Sabremoe
New Member
Sabre-noob
Posts: 26
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Post by Sabremoe on Oct 13, 2004 7:05:07 GMT -5
Well it all started one day when Sabremoe was walking around in a sorcerer's robe, when he came across a few players expecting to be regonised right away and his fun spoiled.... but no! They treated him as a stranger and eventually was left without knowing who the hooded figure was. Best RPing at work =D
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Post by Forum Administrator on Oct 13, 2004 7:58:28 GMT -5
Indeed, and a job well done. This is a perfect example of keeping In-Character information IN-Character. ;D It's hard always to be perceptive enough and refrain from letting an unplaced comment slip out when you see a friend pass by. People mostly tend to look at the hovering character name, and immediately after talk to them without giving it any second thought. It takes alot of practice to try and "look at your environment with your characters own eyes". Does your character see that hovering name above the other persons head? Of course you don't. All you see is a robed figure wearing a hood covering his entire face, and thus, you're in no position to give away the hooded characters true identity. Unless, of course, you roleplay approaching said character and either ask him to remove his hood, or do it yourself forcefully. Cheers, DM Bassa
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Post by prophyet on Oct 21, 2004 4:27:43 GMT -5
That isnt as easy as it seems to stay incognito, today a character was running through town shapechanged as a wolf. Now that was an obvious disguise, and I ran through town chasing him shooting arrows at him before he could maul a citizen.
But just because someone is wearing a hood, we instantly have to pretend we don't know him? If it is a character that we are familiar with, he would have to make a conscious effort to distort his voice and mannerisms. These would require roles if he wanted to keep up his ruse.
Obviously if you see a cloaked figure darting through the shadows, you wouldnt instantly recognize who he is. It is a far harder challenge to keep your identity secret when you are conversing and interacting with others of a differing levels of familiarity.
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Sabremoe
New Member
Sabre-noob
Posts: 26
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Post by Sabremoe on Oct 21, 2004 8:11:48 GMT -5
Yeah, if Sabre was wearing his helmet, it'd be pretty easy to regonise him that way, along with his hideous (or disgusting, as Honey put it) orange and blue trademark colours =) But I agree, it requires effort from both sides to make it work.
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Post by DavidBluth on Oct 22, 2004 0:34:20 GMT -5
It is hard to have a good disguise, especially when a persons trademark is there hidden face. Natharry is never without his hood, but he makes no attempt to hide who he is. If there were a way to disable the floating name,not just because of disguise, but newbies addressing you like they've known your guy all there lives. Though sometimes a character is supposed to know that stuff, for valid RP reasons, but that is pretty rare without them already knowing that person as someone else.
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Post by Retired DM Gallin on Oct 22, 2004 0:47:50 GMT -5
Obviously, you will know right away who you are talking to, and for the vast majority of what I've seen, people have done a great job staying in charecter and playing what they see from the PC's eyes, not the computer monitor. And yes, when you are speaking to a disguised charecter you are familiar with, the proper checks are in order. This is where the PC dice bag comes into play Some good ways I've seen to spot a disguised charecter are: Search vs. Hide Concentration vs. Persuade (If they attempt to convince you through words that they are who they claim) Search vs. Bluff And anything else you agree is reasonable. Also, I must make a mention about shifters in here as well... As most of you know, my favored PC charecter is a shifter, and at the moment, I am the only one of the class on the server. I do not know what future Shifter players will do, but personally, I am keeping my Shifter identity separate from my Druid identity. To be Continued.......
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Post by Retired DM Gallin on Oct 22, 2004 0:53:16 GMT -5
If you see a shifted charecter, treat them as though they are the animal they are shifted as. Normally, you will act hostile by default, depending on their form, but if they are acting friendly to you, you may act friendly to them as well. The key to all of this is Role Play. Once you see the player actually shift, you can safely assume that they are a doppleganger, changeling, or whatever. I have seen some good Role play on this, but at other times I have seen poor. A wolf running around town is probably something you would shoot at. It just seems common sense unless you are given a good reason not to. Wolves are dangerous by nature, so attacking on site is justified. I will not name names, but I was helping some players on the server, and they didn't seem the least bit surprised when a Red wyrmling shows up and starts helping them by breathing fire everywhere. Poor Role Play....Anyway, that was only two people, and for the most part, you are all extremely good role players. Thanks for making this server so much fun to DM!
