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Post by brian333 on Jun 23, 2008 1:41:03 GMT -5
The way skills are allocated in NWN vs. P&P cause a great number of ranks to be allocated to NWN skills which would be much lower in P&P due to the need for more versatile skillsets. I believe this has lead many players to totally ignore the skill bonus in favor of the diceroll for their RP.
(Not saying this is good or bad, just saying it's the way it seems to me.)
Question: How much does perform skill matter when deciding to tip or not to tip the bard? (Not asking for tips or even recommending you give any whatsoever!) How much when deciding if your character liked the performance?
Hypothetical situation: The Blue Bard vs. Darky
Blue Bard has +8 bonus to his skill roll. Darky has +80. Both roll a 1 on the die.
For Blue, (by my reasoning,) this results in a marginally less than average performance, for Darky this is a concert-level performance with which he wouldn't be happy personally, but to the untrained masses it would be an excellent performance.
But in both cases PC's will comment on the awful performance.
Again, in my opinion, the dicerooll _plus_ the skill determines the success or failure of the performance, and while Blue Guy's going to give poor performances, he'll never be awful due to his +8 skill, while Darky, on his worst day, will still give an excellent performance.
Is it better to rely strictly upon the diceroll? In my opinion this is fine for bards, who would see the performance in relation to previous performances, and know Darky's having a bad night, while seeing the technical flaws in the best of Blue-Bard's performances. But I think that all the non-trained would see when Darky rolls a 1 is Darky's skill being so great that even his worst play is superior to anything he can do himself, and while Blue Bard's roll of a 1 would be less than average, it still would demonstrate competance in his play.
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Post by Munroe on Jun 23, 2008 8:17:39 GMT -5
If you're concerned about people reading only the dice, a better example would be "What if they both roll a 2?" While D&D (and by extension NWN) doesn't consider a Natural 1 on a skill check a failure on the part of the person rolling the dice, players frequently do consider it a failure. If Darky had +1 million Perform and rolled a 1 in your above example, some consider that a failure. A string broke, he put his hands on the wrong piano keys, hesitated and had his voice crack, had a harp string come out of tune (horribly!) on him while playing, etc. The bonus to the check indicates his mastery of the skill, the roll indicates his execution of that mastery in that instance. Even on a 2, he's a master, but on a 1 something catastrophic happened (his hands spontaneously exploded?!) and the performance was marred. I personally like fumbles in my games because there's always that minor chance that "something" could go wrong. But fumbles on skill checks are not a standard rule. According to D&D PHB 3.5e (page 63): | To make a skill check, roll 1d20 and add your character's skill modifier for that skill. The skill modifier incorporates the character's ranks in that skill and the ability modifier for that skill's key ability, plus any other miscellaneous modifier that may apply, including racial bonuses and armor check penalties. The higher the result, the better. Unlike with attack rolls and saving throws, a natural roll of 20 on the d20 is not an automatic success, and a natural roll of 1 is not an automatic failure. |
Most people, when just making skill checks to demonstrate proficiency in RP in NWN (at least from my experience) still tend to consider Natural 1s and Natural 20s as Critical Fumbles and Critical Successes. That's especially true in cases where there's no set DC given for something. If I emote *tumbles down the road doing handsprings and backflips* and I roll a Tumble check with a result like Tumble Check: 1 + 15 = 16, I'll usually assume I flubbed something up and landed on my back. That's even though the DC to tumble past someone *IN COMBAT* is only DC 15. That really shouldn't be the case for skill checks though. With a check result of 16, even though it was a Natural One, I should be able to not only tumble past a combatant but do so without giving him an Attack of Opportunity, so I should be able to do tumbling out of combat with no problem. (Though technically I think Lydia only has a +5 Tumble modifier, so she'd actually have a bit more trouble than the example.) I do rather like the ability to fumble skill checks though, because everyone messes up sometimes. 