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Post by wynter on Aug 8, 2007 21:09:35 GMT -5
lol ok i know ive asked this before but i still must be doing something wrong how the *beep* do you act lawful evil? im sooo far into chaotic now i dont think i'll ever be able to level up as a monk again i got alot of my chaotic points robbing graves but www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rt/20030409aam i not supposed to be a grave robber being a long death monk? any help would be appreciated i do try and make wynter act a little crazier then before since im chaotic now but would like to move back up to lawful
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Post by EDM Neo on Aug 8, 2007 22:11:51 GMT -5
Personally, I'm of the belief that grave robbing shouldn't give chaotic points... but that's a different conversation entirly.
As for lawful evil, I'm not entirly sure myself... but if nothing else, I loved the chat Wynter had with Celith the other day. Seemed to be a very LE thing, so far as I could tell at least.
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Post by SlothfulCat on Aug 8, 2007 22:30:19 GMT -5
For one... Alignment is an abstract. It reflects the sum of your choices. Your choices should not be made based on alignment as it is the result of them not the cause. So here I'll say that changing your RP for an alignment that you believe isnt suitable for your character is a bad call. Second, grave robbing in itself is a chatoic/evil act; however the way your link describes it make it sound very methodical and done in the name of organized research. So perhaps its not so much how youre doing it as why... also keep in mind scripted shifts dont take into account motivation, only action. As for how to play lawful evil.. well its pretty easy to pull off evil, it comes in a variety of packages so its the lawful youre really having trouble with by the sound of it so... from the Source material: "Lawful Good, “Crusader”: A lawful good character acts as a good person is expected or required to act. She combines a commitment to oppose evil with the discipline to fight relentlessly. She tells the truth, keeps her word, helps those in need, and speaks out against injustice. A lawful good character hates to see the guilty go unpunished. Lawful good is the best alignment you can be because it combines honor and compassion. Lawful Neutral, “Judge”: A lawful neutral character acts as law, tradition, or a personal code directs her. Order and organization are paramount to her. She may believe in personal order and live by a code or standard, or she may believe in order for all and favor a strong, organized government. Lawful neutral is the best alignment you can be because it means you are reliable and honorable without being a zealot. Lawful Evil, “Dominator”: A lawful evil villain methodically takes what he wants within the limits of his code of conduct without regard for whom it hurts. He cares about tradition, loyalty, and order but not about freedom, dignity, or life. He plays by the rules but without mercy or compassion. He is comfortable in a hierarchy and would like to rule, but is willing to serve. He condemns others not according to their actions but according to race, religion, homeland, or social rank. He is loath to break laws or promises. This reluctance comes partly from his nature and partly because he depends on order to protect himself from those who oppose him on moral grounds. Some lawful evil villains have particular taboos, such as not killing in cold blood (but having underlings do it) or not letting children come to harm (if it can be helped). They imagine that these compunctions put them above unprincipled villains. Some lawful evil people and creatures commit themselves to evil with a zeal like that of a crusader committed to good. Beyond being willing to hurt others for their own ends, they take pleasure in spreading evil as an end unto itself. They may also see doing evil as part of a duty to an evil deity or master. Lawful evil is sometimes called “diabolical,” because devils are the epitome of lawful evil. Lawful evil is the most dangerous alignment because it represents methodical, intentional, and frequently successful evil." I bolded what I felt where the important parts... but maybe this will answer your question some eh? Linkage: www.wizards.com/d20/files/v35/Description.rtf
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Panros
Old School
Sneak Attack - Reach out and touch someone.
Posts: 479
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Post by Panros on Aug 8, 2007 22:33:28 GMT -5
There are rules that are not meant to be broken else there is no system and there is chaos. However, these rules can be interpreted towards one's benefit. Selfishness, murder, partial-truths, gain in power and gold, affiliates, and enemies lay within this system. There are never friends, for that implies full trust, there are associates and there is only belief. Do whatever it takes for one to come on top as long as it lay within the system. If the system is not broken, then there is no legitimate reason for one to be a target of the authorities or guilds. An unfair fight is the only way to fight. A senseless fight is a waste of time. Evil for the sake of evil is pointless, there is only evil for the sake of gain of status. Never brake contracts, never go back on one's word. One who breaks either is liable to be put to death. Never lie, only say what is needed to be said in a way that it is still true. Never be anchored to anything but have things anchored to oneself. Everything is a pawn but oneself. Accept when you are bested for it was one's on failing. Follow now to lead another day. Be driven to achieve one's desires though do not let the desires drive oneself. - Beliefs and vales of Rhyllin (Lawful Evil)
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Post by Nevajas on Aug 8, 2007 22:50:05 GMT -5
I think some of the best examples I've ever seen of lawful evil embodied would either be the Operative of Parliament from the Serenity movie or the "Bad" character from The Good, the Bad and the Ugly. There's also a great example of chaotic evil vs. lawful evil in John Woo's Hard Boiled. Granted that none of them are fantasy movies, but I think you'll get good pointers just the same.
