The Shadow Weave

[Dachshund]

Unless someone has been a part of a DM run plot on FRC in which in depth knowledge about the Shadow Weave was shared by a practitioner of it or shared by a cleric of Shar (highly unlikely), he/she does not know it exists.

[Slaiv]

Which brings up a question:

Is it assumed people know that Shar followers use the "Shadow Weave"

and..

What spells -exactly- should not be used by Non-followers of Shar?

[EDM Entori]

well the shadow weave is... known to sharans.. but its not like every sharan can use it, or that its limited to her followers.. while she could limited it.. I'm not too sure where it stands.. but shadow sheild, and shadow summonings along with shades.. I would assume to be shadow spells..

[EDM Entori]

sorry neverrelized anyone posted after my last.. given the time and date of FRC the city of shade has reappeared in the aurauch and everwhere between the dales to the spine to everseka has felt battle with the pharieum as well as the shadowvar.. Especially cormyr... However this has yet to be adopted by FRC, maybe a dm plot to think of.. And yes entori wishes to search out high magic... but he does have a 40 something lor eplus legend lore, I would think he has a idea.. given the Dm events hes been through he knows of the existance.. now I did have a big rant back in my early days in FRC and dachound put the smack down on me for it.. it was an oracle moment.. I was just curious to where it stood.. and thank you all for the comments its all very interesting..

don

[EDM Neo]

entori said:

I'm not too sure where it stands.. but shadow sheild, and shadow summonings along with shades.. I would assume to be shadow spells..

As was already mentioned previous times before... those are spells of the school of illusion, that make use of the normal weave, not the shadow weave. They are shadow spells in name alone.

As for whether or not you'd know anything about the shadow weave? That's up to a DM to decide, I suppose. *Shrugs*

[Munroe]

The Shadow Weave doesn't allow any spells with a certain descriptor (Light), but otherwise it has the same kinds of spells as the Weave.

A person can use the Weave to cast Magic Missile or a person can use the Shadow Weave to cast Magic Missile, for example. However, the same person cannot use The Weave and The Shadow Weave to cast Magic Missile as using the Shadow Weave cuts a caster off entirely from using the Weave.

That having been said, I doubt most Sharrans use the Shadow Weave as that could certainly raise suspicions among the deities of Magic. I would go so far as to say most Sharran clerics probably still draw their spells from the Weave, not the Shadow Weave.

Of course I say this only for the sake of clarity, and would remind Entori that he doesn't know all this stuff unless he learns it in-game.

Unless someone has been a part of a DM run plot on FRC in which in depth knowledge about the Shadow Weave was shared by a practitioner of it or shared by a cleric of Shar (highly unlikely), he/she does not know it exists.

[EDM Entori]

Yeah Munroe... Dachound smacked me good for doing that like my 1st month in.. I don't spit out oracles anymore.. thats for the diviners.

[Dachshund]

Figured this one could use a little *BUMP*.

[iangallowglas]

Just for clarification, do all or any Dark Moon monks use the shadow weave?

And if a shadow weave user casts a spell, is it obviously different than when the weave is used to cast the same spell, or is casting a shadow weave spell something that would require a lore check if any difference could be noted?


Thanks for the Bump Dachshund, been curious about this for a while now.

[EDM Entori]

yeah wow, worked to dig this one out and brush the dust off

[dmimmersion]

Dark Moon Monks do not use the Shadow Weave.

The shadow weave existance is severally limited and it's existance is not common knowledge to even those affiliated with Shar.

[brian333]

As I understand it, the Shadow Weave is the space between the Weave, like the tiny holes between the threads of cloth, and has nothing to do with the Plane of Shadow, from which Shadowdancers, Shades, and Ancient Netherese Cities derive their powers.

The Plane of Shadow is similar to an elemental plane adjacent to the Prime Material, and it is only by coincidence of naming that it's magic is confused with the Shadow Weave.

Is this essentially correct?

[ancientempathy]

[glow=black,2,300]

The Shadow Weave

[/glow]

The Shadow Weave is the space between the strands of the Weave, the gaps in the spider's web, the bubbles of air trapped in the waters of the ocean. It reaches everywhere the Weave does, and more, for the Shadow Weave is not subject to Mystra's law or state of well being. If Mystra were to die and the Weave collapse, the Shadow Weave would persist.

Users of the Shadow Weave are not subject to wild magic areas or dead magic areas in the Weave, for the draw upon another source of power. It might be possible for dead or wild magic areas to form in the Shadow Weave, but that would require great magical force to be expended agaisnt it, such as the deat of a deity who uses the Shadow Weave or the destruction of an artifact or mythal created with te Shadow Weave. No such events are known. Should these events come to pass, the effects would be similar to a Weave user in an area of wild or dead magic, except that a Shadow Weave user would be affected and a normal Weave caster would not.