5% chance versus perfect performances guaranteed all the time? I like the five percent chance. To more generally address the roll reading, I think in cases like Lore and Perform people tend to look at the die roll more because the skill is so broad. Lore should be a half-dozen Knowledge skills and Perform should be specialized by type of performance--Perform (Dance), Perform (Sing), Perform (Lute), Perform (Oratory), Perform (Piano), Perform (Comedy), and so on. Since they're all grouped into one general skill, people will give less weight to the high modifier because the sub-skill that's being employed may be so much lower. The way NWN handles craft skills is closer to how it should be handling Knowledge and Perform. Craft actually has many more subcategories as well (alchemy, leatherworking, bowmaking, etc) so craft isn't on the mark either, but at least it's broken down into three sub-skills instead of being one generic craft skill. So even though I have +11 Perform on Lydia (I think), I might not consider all of that Perform (drums) so if I emote playing the drums and roll Perform Check: 7 + 11 = 18, I may not consider that a very good Perform check because I don't consider that Lydia has any ranks in Perform (drums). That same skill check I might have considered proficient for Perform (dance) since I think she has more points into dance than drums. (I haven't actually quantified her by individual Perform skill, it's just a rough estimate I make at the time.) If I have her sing a song or something and do a Perform roll, I personally think of that as the roll for the singing not the lyrics, because the lyrics can be judged on their own by reading them, but the singing is something immaterial so that part is best represented (to my mind) as a roll. |
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Post by ShadowCatJen on Jun 23, 2008 9:55:40 GMT -5
When it comes to Perform in a multiplayer online environ like NWN I sort of go with an amalgam of how to deal with it. And it concerns a lot of IFs and some OOC factors. IF the player is not one that has the talent for writing lyrics (or has a character that dances instead of sings), but would like to RP that they are performing, I take the roll into full consideration. A 1 is certainly a fail, no matter how high a modifier they have. Like said, strings can break, voices can crack, feet can trip over one another. I go with a basic 15 for an overall DC check and go from there as to if my character liked it or not. IF the player is one who does write lyrics or storytells I pull more on the actual subject matter and let that override any performance dice roll. As an example to this: I had my character sing a very suggestive and lude song. I rolled my perform at the end and made a decent check (I think I rolled a 17 at the time), however, a prudish sort of PC didn't like the song at all and found it quite disgusting. But this was perfectly fine as the player was simply going with how their character felt about such "horribly lude and not for the ears of the civil" lyrics. It might have been played very beautifully, but the content of it didn't fly with him.  It engendered some RP which can be far more appreciated then any tip giving can. On the opposite end, I've had my character hear a really good set of lyrics and end up completely ignoring the dice roll because of it. In most situations when it comes to things like Perform or Persuade, you should always have roleplay override dice rolls. IF I am not certain if my character liked the lyrics or subject matter I wait or ask for a performance roll and sway my character's thoughts on it based on how good/bad the roll was. But this is only if "I the player" (OOC) can't decide if "my character" (IC) likes it or not and only then. But that's just the way I handle that situation myself. |
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Post by brian333 on Jun 23, 2008 11:01:07 GMT -5
I actually agree with this concept, and generally, (but not always,) take it upon myself to emote the particular fumble my performer made. (Recalls the day I broke a string, and as soon as I started playing, broke another! Damn Cormyr for not having a decent supply of cat-gut!)
Shadowcat also makes good points. A skilled pole-dancer isn't likely to find an appreciative audience in a church, after all.
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Post by SlothfulCat on Jun 23, 2008 11:31:17 GMT -5
That would depend on the church...
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Post by Masterbard Alyster Darkharp on Jun 23, 2008 13:51:50 GMT -5
Not to be a rules Nazi or anything....but...
the way skillchecks work in 3.5 rules are as follows:
A 1 when added to your skill modifier is your modifier +1, not a fail.
This means if a skill has preset DCs, and a DM isn't available to set a DC for you to hit...you get whatever your modifier +1 is. If your modifier is 3, and you roll a 1. you hit DC 4 which I believe a very bad performance. If you have a 50 modifier, and roll a 1, you hit a DC 51, which is enough to make someone who is friendly in attitude towards you step into the path of an oncoming red dragon to save you.
However....
If I tried to say...play my harp behind my back in a DMs presence, and they gave me a DC of 60, that 51 fails and I botch the roll.
You can look this up all in the players handbook in the skills section or on the d20 hypertext document.
There are some people who can perform under such pressure that they can pretty much -not- fail short of someone throwing knives at them while they play behind their backs. I've seen video of some pretty amazing feats of skill with an instrument.
Being a bad performer and having a bad night go with the territory of being low level though in my opinion. Just because Darkharp is good -now- doesn't mean he has always been. If you don't believe it ask some of the oldies. I've been paid to leave places instead of getting tipped. I've had DMs take over bartenders and throw me out of places. I've been heckled by players to the point where I stopped my performance and left. Thankfully though, those days are far behind me!