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Post by brian333 on Aug 9, 2007 4:18:17 GMT -5
My question is: "How does one get Lawful alignment shifts in Cormyr?"
In the example provided, the graverobbing is noted by the engine and Chaotic points are awarded, even though the player believes this is something required by the character's background. Having taken enough Chaotic points to bump her off Lawful, she can no longer level as a monk, which is the character's concept around which the graverobbing is based.
I too play a Lawful character, and I've taken several Chaotic hits because I've been partied with folks who's acts were either unknown or unstoppable by my character. In some cases I cannot protect my alignment from these actions by other players, and I have no means of restoring my alignment.
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Post by HeatherRae on Aug 9, 2007 7:24:47 GMT -5
My question is: "How does one get Lawful alignment shifts in Cormyr?" In the example provided, the graverobbing is noted by the engine and Chaotic points are awarded, even though the player believes this is something required by the character's background. Having taken enough Chaotic points to bump her off Lawful, she can no longer level as a monk, which is the character's concept around which the graverobbing is based. I too play a Lawful character, and I've taken several Chaotic hits because I've been partied with folks who's acts were either unknown or unstoppable by my character. In some cases I cannot protect my alignment from these actions by other players, and I have no means of restoring my alignment. Yes you do. Contribute at a Lawful Deity's temple. The Temple of the Defenders is an option. I play a NG character who keeps taking Chaotic hits, too. So I make a point of contributing every now and again at the Temple in Suzail. I believe Kelemvor's Garden in Thunderstone also helps.
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Post by olwentheold on Aug 9, 2007 7:36:34 GMT -5
Contribute at a Lawful Deity's temple. The Temple of the Defenders is an option. I play a NG character who keeps taking Chaotic hits, too. So I make a point of contributing every now and again at the Temple in Suzail. I believe Kelemvor's Garden in Thunderstone also helps. I hope this is all done in some RP context other than for the sake of AL shifts. That said, the FR is a polytheistic setting and it is very common for everyone to say a prayer or offer a little "bribe" to a faith other than one's own patron god's. This is one aspect I rarely see from the majority of our players here - would be nice to see it
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spacecowboy16739
New Member
(CG) College Student 6 / Bard 8 / Rogue 2 / Mastermind 1
Posts: 80
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Post by spacecowboy16739 on Aug 9, 2007 9:40:03 GMT -5
I can understand the players doing it OOC, though: the engine is causing an unwanted, and arguably, unwarranted alignment shift, so they have to make use of the engine to get their alignment back to where it's supposed to be. I can very easily see a LE cleric or blackguard digging up graves to have corpses to study -- a far cry from a CE sorcerer destroying a cemetery out of frustration that none of the residents will rise to serve him.
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Post by HeatherRae on Aug 9, 2007 9:47:13 GMT -5
Contribute at a Lawful Deity's temple. The Temple of the Defenders is an option. I play a NG character who keeps taking Chaotic hits, too. So I make a point of contributing every now and again at the Temple in Suzail. I believe Kelemvor's Garden in Thunderstone also helps. I hope this is all done in some RP context other than for the sake of AL shifts. That said, the FR is a polytheistic setting and it is very common for everyone to say a prayer or offer a little "bribe" to a faith other than one's own patron god's. This is one aspect I rarely see from the majority of our players here - would be nice to see it Yup. The times that I have contributed at the temple of Tyr and Kelemvor's Garden, it was literally because my character was upset that a party member had done something to offend those gods and she wanted to make it right. Make sense?
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Post by HeatherRae on Aug 9, 2007 9:48:40 GMT -5
I can understand the players doing it OOC, though: the engine is causing an unwanted, and arguably, unwarranted alignment shift, so they have to make use of the engine to get their alignment back to where it's supposed to be. I can very easily see a LE cleric or blackguard digging up graves to have corpses to study -- a far cry from a CE sorcerer destroying a cemetery out of frustration that none of the residents will rise to serve him. Yes, but if they're a LE Cleric or Blackguard, I would think that their deity was Lawful, as well...and so, they should be normally contributing to their deity's tithe plate anyway. And there *are* shrines for the evil deities.
