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Post by Weasel War Dance on Jul 12, 2008 19:24:06 GMT -5
The Lady of Pain.
I am by no means an expert on Loviatar and if anyone feels that I am off-base or contradicting their character concept please feel free to post your disagreement with me. Loviatans (or Lovites by some accounts) have multiple facets and can be approached from a variety of angles. The purpose of this post is to give others insight into how I intend to play my character and a variety of ideas for people who wish to pick up the whip. This is a fictional religion and not my own personal belief system, nor would I encourage anyone to apply these concepts to real life.
1. Suffer blows that cannot be avoided and deal pain to those who offend. –A good Loviatan must be willing to accept punishment as well as deal it. If you choose to play a character that only likes to inflict pain, then I would suggest a different religion.
2. Kindness is the companion to hurts, never use unswerving cruelty. --One that only dishes out only pain and suffering will never make friends or loving followers. A Loviatan must provide what a person desires and also take what it is they desire from them. Always leave a person feeling they have gotten the better end of the deal and they will return for more punishment.
3. Act alluring and give pain to those who enjoy it as well as those who would be hurt by it. –A follower of Loviatar can be alluring in more ways than one, and for the efforts of the entire religion it is important to have many facets to make themselves more desirable. Not everyone is tempted by tattoos, piercings and lots of bare flesh so many methods of temptation must be presented. Since Loviatar is Lawful Evil, they have a firm sense of discipline and would not dish out pain in a random or half-hazard manner. Instead they feel it is better to learn as much as you can about the intended target and find out what causes grief and gently push the buttons of agony to the brink of unendurable. Emotional pain is truly far worse than physical pain, so a follower should seek to cause pain that is specific to that individual. It is a tight-rope walk of emotions, balancing between inflicting pain on others but not so much that they will resist and take action against you.
4. Lash, Fire and Cold are the three primary pains of Loviatar. One single method of dispensing pain is soon endurable, so a variety of methods should always be imposed. Personally, I take a metaphorical sense to Lash, Fire and Cold: The Lash is the sting, the cut, the separation. Fire is destruction, heat, and consuming pain. Cold is slow numbing torment, isolation and imprisonment.
5. There is no true punishment if the punisher knows no discipline. Pain tests all and leads to enlightenment. –A good religion must offer more than physical pleasure. From enduring pain one learns to accept and rise above such pain. Try to inflict pain upon others to help them realize that fear and loathing of pain is childish and animalistic. One must hurt in order to heal: there is no growth except through conflict and strife, and that which does not kill us makes us stronger. Through carefully placed pain, Loviatar teaches followers to rise to the challenge and even seek out new challenges to test their resolve. However, becoming numb to pain and building up scar tissue both emotionally and physically is completely undesirable. The goal of a priest or priestess should be to become so acutely aware of pain that even the slightest touch gives excruciating torment. The goal should never be, “I’ve suffered so much that nothing hurts anymore.” But “Everything hurts, but I can take it.”
Loviatar seeks people of all kinds: from the meek and sad eyed hopeful souls seeking to better deal with the world, to leather-clad whip wielding men and women. There is no one path that can torment all people equally and really one should decide what people are your targets based upon the character concept you have chosen. Here are a few examples of Loviatans that I think have great potential:
Temptress: Some people are drawn to the pleasures of the flesh and are willing to accept extreme amounts of pain to get it. These Loviatans can quickly cause a great deal of pain to a large number of people and even make a profit from it. Inflicting emotional and physical pain in exchange for whatever it is the individual is wants.
Sadist: The only thing that seems to make pain go away is watching others suffer more. Deep down sadists are extremely insecure and seek to control others to prove they are powerful. Just seeing others submit is enough to make the sadist feel important. Emotional sadists are probably the worst: Think of a group of high-school girls planning elaborate plots to make another person feel completely worthless or the college fraternity boys willing to go to extreme lengths for a malicious prank.
Masochist: Through physical pain, the emotional sadness is drowned out. This can be the front-line warrior eagerly taking it for the team or a rogue that goes on missions knowing they will get yelled at for missing that one trap out of ten. Perhaps a sorcerer with an extreme guilt complex for always hiding behind front-line warriors belittling herself or even hurting herself to show the warriors that she understands what they are going through. Most paladins would never go near a leather-clad dominatrix but would gladly go with an archer that occasionally misfires into their back and then begs them to strike them with their sword to make up for the horrible agony she caused them.
