We are mortal. (Thoughts on injuries.)

[sneakingyoda]

We’ve all been there. It’s the heat of the battle, you got three bugbears on your left, two smelly looking green guys on your right and something really ugly and slimy that smells something like cashews and pork soda sneaking up on you from behind. Your doing bad. Real bad. In fact you think that perhaps you may be taking a trip to see the wonderful foggy vistas of the spirit world, and that perhaps some crazy healer chick in Isinhold (who you’re sure stalks you everywhere, you just haven’t had time to prove it yet) might find your body and drag you across the land to raise you, and save you from eternity as a cold dead corpse.

But Tymora is on your side. As you fling about your sword/axe/rubberchicken (whatever) you suddenly feel much better! You vanquish the beasts before you and turn to your friend who stands next to you with a big ol’ grin. That’s right, your friend tumbled out of the way of the pork soda monster (www.watleyreview.com/2006/032806-2.html) , and ducked a few blows from the smelly green guys, and managed to avoid the swipes of the bugbears all just so he could wrap a bandage about your leg and save you from a terrible death. In one, maybe two rounds. (a round is 6 seconds long- at least in old school it is.)

We all do it. We’ve all had to do it. And rightfully so, you can’t work as a successful group unless you stay alive. The only way to heal another party member (for most of the mere mortals in this realm) is to purchase and use Healingkits. For the sake of rp, these moments of true heroic and –magical- healing are often overlooked. Best not to address the idea that a moment ago your guts were nearly spilling over the floor. Lets not think about by the time you get back to town you would be no better than a walking mummy. Why?

Because it kills the enjoyment. (to an extent) If we all had to limp around and look like mummies every time we traveled- and came back maimed, then it would only be a matter of time before everyone became agoraphobic. (dictionary.reference.com/browse/Agoraphobic).

But.

But.

Let us not ignore the matter in entirely. For example: There are times when I see random person B strolling into town with “NEAR DEATH” floating above their head. This, to me, means that they might have a bit of brain showing through their cracked skull (and therefore Hexer might be lingering somewhere near by for a midday snack.) (… and rightfully so). Or perhaps they have a really badly broken limb, or have been run through. Blood stains- perhaps- or pale and shaking from poison which is in the advanced stages.

What I do not picture, my friends, is someone being able to walk to the innkeeper with a few bruises. Your nearly dead man! This is your time to shine with the pains of being mortal. Limp. Shuffle. Moan! (Suggestion for good a good moaning sound: MmmMRrRRhhhhahaaanaaannnnnnngh. The gh makes on the end makes it a winner.)

For the most part I see my fair share of those who do role-play their injuries if they are not in the heat of battle. It happens. But (and lets be fair here) I have witnessed even the best of roleplayers ignoring their injuries when I thought there would be time to insert a little more “gee, I’m mortal” flavor into it.

Now, lets not stray into the realm of melodrama. Not looking for a bunch of whiney injured people every time I turn around. What I’m attempted to do (light heartedly) is to remind people that there is a large opportunity for roleplay in the aspect that adventuring is dangerous, and we get hurt while doing it.

As an example, Yulena gets hurt –all- the time. Now, I can say, safely, about half the time I ignore the wounds of battle for a quick heal because it kills the story to be near death every five minuets. But, every once and a while, I don’t let that bandaid stick as nicely as the game portrays. Yulena was afforded a very painful lesson in healing by Lyria, as she was assisted and treated to have bits of dirt removed from a leg wound. The treatment was painful, and even though Yulena was willing- she had to be pinned down so she wouldn’t reflexively jerk her leg and injure herself further. Lyria could have just laid her hands on the wound and “healed” it. But instead we got an interesting display of healer knowledge, Lyria showing us why she’s good at what she does. (Not to mention the implied experience Yule learned; don’t let the axe hack you up!)

So.

In short- after this very long post- I hope that this got your brain juices flowing for a little bit of discussion. Players and Dm’s alike. Here are my questions on the table. (and to be clear, I don’t think anything needs to be fixed with the healing system. Just want to call to a bit of rp awareness.)

1. What do –you- picture when one player uses a healkit on another in the middle of the battle? is it a potion you toss to them?(this is what happens in Tabletop, but not so much in NWN because of time issues.) How do you deal it with?

2. How much rp of an injury is too much?

3. How much rp of an injury is too little?

Enquiring minds want to know! ;D ;D

[Xerah]

Short answer, it all depends.

