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Post by Spooks on Aug 3, 2005 20:02:42 GMT -5
Again I post in hope to get the official stated results.
Are players forced to admit their evil alignments when a paladin says they cast Detect Evil?
I have already come upon situations where a paladin "used" Detect Evil to track a monster or something and a DM pointed out that a nearby player was evil. Seems that killed alot of hard earned RP for said PC.
Will there be a way to block it? (a sheet of lead?)
And though we do not need a date as to when if at all, but will it be a mechanic thing, or a RP thing to detect alignments?
And as posted previously, ANY stances by the DM's is welcome.
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Post by DM Justicar - Creator of FRC on Aug 5, 2005 11:04:57 GMT -5
The official stance is that detect evil cannot be "used" by players. We have a system that should emerge soon that will allow players with the appropriate inate ability to do so. In the meantime, please don't attempt to detect evil.
If you are involved in a DM Quest, the DM may elect to grant you this ability at his/her discretion.
Cheers!
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Post by DM Valkyrie on Dec 10, 2006 9:27:30 GMT -5
*bump*
This really is worth the time to read, especially considering the more recent question on the DM Q&A Forum.
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Post by shadowlightsword on Dec 29, 2006 13:14:41 GMT -5
Now, I'm not sure if this has been noted yet as I just skimmed all the posts, but a paladin can use detect evil at will. So it is indeed an active ability and thus he/she would need to have a reason to use it. Also, it is as the spell which uses the paladin class level as a caster level I think. The spell allows the caster to detect evil in an area around him/her, and allows the caster to determine generally where evil is, but not precisely which being is evil or how evil until the caster casts it on an individual.
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Post by moulinous on Dec 29, 2006 13:19:03 GMT -5
i hate alignments to be honest...think of them as guidelines more than anything else...would hafta have some heavy restrictions i think...
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Post by heimdall on Dec 29, 2006 13:21:58 GMT -5
Now, I'm not sure if this has been noted yet as I just skimmed all the posts, but a paladin can use detect evil at will. So it is indeed an active ability and thus he/she would need to have a reason to use it. Also, it is as the spell which uses the paladin class level as a caster level I think. The spell allows the caster to detect evil in an area around him/her, and allows the caster to determine generally where evil is, but not precisely which being is evil or how evil until the caster casts it on an individual. Not sure why you are even posting this. Read the threads ~ Read the rules. Paladins do not get Detect Evil of FRC unless specifically allowed by a DM as it pertains to a quest/event they are running.
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abby
Old School
Posts: 323
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Post by abby on Dec 10, 2007 23:29:28 GMT -5
Actually, I thought of a pretty good way to use "detect evil" though it isnt foolproof and I could use some other peoples' thoughts.
THe spell Magic circle vs. alighnment is a great tool for accomplishing this. When its cast, it makes a big 10' circle. When Abby casts' this, any evil people who happen to be standing inside the circle should probably feel very uncomfortable within. Since the spell confers a -2 to strike and damage, I can only imagine that would mean that the evil (or good) person standing within the circle would be feeling sick or nauseous. Most opposing alighnment players would wish to step out of the circle.
My thought is that the evil character should have to make a Will save at the same DC as the spell's DC would normally be to be able to supress any physical signs of repulsion. Example, its a 5th level spell I believe, so say the cleric has a +5 wisdom score, and casts Circle of Protection from evil (or good) he would send a tell to the the players in the circle saying: "If you are evil and standing inside this circle, try to make a Will save, DC 20 (10+spell level+wis) to avoid leaving the circle or looking ill when you stay within it.)
Success at the Will save doesnt mean they dont feel any ill effects, only that they are able to suppress them so others dont see the tell-tale sign that they are uncomfortable in the circle. They would still probably like to leave the circle as soon as they can without giving themselves away.
Its important to note that the person standing in the circle never need give any OOC info away if he is successful. If he is not evil and therefore not affected, he can simply stay in the circle without replying to the tell, or if his save is successful (and folks, we are on the honor system here) he need only remain in the circle and let the caster decide if he is evil or not.
The spell could aslo be countered by its opposite (circle of evil vs. good) or by plain old "Protection from (ooposite alignment of the circle you are in)" Or any other spell that hedges out mind affecting magic... even Clarity. That makes for tons of ways to avoid the detection to work, but still gives us a way to use a basic form of detect evil/good. And the main reason we couldnt before was because of the lack of "counter" options available.
Of course, in the heat of battle it wont do any good... just for when your standing around RPing in town. and who knows what will happen when you do it since it will be obvious what your doing... let the RP ensue.
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Post by canuckkane on Dec 11, 2007 16:17:52 GMT -5
I'm all for the idea of paladins being able to detect evil, it's a great idea. However, I agree that it should be a generic thing i.e. "you sense the presence of evil" as opposed to zeroing in on who and what is evil. As Vrulo I've told people that summon devas around Vrulo that they would be nervous, wary, etc. and as devas are supposed to be able to literally see into a person's soul (as is my understanding) Devas ~know~ it's Vrulo eminating the evil aura, as for a paladin I would think it would be more of a general sense of "there's something evil here". Just my two cents
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abby
Old School
Posts: 323
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Post by abby on Dec 11, 2007 17:29:55 GMT -5
Justicar already said that it wasnt going to happen... Paladins with Detect Evil that is. However the circle vs. alighnment is well within the means of people on the server already and makes a great substitute for this ability that is both counterable and fair.