Manipulator: There are hundreds of kinds of manipulators:
Some seek kind-hearted individuals to save them, just too constantly not be good enough and revert back, always leaving enough hope that the problem may some-day be resolved. (Modern day drug user who really doesn’t want to quit, but always finds a way to convince his girlfriend that this time he really means it)
The brawny fighter protecting others who slowly begins asking others to do more and more to prove that your sacrifices are worthwhile. (Modern day mother who just ‘doesn’t want to be a bother’)
The meek, shy girl that finds strong able warriors to protect her, and slowly gains their trust and betrays them bit by bit. (Modern day passive-aggressive)
The captivating bard that sings the glory of their team-mates while they are present then turns around and sings the ‘true’ story to a large audience. (Modern day journalist)
It is my opinion that Loviatar is a wonderful religion because of the complete versatility and ability to play a wide variety of characters. It offers a wonderful view of enlightenment and a strong belief system that can deflect ethical questions. I think Loviatar works through many people without them even knowing they are. A paladin can easily fall prey to Loviatar’s will the instant they start making others feel guilty, sinful and worthless.
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Post by ancientempathy on Jul 12, 2008 23:34:25 GMT -5
This is very well written
Keep it up!
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Post by SlothfulCat on Jul 13, 2008 6:45:20 GMT -5
I played a Loviatan priest for about six months at one point, and he functioned in similar fashion to what is above, his particular take went something like this:
1.) The dead feel no pain.
2.) Healing others enables them to endure their agonies longer, or recover to suffer even more pain at a later time.
3.) My willingness to bear pain demonstrates my faith to my goddess; if I shield myself from pain and injury I am rejecting her touch.
The way this worked was that during those six months he became the most skilled healer on the server, seldom left the city because he was always recovering from near death experiences himself (due to not wearing much armor); and even in healing wounds he caused pain by utilizing a large iron needle, jabbing it into the wound to begin healing. (This was something I found in a 2e source, unfortunately its been at least 3 years ago.)
My own take on most of the gods is that there are /very/ good tidbits of 2e stuff out there to be looked at which can be used for inspiration or adapted to NWN's 3/3.5e. Sometimes this also includes the made up "speciality priests" of various faiths; Heartwarders for Sune, Pains of Loviatar etc.
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Post by dakashy on Jul 13, 2008 9:25:47 GMT -5
Thank you for this interesting article.
I hope you continue on with other religions.
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Post by Weasel War Dance on Jul 13, 2008 20:26:15 GMT -5
To Dakashy: I might do some other religions, though it's a dangerous game that might offend people.
To Slothfulcat: I think we are really on the same track here. Undead and constructs really are not productive to fight, though some emotional pain could be gained by turning a valued love-one into a zombie. I think Loviatans would be excellent healers, and in some ways it would be just like a trip to a dentist.
You gave me a fantastic idea. Loviatans could take vows like some religions do vows of poverty, chivalry, silence, chastity and celebacy
Loviatans could have. . .
Vow of Defenselessness: Never shield yourself from harm.
Vow of the Itch: Wear uncomfortable clothing, thorns in armor, or modern day high-heel shoes.
Vow of the Broken: Always have a broken bone, open wound, or bleeding cut.
Vow of Repression: Prevent oneself from enjoying good food, fine clothing, comfortable beds or even pleasurable sexual activity.
A comment on the sexual activity. It is my opinion that this religion is Not about the sex, but about the pain Sure sex exists but only as an afterthought or means to an end, not the focus. If kinky sexual activity is the focus of a character I think Sharess is a much better bet.
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Post by Munroe on Jul 13, 2008 22:47:25 GMT -5
If kinky sexual activity is the focus of a character I think Sharess is a much better bet. Since Sharess is CG some may prefer something more evil. I recommend for Chaotic Evil characters the demons Graz'zt (The Dark Prince) and Malcanthet (Queen of the Succubi) for that sort of thing as long as the character isn't a divine caster. For the Lawful Evil inclined, among the devils there's Mammon, as well as Belial and his daughter/lover Fierna. Again though, these are devils so not suitable patrons for divine spellcasters. |
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Post by Weasel War Dance on Jul 14, 2008 1:51:15 GMT -5
I understand completely that characters of Loviatar might like the sexual aspects of it. I am just afraid that some view it the religion of kinky sex and not real torture.
I think kinky sex between two consensual partners falls into the Chaotic Good realm. Both enjoy the pleasure and to heck with society and what they think.
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Post by SlothfulCat on Jul 14, 2008 10:14:24 GMT -5
*grumbles* Notice Sune is /not/ mentioned above...