A creature that uses the Shadow Weave cannot cast spells with the light designator or active spell completion or spell trigger items with the light designator. Any attempts to do so is a standard action and produces no effect, just as if the user were attempting to cast a spell within an antimagic field.

An antimagic field negates all magic within its area, so it does affect a user of the Shadow Weave. Likewise, Shadow Weave spells do not bypass spell resistance, although users of the Shadow Weave get a bonus on level checks to overcome spell resistance when casting spells of the schools of Enchantment, Illusion, and Necromancy.

From Magic of Faerun, pg. 10

[ancientempathy]

Mystra = Momma Weave

Shar = Momma Shadow Weave

//ps. as far as I know *did not actually doublecheck this time*

[Munroe]

Aug 26, 2008 15:30:38 GMT -5 brian333 said:

As I understand it, the Shadow Weave is the space between the Weave, like the tiny holes between the threads of cloth, and has nothing to do with the Plane of Shadow, from which Shadowdancers, Shades, and Ancient Netherese Cities derive their powers.

The Plane of Shadow is similar to an elemental plane adjacent to the Prime Material, and it is only by coincidence of naming that it's magic is confused with the Shadow Weave.

Is this essentially correct?

The Plane of Shadow IS the home plane of Shar, and the Shadovar of the Empire of Shade (the last remaining Netherese flying city) do use the Shadow Weave because Shar is the only religion of the City of Shade.

Shar's home plane is listed as the Plane of Shadow in Player's Guide to Faerun.
The shadovar of the City of Shade use Shadow Weave magic in Anauroch: Empire of Shade. (That book involves a HUGE Dead Magic Zone over the Anauroch, where only Shadow Weave magic works.)

Shadowdancers deal with shadow but not necessarily with the plane of shadow. One of the planes books (either Manual of the Planes or Planar Handbook) gives OPTIONS for having the shadowdancer PRC connected to the plane of Shadow, but it's an option, not the rule. (I'd have to look it up to be sure, but pretty sure of that.) Shadowdancers really don't have much written about them or their magic beyond what's in the DMG. A shadowdancer's Hide in Plain Sight ability is a Supernatural ability and does not function in Dead Magic Zones, because it is magical in nature. If the SD has the Shadow Weave User feat then I believe his HiPS would work in Dead Magic Zones then because the magic to power it would be coming from Shar instead of Mystra, but I'm not 100% sure on that since I don't know for sure whether that feat applies to supernatural and spell-like abilities.

Shar's avatar is listed as a rogue 10/shadowdancer 10/assassin 10/sorcerer 9/shadow adept 10 in Faiths and Pantheons.

Edit: I checked the Shadow Weave User feat in Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting AND Player's Guide to Faerun. Neither of them allows the user of the feat to use Supernatural or Spell-like abilities as Shadow Weave abilities rather than standard magical abilities, so even if a shadowdancer had the Shadow Weave User feat, my reading of the rules would indicate that his shadowdancer abilities would still be using the standard Weave. Of course there may be another feat somewhere that does allow for the Shadow Weave to be used for Supernatural or Spell-like abilities or it may just be assumed that Supernatural and Spell-like abilities of a Shadow Weave User would use the Shadow Weave. I'm still not 100% but by the rules I can find the Supernatural and Spell-like abilities would still be regular Weave abilities. That doesn't seem to make sense though, does it?

[EDM Neo]

Apr 1, 2007 6:51:09 GMT -5 EDM Neo said:

entori said:

I'm not too sure where it stands.. but shadow sheild, and shadow summonings along with shades.. I would assume to be shadow spells..

As was already mentioned previous times before... those are spells of the school of illusion, that make use of the normal weave, not the shadow weave. They are shadow spells in name alone.

Just restating this, again, as someone I spoke to tonight was under the impression that Shadow Conjuration was Shadow Weave magic, and therefore couldn't be used by their character.

Shadow Conjuration, Greater Shadow Conjuration, Shades, and Shadow Shield are all Illusion spells that can be cast using Mystra's Weave.

If a caster did have access to the Shadow Weave, they could use it to cast those same spells, but it does not mean the spells themselves belong to the Shadow Weave and it alone. In those particular examples, "Shadow" is just part of the name of the spell, and it doesn't mean anything more then that.

[DM Hawk]

*Friendly Bump*

[NHmikey]

*Bump*

[Munroe]

Yeah, this is the thread I failed to find.