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Post by TermaForever on Aug 9, 2007 10:10:16 GMT -5
I can understand the players doing it OOC, though: the engine is causing an unwanted, and arguably, unwarranted alignment shift, so they have to make use of the engine to get their alignment back to where it's supposed to be. I can very easily see a LE cleric or blackguard digging up graves to have corpses to study -- a far cry from a CE sorcerer destroying a cemetery out of frustration that none of the residents will rise to serve him. Yes, but if they're a LE Cleric or Blackguard, I would think that their deity was Lawful, as well...and so, they should be normally contributing to their deity's tithe plate anyway. And there *are* shrines for the evil deities. *Goes on MapQuest to find a Bane tithe plate* Later folks! *gets lost* Heh...I think a fair bit of whats been said makes sense. I can certainly say this, playing Lawful Evil is fun ;D
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Post by Grozer on Aug 9, 2007 11:23:02 GMT -5
*Goes on MapQuest to find a Bane tithe plate* Later folks! *gets lost* Heh...I think a fair bit of whats been said makes sense. I can certainly say this, playing Lawful Evil is fun ;D FYI Mapquest doesnt even know where it is... You are having 'fun' playing LE? Pfft, we need to change that, not enough discipline, punishment and beatings in the name of a greater power for you.
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Post by TermaForever on Aug 9, 2007 13:09:22 GMT -5
You are having 'fun' playing LE? Pfft, we need to change that, not enough discipline, punishment and beatings in the name of a greater power for you. By 'fun' I mean plotting the eventual downfall of all things good, pure, and not me. *shifty eyes* *evil grin* *doom*
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Panros
Old School
Sneak Attack - Reach out and touch someone.
Posts: 479
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Post by Panros on Aug 9, 2007 13:26:42 GMT -5
I think there needs to be more lawful quests and events to match the many chaotic quests and events. Ying and Yang motha flippas!
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Post by Munroe on Aug 9, 2007 14:35:09 GMT -5
I tend to think that getting lawful points should be harder than getting chaotic points. Being lawful requires discipline, and if you're getting a lot of chaotic points, you might want to reconsider the degree of discipline you're putting forth.
This point is more relevant to non-scripted alignment shifts, but depending on which scripted shift you are receiving it may also be true.
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Post by wynter on Aug 10, 2007 13:49:05 GMT -5
mmm ok thanks sloth ,i always thought you had to act you aliment just like your supposed to try and act what your stats are. as for the Deity thing is there a le god temple that does this? and while i do agree getting lawful points from a dm should be harder i have been here for over a year now and have dms give me chaotic points on many occasions but have only gotten lawful points one time when i wouldn't let brom feel me up for some magic bolts. so in a whole year i haven't done anything lawful? is the only way to get lawful points turning down old perverts advances?
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Post by HeatherRae on Aug 10, 2007 14:57:51 GMT -5
mmm ok thanks sloth ,i always thought you had to act you aliment just like your supposed to try and act what your stats are. as for the Deity thing is there a le god temple that does this? and while i do agree getting lawful points from a dm should be harder i have been here for over a year now and have dms give me chaotic points on many occasions but have only gotten lawful points one time when i wouldn't let brom feel me up for some magic bolts. so in a whole year i haven't done anything lawful? is the only way to get lawful points turning down old perverts advances? The way it has appeared to work with good deities is that Chaotic Good deities give you Chaotic points, Lawful Good Deities give you Lawful points, and Neutral Good deities give you Good points. So, if it's the same for evil deities, then Chaotic Evil deities would give you Chaotic points, Lawful Evil deities would give you Lawful points, and Neutral Evil deities would just give you Evil points. Of course, you have to be careful which deity you tithe to if you're serving a particular god. Those evil guys are fighting all the time with each other and your god might smite you! LOL And if this is too much information to be giving out (because I don't think it is, but you never know), then please, DMs, edit out my post. Thanks!
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Post by Pookey on Aug 10, 2007 17:11:31 GMT -5
The way to get lawful points is to support law and order. Whether it be the laws of Redmist or Cormyr or even Isinhold. Supporting order means being orderly, predictable, stable.
To be evil at this, do these things for your own selfish ends and show no compassion for lawbreakers or those who are disorderly.
You see a starving child steal bread? Turn them in. They're a thief. Do -not- overlook it.
See someone selling with out license, get them to sell to you and then turn them in, hopefully collecting a reward.
Just a few examples of lawful evil. Feel free to PM me in game if you need more help.