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Post by Weasel War Dance on Jul 14, 2008 12:39:07 GMT -5
This might be just me but when I think of Sune, I think of that Bryan Adams, Sting and Rod Stewart Song "All for Love." I think when 'that' experience is concerned it's supposed to be beautiful, like a love scene from the movies where everything is perfect and both partner's love and respect each other on physical, emotional and spiritual level.
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Post by Weasel War Dance on Jul 14, 2008 12:47:49 GMT -5
I think Lovitans make wonderful PC Villians. They are out to cause harm no matter how petty and for little to no personal gain. They are the kind of villain that has every reason to capture the PCs, lock them up put them in a cell to await the 'Most painful experience' of their lives. Which is a wonderful excuse for giving them plenty of time to escape, or someone to rescue them. On a less grand level, many players enjoy drama and Lovitans are wonderful for spicing things up. What would a soap opera be without that person who has no other intention but to keep the couple apart for no good reason? Eventually they are going to get back together, everyone knows it, but that romantic angst is just so compelling.
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Post by ashaffer on Jul 14, 2008 16:47:41 GMT -5
I think Lovitans make wonderful PC Villians. They are out to cause harm no matter how petty and for little to no personal gain. They are the kind of villain that has every reason to capture the PCs, lock them up put them in a cell to await the 'Most painful experience' of their lives. Which is a wonderful excuse for giving them plenty of time to escape, or someone to rescue them. My Two Coppers:
What people need to keep in mind is that there are a lot of players who have absolutely no desire to be involved in this type of roleplay, myself included. I would not want to roleplay torture any more than I'd want to roleplay rape, as I see them as different sides to the same coin. So please make sure that the person on the receiving end truly wants to do the torture RP, and isn't just going along with it because they feel obligated to do so. And yes, players have gone along with torture RP even though they found it extremely distasteful, and it ruined their fun. It never occurred to the instigator to ask the other person if they were having fun as well. It is also imperative to make sure that the player you are dealing with is not a minor, as FRC has its fair share of underaged players. |
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Post by EDM Entori on Jul 14, 2008 21:24:29 GMT -5
I think Lovitans make wonderful PC Villians. They are out to cause harm no matter how petty and for little to no personal gain. They are the kind of villain that has every reason to capture the PCs, lock them up put them in a cell to await the 'Most painful experience' of their lives. Which is a wonderful excuse for giving them plenty of time to escape, or someone to rescue them. My Two Coppers:
What people need to keep in mind is that there are a lot of players who have absolutely no desire to be involved in this type of roleplay, myself included. I would not want to roleplay torture any more than I'd want to roleplay rape, as I see them as different sides to the same coin. So please make sure that the person on the receiving end truly wants to do the torture RP, and isn't just going along with it because they feel obligated to do so. And yes, players have gone along with torture RP even though they found it extremely distasteful, and it ruined their fun. It never occurred to the instigator to ask the other person if they were having fun as well. It is also imperative to make sure that the player you are dealing with is not a minor, as FRC has its fair share of underaged players. While some people disagree to go along with the whole scene, I do seem to think that making the scene "rated G" and saying yes it did happen, but it didn't sort of thing seems to be an equal way out, it saves a player an un-enjoyable experience, but allows RP to continue. IMHO and truely this is personal, I feel that to stop RP for OOC reasons, really just -sucks- lovitar exists and if your character crosses one, or heck joins one well it should be expected sooner or later if captured this sort of thing would happen. To the Degree its RP'd is different. keeping it G, or coming to an understanding through tells works well enough. *and throughout the night many gruesome things were done to bob...skip ahead skip ahead skip ahead*.. would be my example of Rping something like that. Again this is how -I- would handle it, if your not comfortable with anything in a -game- feel free to turn it off or find a way to make it enjoyable (through tells). Playing a character out for revenge for that sort of thing may be fun. all I am saying is sometimes a compromise can be made, rather then stopping and finding a solution that completely ruins that sort of character. What fun is it for the villains if they can't -be- villains. Villains are also a very much needed part of a RP server. So I guess in short RP what you want, but try to keep the flow in difficult times. Even if it is making a scene "rated G" at least the scene happens and said character continues with the flow. If you can. |
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Post by ShadowCatJen on Jul 14, 2008 22:34:00 GMT -5
My Two Coppers:
