Helmets!

[kenny26]

after reading the disguise thread, i felt like creating another thread to adress another side of the same issue.

players wearing helmets should not expect to be passed by in the streets with noone recognicing them, if they can forget that fact themselves.

i'm refering to players typing *grins* *smiles* or *glares* while wearing a helmet.

i'm not flaming anyone, i know even the best can forget that they're wearing a helmet.
i'm just reminding people.

and one thing that did please me very much: jargo had gotten a helmet and was wearing it in town. then he saw seril (silencer_nate) in town and walked up to him and said hi.

he in turn said hi and then asked who was under the helmet.
he not only remembered that my face was covered by it, but also that my voice was probably muffled by it too.

so to players: roleplay wearing a helmet and remember how bulky they can be.

[Quadhund/Greenhouse]

I know you have made a comment to Hrothgar before about him making a facial feature emote and you not being able to see it because of the helmet. So since then, I have stopped making the facial feature emotes because I realize that no one can see them. I do so enjoy when he makes an insulting comment and people assume that he is joking when he really isn't. It is essentially the cheaters way of having an expressionless character while allowing the character to have expressions when you want them to. Now people can argue that he shouldn't wear the helmet all the time, but I tell you, Hrothgar takes it off only to : eat, drink, and flirt with the ladies (i don't know why he always feels like it is necessary to take off the helm in order to flirt). But yeah, helmets should be roleplayed even though they just seem like a standard piece of armor. I know Vind used to make fun of him all the time because his spot and listen skills were inhibited .

[soulfien]

As I said in the other RP section, hoods are not masks. Hoods hide your hair while masks hide your face. Combining the two is as effective as a helmet. If someone is standing in front of you then your hood will not cover your face (unless you pull it down over your face in which case you'd be blind).

I've seen COUNTLESS players scream that their face is hidden when there is someone standing directly in front of them.

It bugs me.

[theseeker]

its because thats what the shadow hood says it does

[soulfien]

Never seen a shadow hood. I was referring to the ordinary run of the mill hood.

[Quadhund/Greenhouse]

Of course Soulfien what you say would be true during the day, however at night a hood would likely cause enough shadow over ones face in order to hide their appearance. If one gets close enough to a hooded character as well then they should be able to tell who it is.

[DM Justicar - Creator of FRC]

I will just say that characters, like people have five senses.

I would ask if anyone has ever had an experience where they have seen a friend, or a well known associate in a costume, possibly one that covers their entire body, but due to body language, smell, sixth sense, you just KNEW it was them?

This is NOT an excuse to metagame, but I just wanted to point this out as I think it might be valid.

Certainly expert (assassin/rogue) types would be more likely to cover their tracks and ward against discovery.

Also, there are smaller details that might also give the person in disguise away... a similar limp, an uncovered mole on the hand, smell (once again, heh), etc. that may be governed by the wisdom, intelligence of the person "disguising" themselves.

If a player has their face hidden by a helmet, then I say they probably should not include facial expressions as emotes until they emote *flips visor to reveal a toothy grin*... but if it is a shadowed hood, bear in mind that in broad daylight, or even good torch light, this will not cover a characters identity or emotions.

Anyway, that's my partial take on it... feel free to disagree.

[Ixiume]

If you were turly trying to hide from somone a mask whouldent do it in my oppinion you whould need a hole new outfit most Pepole see you in the same old outfit same color same shape and whut not so a new mask whould hide yourface but not your garb or armore so i whould have to agree with kenny26

[tskfrc58]

Wouldnt it be so very nice to have two states on your average field helmet? A closed visor state, and an open visor state...

That way you could swap off your helmet for the open of closed variety of it.

[kenny26]

there aren't any helmets with an open visor...
the only way to ever be able to see a helmet with an open visor would be to pick one of the special CEP heads that look as such.

but then you create another problem because the open helmet with the face showing will be your head and you can't rmeove the helmet.

i can understand why bioware chose to have all the helmets conceal the char's face completely. all the different heads have different shapes and sizes and it would be impossible to make one 3d model of a helmet that would fit all the heads perfectly with the face showing.

[Islodain]

I agree, many people forgot thier helmet is on I think. The one we saw the other day kenny26 was one of those I think, spitting and smoking a pipe with a helm on?

