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Hoods
Apr 21, 2007 18:34:24 GMT -5
Post by DM Grizwald on Apr 21, 2007 18:34:24 GMT -5
So i've somewhat noticed a change in how we rp wearing hoods now. Alot of people i guess go as it as you can still see the person's face or at least thats what i've noticed.
I'm just curious as to how we're rp'ing hoods these days. Back a about 6 months ago, you couldn't identify someone's face when you wore them. Is it still the same thing or have things changed?
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Hoods
Apr 21, 2007 18:40:10 GMT -5
Post by marklar on Apr 21, 2007 18:40:10 GMT -5
i think it's upto the player of that character, hoods can be large to cover much of ones face, or they can be small and cover nothing. if they emote something that makes you think you can see their face, then go with it but untill then i'd say don't.
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Hoods
Apr 21, 2007 18:56:12 GMT -5
Post by moulinous on Apr 21, 2007 18:56:12 GMT -5
there is a disguise mask/helm though...shouldnt that be the disguise item? And that is a question btw...not a statement,lol. I think maybe in lowlight/shadowy areas like a tevrn or a cave, yes, a hood should be suffecient....but in a city during the day?
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Hoods
Apr 22, 2007 4:22:33 GMT -5
Post by cloakedandhooded on Apr 22, 2007 4:22:33 GMT -5
Have you ever seen one of these? They are a black-out mask that is sold as a Halloween novelty mask. They cost approximately $5-$10. They allow the wearer to see out but prevent others from seeing the wearer's face. I have one in my closet right now. (Two, actually, but one is part of a bigger costume.) They work better in lighted situations than dark situations, because the wearer receives more light through the fabric. The fabric, which has a slight sheen, appears black under all but close inspection. I consider that Joseph wears a veil of this cheap fabric (or one similar) sewn into his hood at all times. As I said, this kind of mask is easier to see out of in bright lighting conditions, but Joseph has Darkvision so the lighting conditions shouldn't be an issue. However, even if you don't care to accept that a black veil is easily added to any hood, there are hoods (Assassins' Hoods) sold in Redmist (and perhaps other places) that specifically say in their description that they conceal the wearer's identity. So, by my reasoning, even in the brightest of lighting conditions, you should check to see if someone's face is visible before you assume you can see it.
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Hoods
Apr 22, 2007 9:36:54 GMT -5
Post by Quadhund/Greenhouse on Apr 22, 2007 9:36:54 GMT -5
You should never assume you can see a person's face when it is covered by a hood or helm. I would always send an ooc tell to the player asking them if they are disguised/unable to see face. Now you may be able to recognise them through other means, but it is always best to play it safe. So when you are wearing a hood and wondering why hrothgar isn't talking to you, half the time is cause i dont want to bother with the ooc tell
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Hoods
Apr 22, 2007 14:44:58 GMT -5
Post by DM Grizwald on Apr 22, 2007 14:44:58 GMT -5
Ok thanks, i hope this clarifies things for myself and others as well
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Hoods
Apr 23, 2007 2:10:35 GMT -5
Post by Talus on Apr 23, 2007 2:10:35 GMT -5
To take this a bit further. Just a friendly reminder that I can't see you smile through a helm. ;D And if your face is covered with a hood, I can't see that either.
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shimmerxxx
Old School
Yer spilt me pint!
Posts: 406
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Hoods
Apr 23, 2007 3:27:52 GMT -5
Post by shimmerxxx on Apr 23, 2007 3:27:52 GMT -5
To take this a bit further. Just a friendly reminder that I can't see you smile through a helm. Possible exception to this: Some of the helms portrayed are the type that have visors that swing up or to the side. When not in combat it would be usual to have the visor open, allowing easier breathing and sight (and therefore for a face to be seen). The first thing a warrior would do after strenous combat would be to open the visor for a breather. I will usually try to RP *Flips up visor* before I use any facial expression, but if I see others wearing helms and using facial expressions (or spitting ) then I assume they have opened their visors first... 'cos spitting in your own helm is kinda gross..
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Hoods
Apr 23, 2007 7:49:37 GMT -5
Post by moulinous on Apr 23, 2007 7:49:37 GMT -5
yeah, i dig the hood you are talking about that is covered for some of my pcs....i know that guldie wears one that is open in the front and is more to kepp rain out than anything,lol. But good post on the masked one....