~DM Gallin
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Post by DM Justicar - Creator of FRC on Oct 24, 2004 5:57:35 GMT -5
WOW... well said...
D&D is a fantasy setting.
I think what has always defined it as "great fantasy" is that we DO hold it to average human comparison...
That said, I agree with Shimmer on this about 150 million percent (heh). The average wolf may = TARGET to the "hunters" in the village, but how would they feel if an Umber Hulk showed up! When I say hunters, I am refering to the average folk around town who fancy that they have a bow!
Righto?
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Post by Gordy101st on Dec 1, 2004 8:42:16 GMT -5
I normally try running to a purple knight and screaming umberhulk as well as hammering the Gong /DM "Its.. huge.. *pants* Horrid... its eyes.... *shakes head*" Gives DMs a chance to flex the purple knights muscles
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Post by Silencer Nate on Dec 1, 2004 9:46:58 GMT -5
Heh! Sometimes a hostile nature isn't always the way to go. If my character saw a wolf, I'd roll animal empathy and try and escort the wolf out of the city. If it were a wyrmling, watch out...here come the arrows.
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Jacob222
New Member
Convert or fall forever...
Posts: 82
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Post by Jacob222 on Jan 9, 2005 13:04:29 GMT -5
Suprised Logout hasnt spoken on this being that he lives in disguise and does a very good job *points like the angery monkey from family guy* but i will get you one day!!!
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Post by manyasone on Jan 9, 2005 16:24:01 GMT -5
lol
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Post by Gaurdian on Feb 2, 2005 20:09:35 GMT -5
hehe yeah the only problem I have seen is so many people are disguising in clothes taht look similar to thier usual attire I find myself asking OOC (are wearing something different) or sending a tell to them lol. although I did mistake an NPC for a PC once the NPC just kind of walked past as I was runing by, so I sent the player a tella sking them if htey were in redmist lol. they weren't went back later and got a better look at the NPC and felt stupid but it was kind of funny.
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Misha Aogail
Old School
Player of: Torian Burrfoot, Misha, Whisper, and Oriana Gant
Posts: 324
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Post by Misha Aogail on Feb 14, 2005 16:12:42 GMT -5
One thing about diguises... Why aren't there any masks for the ladies? It's kinda hard for Tori to wear a mask when it's kinda really OBVIOUS she's not masculine... Just wondering. Not that she had much trouble with her new outfit and just a hood hiding her identity, but there is only so much you can do with that. Or the helmets. I did have a couple of things 'prepared' in case someone tried to look under the hood, though... One thing I did like was the fact that Cormac decided to roll a spot check against my hide instead of metagaming during our time in Waymoot. Of course there are quite a few people (I could mention names, but I won't) that just go by the name floating above people's heads, and that's so annoying. ESPECIALLY when your character's trying to hide their identity.
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Post by soulfien on Feb 14, 2005 16:38:42 GMT -5
I've made it a habit to not look at the character name- it's easy to do when you have to hit tab or move the mouse to see the name. Basically, if I can recognize the pc without the name then my character can too. Heck, I've even started up a conversation once with the wrong pc because they were wearing the same armour as the one I was looking for!
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Post by thogrimur on Feb 14, 2005 16:54:13 GMT -5
Good habit to make...for those who are hardcore I have the answer for you! Go to the Options menu, select Game Options, then Feedback Options, and uncheck the 'show mouse over feedback' box. This disables all the hovering names and changes the whole world! It does still allow for the tab to highlight objects. And it still allows conversations to float up for easy reading. But it absolutely eliminates the temptation to metagame... It also makes it more difficult to tell what monster that is up ahead in the shadows, without getting close enough to examine. Which makes sense as well to me, as until I encounter these beasts I wouldn't know what they were called. It is much harder to play this way. I have only just discovered this option myself...and have also struck up conversations with those I 'thought' I recognized! heh heh. Anybody else tried this out? No way to enforce anyone of course, but give it a shot and see what you think!
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Post by DM Richard (Retired) on Feb 14, 2005 17:22:58 GMT -5
Nice!!! I'll have to check that out for my character account.