What people need to keep in mind is that there are a lot of players who have absolutely no desire to be involved in this type of roleplay, myself included. I would not want to roleplay torture any more than I'd want to roleplay rape, as I see them as different sides to the same coin. So please make sure that the person on the receiving end truly wants to do the torture RP, and isn't just going along with it because they feel obligated to do so. And yes, players have gone along with torture RP even though they found it extremely distasteful, and it ruined their fun. It never occurred to the instigator to ask the other person if they were having fun as well. It is also imperative to make sure that the player you are dealing with is not a minor, as FRC has its fair share of underaged players. While some people disagree to go along with the whole scene, I do seem to think that making the scene "rated G" and saying yes it did happen, but it didn't sort of thing seems to be an equal way out, it saves a player an un-enjoyable experience, but allows RP to continue. IMHO and truely this is personal, I feel that to stop RP for OOC reasons, really just -sucks- lovitar exists and if your character crosses one, or heck joins one well it should be expected sooner or later if captured this sort of thing would happen. To the Degree its RP'd is different. keeping it G, or coming to an understanding through tells works well enough. *and throughout the night many gruesome things were done to bob...skip ahead skip ahead skip ahead*.. would be my example of Rping something like that. Again this is how -I- would handle it, if your not comfortable with anything in a -game- feel free to turn it off or find a way to make it enjoyable (through tells). Playing a character out for revenge for that sort of thing may be fun. all I am saying is sometimes a compromise can be made, rather then stopping and finding a solution that completely ruins that sort of character. What fun is it for the villains if they can't -be- villains. Villains are also a very much needed part of a RP server. So I guess in short RP what you want, but try to keep the flow in difficult times. Even if it is making a scene "rated G" at least the scene happens and said character continues with the flow. If you can. Tells, tells, tells. OOC tells. I can not stress this enough. It is VERY much the responsibility of the players involved to make sure that they are alright with this happening to their PC. Especially the evil player, because if the receiving player is not alright with it then it falls on their heads to find a way out of that situation. The subject of torture had been discussed before (can't seem to be able to find the thread) and there were various ways spoken about on how to deal with that RP situation. Overall, though, it needs to be realized that the player of one PC can not force this situation on the player of another. If the player of the torturing PC is going about telling the other that "no, you can't get out of this situation because of RP reasons A, B, and C" then that player is breaking rule number one here on FRC. |
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Post by Weasel War Dance on Jul 15, 2008 2:50:48 GMT -5
They are the kind of villain that has every reason to capture the PCs, lock them up put them in a cell to await the 'Most painful experience' of their lives. Which is a wonderful excuse for giving them plenty of time to escape, or someone to rescue them. In this particular example, no torture actually takes place. The villains are just implying what nasty things that are going to come, giving players plenty of time to escape or be rescued. |
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Post by Grozer on Jul 15, 2008 9:53:50 GMT -5
While some people disagree to go along with the whole scene, I do seem to think that making the scene "rated G" and saying yes it did happen, but it didn't sort of thing seems to be an equal way out, it saves a player an un-enjoyable experience, but allows RP to continue. IMHO and truely this is personal, I feel that to stop RP for OOC reasons, really just -sucks- lovitar exists and if your character crosses one, or heck joins one well it should be expected sooner or later if captured this sort of thing would happen. To the Degree its RP'd is different. keeping it G, or coming to an understanding through tells works well enough. *and throughout the night many gruesome things were done to bob...skip ahead skip ahead skip ahead*.. would be my example of Rping something like that. Again this is how -I- would handle it, if your not comfortable with anything in a -game- feel free to turn it off or find a way to make it enjoyable (through tells). Playing a character out for revenge for that sort of thing may be fun. all I am saying is sometimes a compromise can be made, rather then stopping and finding a solution that completely ruins that sort of character. What fun is it for the villains if they can't -be- villains. Villains are also a very much needed part of a RP server. So I guess in short RP what you want, but try to keep the flow in difficult times. Even if it is making a scene "rated G" at least the scene happens and said character continues with the flow. If you can. Tells, tells, tells. OOC tells. I can not stress this enough. It is VERY much the responsibility of the players involved to make sure that they are alright with this happening to their PC. Especially the evil player, because if the receiving player is not alright with it then it falls on their heads to find a way out of that situation. The subject of torture had been discussed before (can't seem to be able to find the thread) and there were various ways spoken about on how to deal with that RP situation. Overall, though, it needs to be realized that the player of one PC can not force this situation on the player of another. If the player of the torturing PC is going about telling the other that "no, you can't get out of this situation because of RP reasons A, B, and C" then that player is breaking rule number one here on FRC. At the risk of taking this more off tagent I think its important to point out if a player does not wish to get involved in these types of scenarios the easiest approach is to ensure the situation never arises. Personally having played an evil PC for a while now and one who is not above torture, I always