You've touched on most of it, use your injuries when it furthers the story, adds need drama/thrill. Having someone react to every single loss of HP is a bit extreme.

I never react to players who are injured and it bothers me slightly when people react to my injuries. You don't really know what happened to that person to get there so it's really a stretch to run over to them saying "Oh, you're bleeding, let me fix that".

To me, HP isn't about how much blood you can loose and still stand, it's about how lucky you are, i.e. the strength of your armour, your fatigue, your general luck in battle (slipped on the stone floor!), and of course, how much you can withstand physically. It don't find it believable that every loss of HP is a broken bone or a cut etc. it's more likely that you're getting tired (and more likely not to dodge a fatal blow) or your armour is getting weak (and more likely to be pierced). I know sometimes you do get hurt and start bleeding but these instances should be rare and used to further a story, otherwise the town would be full of horribly scared people within days of arriving.

Directly reacting to someone "floaty status" is probably just as metagamey as reacting to someone's floaty name.

[Talus]

I tend to only react when it says "badly wounded" or "near death". I am fairly certain your wounds would be noticeable to those around you. Also I think if not in the heat of battle you should be RPing being wounded at those points. Not sitting around chatting or selling your loot.

[Quadhund/Greenhouse]

Before this thread degrades into what HP really means (as has been discussed before) this issue has been touched on in previous posts. But you do bring up a good point. How does a healkit work mid combat?

Out of combat, you auto 20 and that seems to me like spending time setting a bone and then securing it. In combat, it isnt auto 20. Maybe it is pulling an arrow out of your backside as you withdraw some, and then staunching the wound? Or perhaps it is removing some of the pork soda from your skin cause we all know pork soda burns (what the hells is pork soda?)?

My easiest suggestion is that, in PnP, healkits do not exist. The reason being is there is no way to recover HP mid combat outside of magical means. Thus, healing kits must be magical (or have some magical aspect to them) because you recover hit points without resting.

I generally rate my injuries around this (and this is just my own personal preference).
Barely Injured - Sweating ... perhaps a papercut
Injured - bruises, sprains, cut my finger with a paring knife
Badly injured - bloody nose, multiple injuries, eye swelling shut
Near death - barely comprehensible after adrenaline wears out, broken limbs, deep wounds (though able to be staunched), collapsing to the ground

My opinion is that mortal wounds are received when you fall between 0 and -9. The reason being, is because there is a high chance that if you are not treated you will die. So my opinion is that holding your guts in your hands ... well you won't be conscious for long and will surely die if untreated.

What's too much and what's too little? Too much is when it detracts from the roleplay. Too little is when you act like you are invincible.

[HeatherRae]

talus said:

I tend to only react when it says "badly wounded" or "near death". I am fairly certain your wounds would be noticeable to those around you. Also I think if not in the heat of battle you should be RPing being wounded at those points. Not sitting around chatting or selling your loot.

Exactly, because at that point, the adrenaline and endorphins should have worn off and you should be in a lot of *pain*.

I can't tell you how jarring it is to see half-dead people running around everywhere. Drives my Cleric nuts, and I'm of the opinion that if you're at Badly wounded or Near Death, my cleric is going to notice that you're bleeding all over the floor.

Just my $0.02

[Xerah]

heatherrae said:

I'm of the opinion that if you're at Badly wounded or Near Death, my cleric is going to notice that you're bleeding all over the floor.

How do you know they're bleeding? Perhaps they've been hurt with negative energy, perhaps they've been burnt under their clothing, perhaps they've been bludgeoned. None of those things would necessary show blood, but by having your character say "You're bleeding all over the place" you're forcing someone into a RP avenue that perhaps they didn't wish to happen.

[Laurk]

Well, I disagree. Barley injured should be concealable or unoticable. You are simply a bit winded, but fine. Injured should look like you are fatigued and look a little battered, but no actual cuts or blood (or very little) Badly wounded means a few shallow cuts, fatigued, bruised... a limp, favoring an arm. At this point, your defense is suffering because your are getting exhaused... those parries and dodges are getting harder to time.. your limbs are heavy. Near Death: Now you have a real injury. A stab wound, a cut muscle... a dizzying head wound. At this point, your defense is down. You are vunerable, either too injured, or too tired to defend yourself properly. The next attacks are very likley to pierce your defense and strike a mortal wound.

I play a healer, and when I see someone with the "injured" icon, I will go ask if I can heal them. To me, unless you emote that you are trying to conceal your wound, it should be noticable. If you "do" emote that, I will say "//ignore that" and pretend I didnt see anything odd.