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Post by Spooks on Feb 26, 2005 17:26:38 GMT -5
In response to Soulfien's post... *sigh* I have a character going thr route of an assasin and was givne a job... IC and OOC all I got was a description of who i needed to kill. No names or anything. So I went out, looked for em and saw them. So I Telled em and asked for PvP rights, they agreed and I stalked em for a bit. I skipped a step in the PvP process but their was no harm done really and I raised em out of gratitude for such a good experience and went on my way... only to find out that I had killed the wrong person >_<. Lol i dont know if this is quite the same, but hehe...
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Post by Talus on Jul 29, 2005 22:53:56 GMT -5
Obviously, you will know right away who you are talking to, and for the vast majority of what I've seen, people have done a great job staying in charecter and playing what they see from the PC's eyes, not the computer monitor. And yes, when you are speaking to a disguised charecter you are familiar with, the proper checks are in order. This is where the PC dice bag comes into play Some good ways I've seen to spot a disguised charecter are: Search vs. Hide Concentration vs. Persuade (If they attempt to convince you through words that they are who they claim) Search vs. Bluff And anything else you agree is reasonable. Sorry to dredge up an old subject but I am still not very clear on this. And with all the disguised characters running around lately I thought this might need reviewed.(myself included occasionally goes disguised) Seems that bluff vs. Wisdom is the current accepted check among players. The reason I quoted this prior post is that it is from a DM. No where does he mention Wisdom vs. Bluff. I was wondering if we can get a DM ruling on this so that there is no question on what the rolls should be. I don't think Wisdom is a fair check against bluff. I do like the Search, Spot, or Listen check against Bluff for detecting someones voice or Mannerism. Sorry for the even more lengthy discussion this might bring about. Oh oh just thought of something else. Should the disguised play emote that they are changing there voice in the first place or if the character is disguised should we just assume that the character is making an attempt to disguise their voice?
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Post by Aodhan the Unusual on Jul 30, 2005 7:37:17 GMT -5
It should be noted that the voice is changed before the beginning of a conversation - ie. *in a low, sultry voice* or *in a harsh whisper* - otherwise no one will know they are infact disguised, and thus can be identified by their voice. If someone else comes into the conversation, just make a reminder to them and the people you are talking to. It's not that hard, and the extra 30 seconds it takes to make these notes can really make the difference of any attempts at disguise.
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Kharn597
Old School
PCs: Tenchi Yamato; Katha; Danny Tanneseph
Posts: 461
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Post by Kharn597 on Sept 10, 2005 15:46:08 GMT -5
Okay, we run into some confusion last night one which roles to use. The dm I was playing with used for the physical disquises, wis vs Hide and then for lieing and such, wis vs bluff. Then when i encounter another player later that night, he wanted to use spot vs bluff for both. I thought what the dm had us doing was correct, but just wondering for when I encounter a player agian, what are the correct checks for physical disquise and then lieing or disquising one's voice?
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Post by prophyet on Sept 10, 2005 18:40:14 GMT -5
Okay, we run into some confusion last night one which roles to use. The dm I was playing with used for the physical disquises, wis vs Hide and then for lieing and such, wis vs bluff. Then when i encounter another player later that night, he wanted to use spot vs bluff for both. I thought what the dm had us doing was correct, but just wondering for when I encounter a player agian, what are the correct checks for physical disquise and then lieing or disquising one's voice? If I were DM, and hey I am! I would use the following checks for the following acts: Bluff checks for the following deciets: *Lying - Counter with Wisdom Check(plus modifiers for knowledge of subject) *Disguise Voice(perform may be used if available) - Counter with Listen Check *Disguise Appearance - Counter with Spot Check *Feign activity -injury - Counter with spot or healing -death - Counter with spot or healing, on close examination Search -different persona - Counter with Lore check Persuade checks for the following acts: *Seduction - Counter with Concentration (or no attraction to gender) *Convicing Arguement - Counter with Concentration Taunt checks used for the following acts: *Intimidate(physical bearing) - Counter with Disipline Check *Threaten(Psycological threats) - Counter with Concentration Hide in Shadows check for the following acts: *Lurking - Counter with Spot check, (closer examination Search) *Trailing - Counter with Spot check *Lose Unwanted Follower - Counter with Spot check Move Silently check made for the following acts: *Trackless steps - Counter with search check (rangers get bonus on both checks) Pick Pocket Check is made for the following: *Planting Evidence - countered with Spot check As always, I must state that this is my humble opinion and does not necessarily reflect the opinion of any other DM or the concensus of the DM body in general. Sincerely, @@@@8/
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Post by DM Valkyrie on Sept 10, 2005 21:35:06 GMT -5
*points to DM (formerly known as Prophyet)'s post*
I rather like that guideline....