ask the other players involved oocly if they are completely alright with where the RP will go. I also reassure them that if they truely feel this is not comfortable then let me know and I will come up with a RP out, this is to help disuade any hesitation. At the same time, something to keep in mind: Do not hide behind, "I wont do torture/punishment/PvP because I dont like it." when and if your PC walked into the scenario. What I mean is if you egged an evil PC into the situation in some fashion then you must accept the consequences of your PCs actions. I am NOT saying you are forced to RP the scenario. It could be what Entori described you and the evil PC agree oocly that you are out of game for a day "being tortured" and afterwards find yourself slowly waking up in some forest/field/vacant building. Bottom line you still have to deal with repercussions of what your PC caused. I also would suggest evil PCs do not "seek" out innocent victims without provocation unless you 100% know and have ooc agreement from the victim. My suggestion screen shot the tell/agreement, I do. |
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Post by ManyAsOne on Jul 15, 2008 11:25:13 GMT -5
I'm going to make this as clear as possible. The DM Team has stated their stance on this and as much as it may 'suck' to stop RP for OOC reasons, no one should ever feel inclined that they have to take part in RP that would make them uncomfortable, including and especially situations that involve torture. If someone says 'no', thats it. No means no. There's no compromise there. If someone does not want to roleplay a torture situation, then they will be left alone in that regard. Speak OOCly and figure out a means to work around it, be it a 'fade to black' situation where the torture threats are made and everyone assumes it happened without actually RPing it out, or simply by allowing the would-be victim to escape. There is no excuse to force someone into that kind of RP if they do not want to take part in it. If you are harassing another player and attempting to force them into a situation they're uncomfortable in, expect a DM to step in and ban you. If you are being harassed, contact a DM. We will be happy to deal with it. I would go so far as to add any torture that does take place, take place in a secluded area where no one has to deal with it except for the people involved. Please note that there is also a rule regarding torture on the forums. It has no place here. Discussion of it is fine, but any graphic detail, screenshots included, is not permitted. frc.proboards37.com/index.cgi?board=serverrules&action=display&thread=1282So, having that said, continue your discussion. |
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Post by EDM Entori on Jul 15, 2008 15:04:12 GMT -5
I'm going to make this as clear as possible. The DM Team has stated their stance on this and as much as it may 'suck' to stop RP for OOC reasons, no one should ever feel inclined that they have to take part in RP that would make them uncomfortable, including and especially situations that involve torture. If someone says 'no', thats it. No means no. There's no compromise there. If someone does not want to roleplay a torture situation, then they will be left alone in that regard. Speak OOCly and figure out a means to work around it, be it a 'fade to black' situation where the torture threats are made and everyone assumes it happened without actually RPing it out, or simply by allowing the would-be victim to escape. There is no excuse to force someone into that kind of RP if they do not want to take part in it. If you are harassing another player and attempting to force them into a situation they're uncomfortable in, expect a DM to step in and ban you. If you are being harassed, contact a DM. We will be happy to deal with it. I would go so far as to add any torture that does take place, take place in a secluded area where no one has to deal with it except for the people involved. Please note that there is also a rule regarding torture on the forums. It has no place here. Discussion of it is fine, but any graphic detail, screenshots included, is not permitted. frc.proboards37.com/index.cgi?board=serverrules&action=display&thread=1282So, having that said, continue your discussion. that said I think you took my comments out of context, I never said the person had to go along with situation at all, merely they should equally find a situation to bring both characters out, in an enjoyable experience. Which could of been any number of ways .. I was in no way condemning players getting into situations they are uncomfortable with or telling people they should go along with RP they're uncomfortable with. Just so we're clear. |
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Post by ancientempathy on Jul 15, 2008 15:15:30 GMT -5
I think Batty was speaking on a general level. It was not directed to anyone. A mere reminder, if you would.
If this topic doesn't go back on track I will be locking it.
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Post by Weasel War Dance on Jul 15, 2008 16:17:27 GMT -5
*trying to change the topic*
I think there is a lot more for Lovitans to do other than pure physical torment. With emotional and spiritual pain included I think it creates a perfect situation for everyone. For instance: If the Loviatan is trying to get a Paladin to question his faith and debate the nature of good and evil it is entirely upon the paladin to choose whether or not their faith is even questioned by them. Some Paladins love to have internal problems and Loviatans are wonderful for helping to create that.
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Post by SlothfulCat on Jul 15, 2008 17:36:21 GMT -5
*trying to change the topic*Some Paladins love to have internal problems and Loviatans are wonderful for helping to create that. So is sam's special! |
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