[Lady Frost]

Using the Shadow Weave is not required for anything you've said there.

Putting something in your fiction on the forum and not having it called out is not approval of it. We generally do not police what players post in their creative writings here on the forum, because we do not read everything that is posted in the creative writings and character backgrounds here on the forum. However, when it does impact what occurs in-game and is brought to DM attention because it goes against established norms, we do take an interest.

Please note that the Shadow Weave is not available for your character. If she thinks she has been using the Shadow Weave, she has not. Whatever element is needed to learn how to use the Shadow Weave is not available to player characters on FRC.

There is a thread about the Shadow Weave in roleplay discussion that Kalbaern linked above. I would recommend that you read through it, and, if you wish to continue that discussion, you continue it there.

So, how does a player know they need approval for something? Nowhere is it listed in the rules that PC's can't use the shadow weave. If DM's expect a player to hunt down threads for every aspect of their character to make sure its "approved" you're sadly mistaken. If the DM team is going to be this strict in regards to something a player cannot do, it needs to be noted someplace that can be easily found.

All of this will be discussed with the team as a whole I assure you. For now, we ask all players to adhere to the rules in place.

Edit: No shadow weave casters. Thanks

No place is this listed as a rule.

[dmthann]

May 1, 2011 12:07:06 GMT -5 Lady Frost said:

Using the Shadow Weave is not required for anything you've said there.

Putting something in your fiction on the forum and not having it called out is not approval of it. We generally do not police what players post in their creative writings here on the forum, because we do not read everything that is posted in the creative writings and character backgrounds here on the forum. However, when it does impact what occurs in-game and is brought to DM attention because it goes against established norms, we do take an interest.

Please note that the Shadow Weave is not available for your character. If she thinks she has been using the Shadow Weave, she has not. Whatever element is needed to learn how to use the Shadow Weave is not available to player characters on FRC.

There is a thread about the Shadow Weave in roleplay discussion that Kalbaern linked above. I would recommend that you read through it, and, if you wish to continue that discussion, you continue it there.

So, how does a player know they need approval for something? Nowhere is it listed in the rules that PC's can't use the shadow weave. If DM's expect a player to hunt down threads for every aspect of their character to make sure its "approved" you're sadly mistaken. If the DM team is going to be this strict in regards to something a player cannot do, it needs to be noted someplace that can be easily found.

All of this will be discussed with the team as a whole I assure you. For now, we ask all players to adhere to the rules in place.

Edit: No shadow weave casters. Thanks

No place is this listed as a rule.

It's been long standing now, since the server started I believe, or close to.

This topic is under discussion on the DM boards. However, I think on this very thread it's listed as not being allowed.

[ancientempathy]

This is a common sense thing here, at least for most.

Anyone that knows source knows that tapping into the shadow weave cuts ones ties off into the Weave itself. Clashing Shadow Weave and Weave spells agaisnt each other can have catastrophic effects too - such as rendering areas into wild magic.

Can this be emulated correctly on the video game? No. So it's easier to not allow for it, and plain smart. Sadly its how the cookie crumbles.

Perhaps the rules can be worded differently, but if players are wanting to use a new source of magic, then it's my opinion they ought to be doing the research on the Shadow Weaves background, and if they are, they should have determined what I just offered in the first paragraph.

[Lady Frost]

May 1, 2011 12:20:40 GMT -5 @ancientempathy said:

This is a common sense thing here, at least for most.

Anyone that knows source knows that tapping into the shadow weave cuts ones ties off into the Weave itself. Clashing Shadow Weave and Weave spells agaisnt each other can have catastrophic effects too - such as rendering areas into wild magic.

Can this be emulated correctly on the video game? No. So it's easier to not allow for it, and plain smart. Sadly its how the cookie crumbles.

Perhaps the rules can be worded differently, but if players are wanting to use a new source of magic, then it's my opinion they ought to be doing the research on the Shadow Weaves background, and if they are, they should have determined what I just offered in the first paragraph.

I like to think I know a lot about source and the FR setting and I didn't know that. Nor did I know that there was a "rule" about nobody being able to use the shadow weave that included sharrans.
If I didn't know, its safe to say, there are many others that don't as well.

[ancientempathy]

May 1, 2011 12:28:50 GMT -5 Lady Frost said:

May 1, 2011 12:20:40 GMT -5 @ancientempathy said:

This is a common sense thing here, at least for most.

Anyone that knows source knows that tapping into the shadow weave cuts ones ties off into the Weave itself. Clashing Shadow Weave and Weave spells agaisnt each other can have catastrophic effects too - such as rendering areas into wild magic.

