OOC Considerations in an IC Environment

[ShadowCatJen]

There is a side to things that must be addressed. It involves those who are already well established on FRC. Sometimes when you get patted on the back for good RP and keeping yourself IC at all times you get a little bit egotistical about yourself. You figure that anything you do, as long as it's all In Character, is perfectly alright to do. However, there is a limit to that and there is time and place for everything.

While we all wish to promote good roleplaying and character development, we must remember that this is in fact not the real world. It is a world built for entertainment... everyones enjoyment. We need to remember that we are sharing this server with other people and so sometimes OOC considerations must take precedence over IC developments.

Let me use a past example to illustrate part of what I mean.

There were three players. Two had guardsmen PCs and the other had a character walking a dark path (we'll call him "Maul"). Maul had a problem -- both IC and OOC -- with the other two and vice verse. The problem had become so severe that the DM crew was no longer doing quests, they were only doing damage control between the three and their destructive RP. The admins of the server kindly asked that they all halt their RP for a bit so the crew and the three could talk things over in a rational manner. During a period of when the forums went down due to technical reasons, Maul set fire to the guardhouse and got into a PvP situation with the two guardsmen. With the boards down none of the DMs could confirm that it was all approved by one of the crew. By the time the boards came back up the damage had been done and there was no way that much RP could be reversed or ignored.

We spent nearly two weeks trying to iron out the hurt feelings and general ill will. When the crew confronted Maul's player about the situation he stated that it was all In Character for Maul to do so and that he had done nothing wrong. No matter what arguments we used he continued to deny he did anything wrong and ranted that he was fully in his rights as a roleplayer to have Maul do as he did. What his ego wouldn't let him see was that he had put himself above the needs of the rest of the community. He had no clue as to the damage and stress he and the others caused for the DM crew, and thus, the server as a whole.

When the DM's stop running you through quests and you spend more time in OOC arguments/complaints with DMs and others then you do RPing then it's time to step back and assess the situation.

"Are my actions, though IC for my character, causing more grief for all involved?"

"Am I letting my OOC feelings toward this player causing me to decide to act this way ICly toward his/her character?"

"How can I be mature about this and compromise so that all sides are having fun again and ill will can be set aside?"

"Is what I'm doing just making more work for the DM crew on RP/IC issues or PR (Public Relations)/OOC issues?"

"Am I being selfish in this situation and complaining simply because I'm not getting exactly what I want?"

These are the sort of harsh questions you may have to ask yourself. You may not even enjoy the answers you give (provided you are being truthful with yourself). However, by seeing that "it was all In Character" isn't always the best answer for things then that is a step in the right direction. And as much as we want to keep things In Character as much as possible, there is a time when OOC considerations must take precedence.

For instance, during server events or DM quests. Neither of these is the time to bring up some personal drama your character might have. After the event is winding down, yes, not in the middle of the host's speech. After the quest is completed, yes, not right when the DM is giving clues on where you go next. Doing such can practically kill a quest or event and make things generally Not Fun. Remember, time and place for everything. Consider OOCly these things and hold off on your IC dealings when the time is more appropriate.

I hope that what I have placed here gets through to the ones that need this advise. If not, I hope it simply provides some insight on things. All this is not aimed at anyone in particular and is just my thought and opinions I've developed from my online experiences. I expect responses, even negative ones, but if you disagree with me then please keep it civil and constructive.

Thank You

P.S. This ramble/rant/essay is to try and help the DM crew deal with less OOC/PR issues (not fun) and more IC/RP issues (very fun) by getting through to the player base. *crosses fingers*

[Quadhund/Greenhouse]

*wonders when Justi is gonna make an honest woman out of shadowcat and turn her into a dm due to all her insightful knowledge* ;D

Excellent points! I know often there are times where you have to hold back on performing something IC because it would ruin the fun for everyone. Almost 100% of the time it is in PvP (not necessarily fighting) situations. Most apparent in my mind is taking items from one another. Thus, if it is going to happen assure the person there will somehow be a way for them to retreive them, or dont take them in the first place for reasons of "not wanting to be detected by a divining spell".

If situations like these are ruining a player's fun and the DMs have to get involved, then all the players involved need to take a step back and look at their actions. Be responsible and try to make sure everyone else around you is having as good a time as you are.