*grins under his helm and sticks out tongue*

[prophyet]

Just because you have a helmet or hood on, doesn't mean your face is covered. The visor could be up, and the hood doesn't have to cover your face.

Of course, that is if you have visored helmet of course. Otherwise I have no real point I guess.

When Hierich is seen in his church robes and hood, his face is supposed to be clearly visible, but the game graphics cant portray this.

[Misha Aogail]

I just would like to point out that only men can effectively wear masks and get away with it. There are no female masks, which makes a hood/mask combo not work quite right... 'Course I'VE found an in-play way to hide my face while wearing a hood. And it could be seen as legit too. Sometimes you just have to use that grey matter between your ears to get stuff done.

[manyasone]

Justicar:

Also, there are smaller details that might also give the person in disguise away... a similar limp...

Poor melkroth could never get away with a disguise without magic. First of all, he's got a limp and relies on his staff when not under the effects of some magic spell that increases his strength, endurance, or dexterity. Second, despite the muffled voice problem that comes with a helm, his voice is quiet recognizable.

Now, the cool thing is that, with access to spells like "alter self" (not in NWN *pouts*) or "Polymorph Self", or "shapechange", you can easily change your appearance from small details like hair and eye color, to big details like race, ethnicity, height, and weight.

[kenny26]

i generally assume all hoods and helmets to conceal the person's face, 'cause i'd risk upsetting someone in disguise if i assumed that their visor was open...

if you wear a hood and your face is visible, you need to RP it by writing *smiles under the hood* or *looks at [someone] from under the hood*

this indicates that your face is visible since you do face emotes, and people will assume that your face is clearly visible even though you wear the hood.

and if someone in disguise is using face emotes, they're just asking to be spotted...

[Keetena]

If you know a person well you can discover such things, if I see Jargo always using the same shirt type with or without helmet and I know his two rapiers well, as well as his balance and tremendous dextery while walking... Can't I recognize him? The matter to me is the same... common sense, if someone don't know you let's say that he or she can't recognize you when you hide your face, but if knows well I think you have two options, let yourself be recognized (if in case) or ask politely to that person roll against a bluff check - of course this isn't the better thing to do in the middle of a roleplay, but sometimes is the only.... I myself was in a situation about a time ago, I was attacked by cyricians and one of them has a very peculiar way to talk, in a suspect place (the judgement of Tabatha) that same character talked loudly and with eloquence the same way, and of course the same voice... can't I recognize the person? I let the door open in a post earlier but since I have no interest to decide some plots (even some minor ones) cause this isn't my place, some players can't think our characters are ignorant to some details - prefered weapons, manners, cloth colors, races, all these are relevant aspects... of course in plot decisions just a DM can say if you recognized someone . this is my opinion

[flesch]

NWN couldn't allow any helmets to pysically show the face....this made for some pretty ugly helmets that basically nobody would wear.

In reality (if you can call it that) I don't think many helmets would do that great a job of concealing you...that's not what they are intended to do! I would almost say it's a safe assumption that anyong in a helmet is still fairly easily recognizeable. A hood or mask may be different, or if they intend to hide their identity, but that all depends on the situation and the character.

If someone grins with a helmet on, I would assume the helmet the player invisions the PC to be wearing would be open in the front. Don't assume NWN graphics are actually what PCs look like.

[Quadhund/Greenhouse]

When I think of the helmets in NWN, I picture them mostly with concealed faces. I would think that most would have a face that could open and close, so if the person wanted their face exposed, they could do it, if they don't, then they don't have to. If someone does a face emote while wearing a helm, I guess they can see your face (perhaps they have the face plate open or perhaps they dont even have a part covering their face). So I guess the new rule should be, if you face emote while wearing a helmet, then people can see your face. However, my rule is always ask if I can see their face (or recognise them) in some way.

[Manshin]

Some helms have visors, others dont. If you see a suger loaf helm (looks like a bucket with eye holes) Good luck telling who is wearing it. Some of the helms look like they could open, others dont. Helments similar to a basinet helm (The one with the pointed noses, or animal shaped noses) probably would have sliding visors. Point is, I think it should be assumed that it is down unless the player answeres your tell, explaining that it is up. One exception to this is when the player is drinking a potion. It HAS to be up then, showing other players who is the wearer. Dont be afraid to just ask.