Can this be emulated correctly on the video game? No. So it's easier to not allow for it, and plain smart. Sadly its how the cookie crumbles.

Perhaps the rules can be worded differently, but if players are wanting to use a new source of magic, then it's my opinion they ought to be doing the research on the Shadow Weaves background, and if they are, they should have determined what I just offered in the first paragraph.

I like to think I know a lot about source and the FR setting and I didn't know that. Nor did I know that there was a "rule" about nobody being able to use the shadow weave that included sharrans.
If I didn't know, its safe to say, there are many others that don't as well.

Then ask questions?

Again, its the common sense rule here

If you know how the shadow weave works (or a semblance of), and you know it cant mechanically be emulated on NwN, then wouldn't it make sense to not tap into this source, and more importantly, even ask a DM if it'd be possible?

The game has limitations. If one is trying to push beyond the limitations...it just seems wise to ask in advance.

[EDM Neo]

LF's point is sound. If it's against the rules, it should ideally be in the Server Rules section where everyone can find it.

If it's against the rules and it isn't in the Server Rules section anyway, "punishment" for a first time offense should be limited to a gentle explanation and a request that the player in violation cease whatever behavior it is, with suggestions in how to ICly adapt if it was a point important to the character's roleplay.

[ancientempathy]

Is a player being punished though? As far as Ive been able to keep up - no one is being punished here? If not, I'm not sure what the concern is anymore.

Explaining to the player why the Shadow Weave can't be used is the best step, and to not punish them outright. It's not like the team wants to head-chop peoples heads off ;D

[ancientempathy]

On an added note towards Dobian for being a hard RPer and taking the time to writing out the stories, by now, I'd have personally allowed their PC the knowledge of the Shadow Weaves existence. I like initiative, and they've been attempting to be mindful and creative, not to mention level headed right now from the looks of it. I've been following their posts but hadn't taken into account that they may or may not be unfamiliar with the fact the Shadow Weave cant be used.

[kaltorac]

Rule #19 already covers why you cannot use the Shadow Weave.

19) Use common sense.

The reasons I believe this are as follows.

1) NWN's game mechanics simply do not allow it. To paraphase from pg 52 on in the FRCS, someone using the shadow weave cannot cast any spell with a light component, spells with a darkness component are enhanced and the shadow weave is unsuited for spells that manipulate energy.

1a) Shadow Magic is not affected by wild or dead magic areas. Something that anyone RPing a shadow wever will find hard to explain mechanics wise on any NWN PW.

1b) Those using the shadow weave have a much harder time discerning normal castings and that cannot be implimented via the game engine.

1c) Shadow weavers must have Shar's personal blessings and protections, less they go insane. IE, a DM would need to be involved. We as players cannot dictate any god's reactions.

1d) In FR Sources, access to the shadow weave is restricted to Shadow Adepts (a PrC that is not available here) or to selected high ranking clerics of Shar.

1e) Even in PnP, a player alone cannot dictate that they are a shadow weaver. Shar strictly controls who has and does not have access to the shadow weave. A player can strive to become a user, but still relies on a DM to determine whether the request is granted and to what effect.

2)"Common sense" rules as explained in the above reasons.

3) Regardless of what a player writes into their character's backgrounds, specific knowledge on any number of obscure or secret subjects is is not allowed without DM approval first. There is already a reference denying "Entori" just such a thing in regards to the shaow weave as it involves knowledge gained outside of FRC proper.

Should it be made clearer in the rules here that it isn't allowed? I think so. Still, the fact that a player would be making a character that neither classes or mechanics here supports should also automatically invoke Rule #19. There's also another crucial quote from the rules post:

If further clarification is required please PM a DM, or send one a tell in game.

Most players (and I've been guilty of it to) won't PM or ask about "gray" areas. Most of us will instead hope we can slip through the cracks unnoticed. The motivations are many. Sometimes "we" think we'll be told "No" and refuse to accept that. Sometimes we think we'll just annoy the DMs with our silly requests so avoid it. Sometimes, we're just too lazy to bother. So, when in doubt, just "ask" and save later heartaches is the moral here.

[Malignant Naricissism]

The Shadow Weave is a little wonky compared to the Weave, and while it'd be awesome to have it implemented, it'd take a lot of work, and haks.

[Deleted]

May 1, 2011 12:18:41 GMT -5 @dmthann said:

May 1, 2011 12:07:06 GMT -5 Lady Frost said:

However, I think on this very thread it's listed as not being allowed.

Do you think it might be better to post it in the rules section, rather than under "Roleplay Ideas, Suggestions, and Discussion?" More people looking for rules to follow might find it that way.