[Munroe]

This has little to nothing to do with pickpocket/thieving as I see it since that is a clearly abusive behaviour when done in the extreme, and this is talking more about general In-Character Roleplay as abuse.

shadowcatjen said:

For instance, during server events or DM quests. Neither of these is the time to bring up some personal drama your character might have. After the event is winding down, yes, not in the middle of the host's speech. After the quest is completed, yes, not right when the DM is giving clues on where you go next. Doing such can practically kill a quest or event and make things generally Not Fun. Remember, time and place for everything. Consider OOCly these things and hold off on your IC dealings when the time is more appropriate.

I generally don't agree with this statement. A character never stops being that character even in a situation. For instance, if a character is throwing a tantrum during a DM/player conversation, I think that increases the chance of something interesting happening, like the DMed NPC or the player character telling the crying player to shut up, or maybe smack her in the mouth. The most important thing is that the character behave as the character would behave. A CG barbarian should not be the one to say "Guys, we really should do what the guard says and obey the law. It's the law, after all" even if the quest is one about obeying the law. That's not the barbarian's place and it wouldn't be in-character for him to do so, nor desired for him to do so, no matter how much it is going to help the quest get underway. If he wants to pitch a fit and attack the guard, that's his choice. DMs have the responsibility of dealing with making their quests fit to the players. It is not the player's responsibility to make his character fit the quest.

The two problems I see with your example are:

1. It was the fault of the one who burned the guardhouse for not running it by someone first. Without a DM, I would not expect anyone to walk into Isinhold and say "I'm burning down the Regal Griffin." Yes, RP-wise, it might have been possible for him to go in and light the place on fire, but short of having a DM with him when he did it, he's playing with himself. If there were other players with him, that is a very different situation, but one that can still be worked through in-character. Especially without a DM, the fire is strictly in their imaginations (no visual effects) and perhaps the place just won't catch. Who knows...treated wood, anything.

2. The guards were also at fault for not handling the situation better and keeping it in-character. So what if the guardhouse burned down? It can always be rebuilt. Characters should be faced with adversity and change sometimes. Otherwise, the world stagnates. The characters should have been upset. The players? No, I don't think so.

So the problem was two-fold. The evil character's player didn't run his action by DMs first to make sure it was doable. (Without confirmation there is no way he can say for sure the place burned down.) The guard characters' players didn't keep IC actions IC.

I don't see how that example directly addresses in-character roleplay as being negative. Maybe it could be considered like pickpocket.... the actions hurt the player's feelings. Maybe....

[MTGPackFoils]

...and to add to her example...

As a player I was there amongst that chaos, but not one of the 3. Let's say I was maybe #4 or 5 on the list. The spilling over of RP had gotten so bad that players (outside of the 3 mentioned in the above example) started having their RP almost spill over to OOC.

Definitely take notice of these words SCJ speaks...for they are true.

When the staff of said server had presented us the players with a "gift" of something they had been working on the RP had erroded so much that it became way to stressful to manage and felt more like a job. The server is no longer up and is probably not ever coming back up.

I definitely would not like to see the same happen here.

If you, player or DM, find things to stressful then take a break. There have been a few times where I have been with another player and the lag gets so bad it's unplayable so I've taken a break...instead of letting my frustrations of a technical issue cause me to channel them the wrong way.

To those new to FRC reading this...if you have ANY questions and see anyone of the character names in my sig below on...feel free to send me a tell with any questions if a DM can not be reached.

This could be anything from general questions, to help with a build, and etc etc. This OOC consideration will help your IC environment...and ours too.

see you in game

[ShadowCatJen]

Yeah, I'm not referring too much to pickpocket situations, though one can certainly understand how it can easily spill over into bad OOC feelings.

What I'm speaking of is a very fine line.

Yes, you do want to have it that your CG Barbarian doesn't agree with the way the LG Paladin wants to deal with a DM run quest. What you don't want to have is since your angry that the Paladin killed your Barbarian last week, you're going to give yourself the excuse that your Barbarian is going to get in a fighting rage over this and initiate PvP with him. End result is that the Barbarian is jailed for murder and the quest is a wash.

Whatever the DM had planned for the group got grounded down to the DM having to pay full attention to just you. It suddenly becomes "damage control" instead of a quest. You, the player, give yourself the self justification that it was all IC, not realizing that you may have just made things Not Fun for everyone else.