EDIT: Sorry..I didn't notice that Monroe had already pretty much said all that.
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Post by ancientempathy on Jun 23, 2008 15:08:22 GMT -5
This reminds me of something very important...
Think we can have a shrine to Sharess somewhere? Lots of polls everywhere too
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Post by ShadowCatJen on Jun 23, 2008 15:23:58 GMT -5
*takes the prerogative and smites Ancient for being a guy*
... men...
*offers the smiting stick with the Restriction: Female Only stat on it to any other lady takers*
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Post by ancientempathy on Jun 23, 2008 15:28:21 GMT -5
No birthday gift for you!  |
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Post by ShadowCatJen on Jun 23, 2008 15:31:42 GMT -5
What? Smiting you was my birthday gift! *snerks and runs*
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JCrux
Old School
Posts: 603
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Post by JCrux on Jun 23, 2008 16:04:25 GMT -5
This reminds me of something very important... Think we can have a shrine to Sharess somewhere? Lots of polls everywhere too Perhaps Ancient's PCs need priestesses of Sharess to help them with their *coughs* performance issues. Just kidding dude. ;D ;D |
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Post by Munroe on Jun 23, 2008 16:05:42 GMT -5
Not to be a rules Nazi or anything....but... the way skillchecks work in 3.5 rules are as follows: [SNIP] EDIT: Sorry..I didn't notice that Monroe had already pretty much said all that. Yep, I said that but I still like Critical Fumbles on skill checks. It's not 3.5e rules, but a 100% chance of success seems kind of obscene. Fumbles at least allow for a chance to error. It's still a 95% chance of success. I'm not sure how I feel about Critical Successes though but if I had Critical Fumbles I'd probably go for Critical Successes too. When I was reading your post, I kept thinking "I posted the 3.5e rule on rolling 1s and 20s on skill checks." This reminds me of something very important... Think we can have a shrine to Sharess somewhere? Lots of polls everywhere too While I love Sharess and would probably take up her worship if I thought she existed, I don't really understand how this thread reminded you of her. |
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Post by ashaffer on Jun 23, 2008 17:35:45 GMT -5
This reminds me of something very important... Think we can have a shrine to Sharess somewhere? Lots of polls everywhere too While I love Sharess and would probably take up her worship if I thought she existed, I don't really understand how this thread reminded you of her. Two words: Pole Dancers...  ;D |
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tbone
New Member
If Drow+Spider=Drider => Spider + Orc = Spork?
Posts: 46
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Post by tbone on Jul 2, 2008 11:30:06 GMT -5
I also like the 5% chance of failure. Stuff happens.
Another thing that I haven't seen mentioned in this thread (nice thread and nice question, btw) is that the skill score SHOULD be a guideline for the performer as to what they're capable of.
For example.. a 1st grade piano student is not going to start off with Rachmaninoff.. well, in MOST cases anyway. Likewise, a Bard with 4 ranks in Perform is not (or at least should not in my opinion) be performing extremely complex, evocative pieces. Just like a character with 10 Charisma shouldn't claim to be a master of the arts of persuasion or a 4 Tumble character emoting astounding acrobatic feats (unless of course they're RP'ing their abyssmal failures... which is perfectly fine, and can be a great RP starter.)
Anyway, yeah those are my thoughts on it. Yes the Roll is important, but I think it's the players responsibility to play reasonably within their skill level. And, at the end of the day, Role play definitely trumps Roll play.
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Post by ShadowCatJen on Jul 2, 2008 12:20:42 GMT -5
*nodsnods* What tbone said there.
My character is multiclassed as a rogue/bard. As a result she has less ranks in perform then someone like Darkharp who's a straight bard, even though my character has more levels then his.
Because of this I always RP it that Myn's musical talents are below that of Darkharp's and she takes pointers and cues from him. Where as Darkharp is capable of playing several different instruments (harp, piano, lute, ect.) my character is only good with one (the yarting). Oh, she tries her hand at a few others just to gain familiarity with them, but to play them well enough to perform just won't happen anytime soon.
Sooo, yup! Fully agreed on that statement. ;D Most certainly a player's responsibility to reflect their skill ranks through their RP.
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Post by ancientempathy on Jul 2, 2008 15:54:58 GMT -5
While I love Sharess and would probably take up her worship if I thought she existed, I don't really understand how this thread reminded you of her. Two words: Pole Dancers... ;D She got it |
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It engendered some RP which can be far more appreciated then any tip giving can.
;D 