[kenny26]

the reason for creating this post was mostly to remind people that they cannot just assume my face is visible when i'm wearing a helmet.
yes, if i do a face emote, indicating that they can see my face, it would only be logical to respond as such.

this thread is kinda old, and i think it served it's purpose once, reminding people not to act blindly on the information they get from hovering the coursor over my char, and instead acting according to what they would reallistically be able to percieve.

[flesch]

manshin said:

Some helms have visors, others dont. If you see a suger loaf helm (looks like a bucket with eye holes) Good luck telling who is wearing it. Some of the helms look like they could open, others dont. Helments similar to a basinet helm (The one with the pointed noses, or animal shaped noses) probably would have sliding visors. Point is, I think it should be assumed that it is down unless the player answeres your tell, explaining that it is up. One exception to this is when the player is drinking a potion. It HAS to be up then, showing other players who is the wearer. Dont be afraid to just ask.

If you think about this post...some helmets not having an opening at all, etc.....with all this realism and talk about hiding your identy with a helmet and other ways a helmet should affect a character, how's this for a reality check? ......'How Can You Drink a Potion With a Visor Over Your Face?'

So if some helms cover your mouth, you would have to take them off to drink a potion. If you were truly concerned about being in this realistic environment...I dare you to refrain from drinking potions while wearin a helmet.

Just keep that in mind while being so critical of everyone's RP style

[kenny26]

actually, with my char so focused on defense, i almost never drink potions in combat (of course i drink a potion of clarity if the situation calls for it).
i use healing kits to heal any damage i sustain once i've killed my enemies.

i'm just talking about preventing metagaming here...
i know people drink potions while they wear helmets in combat and it's always been that way in this game.
in dnd helmets aren't as common because there are close to no magical helmets available to pcs, so that was never a big problem.
bioware just didn't think about that when they decided to make magical helmets so common.

i told you already why i made this thread, and that it's served its purpose. that was last year...

[soulfien]

Actually, there are tons of magical helms available in PnP and any PC can wear a non-magical helm- just has to buy one. Players never buy helmets for their PC's because they simply never think about it.

And if you still don't believe me about there not being many magical helms, let me point out that in PnP, characters are allowed to create their own magical items or hire spellcasters to do it for them.

[kenny26]

i looked through all my sourcebooks for examples of magical helmets and found less than ten official magical helmets.
anything you create yourself is houseruled in so that's not really an argument that could be used in this conversation, because it only expresses the views of your DM.

my point being, in dnd unless you find a helm of brilliance, there's no real reason for not selling it and using the gold earned to buy something more useful.

instead of helmets, in dnd most chars use magically enchanted headbands and circlets (headband of intellect or circlet of persuasion), and their faces are rarely covered up unless they choose to do so with some purpose in mind.

i DM in a group of dnd gamers and there is only one person in the party wearing a helmet. the rest wear either headbands, circlets, bandanas or other kinds of headdresses that do not cover up their faces.
also, in dnd you do not rely on potions to be your primary source of healing. this is my argument why it is plausible to be able to drink potions in combat, because in 90% of the cases the char will not be wearing a helmet to keep him from doing it.

bioware decided to make lots of magical helmets, and make potions the primary source of inexpensive healing, which is why you see lots of chars drinking their potions while they wear their helmets and there's nothing you can do about this so just get over it...

[Quadhund/Greenhouse]

ANd I am just going to have to throw in ... what about straws?

[soulfien]

Well, it's all about roleplaying- If a player is concerned about having an idea rejected by the dm then he doesn't need to play the game. At least that's how I feel when I dm. I'm just there to fill in the blanks- the players make the story. If they're boring then the adventure is boring. I always have a goal in mind and I push the PC's in that direction and the rest is up to them. It's then time for them to be creative.

Anyway, PC's that don't wear helms are very succeptable to a multitude of problems. This doesn't mean they will succumb to them in every adventure, but they should understand that if and when those things come up (and I DO have an evil mind) they're gonna be wishing they'd bought a helm too!

[Booze Hound]

quadhund said:

ANd I am just going to have to throw in ... what about straws?

it always made me laugh back when Hroth was concealing his identity and he would use a straw in front of people who didn't know who he was. try and get an image of a burly fighter dude slurping a milkshake through a straw through his helmet lol