To me, healing magic cures wounds and erases fatigue without overmuch need of assessing injury... and healing kits are magical. There really is no way to logically consider them mundane. I RP them as a topical salve with the same properties as a healing potion. It can be applied quickly and easily and works instantly. I always RP Abby as mixing in her own "special" recipe to the healing kits to explain her exceptionally high healing skill, and why they heal more than someone else using the same kit.

Another thing related, I once saw Talus Deva do something remarkable. He got diseased... but didnt use a healing kit on himself. Instead, he acted like there was nothing wrong. Why? Because he hadnt taken ability point damage yet. Realisticly, how would you know if you had contracted a disease if you hadnt manifested symptoms yet? I highly encourage players to do this. When I play Abby, if one of my party members is hit by a monster which she knows spreads disease from experiance (or a good lore check), a healing check (DC 24) lets Abby determine if that person is diseased or not. If I fail, then I say: "Well, i-it looks alright to me." Even though their HP have turned brown and we can all see OOC that they are diseased. Once the player takes ability damage, THEN, it becomes apparent. If I dont detect it, I wont try to cure it "just in case" because I RP differant disease's having differant antitoxens which she has in her kit. Using all of them to nail the disease "just in case" seems unrealistic.

Laurk

[ShadowCatJen]

Certainly agree with you on many, many levels, Sneak. You've already said a good deal of what I would have commented on the subject. I would only say two things extra.

Healing while in combat is one of those things where you have to overlook how it might play In Character due to OOC reasons. NWN is a combat heavy system and battles happen fast and furious. In PnP you take your time, have nice moments in the middle of combat to roleplay something out (i.e. like the DM describing exactly how the axe cleaved into your character's leg), and pain and dying can be far more permanent. NWN does not give you that because of the "arcade" style in combat.

Second, reading the floaty words of "near death" may be a little metagamish, but in the vien of wanting the players on FRC to pay attention to certain roleplaying aspects other players will react to those words to set an example. If I can make a player who's PC is listed at "badly wounded" actually roleplay out that he is indeed badly wounded then the general quality of that persons roleplay -and- of the server in general will go up. I'd rather see that happen instead of someone going by at "near death" three times to buy bottles of milk from Kale and heal themselves with it.

sneakingyoda said:

1. What do –you- picture when one player uses a healkit on another in the middle of the battle? is it a potion you toss to them?(this is what happens in Tabletop, but not so much in NWN because of time issues.) How do you deal it with?

I usually just conveniently overlook that it happens at all during combat. Sort of like all the healing that was done happened after the battle was finished. That or my PC happened to have some healing device (like a wand or something) and used that during combat and not a healing kit. It's a little awkward in a mechanics sense, but easier to deal with when you have time constraints.

2. How much rp of an injury is too much?

When it becomes a hindrance to the rest of the party and you're still in the middle of the dungeon trying to survive and get out then it's being too much. If it's after your characters are in a safe area and the injury becomes the be-all-end-all reason for your RP (where the PC's injury is all they talk about) for a full real life week then it's become too much.

3. How much rp of an injury is too little?

When your PC has had the need for someone to use a raise scroll on them and the first thing your PC says when they get back to town is "What place do we hunt now?" -then- you're RPing any sort of injuries too little... not at all even. Or if your character gets really really walloped by that giant to where one hit takes you to near death and all you RP is that you feel a crink in your neck. That would be too little, even with a high Con.

[Savage]

I usually think of it like this. Barely injured is a bruise a sore muscle something like that, uncomfortable but forgettable. Injured is a scrape, scratch or cut that needs to be tended to eventually and can be mostly ignored right now. Badly wounded is broken arm, broken rib, bleeding cut. I have begun recently to begin to role play only these types of injuries or worse and I try to heal before I reach them. When I do reach them I have begun using a bandage as a temporary fix for them that only true rest can heal. So for me a healer’s kit at badly wounded is something that allows me repair and move on. So if it’s a broken arm the kit is a split ant keeps the pain in check and the arm useable. If it’s a broken rib the kit is like a pain killer that lets me continue the task until true rest and time can heal it. Now for near death I usually take a few moments if it can safely be done and RP some sort of semi magical healing. *Places a bandage on a open wound the magical herbs and concoctions closing the wound*

I consider almost all in combat healing at a mechanic of the game and not something truly IC. If I am fighting and get Near Death and someone behind me slaps a bandage on me it doesn’t have to be role played as a bandage at all. One time I had someone behind me healing me as I hacked my way through a dungeon. We role played like the healing kits where not healing at all instead it was the other person using their sword to block blows that would have normally hit me.