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Hoods
Apr 23, 2007 13:07:50 GMT -5
Post by ShadowCatJen on Apr 23, 2007 13:07:50 GMT -5
Generally as a common courtesy I'll give a tell to the hooded person asking if their face is visible. Especially if I have aims to talk to the person. Otherwise I go under the assumption that the person doesn't want to be known. Just seems easier to me that way.
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Hoods
May 8, 2007 17:37:41 GMT -5
Post by ashaffer on May 8, 2007 17:37:41 GMT -5
As someone said previously, not all hoods are the same... If someone emotes a smile, or other facial expression, assume that even though they are hooded some of their face can still be seen.
The hood Brin wears, for example, is one that is mostly to shade her eyes, and to keep the rain off her head. Unless I emote that she is pulling her hood forward, and stop emoting facial expressions entirely, I figure people can see at least part of her face.
Just my 2 cents...
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Hoods
May 10, 2007 6:13:34 GMT -5
Post by Teneas on May 10, 2007 6:13:34 GMT -5
Basically the same for me. Ten is always smirking and grinning. I always just kinda assumed that you could at least see the persons lower face if nothing else. Then I just started throwing out that "a golden grin can be seen neath the hood."
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Hoods
Jan 21, 2008 14:08:35 GMT -5
Post by brian333 on Jan 21, 2008 14:08:35 GMT -5
What this conversation is missing is that very little of the recognition part of your brain relies on the face. Have you ever been on a camping trip and confused one of your friends for another in the dark? (Try to use that excuse with your girlfriend and her sister!)
Here's an experiment for you all to try:
Bring robes and hoods to class and get as many of your classmates as you can to perform the experiment. Have a number of them stay inside while you and some others stay outside. The inside guys come out one at a time, walk around a bit, then go back in. A person on the inside records who went out in what order. The outside guys each note who they think the hooded and robed person is, then when it's all done, compare lists.
I'll be interested in the results, but anyone who has gone through Army training can tell you what they will be.
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Hoods
Jan 21, 2008 16:27:18 GMT -5
Post by DM Richard (Retired) on Jan 21, 2008 16:27:18 GMT -5
One would think the results of this exercise could DRASTICALLY change depending on several factors.
Degree of familiarity with the people involved. Degree of similarity of the people involved. Predisposition of answers based on prior knowledge of who is available to be in the group. How long it has been since you last interacted with the person face to face. Degree of similarity of the person to someone else you know. Number of people involved.
I think the biggest bias of this test is if you know who you are trying to find among the shapes.
Try that same trick except let 10% of the people be those you know and 90% be unknown to you. If you have no idea who among your friends, family, neighborhood bullies, ex-girlfriends, etc. the 10% are made up of that you are looking for then you have a real test.
You have to compare the figure before you to everyone you know and decide if it is ANY of them or a stranger.
How many times do you think you would pick a stranger out to be someone from your past?
How many times will you think someone you know is a stranger?
I don't think it is a question of can people be recognised... as much as how often would you be correct if you have no prior information to rule out lists of people.
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Hoods
Jan 21, 2008 21:35:19 GMT -5
Post by EDM Entori on Jan 21, 2008 21:35:19 GMT -5
also depends on what said person is wearing/carrying.
Entori comes to town with his orange glowy catty staff, hooded. Almost anyone whose seen my description of ent in emote/tell. knows thats him
as well as the robe, elf wizard by stature in green/blue with catty staff.
generally I think rich is right, depends on familiarity, and if in any doubt ask. but I suppose he summed it up there, didn't know if it was locked but heres my two cents..
ent
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Hoods
Jan 21, 2008 23:41:07 GMT -5
Post by brian333 on Jan 21, 2008 23:41:07 GMT -5
I know words won't convince you, so do the experiment.
Recognition is more a matter of body language than facial recognition. It's harder to conceal the way you walk than it is to conceal your face.
How many people do you see in cold-weather climates like Alaska or Michigan, who have trouble identifying people they know at a distance? Those folks wear mufflers, hoods, and all kinds of odd head-and-face coverings.
The thing is, recognition is a hindbrain function. People do it automatically, without thought. Facial expression is a communication tool, and humans fixate on faces for that reason.