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Post by Aodhan the Unusual on Dec 12, 2007 1:50:19 GMT -5
Official ruling is magic circle vs. alignment will not be used as a substitute for detect evil. It is not a mind affecting spell, so there would be no reason for will saves. Characters CAN cast it opposing their alignment (evil can cast protection from evil, good can cast protection from good, etc.), and in all reality, it is no better than a simple protection vs alignment spell.
To quote another DM:
The only exception is opposed-alignment outsiders that cannot enter the area of a magic circle (or exit one if it is used as a cage). This protection from opposed-alignment outsiders is part of the spell though, not a replacement for Detect Evil.
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abby
Old School
Posts: 323
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Post by abby on Dec 12, 2007 14:13:52 GMT -5
So, if an opposing alignment character stands -within- the circle vs their alignment, the minus to damage and strike they will suffer when they try to attack -anything- should be considered to have no physical manifestation in the world and be just numbers on a character sheet?
Can we at least leave this up to player choice so that those players involved can use it if they agree with it? The poll above shows that the vast majority of people would like to see some kind of system in place. Ive used this spell on two players so far, and neither player seemed to see any problem with accepting the fact that their characters wouldn't really be comfortable standing inside a circle which confers direct negatives to their characters... Thats just good RP
The will save was just to hide signs of discomfort... not to fight off mind effecting magic. Though honestly, a perform check, or bluff check or any number of other "excuses" as to why they have to leave would work just as well.
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Post by Quadhund/Greenhouse on Dec 12, 2007 15:30:11 GMT -5
If players want to give up their alignments through this means, we cannot stop them. What the DM team has agreed on is that under no circumstances does a player need to make a will save (or any other check) if they do not want to. Disregarding the "effects" of the Magic Circle will also not be considered poor RP (especially since the PnP version does not impose any such effects : www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/magicCircleAgainstEvil.htm ). In fact, in the description of the NWN spell, it doesn't even include this -2 to attack and damage (just +2 deflection ac bonus as protection from alignment spell conveys). Also, interpreting -2 to attack and damage can vary from person to person. Where you interpret it as sickness or nausea, another person may interpret as part of the divine magic preventing harm to those of proper alignment (imagine a god's will holding back your sword arm). On a side note: anything dealing with the physical would be fortitude saves and anything dealing with the mind would be will saves.
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Post by Munroe on Dec 12, 2007 17:58:31 GMT -5
Magic Circle vs. Evil doesn't convey a penalty to attackers, it conveys a bonus to defenders. The spell description in the PHB actually says "All creatures within the area gain the effects of a protection from evil spell and no nongood summoned creatures can enter the area either." (The part about nongood outsiders entering the circle requires the magic circle to beat the outsider's spell resistance.)
The spell does not specify that only allies gain the effects of the Magic Circle either. All creatures within the area of effect should gain the benefit as though they have Protection from Evil cast on them. Magic Circle does not convey any penalty on enemies, it conveys a benefit on everyone in the area of effect.
Protection from Evil provides a +2 deflection bonus to AC and a +2 resistance bonus on saves vs. evil creatures, as well as suppresses the effect of any mind-affecting spells on the target for the duration of the spell (but doesn't prevent the effects from persisting beyond the duration of the spell). Protection from Evil also prevents possession from occurring but does NOT end an active possession. The protection from mind-affects works regardless of the alignment of the attacker.
Protection from Evil also prevents bodily contact by summoned creatures. It causes the natural weapon attacks of such creatures to fail and the creatures to recoil. Summoned creatures of alignment matching the spell are immune to this effect. If the warded creature attempts to attack the summoned creature or force the barrier against a blocked creature, the protection from summoned creatures component ends. Spell resistance also allows a summoned creature to overcome Protection from Evil.
The important thing to note in this conversation is that the defensive capabilities are Deflection bonus to AC vs. Evil, and that the part preventing contact only applies to outsiders, and even in their case their spell resistance--not any save--is responsible for determining their contact.
Most player characters, unless they have a class, item, or feat that grants spell resistance, do not have any spell resistance. However that doesn't mean much because the bonus from Protection from Evil is a Deflection bonus to AC, which is the same kind of magical AC bonus that is also found on helmets, belts, cloaks, and rings. So even if an Evil character attacks you, can you tell whether it was the Deflection from your gear or from your spell that caused them to miss? According to Rules Compendium (and NWN behaves this way as well), Deflection bonuses don't stack. Since this is a Deflection bonus vs. Evil, it may be an exception...but I doubt it since Weapon bonuses vs. alignment (of any particular type) don't stack (with other weapon bonuses of that type). So, in short, you may not be receiving any increased AC at all from your Magic Circle spell if you're wearing any of the items I mentioned above with AC on it.
In short, there really shouldn't be any means for you to RP someone's alignment with Magic Circle vs. Alignment. In fact, it would even be hard to metagame someone's alignment with Magic Circle vs. Alignment since the mind-affecting protection is indicated in the spell description as not alignment specific.
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Post by EDM Entori on Dec 12, 2007 19:20:00 GMT -5
if I get this straight..
if mage A casts circle of protection around the party and Outsider is called, or is encountered, of evil. my mage of good. if it does not get nulled by SR. Then the outsider cannot come withing the circle?
Assuming the outsider was outside the circle upon casting?
thanks
ent
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Post by Quadhund/Greenhouse on Dec 12, 2007 19:36:53 GMT -5
Yes, but I do not think NWN respects this.
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abby
Old School
Posts: 323
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Post by abby on Dec 12, 2007 20:06:49 GMT -5
Thanks for the info! Scratch that plan.
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Post by EDM Entori on Dec 12, 2007 22:10:14 GMT -5
yeah I was going to say sweet if it did..
thanks greenie.
ent
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