Detect Evil/Good

[DM Justicar - Creator of FRC]

There is a two-fold reason for asking this poll question:

1. Does our community want this ability for Paladins and/or Blackguards?

2. Talus's' Rest Menu is nearing completion and this (detect evil) is already included as a main feature for the paladin/BG classes. We are still at the point where we may include and/or NOT include this feature. For those who DON'T know what this means: Talus, one of our community members has created a wonderful interface that allows players to emote, conduct special abilities, rest, etc from one convenient rest menu by simply striking the "R" key without using traditional "emote wands" etc. The (TRM) project is in late testing and evaluation in general, and for FRC. The rest menu is going in the module with -or without- the detect evil ability.

I would like to "squash" this once and for all. Lets get a good clean poll. I feel that this will give our DM's some real data to base a conclusion upon.

Cheers!

--Justy

[Thrym]

Im all for it. I allways RP'd detect evil is in there anyways (as every paladin that met jandor should know), and I think It would be great if it works rulewise in FRC. Though you should then definitly give evil spellcasters a way to mask their alignment magically, as not everyone wants other people to know of his evilness.

[MithrilBlade]

Agreed.

Detect evil is handy addition to paladin talents BUT it should not be made impossible to resist/block if for example powerful mage/cleric would want to mask it.

It adds certain flavour to RP as long as it's not spammed to find something you OOCly know (for example someone disguised/hidden).

Also I would like to ask should we allow people to use the cones without ANY limits, since I think it's wrong if people can use the cone to detect everything around them just if they use time.
IMO it should be once/minute or so where the cone would be pointed would actually matter.

Just several ideas.

[Keetena]

mithrilblade said:

Detect evil is handy addition to paladin talents BUT it should not be made impossible to resist/block if for example powerful mage/cleric would want to mask it.

Why usually people who don't play bards never remenbers that we are spellcasters too?? LOL Undectable alignment is a spell to clerics, paladins, assassins and bards(Brd 1, Clr 2, Pal 2, Asn 2), not avaiable to wizards/sorcerers.. if they have another spell to hide alignment it isn't this one... please another one can search this . Just to remenber the bard can be considered specialist in such matter, cause our life is perform, many bards are always disguising their true soul and spirit and disguising their alignment as well... but to add more knowledge in this area nobody is better than an assassin to prevent all forms of scry.

[Talus]

ooh ooh Talus' rest thingy. I helped test some of this it was really cool. No I had nothing to do with this. It's that other Talus. Can't wait till that get's in game.

[trebarruna]

Im all favor for things that spice the game! As long as it is properly RPed, this new item will make the game way more interesting!

[prophyet]

Why a paladin would ever cast undetectable alignment on himself or anything else is beyond me.

Do the authors of v3 even know what a Paladin is or stands for?

[prophyet]

theseeker said:

indeed hide anilement spell or a item to hide it should be made..if this happens

Undetectable alignment may work for your petty cutthroat or hooligan, but Blackguards have an unholy aura about them that affects any in that radius, it is hard to cover that up.

[Kolfrosta]

Yes! Finally....

However, keep in mind, a paladin has to have a reason for detecting evil, it isn't something they just do out of the blue. Granted, it usually isn't too difficult to pick out the average "evil" character, as they tend to give themselves away. And Blackguards, I agree with prophet, no amount of disguise or hiding or spell can cover that aura....the aura of a Blackguard should make a pally feel ill, it is that strong. Of course, the reverse would be true also, a pally's goodness would be sickening to the Blackguard as well.

[Foomanchu]

I like the idea of having to worry about people finding out your evil but I also think that you should be able to mask it with an item also. I like the idea, but at the same time i think people finding out who's all evil will result in mass murders lol

[Quadhund/Greenhouse]

I say no masking it. Why? 1) Because it would probably be hard to implement and 2) because people want to be able to detect and not be detected. If you dont want to be detected, stay away from good guys. If you need to infiltrate get someone that isnt evil or is a friend of theirs. If we are gonna play this way, we might as well play it to the extreme. Hell, I dont even care if you spam detect evil/good. In the end it means jack*&^% because unless you have RP behind it, you cant do squat anyways.

[Spooks]

Hmmm Well to balance out the not being able to cast Detect alignment at will... why not make the "block" a Spell/wand/whatever or a potion. That way people will need to go out of their way to keep up the guise...

[prophyet]

To clerify the PnP Blackguard - of course they get the known aura of evil which makes them appear as promenent as a cleric when detected.

But what I was getting at is that they have an actual physical aura - at third level they gain Aura of Despair that causes all enemies around him to get a -2 to saves.

Even if his 'evilness' could be covered up, he will still be soaked in an unnatural aura that everyone around him can feel and are physically and emotionally effected by, much like the Paladins aura of courage.

Granted that is just PnP but I think that Black Guards are just beyond trying to hide their evilness, even the dumbest farmboy milking his cow would know that the Blackguard behind him isnt someone he would want to share his lunch with.