Even a person you know only in passing is easily recognizable as someone who belongs, and therefore is overlooked as you pass him.
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Hoods
Jan 21, 2008 23:45:06 GMT -5
Post by wynter on Jan 21, 2008 23:45:06 GMT -5
ok this might be a little off topic but what skill is used for recognizing a persons voice? now i recently did something, i was hooded,wearing a style of robes i never wear unless i am in disguise but a person i was told who had a listen skill of 20 said they knew it was me. now i have had some interactions with said person but no where near on a daily bases or any long conversations. now its all said and done and i will have to live with my actions but for future reference i would like to know what needs to be done to counter this,
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Hoods
Jan 22, 2008 0:27:10 GMT -5
Post by EDM Neo on Jan 22, 2008 0:27:10 GMT -5
Just a quick disclaimer, the following is just my thoughts on things, and is by no means necessarily correct; if anyone has an issue with how I play and see things, I'd be glad to discuss it.
I don't really want to comment much on specific examples unless it's asked for, but the above regarding how people are recognized more by body language then facial recognition goes double for monks such as Wynter, as they walk and run *fast*, in a much different fashion from ordinary people.
Unless they're making some special effort to move more slowly and hide it, someone who sees a monk walk just ten or twenty feet immediately narrows down the possible suspects, by a lot. It would probably be very easily recognized. Standing quietly in an outfit in which you'd be unrecognizable with face hidden is one thing, but certain other behavior really may draw attention.
As far as voices go, personally, unless the person in question emotes disguising their voice, or talks in a fashion far different then they normally do, I presume that the voice in question can be recognized. Something that should also be taken into account is that, simply, unless your character has ranks in the appropriate skill, why would they be presumed a convincing actor? Especially when dealing with observant and intelligent characters, who would be even more likely to note flaws in an disguise then others?
I'm not suggesting bothering with rolls every time, or even most of the time; if it gets to the point that it's more important then the actual role play, something's wrong. Just keep in mind that, unless your character has ranks in bluff, perform, or whatever the relevant skill would be, isn't it sort of OOC to have a flawless disguise, and to be completely unrecognizable, despite acting in the exact same fashion as you normally do, and only having a different outfit?
Again, if anyone believes there's anything wrong with my thoughts above, feel free to say so. Always open to criticism/corrections, this is just my 12 cents.
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Hoods
Jan 22, 2008 0:58:27 GMT -5
Post by wynter on Jan 22, 2008 0:58:27 GMT -5
some good points,i kinda take it for granted that if someone is in disguise that they are also trying to change their voice and I'm not the fastest typer so i kinda get lost when trying to emote everything, believe me i wish things went a Little slower cause i would love to emote and talk more especially in pvp combat as for the movement thing thats more of a nwn flaw,i mean i can walk in search and stealth mode and still move faster then everyone else and there is not much i can do about it, but i think you also have to look at it this way i take it there is supposed to be many npc in the world and so there is more monks then what the current pc population is so judging people by movement when certain spells might also be used is kinda flawed
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Hoods
Jan 22, 2008 1:01:28 GMT -5
Post by Munroe on Jan 22, 2008 1:01:28 GMT -5
Just a quick disclaimer, the following is just my thoughts on things, and is by no means necessarily correct; if anyone has an issue with how I play and see things, I'd be glad to discuss it. I don't really want to comment much on specific examples unless it's asked for, but the above regarding how people are recognized more by body language then facial recognition goes double for monks such as Wynter, as they walk and run *fast*, in a much different fashion from ordinary people. Unless they're making some special effort to move more slowly and hide it, someone who sees a monk walk just ten or twenty feet immediately narrows down the possible suspects, by a lot. It would probably be very easily recognized. Standing quietly in an outfit in which you'd be unrecognizable with face hidden is one thing, but certain other behavior really may draw attention. Monks being forced to move faster than regular people is a limitation of the Neverwinter Nights engine, not something they are required to do all the time by virtue of being monks. The monk class grants movement speed increases, but just because a monk CAN move faster does not mean the monk has to move faster. Forced increased movement speed is one of two examples I can think of where a class benefit of D&D becomes the only possible option for members of that class in the transition to Neverwinter Nights. Monks should be able to walk the same speed as everyone else if that's the speed they choose to move. Monk movement is somewhat off-topic for this thread though, which is about hoods. The question about hoods was answered on the previous page of the thread by Greenhouse, by the way.
