Once a cleric changes deities, he or she must be absolutely true to the new calling, or he or she will be snuffed out by some godlike means.

It goes on to say that thrice-changed clerics would very likely be instantly snuffed unless some serious redemptive agency is involved.

So, while the possibility of deity change exists, such occurrances should be rare and handled carefully, as if the character's life was the penalty for abusive or frivolous behavior on the part of the devine spellcaster.

[Munroe]

brian333 said:

Bureaucratic Deva sitting in his cloister receives notice of a new applicant for devine power. The Deva checks the applicant's references and discovers the applicant has the correct alignment and devotion boxes checked, but upon study of his job-history the applicant is seen to be transferring from another industry. With his devine pen he marks the applicant as "Approved for Entry Level Position, advancement deferred pending performance review."

He moves on to the next applicant. This one has the correct alignment box checked, but has "devotion questionable, see reference 1A, (formerly associated with undesirable elements.)" However, upon reading the job-history he learns the applicant is making a lateral transfer from a competing corporation in the same field. This applicant is listed as "Approved for Probationary Position commensurate with requested salary, subject to unscheduled drug-testing and performance reviews."

Lateral movement from one clergy to another is possible, but should not be without consequences. This is something else more fully explained in the first edition and almost unmentioned in later versions. Perhaps it has been changed, but nobody sent me the memo!

AD&D DMG, pg. 39

A cleric who, at this or any juncture, changes deities is going to have a difficult time. His or her former deity will mark the cleric. The new deity, (and associated minions,) will be suspicious. Once a cleric changes deities, he or she must be absolutely true to the new calling, or he or she will be snuffed out by some godlike means.

It goes on to say that thrice-changed clerics would very likely be instantly snuffed unless some serious redemptive agency is involved.

So, while the possibility of deity change exists, such occurrances should be rare and handled carefully, as if the character's life was the penalty for abusive or frivolous behavior on the part of the devine spellcaster.

In 3.5e changing deities usually requires an Atonement spell since the cleric has previously considered to have been in violation of the responsibilities of a cleric of that deity. The atonement spell must be cast by another cleric and the atonement spell can be accompanied by a quest that must be completed for the Atonement to succeed. This quest is to test and prove the cleric's dedication to the new faith. I'm not sure but I would assume the cleric doesn't have divine spellcasting while doing this quest since the cleric needs to atone before gaining back spellcasting. (Unless they still haven't lost it from their previous god.)

I have not looked up Atonement before replying so I'm not 100% certain of the details on the spell but the point is that it isn't just as easy as saying "Oh, I'm going to switch gods" and retaining full divine spellcasting ability.

[abby]

"The task of granting divine spells places very little demand on a deity. It is the training, skill, and dedication of the spellcaster that makes preparing and casting a divine spell possible, and this is why a deity needs levels in a divine spellcasting class to cast most divine spells"

The page that Ailren provided from Faiths and Pantheons is fairly clear and I think answers the fundamental debate here. It isn't that a Diety -chooses- not to grant spells..... (i.e. Ilmater refusing to give his unproven cleric the power to cast one more healing spell to save some poor persons life... not going to happen)

Nor is it that young clerics must work to gain the trust of a Diety who already bloody well knows if the person is trustworthy or not...

Its quite simply that the mortal must prepare himself to be able to use and handle the power given to him.

You can pour all the divine power at a cleric you want, but its not going to make him able to cast more powerful spells than he can handle. Doesnt matter if he is proven by service in paladinhood or not... or even if he is the most zealous person in the world, it wont do a darned bit of good if he doesnt have:

"the training, skill, and dedication of the spellcaster"

neccesary to handle casting divine magic. i.e. mortals are not able to handle and cast divine spells without proper training.

So the only question that really remains here is... what -does- proper training mean? Well... a runner trains and builds skill by... running. A boxer trains and builds skill by... boxing. These people gain in endurance and ability so that they can run further, fight longer by doing. doing. doing!

You can call this training and skill whatever you like... learning ritual... proper prayer technique... but of all these, I happen to believe calling it building up mental resiliance to channeling divine power makes the most sense(though really a combination of ritual, prayer, and building resiliance is most accurate). Conditioning yourself to handle raw power.

THAT is why a paladin doesnt get more spells dispite already being proven.

THAT is why a Bane Worshiper can go from Bane to Ilmater and still cast powerful spells without going through heirarchy...(atonement and other RP parts aside. when passed... she is still the same level cleric as before.) She is like an olympic runner changing from one team to the other... whereas the paladin is like a couch potato training to be a marathon runner. He has to build up his endurance from the beggining (Proper technique, stretching, form... and most of all... endurance). His limited divine spell casting ability cant help him much when channeling all this new power... he already has faith and the proper mindset, he just needs to learn proper ritual, the right type or prayers, and... most of all, mental endurance.

A note: Despite saying above that you can call the "skill" whatever, It doesnt make sense that a clerics spellcasting ability has anything to do with her knowledge of ritual really because a cleric of Bane who converts to Ilmater would know little or nothing about Ilmateri rituals after she was accepted into the fold, and yet she would still retain her high level spell casting ability. That really narrows it down to only one thing. Conditioning gained from experiance at casting divine magic.
Proper ritual and prayer really are more likley to be aids in the cleric maintaning faith, moral, and having a knowledge of what sorts of things are available and how best to use them once he builds the strength of will to channel such power. The ritual, duty, and prayer are ways that clerics "mantain" their gods favor... not the source of their ability to use devine magic.

The point... deites dont activly choose how many spells to grant clercs... they only choose to grant them the power, or not (though they may penilize or cut off clerics for screwing up.) You're either in the fold, or you're out. So long as your remain in your gods favor, how many spells you get is dependent completely on your own personal ability which comes from training and skill.

[abby]

*bump*

This has come up a few times IG, so ill bump for players who might find it interesting and would like to integrate this philosophy into their divine casters.