[Daresh]

Beware the metagaming and abuse potential - on dungeon crawls, not dealing with players.

I was on a server that had a Detect Evil tool for paladins. The paladins learned to use it in front of every door in every dungeon - it would tell them what was waiting for them! Then they would buff up/prepare/retreat as indicated.

Everyone should remember than NWN is not PnP Dungeons & Dragons, and never will be. It's a combat oriented computer game. A good group of players, like ours, can do wonders with roleplaying, but some of the PnP rules just aren't translatable to NWN.

[Manshin]

That is not neccessarily a bad thing. Part of a Paladins strength should be to know if evil lurks just beyond a door, after all, he certainly wont have good listen or spot skills. The trick will be how precise the detect is. What would be ideal is if the Paladin activates his detect evil and a message says "You sense no evil near by." or "The tinge of evil is at hand." As opposed to "Succubus (lawful evil); Bebilith (choatic evil), Joe Blow (neautral evil).

[darkvoid]

I have a question. I'm not familiar with the PnP version of anything so I'm not exactly sure how it works. But my question has to do with spamming. If you can sense something, can you consciously stop sensing it and then sense it again whenever you want to? So I reckon what I mean is shouldn't the pally/BG be able to sense evil/good at all times without having to activate anything? I know this probably won't be implemented like this, and I don't want it to, I'm just curious.

[thogrimur]

I agree with Manshin in thinking that the use of the ability in the dungeon is just smart play, but not if the detection is revealing the exact type of creatures behind the doors. It SHOULD only reveal that a presence of evil is detected from beyond them. Is this how this would work? Or would the pally know the specific creatures and/or number of creatures? That isn't right (IMO)

I guess I just need to see the tool in action to understand how it is going to work as I still have this truckload of questions...

Is there a # of times per day the pally/bg would be able to use the ability? Or would it be a where ever whenever (which I think is how the PnP handled it)

If the paladin uses the ability will he automatically be given the names of any evil characters within his radius or cone shaped area of effect?

Would having a 'hide alignment' spell or item to block the detection mean that the paladin senses no evil from the character or would it mean that he senses nothing at all about the character? (whether good or evil?)

And (IMO) simply having the spell or item to block the detection would not be enough - the spell or item would have to be 'active' at the time in order to block the detection - right? Because if evil characters are going to be able to go out and get an amulet of non-detection then what is the point? Everyone who is evil will quickly obtain an item able to block the use of the detect evil ability anyway. Unless perhaps the item has a limit (set # of uses per day as well as charges) I am sure that all of this has been thought out, but I am just curious to see how it all going to work.

[DM Richard (Retired)]

"I have a question. I'm not familiar with the PnP version of anything so I'm not exactly sure how it works. But my question has to do with spamming. If you can sense something, can you consciously stop sensing it and then sense it again whenever you want to? So I reckon what I mean is shouldn't the pally/BG be able to sense evil/good at all times without having to activate anything? I know this probably won't be implemented like this, and I don't want it to, I'm just curious."


In PnP it is during concentration only that they can sense it and it has risks. It doesn't identify why a person shows up as evil or give away any information other than how strong of an evil they are. Those casting a spell are limited by duration of the spell and number of times they can cast it in a day. Palidins on the other hand have it as a natural ability unlimited times a day usage. This is just information for you because you asked and has nothing to do with NWN.

[prophyet]

In all honesty, a detect evil tool wont really change game play outside of making it official that Paladins can detect evil.

As much as I would like paladins to detect evil, I really just want an official answer as to whether they are allowed to or not.

The only ones who really care are the evil guys who dont want anyone to know that they are, the other evil guys give me tells about their evilness even before my character officially detects evil. I never understood why so many players were so outraged OOC when my paladin was trying to detect evil. That is where the RP comes in - how it is played out. Whats the point of being evil if you never do evil acts and no one discovers at an inopportune time that you are evil?

And the whole arguement about evil alignment verses evil intent is absurd. If the character has an evil alignment, he has evil intent - alignment is a guideline the player is supposed to follow when the character is being played, not just some meaningless hardcode needed to choose a prestige class or use an item.

[prophyet]

daresh said:

Beware the metagaming and abuse potential - on dungeon crawls, not dealing with players.

I was on a server that had a Detect Evil tool for paladins. The paladins learned to use it in front of every door in every dungeon - it would tell them what was waiting for them! Then they would buff up/prepare/retreat as indicated.

Everyone should remember than NWN is not PnP Dungeons & Dragons, and never will be. It's a combat oriented computer game. A good group of players, like ours, can do wonders with roleplaying, but some of the PnP rules just aren't translatable to NWN.

I have played Paladins on servers with this tool also, and the only real merit for the tool is RPing. With the spawn based encounters, a paladin cant sense anything that hasnt spawned yet - like ambushes or things that spawn close or behind the party. I found very little use for the detect tool in just the average dungeon crawl - farming mission. Much like here, all I used it for was to anger the other players by finding out their characters were evil.

