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Post by renegadeghost on Mar 6, 2007 20:44:20 GMT -5
The concept of vigilantism: what alignment is it?
I suppose it could probably be "good", because the idea is to promote the greater good by eliminating evil. On the other hand, isn't it evil to kill based solely on one's own beliefs?
Even more complicated, lawful or chaotic? Clearly it's outside the law. In fact, it directly opposes the law (in the real world at least, don't know about FR). Thinking of classics like Spiderman or Robin Hood, certainly seems "chaotic" to me. On the other hand, the god Hoar is Lawful Neutral, and LN is also called "Judge". I guess vigilantism could be considered following one's personal code. But still, how can a criminal be lawful?
If it depends on the particular case, I think the best representation of vigilantism is the "Boondock Saints" (seen it? you should). In any case, discuss...
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Driderman
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Post by Driderman on Mar 6, 2007 21:17:06 GMT -5
Acting outside the law is well, non-lawful at least. Of course, some people's views on what constitutes law may deviate from what the local government feels is law. Ranan for example. Or well so I've heard ![;)](//storage.proboards.com/forum/images/smiley/wink.png) But vigilantism will never, as far as I see it, be considered acting 'lawful'. And although I don't know the first thing about Hoar, I bet his dogma doesn't say anything about punishing offenders without a fair and honest trial
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Post by catmage on Mar 6, 2007 21:37:46 GMT -5
Being Lawful doesn't always mean obeying the law. Think along the lines of the Xanathar, who run a criminal organization based on murder for hire, slaving, and extortion. A good number of their important members are LE, including the head of the slaving branch. The group runs out of Waterdeep, which, unless I missed reading, doesn't permit such acts. If the vigilante is operating in a mindset that involves preserving their vision of "justice", they might possibly be lawful, though it's iffy.
Hoar's Dogma: Uphold true and fitting justice and maintain the spirit of the law, not the letter of the law. Fitting recompense will always accrue for one's actions. Violence will meet violence and evil pay back evil, but good will also come to those who do good. Walk the line of the Doombringer's teachings, seeking retribution, but do not fall into the trap of pursuing evil acts for evil's sake, for that way is seductive and leads only to one's downfall. Vengeance must be sought for all injustices, and all punishments must fit the crime. Revenge is sweetest when sharpened with irony. All attacks must be avenged. Those who do not respond to attacks against their person or that which they hold dear only invite future attacks. (Faith's and Pantheons, page 98)
Note the "Spirit of the law, not the letter".
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Post by Munroe on Mar 6, 2007 21:42:09 GMT -5
And although I don't know the first thing about Hoar, I bet his dogma doesn't say anything about punishing offenders without a fair and honest trial Then you don't know the first thing about Hoar. Hoar worshippers believe in following a strict code. That strict code is Hoar's dogma, not the law of the land. I'll post more on Hoar so you can know more about him soon.
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Post by catmage on Mar 6, 2007 22:54:53 GMT -5
I'll do that, since you don't always care for that, bt do it anyway because you're helpful*Grumbles* Darn helpful Munroe with his vampires....
HOAR (AKA The Doombringer, Lord of Three Thunders) Demigod, faerunian pantheon Symbol: Black gloved hand holding a coin with a two faced head Home Plane: The Barrens of Doom and Despair Alignment: Lawful Neutral Portfolio: Revenge, retribution, poetic justice Worshippers: Assassins, fighters, rogues, seekers of retribution Cleric Alignments: LE, LN, LG Domains: Fate, Law, Retribution, Travel (Note that only one domain is in NWN, perhaps DMs could suggest subs?) Favored Weapon: Retribution's Sting [javelin](spear?)
Hoar is the vengeful deity of retribution invoked by those who seek to repay an eye for an eye. He is a moody deity, prone to violence and with a penchant toward bitter humor. Since the Time of Troubles, the Doombringer has been consumed with bringing about the downfall of Anhur, the Mulhorandi deity of war, and to a lesser extent the pantheon that spawned him.
Aside from a handful of temples, the church of Hoar is composed primarily of itinerant wanderers who travel from town to town agreeing to pray for Hoar's vengeance for some attack in exchange for a small fee. Charlatans recieve a fitting punishment at Hoar's hand. Hoar's clergy also seek out victims of injustice, hear their stories, evaluate the veracity of their accounts, and track down the perpetrators in order to inflict a fitting form of punishment. No injustice is too large or small for revenge to be sought and a fitting punishment to be meted out, earning the church of Hoar the ire of town watches and Tyrists alike and the adulation of the downtrodden.