One time I was fine but my shield was “Badly Injured” and I use the cloth from a bandage kit to fix a broken strap. There simply isn’t time to properly role play combat. So when it comes to healing combat damage during combat for me its mostly OC.

I agree that injuries can be great RP. Yesterday Hoot had to carry someone back to town because a bear bit her leg very hard. Even though after a single healers kit the person was uninjured. We had fun role playing the wound and subsequest wound care and so on.

[heimdall]

frc.proboards37.com/index.cgi?board=roleplayideas&action=display&thread=1157411802

There's a link to a very similar discussion that came up several months ago.

I think Greenhouse gave the best answer to the question already though.

What's too much and what's too little? Too much is when it detracts from the roleplay. Too little is when you act like you are invincible.

[tskfrc58]

If your near death should be a 6 real-time week minimum of not leaving the local inn, to simulate broken bones having to heal, assuming, of course, you can afford 6 weeks worth of inn keys. If you are killed, start rolling a new character. oh, and remove ALL healing potions, spells, and effects from all items,classes,and stores. Hardcore rules, baby!

[sneakingyoda]

tskfrc58 said:

If your near death should be a 6 real-time week minimum of not leaving the local inn, to simulate broken bones having to heal, assuming, of course, you can afford 6 weeks worth of inn keys. If you are killed, start rolling a new character. oh, and remove ALL healing potions, spells, and effects from all items,classes,and stores. Hardcore rules, baby!

O.o

[HeatherRae]

tskfrc58 said:

If your near death should be a 6 real-time week minimum of not leaving the local inn, to simulate broken bones having to heal, assuming, of course, you can afford 6 weeks worth of inn keys. If you are killed, start rolling a new character. oh, and remove ALL healing potions, spells, and effects from all items,classes,and stores. Hardcore rules, baby!

Uh...yeah...

That sort of would remove the Cleric class, as a major part of what they do is healing.

[tskfrc58]

Their gods have forsaken them. They should pray harder. In fact:

Whenever they need a healing spell, they should have to e-mail a picture of their player kneeling and praying, holding up a reasonable facsimile of their god's holy symbol, to one of the DM team, who will then screen the photo for acceptablity, taste, and god-worthiness, before deciding on if the spell should be granted.

[HeatherRae]

tskfrc58 said:

Their gods have forsaken them. They should pray harder. In fact:

Whenever they need a healing spell, they should have to e-mail a picture of their player kneeling and praying, holding up a reasonable facsimile of their god's holy symbol, to one of the DM team, who will then screen the photo for acceptablity, taste, and god-worthiness, before deciding on if the spell should be granted.

You're a very special person.

Besides, this would make an inordinate amount of work for DMs that would just be ridiculous.

[tskfrc58]

One needs to learn to discern between cynicism, humor, and seriousness.

[Munroe]

I just want to say.... My character's name is Lydia, not Lyria. :-P

As for healing kits and their use in combat, I do see healing kits used in combat as being a sloppy half-assed job because you are rolling a d20+heal to see how you do. The time I spent RPing cleaning and wrapping Yulena's wound is because I was taking 20 on that healing check. My character has bard and cleric levels so her divine healing spells actually wouldn't have been powerful enough to fully heal Yulena. I did cast a Cure Minor Wounds on Yulena at the end because I think of healing kits as mundane items (gauze, salves and smelling salts) and I tend to think that healing kits have the potential to leave scars whereas divine healing doesn't leave a scar. So once she was mostly patched up with mundane healing, the divine healing on the end was to prevent scarring.

I used a healing kit in battle last night on Hoot when he fell unconscious fighting undead. To my interpretation that was me running in and using smelling salts on him to get him back conscious. D&D doesn't have Healing Kits, but it does have a means for a character to make a Heal check on an unconscious character to stabilize the character so it doesn't die. There is, has pointed out, no mundane means to recover hitpoints in D&D other than bedrest, however.

I suppose it could be said that healing kits have some magical healing balms in them but their application limits their effectiveness.

The main reason I usually consider healing kits as mundane is because they require a check, but I could also consider them magical but requiring a skilled hand to apply. They're called healing kits and I usually think of them as that: A kit contining gauze, salves and balms, and smelling salts. It's not too much of a stretch to think that the salves and balms have some magical properties. If you just equate them to a potion, you take away any necessity of skill for their use, and they do require that the character trains in a skill to be used more effectively.