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Hoods
Jan 22, 2008 4:54:33 GMT -5
Post by Munroe on Jan 22, 2008 4:54:33 GMT -5
ok this might be a little off topic but what skill is used for recognizing a persons voice? now i recently did something, i was hooded,wearing a style of robes i never wear unless i am in disguise but a person i was told who had a listen skill of 20 said they knew it was me. now i have had some interactions with said person but no where near on a daily bases or any long conversations. now its all said and done and i will have to live with my actions but for future reference i would like to know what needs to be done to counter this, Not sure on this one off the top of my head. I think we have a thread about it around here somewhere. It's been discussed but I don't remember what the resolution was.
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Hoods
Jan 22, 2008 9:19:17 GMT -5
Post by dmimmersion on Jan 22, 2008 9:19:17 GMT -5
There are several if you use the search function to search for the right key words.. I searched bluff and found this one frc.proboards37.com/index.cgi?action=display&board=dmqa&thread=1190484007&page=1In particular since it is a general question post I have quoted the post ~ Use of Bluff ~To Detect Lie = Bluff vs. Bluff To Detect a Falsified Voice = Bluff (or Performance) vs. Listen To detect a disguise = Bluff vs. Spot A player calling for a bluff check needs to be able to provide a valid RP reason for the check. (What is causing you to have doubts?) A person simply walking by wearing a hood (no interaction) is not a valid reason to call for a bluff check. Depending on how well you know the "bluffer" players can agree on (or DM's may call for) additional modifiers (positive or negative) to the rolls. Simply knowing the "bluffer" does not give you automatic success....you would still need to have a valid RP reason to suspect them. And you would still need to make the rolls. Now, that said. let's say I just successfully made my spot vs. a players bluff roll to disguise his appearance. This does not mean that I automatically recognize who this person is. It merely indicates that I am certain they aren't who (or what) he or she is pretending to be. I would wait for the opposing player (or DM) to call for a roll before I made it....if you just spin a yarn and then roll a bluff check, then everyone knows on an OOC level that what you have just said is a lie an interpretation of truth. As has been stated before, a barkskin (or stoneskin) potion will be considered enough to hide a person's features. Alot of the information 'is' on the forums, it's just not always easy to find. My vote (if I had one heheh) would be to post the info in the roleplaying ideas/suggestions/discussion section and then to have a (real) dm give it a sticky so it won't get lost in the void. As for the occurence that brought this discussion about.. I will be contacting all parties involved tonight after I get back.. Time to go give a presentation and all day meeting so do not have the time right now.
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Hoods
Jan 22, 2008 18:47:58 GMT -5
Post by Pookey on Jan 22, 2008 18:47:58 GMT -5
Though you can probably ignore the part about barkskin or stoneskin obscuring a person's features since there is no longer a visible effect.
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Hoods
Jan 22, 2008 20:18:30 GMT -5
Post by Lokarn on Jan 22, 2008 20:18:30 GMT -5
Not exactly about hoods, but as far as I can tell the topic has morphed to disguise in general.
Every where I look, assassins are touted as having an incredible knack for creating/using disguises. I can't find anything recent but in older versions of PnP Some books say that an assassin can use a disguise to appear up to 5 inches taller and 3 inches shorter than they truly are. They could even play the oposite sex and look heavier or slimmer.
I failed to find out what type of rolls are used. However, in every place I look, Assassins are spoken of as masters of using such things, and RP wise it makes sense to me. As for other classes, rogues possibly, some class combinations, sure. Bards, again yes it's a sort of skill they use continually. I don't know about other classes though, those three just stick out at me as having good reasons why they would be adept at such things.