Granted, sometimes situations like that can be interesting if done in moderation. Do it every time and you end up that the DMs gain stress from just seeing you on and know what sort of mess is probably waiting for them when they log on.

Not all DMs have a healthy callus and not all DMs have infinite patience. All I'm suggesting here is for people to think about it before they inject their own brand of melodrama into a situation.

Basically I don't want to see happen here what happened on a previous server: Players letting their OOC feelings spill over ICly and the DMs dreading coming on to nothing but the DM channel filled with complaints about what character did what to whom and who needs to "pay" for it. Where the DMs stop questing and only end up dealing with OOC issue after OOC issue.

This can also easily extend to the current lag situation. Yes, we all know there is a lag problem. It's something Justi and the crew is trying to deal with. It doesn't help when you know the lag is bad, but you head out anyway to a dungeon and then complain on the DM channel about dying because of the lag. You need to take the OOC consideration that there is lag and that, for once, your character needs to sit put and have a drink or you need to just log off until another time.

My example was simply to show how someone who justifies all their actions as being alright simply for the fact that it was all IC can be harmful if the actions only bring about more OOC grief.

[Munroe]

Ok, we seem to be talking about two different things then. You're talking about bringing OOC things in-character, which is bad. I agree with that. The original post sounded like you were encouraging not doing things that would be in-character because of out-of-character considerations.

We all don't do things that would be in-character because of out-of-character considerations such as "I have to go to the bank in 20 minutes so I shouldn't go on the dungeon crawl." Doing so is simply a matter of necessity. As for the barbarian killing the paladin in your example, since he died and can't remember what happened to him, he is OOC rationalizing, which would be bringing OOC things in-character, which, as I said, is bad.

As to what happened on whatever other server, I'm not entirely sure I see the relevence. Unless there is something particular here that has bothered you, I don't understand what you're suggesting beyond "play nice." If there is something specific that needs addressed, I would suggest addressing it to a DM so it can be.

If there's not something specific, what are we talking about?

[ShadowCatJen]

As was stated before, this isn't aimed at anyone in particular or any situation. Does something have to happen in order for me to say something?

This forum is for Ideas and Suggestions and my suggestion is that players need to stop and think before they feed into OOC ill will. More just generates more and makes things Not Fun for the community as a whole. Set aside your selfishness and compromise for everyone's sake.

Many before made the mistake of not speaking up about this and the end result was one dead server.

I'm currently saying it just as a form of preventive maintenance.

[DM Grizwald]

I think the DM's handle things well when it starts getting like that...there was once this chaotic cleric or bane who wanted to pvp all the time, especially with others that did the pc wrong ic and ooc. Of course that person is not playing here anymore. Have trust in our dm team, they should handle it

[hexer]

shadowcatjen said:

As was stated before, this isn't aimed at anyone in particular or any situation. Does something have to happen in order for me to say something?

This forum is for Ideas and Suggestions and my suggestion is that players need to stop and think before they feed into OOC ill will. More just generates more and makes things Not Fun for the community as a whole. Set aside your selfishness and compromise for everyone's sake.

Many before made the mistake of not speaking up about this and the end result was one dead server.

I'm currently saying it just as a form of preventive maintenance.

I totally agree. And, no, I don't think there has to be an actual problem to bring up potential problems, Munroe. No harm in a discussion, right?

[Dachshund]

Some excellent points here. Since there's always room to become a better rp'er, I think it's great to bring up such things before they happen.

I've never given such matters much thought, but I will now after reading this post.

Thanks for posting it.

[MTGPackFoils]

moulinous said:

POINT #1 Not everyone has all that time to play and, please do not misconstrue this dms, some people get overlooked on their rping as they do not rp with the "right" people.

POINT #2 Sorry going off on a tangent...i disagree with the statement about oocing something when it is for the betterment of the group. I think it is for the betterment of the group to be IC at all times if possible. Such as, for an example, the other day i was traveling with an elf who told me to stay behind him when some giants attacked...anyone who has ever met Guldar KNOWS that he would not stay behind even though if i died it would be a burden on the group and the dm led quest. And an elf saying that? lol, do not see that happening. My guy mouths off to wizards, to dragons, to epics, to bar keeps, an even to balors. Does this sometimes get a dm mad who is trying to lead a quest? probally...but it is what the pc in question would do, so he should do it.