I like roleplaying bandaging people up. Another thing that is overlooked by clerics and others with healing spells is that healing spells require the spellcaster to touch the person being healed. They are spells delivered by touch. So unless a character wants to be healed, any character should be given the opportunity to avoid being touched by a healing spell. Most people don't like it when other people, especially strangers, come up to them and start trying to deliver touch spells. A creature that doesn't want to be touched should have the same opportunity to avoid a melee touch attack as any undead does when you cast a Cure spell on it.

One thing that bugs me about Touch spells in NWN: Touch spells don't hold their charge until discharged in NWN like they are supposed to. You get one chance to hit the target and if you miss the melee touch attack, the spell is spent. The charge should last until you hit the target, touch something else, or discharge the spell.

Oils are generally not in NWN but they work similar to potions except applied on the exterior of objects. An Oil of Cure Light Wounds would work exactly as Cure Light Wounds but would be applied topically instead of internally. Ideally, we could be able to buy Oils of Cure Light Wounds to use on colleagues, or even use potions on party members instead of self-only.

[SlothfulCat]

I've made oils like that for other servers Munroe, refered to them as "Dwarven Healing Salves" after seeing the like on Sojourney.

I myself assume healing kits themselves have some magical component; this is why they cost more than potions and have +1,+3,+6 and +10 bonuses to them the way you can get various levels of cure potions.

Essentially though, in PnP you can RP mid combat using your round to jump on your fallen buddy and pour a potion down his throan or dump those oils onto his wound... seems to me the NWN healingkit is to make up for the lack of that mechanic.

That said, for your typical healing kit: 1d20+1 HP in combat when you've no skill isnt exactly reliable compared to a 2d8+3 or 3d8+5 potion that you can get for less. The real kicker is that in combat nothing compares to clerical healing, where as once you are out of combat and can take 20's on healing kits they're going to be more handy so the powerful spells can be saved. Just seems to me looking at them it kind of makes sense with the way they work and the way I've discribed, and Munroe has discribed.

Healing Kits: The Great Axe of Healing; unrealiable base effect unless you can get that 20!

Potions: The Greatsword of Healing; reliable average with all those dice being rolled

Clerics with Spells: No replacing them... nope.

As far as injuries... I think walking into town Near-Death is surrendering control of the RP of that wound if you dont emote it. You are as described; Near Death.

Less wounded than that though... It might be clear youre hurting bad but theres alot of room for you to RP that. Myself I tend to RP Aria as suffering from the impact of blows on her mithral shirt... it can stop those arrows from going in, but she's still going to feel them hit!

However, not emoting when you walk into a crowd of PCs wounded is like not putting anything in your description box... youre asking to get whatever soemoen decides to give you to describe what they think they're seeing.

[soulfien]

Sounding a lot like dragonlance now!

Yeah, Barely injured is nothing more than a very shallow cut or a bruise- something you can shrug off as long as you don't have an aversion to seeing your own blood.

Injured is a deep cut- a bad bruise- somehting that actually hurts, but doesn't actually cripple you- a bad hit to the head that makes you see stars but is easily shaken off.

Badly Wounded- A concussion. A cut deep into the muscle. A bone bruising hammer strike. Something that causes you to look at the wound and imagine how much that's going to hurt in the morning. You know you have to keep on fighting because soon the muscles will begin to tighten up and you won't be able to defend yourself after that.

Near Death- Compound fractures. Exposed bone. A sword strike that penatrated all the way through your skin and muscle to nearly miss the organs underneath. You're losing blood fast. A severe concussion that's so bad, you wonder how much longer you can remain consious. Fighting through the intense pain of a hundred wounds, you grit your teeth and prepare to meet the great beyond.

Okay this thread has been done to death now

[Manshin]

Deep mucle cuts make you completely unable to function... I dont care what sort of "pain tollerance" you "imagine" you have. Its a simple fact that if the rope is broken, you cant hoist the sail. Please dont RP Deep Muscle Cuts at "badly wounded" that is unless you believe that once you reach badly wounded, your character can no longer fight and can probably barley function.

What Soulfien describes as "Near Death" I would consider to be when you are from 0 to -9. If you have a bad compound fracture, your not even going to be drinking a healing potion because your either going to be on the ground screaming or in a shock induced daze. You sure is hell wont be sword fighting.