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Hoods
Jan 22, 2008 20:38:14 GMT -5
Post by wynter on Jan 22, 2008 20:38:14 GMT -5
well I'm kinda limited to what disguises i can use myself..i own a couple of illusion rings but was told by dms that those don't work on voices and i think true seeing sees Thur them so i rarely use them and the disguise kit is for males only and i haven't been able to find some clothes to "ahem" hide my female assets so its kinda weird having a male head on a female body hehe so basicly a hood is all i really have or helmet i would guess
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Hoods
Jan 22, 2008 21:49:42 GMT -5
Post by Aodhan the Unusual on Jan 22, 2008 21:49:42 GMT -5
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Hoods
Jan 22, 2008 22:42:49 GMT -5
Post by EDM Entori on Jan 22, 2008 22:42:49 GMT -5
just gonna throw in a recommend, here.
as previously stated your a slow typer, and as for her being human and female (really you'd stick in better as an elf lol) here is what I would suggest, as a player to another player.
Emote a disguise, this is RP land afterall, and if you can think it you can pretty much do it. find a few choice emotes.. and make them into the quick slots, its called a macro I think, basically when you click it the text appears. This way when you come into town, etc, click the f4 key, or use your mouse and it will come up.
However, besides that, from my experience you gotta think outside the box, and really, role play your character in a manner she would not act in. I've been around your character off and on since I joined FRC, and you have some very tell tale traits. (just like how you can guess the DM's your against from their emotes)
as for that.. when someone goes hey look its blah blah blah... ignore it, cause if their not waiting for you to emote, their metagaming, unless they have a valid reason. Then your shafted.
I've never seen wynter in a dress though all the same. and you can put on that disguise kit, and emote *has a muscular build etc etc* what we see is just representation. if not, then theres a bunch of people on the server that look alike. Personally I don't like the spell effects in NWN. I don't like how see invis is displayed, I doubt it makes a bunch of eyes around your head. Though I do agree that other wizards and those who could tell, would know you've a spell active, and tell what it is. I've emoted entori's eyes glowing purple for true sight for a moment, permanently for see invis. ETc etc etc
basicly, if you stay within confines of FRC rules, and within reasonable limits its a free for all for your imagination, and the imagination of others.
I know macros are not much help, but maybe they were previously unconsidered.
best of luck figuring it out.
Entori
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Hoods
Jan 22, 2008 23:12:07 GMT -5
Post by wynter on Jan 22, 2008 23:12:07 GMT -5
ok..thanks entori ,i think i get it i dont really need to have the graphic effect of a disguise to say that i am in disguise as long as i emote that i am?
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Hoods
Jan 22, 2008 23:27:43 GMT -5
Post by EDM Entori on Jan 22, 2008 23:27:43 GMT -5
hells ya!. I mean I'm no Dm, (now I would make a effort IC)
but if you put on manly set of plate, (even use the robe function to give wynter some monk robes, dye feature to do this and that)
give yourself a rough coverage, and add the specialties with emotes your good. I mean its not gonna cover the fact that your female graphically, but I mean if you make an attempt to the best of your ability mechanically. then go from there with emotes. sounds solid to me
Entori
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Hoods
Jan 22, 2008 23:40:03 GMT -5
Post by brian333 on Jan 22, 2008 23:40:03 GMT -5
I would appreciate it if Wynter were not the example used here. This situation is not limited to that particular character, and due to my failure to read this thread I took actions which, had I known this ruling, I would not have done either in game or out.
I accept DM rulings, even those I disagree with. I will voice my opinions, though, in the hopes that either I will learn where my opinion is wrong, or the staff will see what's right about my opinion and learn from it.
I've heard opinions on how the test I proposed might work out, but I urge you to try the test, in whatever permutations you can dream of. The more the better.
Now, a specific example which anyone who has served in the military will be able to verify:
When I went to boot camp, everyone dressed the same, had the same haircut, wore the same hat, marched the same, and seldom spoke except in unison and at the top of his lungs. Being short, I was always in the last few rows of the formation, yet I had no difficulty identifying my fellow boots from behind, after only a couple of days of exposure. I didn't know most of them by name, unless the DI called them by it, but I knew every one of my fellows, and recognized several some years later, while drunk in a crowded bar in Naples.
I lived on a ship for three years with over 300 other sailors who dressed the same, etc., and in addition, were being transferred in and out regularly. I didn't know them all by name, but I did know who belonged, recognized them when seen at a distance on the ship, the docks, or in the local clubs, and some years later, met several in a bar near my local shipyard when their ship was in for maintenance.
Recognition is far easier than most folk here seem to think. It's something primates are really good at.
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