As far as pt #1...I agree. On the previous example by SCJ there seemed to be somewhat of a clique with the player base. I don't see that here which is a GREAT thing. Being a PNP DM I appreciate all the work the online DMs do because there are some similarities and I can understand the amount of work that goes into this. Heck...the other day Aeron was discussing some things with characters he knows about recent news and was rewarded with a little bit of rp...before being hit by lightning. ;D ;D

On pt #2 I think you're missing the point. The players in the example felt that they were above the server and had a "me first" attitude. If Guldar goes around and mouths off to things (PDKs, demons, other characters) I...as a player...am going to find that as hilarious and may wind up sending you a "lol" via tell.

The whole point here is that everyone stays within their head and try not to be bigger than the game.

[DM Richard (Retired)]

Two quick lines from the general rules of our server:

GENERAL RULES:

The main rule here is to have fun, but not at the expense of others.

No ridiculousness of any sort will be tolerated here.

While playing in character is great, if you create a character who will make the server an unenjoyable place to play do not expect the excuse "This is how my character would act." to make things acceptable.

There are consequences for actions even if they are role-played. Someone burning the town of Isinhold would be arrested and fined at a minimum and maybe executed if Callen decided if best.

If the PLAYER is one of those that think making other people miserable is fun, or if he/she only seems to cause trouble they will be banned.

Remember to role-play but also remember just because it is IC doesn't mean it wont have consequences. Some very good role-players have gotten upset before and thought they were being punished because their character was punished. Others never understood that "I'm evil." or "He was evil and I'm good." is not enough to justify actions that break our rules.

Edit: Thanks Shadowcatjen for thinking of the server as a whole!

[ShadowCatJen]

The players in the example felt that they were above the server and had a "me first" attitude.

Yes! That's pretty much what I've been trying to say, just in too many words, I guess.

Moulinous, I'm not saying that you should completely ignore the way you have Guldar behave. Just as mrindustrialpants said if I saw that in game I'd probably be laughing right along with him cause it would be so Guldar. Getting into disagreements is fine, as you said, that's part of the RP.

What wouldn't be fine is if Guldar not only didn't listen to the elf, but decided he hated the guy so much that he was going to get into a fight with him. Then afterwords proceed to go into a long sobbing diatribe of why he hated elves, how elves ruined his life, and he was so depressed about it all that he was going to kill himself. To which others would have to try and stop him and, thus, stopping dead whatever DM quest there was planned.

The situation no longer a "we", it becomes an "I". This is not constructive to a multiplayer environment.

Injection about the lag bit. Yes, if you decide to go out there then it is your choice. Just don't go complaining and whining every time it happens when you were completely aware of it and beg the DMs to be raised. You ran the risk and you ended up on the short end of the stick, so shrug, hit that respawn button, and move on.

Thanks Shadowcatjen for thinking of the server as a whole!

Welcome. That's all I'm trying to do here.

[DM the Usurper]

Well said, all of you. Use your heads is what it comes down to ....or I'll eatcha.

[MTGPackFoils]

One thing I would like to add...

There are players who have had FRC being their first NWN online gaming experience. Others are still relatively new to the NWNMMO experience. Not saying we should cater to n00bs only, but a first impression is really important for these players.

...of course the more of them that stay means less room for us...

...hmm...guess I'll go sharpen my swords...

;D

[Spooks]

Oh the times I've had chars assasinated because I didn't run a few seconds earlier, because I was trying to keep the RP. ^_^ OOC I knew if I didn't run while they typed, I'd die.

[Dachshund]

*bump*

[quendros]

I think the bigger picture is that most folks come here to have fun! I know personally i use FRC as stress relief and do not like OOC issues with *any* players!

I would rather end the relationship both IG and OOC than not have fun and enjoy my interaction with my fellow players.

Now this does not mean i don't enjoy and expect confrontation and conflict IG but as Jen and many others have stated it has to be in the rules and I would expect anything rp'ed like *burning down the guardhouse* would have DM approval before it was done and if not there would be some harsh penalty for the player that initiated this non-sanctioned plot line

[ShadowCatJen]

The biggest overriding OOC consideration is that we are all here to have fun. And once things become Not Fun then playing this game has lost it's purpose.