Cleric of Hoar pray for their spells at midnight, when the bells toll for those deserving of fitting justice. Clerics of Hoar are encouraged to celebrate the anniversary of the most fitting and sweetest acts of revenge. Silent or thunderous praises(as appropriate) must be given to Hoar each and every time some form of vengeance is exacted. In addition, the Church of Hoar observes two official holy days. on 11th Eleint, the Penultimate Thunder is celebrated with feasts of game, bread, fruits, and mead, marking the defeat of the Untheric war god Ramman. On 11th Marpenoth, the impending Doom is observed with daylong ceremonies of rumbling drums, vigirous oaths, and exhausting acts of purification. It celebrates justices yet to be meted out, revenges yet to be carried through with, and good deeds that call to the celebrants to be remembered. Many clerics multiclass as assassins, fighters, or rogues.
Almost forgot, from Faiths and Pantheons pages 97-98
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Post by Munroe on Mar 6, 2007 23:17:52 GMT -5
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Post by Teneas on Mar 7, 2007 7:46:30 GMT -5
Batman: Chaotic Superman: Lawful Good
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Panros
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Post by Panros on Mar 7, 2007 8:33:04 GMT -5
Batman: Chaotic Superman: Lawful Good No, Batman is Lawful Good. He does not kill. He lives by codes. He is a scoundrel, but he still seeks lawful justice. It's why the Joker keeps on escaping from jail.
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Post by Laurk on Mar 7, 2007 12:37:49 GMT -5
At least one type of Choatic good Vigilanti is the type who believes that the ends justify the means. The Punisher would be the example here. Someone who is willing to put honor or deceny aside in order to kill the baddies and strive for the greater good. Torture info from a bad guy if it means saving the lives of innocents. Kill from behind, or from hiding, or using deception. To this kind of vigilanti, those who practice honor and fight openly are selfish and more concerned with their own dignity than the lives of those they mean to protect. Because if those who protect the weak die, who then will protect the weak? Do a little evil, to accomplish a lot of good.
When good people are outnumbered or unable to act, such as when the government is corrupt or when behind enemy lines. These types of vigilanti's use unfair advantage to tip the odds in their favor.
The dividing line between choatic good and chaotic neutral in this instance is; How much proof do they require before they assume guilt and start killing? Why are they fighting? Do they take pleasure from it? And... are they slowly slipping into a strange paranoid maddness where they will soon begin to see everyone as an evil doer! Bwahahaha!
Laurk
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Post by Teneas on Mar 7, 2007 14:15:05 GMT -5
Batman: Chaotic Superman: Lawful Good No, Batman is Lawful Good. He does not kill. He lives by codes. He is a scoundrel, but he still seeks lawful justice. It's why the Joker keeps on escaping from jail. Yeah,but he doesnt abide by any laws. Even Chaotic's have some code to live by. He just simply wont kill em. He is not opposed to some torture though.
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Post by Booze Hound on Mar 7, 2007 14:26:42 GMT -5
I'd give Batman the NG alignment, he stays within the laws hen he can, but aint afraid to take the torture stick to someone for info.
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Post by ShadowCatJen on Mar 7, 2007 14:35:57 GMT -5
I'd give Batman the NG alignment, he stays within the laws hen he can, but aint afraid to take the torture stick to someone for info. Dang it, you said it before I could... Neutral Good is where I would place Bats and by going on that I would say that any vigilante would more then likely have some neutral aspect to them. A Neutral Good would do what he needed to in order to see "justice" or "good" done. A Lawful Neutral will see to it that the code of either justice or vengeance is held up no matter what the cost. I think where the confusion point comes in with vigilante-ism is that not all vigilantes work under the same code. If we take comic book equivalents... The Punisher and Batman are both considered vigilantes, but since the Punisher will take lives but Batman won't they come at a bit of an impasse. They both still get the job done, but through slightly different means. EDIT: Really good interesting question, btw! ^_^
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Post by Nevajas on Mar 8, 2007 14:44:03 GMT -5
If it depends on the particular case, I think the best representation of vigilantism is the "Boondock Saints" (seen it? you should). In any case, discuss... Interesting point on that movie. Remember the line in there "the laws of God are higher than the laws of man?" (I'm going to avoid giving it on context for those of you who haven't seen it 'cuz you all should.) The brothers in that movie honestly believed they were supporting God's will and His laws. Isn't that strict adherence to a higher calling a lawful act? Personally I would call them lawful neutral.