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starofthewest
New Member
Player of Vestele Laelithar... yes, that woman is all my girlfriend's fault
Posts: 84
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Post by starofthewest on Aug 10, 2007 20:34:05 GMT -5
*Khondar looks about shiftily and fiddles with the gold chain around his neck at the mention of selling without a license*
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Post by brian333 on Aug 10, 2007 20:51:04 GMT -5
The way to get lawful points is to support law and order. Whether it be the laws of Redmist or Cormyr or even Isinhold. Supporting order means being orderly, predictable, stable. Sound like anyone you know?
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Post by robraine on Aug 18, 2007 15:11:39 GMT -5
In the paper game I always tried to use the examples for people that a lawful evil person is one that commits evil acts to acheive his goals. Either within his own code of conduct or the communities code of coduct. A fine exmaple of a lawful evil is Denzel Washington in Training Day. Dirty cops can nail that one for you every time.The ganes engine will enter fear however the DM's should be able to counter that?
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Post by wynter on Sept 8, 2007 23:44:38 GMT -5
mmm i must doing something wrong then, i have tried praying at the lady of pains alter (Le god i believe) at the red wizards town at least one a day for over a week now but haven't gotten any aliment shifts
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mastersenge
Old School
[orange]Player Advocate[/orange] Scoutmaster of Evil Scouts Troop 1372
"I can't brain today. I've got the dumb."
Posts: 516
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Post by mastersenge on Sept 13, 2007 7:55:41 GMT -5
I've been looking through here and havent seen any real answer as to how to get lawful points on an evil character other than having a DM do the alignment shift. All of the evil shrines and temples I have come across give evil points and not chaotic or lawful. Even the the extremes of those being Bane and Cyric both give an evil point. At least thats what I hear *grins*. I see alot of people mentioning how to play your lawful alignment but that doesnt help with alignment shifts really. As far as DMs shifting alignment I would imagine thats usually not the first thing they are thinking about when watching a character unless its something extreme and even then its often overlooked. Chaotic points are real easy to get on your own but getting lawful points is hard and it should be hard but not that hard. Ive had to change religions and the way one of my characters acts for never being able to get a lawful point. He went on one quest not realiing the elf he was with was going to be stealing things as they went along and even then the place was suppose to be searched so only the ooc knowledge of the alignment shift would let him know anything was wrong and well i cant say anymore without giving away knowledge about the quest but it was one in suzail for those that know which one I'm talking about Of course you could also argue that an evil character has no business helping war wizards in the first place on that. As far as quests for lawful points I only really know of one and its not something an evil character would do and if they did and did it evil they would get loads of chaotic points. *shrugs* I'm still just curious how an evil character can get lawful points without DM intervention and havent seen any answers here yet.
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Post by Grozer on Sept 13, 2007 15:49:57 GMT -5
I've been looking through here and havent seen any real answer as to how to get lawful points on an evil character other than having a DM do the alignment shift. All of the evil shrines and temples I have come across give evil points and not chaotic or lawful. Even the the extremes of those being Bane and Cyric both give an evil point. At least thats what I hear *grins*. I see alot of people mentioning how to play your lawful alignment but that doesnt help with alignment shifts really. As far as DMs shifting alignment I would imagine thats usually not the first thing they are thinking about when watching a character unless its something extreme and even then its often overlooked. Chaotic points are real easy to get on your own but getting lawful points is hard and it should be hard but not that hard. Ive had to change religions and the way one of my characters acts for never being able to get a lawful point. He went on one quest not realiing the elf he was with was going to be stealing things as they went along and even then the place was suppose to be searched so only the ooc knowledge of the alignment shift would let him know anything was wrong and well i cant say anymore without giving away knowledge about the quest but it was one in suzail for those that know which one I'm talking about Of course you could also argue that an evil character has no business helping war wizards in the first place on that. As far as quests for lawful points I only really know of one and its not something an evil character would do and if they did and did it evil they would get loads of chaotic points. *shrugs* I'm still just curious how an evil character can get lawful points without DM intervention and havent seen any answers here yet. There isnt.. I havent found a way in all my time. In my case, I just let Fzoul torture and cut Ranan's tongue out without resisting.... that was lawful.. got a few points for that. Come to Redmist and allow Ranan to torture you, thank him afterwards... might be worth a point or two. ((completely tongue in cheek))
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Post by moulinous on Sept 13, 2007 16:35:31 GMT -5
I've been looking through here and havent seen any real answer as to how to get lawful points on an evil character other than having a DM do the alignment shift. All of the evil shrines and temples I have come across give evil points and not chaotic or lawful. Even the the extremes of those being Bane and Cyric both give an evil point. At least thats what I hear *grins*. I see alot of people mentioning how to play your lawful alignment but that doesnt help with alignment shifts really. As far as DMs shifting alignment I would imagine thats usually not the first thing they are thinking about when watching a character unless its something extreme and even then its often overlooked. Chaotic points are real easy to get on your own but getting lawful points is hard and it should be hard but not that hard. Ive had to change religions and the way one of my characters acts for never being able to get a lawful point. He went on one quest not realiing the elf he was with was going to be stealing things as they went along and even then the place was suppose to be searched so only the ooc knowledge of the alignment shift would let him know anything was wrong and well i cant say anymore without giving away knowledge about the quest but it was one in suzail for those that know which one I'm talking about Of course you could also argue that an evil character has no business helping war wizards in the first place on that. As far as quests for lawful points I only really know of one and its not something an evil character would do and if they did and did it evil they would get loads of chaotic points. *shrugs* I'm still just curious how an evil character can get lawful points without DM intervention and havent seen any answers here yet. There isnt.. I havent found a way in all my time. In my case, I just let Fzoul torture and cut Ranan's tongue out without resisting.... that was lawful.. got a few points for that. Come to Redmist and allow Ranan to torture you, thank him afterwards... might be worth a point or two. ((completely tongue in cheek)) wouldnt that be tongue cut out of cheek?