And as far as metagaming goes, anyone who has been on the server for any time will already know whats going to spawn when and where. There is hardly a dungeon on the server where I couldnt tell you what is going to spawn in what room and what buffs you are going to need to survive it.

Unless of course it is a DM assisted crawl, and in that case, the players would be very stupid to openly meta-game in the DMs presents.

[thogrimur]

"Much like here, all I used it for was to anger the other players by finding out their characters were evil."

This gives me yet another question...

Does the 'victim' of a detect evil/good spell have some sense that they have just been 'probed'

[kyle9]

This is interesting. Because a lawful evil character can be played more good then a chaotic good. If they are calculating they give the appearance of and upstanding member of the community. Where a chaotic flies off the handle. Now I made my char LE. To take the assassin class. I base him on a Special Forces/Sniper. I intend to play him as a friend to all elves and maybe even a guardian of the townsfolk. But he also knows what war is, and is nnnot afraid to use terror. He'll take scalps, cut off ears for a necklace, crucify a whole town. But willl be the nicest person in a social setting.

Now do I wanna be judged cause of an alignment? I'm not sure.

K

[Jerico]

Note on covering up Evilness.

If an the Item route is attempted, then you will have to take into account the Level of the Paladin.

Jerico, Sharita, and Hiedrich (havent seen in a long time might have misspelled) are some of the most known Paladins in the lands and some of the most powerful as well. To think an item could cover up a lesser PC would be rediculous.

On the other hand a 1st level Paladin detecting one of the greater evils in Cormyr would be as well.

Remember Paladins are suppose to be choosen by their gods to stand at the forfront of the battle against evil. If they are to battle it, they should be able to detect it.

As for just using the ability for no reason. I think a good RP reason for it is needed before the ability is used. Most Paladins I know already follow this ideal. When a situation comes up that would call for a reason to check a person most of us use this "*Jerico studies the person intently" Thereby detecting evil or not.

Most reply to a Tell wether they are or not. There are some that dont. Then there are some that come up with, "I have stuied the ways to mask my alignment".

Those I just ignore.

As for Blackguards, their evil is suppose to be huge. Have you ever played any of the Blackguard modules. If you havent you need to before you play a Blackguard. There is a series of three modules that insure you play a Blackguard to your best. From killing a couple that are to wed to slaughtering a school house to gain the heart of an inocent, these guys are dark. And their greatest enemy you face.... A Paladin with a Holy Avenger.

So blackguards, I highly suggest you look into this module. It will show you a Blackguards heart.

I have attempted to play a Blackguard on other servers. I had to prove myself on one server, that I could be dark enough to even play one. Having achieved the DMs approval, I was squashed by the Paladins on the server who learned of my ways and hunted me down and the rest of my 8 player War Howler clan of Orcs and 1/2 Orcs. I graciously played the villain and allowed myself to be perma killed.

[DM Richard (Retired)]

"And the whole arguement about evil alignment verses evil intent is absurd. If the character has an evil alignment, he has evil intent - alignment is a guideline the player is supposed to follow when the character is being played, not just some meaningless hardcode needed to choose a prestige class or use an item."


Actually we have several players on FRC that have neutral alignments that by PNP Detect Evil should show up as evil when checked.

[Gusty]

I would say the people have spoken on this one.

[kenny26]

yes, but with restrictions.
nwn hasn't included 90% of the divining spells in dnd, nor has it included the equally large pick of spells to counter these divinition spells (hide alignment, non-detect, and all that).

it would be no fun if the evil chars were unable to hide their true nature from the many paladins that patrol the towns.

[termite73]

I like the idea of Pallys getting their Detect evil finally. Just two questions though... 1) how would this work retroactively? I mean Pally characters already higher level will just get the ability added? We won't have to rebuild our whole character will we? 2) If people are worried about spam detects why not just make it a # or uses per day just like the Turn undead ability? sounds a logical solution to me.

[Gordy101st]

I don't mind this being given to pallys.

At the end of the day Evil doesn't necessarily mean unlawfull. If a paladin stands there screaming "you're evil" at my character, he'll get a raised eyebrow and a severely sarcastic and tactful mocking in front of whoever is there

There'd be plenty of 'evil' commoners about. Its not like they have the easiest life

[Thrym]

I wanted to ask how the official detect evil mechanic, or to be more specifically, the way to bock it works.

After reading the thread I somehow thought that allmost everyone was for hide alignment spells etc., and so I assumed we had them, but yesterday a DM told me we had not (after I got detected, which could have easily been avoided if I had just known I could get detected, by making a single step out of a certain cone).

Oh, and someone asked if persons know it if a Paladin uses detect evil:
It depends if you have Spellcraft. Detect Evil is a level 1 (or 2, not quite sure) spell that you should be able to identify with a DC 16/17 Spellcraft check.

[Spooks]

So can I get an official update?

Is it going to be included, and can it be blocked if it is?

Any other official stances on this will be helpful.