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Post by Manshin on Mar 9, 2007 17:51:58 GMT -5
I think lawful has a lot more to do with a persons personal dicipline and beliefs than it does the actual "laws of the land." In the right situation, a lawful good character could easily be a vigilanti. Someone who is lawful, but lives in a time of Tyrannical rule, could easily defy the law of the land to uphold the "true" law as he saw it.
My idea of a "lawful good" character would be someone who follows a set of codes, or laws as a matter of dedication or faith. This could be the laws of a country, the laws of a god, or the laws of a code of conduct or honor. Even if he knows that a goal would be more easily accomplished by bending or breaking these rules, he will refuse to do so on principal. He will not compromise his own ethics, or those of his god, no matter the cost.
Neutral good would probably have a similar outlook, but would be less diciplined or maybe less unyeilding. This type of person would bend or break the rules if the situation demands it, or the cost to refuse was to high to stick to his beliefs.
Chaotic good would be the type of person who does what the situation demands, and doesnt allow his own feelings or sense of honor to get in the way of what must be done. Although in some instances, this could easily become chaotic neutral, I think of a true Chaotic good vigilanti as being willing to sacrifice his own honor and dignity to do what must be done for the good of others.
The differance between chaotic good and chaotic neutral is that the neutral character will ignore his own ethics to do what needs to be done, because he doesnt have any to begin with, for him, stabbing someone in the back rather than risking a battle just makes perfect sense. The Choatic good character does so because he is unwilling to risk evil winning.
Manshin
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Post by moulinous on Mar 9, 2007 18:12:39 GMT -5
Someone like Captain America i see as very Lawful Good but just because you are a certain alignment does not mean you must always be that way. The Cap did not take lives, it was against his personal code, yet in a comic book he took a terrorist life because he had to...this was not a lawful act. In reality we are all made of a general ethos, my personal one in real life would be neutral good most likely. Sometimes though i am strict lawful and sometimes i am as chaotic as they come....remember, it is a guideline and trying to narrow it down to one all time is like trying to slip a hexagon into a octagon surrounded by a diamond on a square field if you catch my meaning...
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Post by quendros on Mar 10, 2007 10:20:06 GMT -5
Catmage's comments on LE bring up an intresting point.
Obviously a LE character isn't thought of as a law abiding citizen but they do believe in a strict rule base depending on what organization/gov't holds power. For instance, a Lawful Evil Tyrannt usurps the throne in Corymr and declares marshal law. There is a defined chain of command in LE Gov't that are followed meticulously out of fear of punishment/death not sense of honor/duty/loyalty. His troops aren't raping, pillaging or destroying people/property at their whim, they would have to be ordered to do so otherwise they themselves would face severe punishment or even death. On the other side, people under marshal law aren't killed just for walking down the street and making eye contact with one such solider (unlike what would happen say with a CE Demon who kills on a whim with no thought to any consequenses) but if they break any of the rules in regards to marshal law the reprucusions are swift and usually terrible. So i Beleive the diffrence between LG and LE is more that justice/liberty does not exist in a LE regime but "laws/rules" are quite prominent.
In regards to the to the Xanthar example, they may not follow the laws of the land but the do follow the strict rules/code of the slaver organization again facing severe punishment of death if they break their chain of command. So IMHO Lawful Evil is all about following laws and rules...i mean Lawful is Lawful. That's why alignment is two parts...Lawful/Choatic/Neutral with Good/Evil/Neutral. Just my two cents.
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Post by tleilaxughola on Mar 13, 2007 10:27:11 GMT -5
Being lawful doesn't mean you follow THE law...it means you follow A law. Your own is just fine. Would a paladin follow the laws in an evil society? Or feel at all restrained in freeing oppressed peasants? And, on the topic of Batman, well... ![](http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y190/Sarlith/lawfulGood2.jpg)
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Post by Teneas on Mar 13, 2007 11:38:45 GMT -5
I knew something was out there like that. Heh...I love the Bat.
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