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Post by canuckkane on Sept 24, 2007 11:37:59 GMT -5
I can see wynter's point here though... long death monks are grave robbers... it's what they do, however, the way the game engine works you get chaotic points for this... and there are very few ways to balance that out. Following the edicts of one's beliefs/monastic order should not penalize you... it just doesn't make sense. Just my two cents.
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Post by wynter on Sept 29, 2007 15:54:43 GMT -5
thanks canuck,thats my point ,i cant level as a monk now because i follow what my order does? And i night of whips and chains with Ranan ;D sounds....fun
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Post by Helgrin Granitesoul on Sept 29, 2007 17:29:22 GMT -5
umm.. they are grave robbers in the sense that they take the bodies.. not the goods that were buried with them..
So.. if they take the goods.. hence the chaotic points
From Monks of the Long Death by Ed Greenwood
Though the organization known as the Monks of the Long Death is strongest in Thay, it does have monasteries in several other parts of Faerun, including the Silver Marches. Some two dozen members of the order dwell in a hidden stronghold built long ago by unknown hands in the Turnstone Hills, not far from where the pass is blocked by a gigantic landslide. From here the monks pursue their one abiding interest: death.
These monks seek for the secrets of life by studying death. It is the condition of being dead that concerns them most, and not what lies beyond: The afterlife holds little interest for them. Their laboratories are full of decaying, dying, and dead animal and plant specimens that they study with detached interest; they frequently purchase rare specimens that they cannot obtain easily themselves from adventurers and merchants. But such studies are only part of the monks' daily life: They seek to understand death as it pertains especially to intelligent living beings.
To this end, they exhume corpses from crypts and graveyards, and then they transport the corpses to their monastery. There they examine the cadavers in their well-stocked laboratory and observe them as they decompose. They also -- and it is for this that they are most reviled and feared -- purchase living slaves and put them to death, slowly, recording their observations and asking the perishing slaves questions about their fatal experience. Slaves are hard to come by in the Silver Marches, however, because Lady Alustriel and her confederations condemn the practice. The order has been obliged to obtain its living specimens by other means, such as abducting them from outlying farmsteads and poorly-defended hamlets in the dead of night. The monks suffer no moral qualms about these deeds: Death is the most natural thing in the world, from their perspective, and to expire in service to its principle is the most profoundly holy experience any living being can hope to enjoy. It is for this reason that the monks themselves do not fear death, and while they may study the dead, they do not seek that state themselves.
Most of the order's members are either scholars who share mutual fascination with and worship of death and dying, or clergy who worship one of the deities concerned with death. Some of the monks consider themselves to be nothing less than visionaries whose work will pave the way for a better future for all Faerun: When death is truly understood, it can be harnessed and used as a tool for the betterment of all, or so they rationalize to themselves. Others who take the Vows of Death could not possibly care less about anything other than increasing their personal measure of understanding about their chosen subject.
So.. from what I see..
If you are going into those crypts to steal BODIES.. then you are true to the tenents of the Long Death Order..
If you are going there and come out with any loot.. not so much
If you are doing it with Necromancers.. because they want bodies for their work.. also not so much since it isnt what comes after that is important.. it is the occurence of death itself.
Now.. I have never been with you when you went into a crypt so I cant say how you have been rping it when you are in there.. this was just so other's might understand what the beleifs of the ORder of the Long Death are about. Take it as you will.
So.. get some bodies.. watch them decay.. get some slaves and slowly kill them *shudders* Maybe those lawful points will come..
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