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racestark
Proven Member
R-E-A-D-A-B-O-Okay!
Posts: 241
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Post by racestark on Sept 12, 2005 13:03:21 GMT -5
Move Silently check made for the following acts: *Trackless steps - Counter with search check (rangers get bonus on both checks) Shouldn't they get a penatly if they're in a city area or the like for a seach check? Or at least negate the bonus for search? Trackless step doesn't work in a nonwooded area so maybe the bonus for search shouldn't? That is unless your ranger levels are a mutliclass for a bounty hunter character or something like that.
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Post by Spooks on Sept 12, 2005 14:24:05 GMT -5
I Disagree with these two.
The first one, should apply only if you are trying to look like someone different. If you are merely hiding your identity, I feel it should be under the Hide skill.
And Trackless step shouldn't be move silently because it doesn't matter how loud you are. If someone is tracking you, it should be, like Hide: where you can cover your tracks. or Discipline, to show that you are disciplined enough not to walk and leave tracks.
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C'tair
New Member
Today is the first day of the Rest of Your life... Not Much to look forward to, is it?
Posts: 85
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Post by C'tair on Sept 13, 2005 11:30:28 GMT -5
from what i know, rangers don't get any class bonus on search. they get a bonus on spot and listen against their favored enemies, and this is independent of the environment they are in.
i thought that 'disguise appearance' would only apply when someone is running around in a mask or something like this and tries to alter his normal and recognizable behavior. wearing a helm, so that no one sees your face, can hardly count as a disguise.
interesting to know would also be, under which circumstances you simply know that the person is wearing a mask, even if you're not interested in determining who's behind it. i remember that someone has mentioned before, that it's no normal behavior when you run around and glare at everyone you come across to spot if they are masked, and who it is that tries to disguise his identity. seeing that there are people here with a spot of 20+, i imagine it to be very hard to mask yourself in a way that prevents them from seeing it when they look at you for the first time.
hm...i must admit that i have slight problems to see how anyone who's not a ranger or a druid or some kind of specialist in tracking, can hide his tracks at all. when they can't see all the tracks they have left themself, how can they hide them? however, the PHB states that people can hide their tracks when they move with half of their normal movement rate. in this case the DC for following the track is raised by 5. The DC's and a table of possible modifiers are given under the description of the tracking feat in the PHB. hope that helps.
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Post by prophyet on Sept 13, 2005 23:34:52 GMT -5
I Disagree with these two. The first one, should apply only if you are trying to look like someone different. If you are merely hiding your identity, I feel it should be under the Hide skill. And Trackless step shouldn't be move silently because it doesn't matter how loud you are. If someone is tracking you, it should be, like Hide: where you can cover your tracks. or Discipline, to show that you are disciplined enough not to walk and leave tracks. I would use these checks as they are because the disguise appearance check is use when the chararater is trying to look like some else - although not particularly a specific person. Just hiding in with the background or blending in with the crowd so as not to be noticed, I would consider that Lurking which I would use a Hide check for. As for Trackless step - with out survival, a lot of this is left to personal opinion. And trackless step is the attempt to move with extreme caution. Move Silently is also a check to move with extreme caution. They just match up closer in my head. As always, I must state that this is my humble opinion and does not necessarily reflect the opinion of any other DM or the concensus of the DM body in general. Sincerely, @@@@8/
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Post by Spooks on Sept 14, 2005 12:05:25 GMT -5
The Disguise check should, IMO, be hide, because you are using your ability hide something.
This is mainly because of what I do with clotho. I don't want to look like anyone. not like the celebrity, not like random person A, I just do want her to be recognized as her. If I were to throw a sheet over myself and walk by my mother she wouldn't know it was me unless I said something.
I see Bluff as you are trying to lie to someone. And when you are lieing you GIVING something that isn't the truth.
When i disguise clotho I dont want to give them the truth, I don't want to give them anything. I want to look like noone, so I'm not trying to bluff about who I am, I just want to put on something noone's ever seen her in, and walk through town. I am hiding who I am, without providing another identity. I am anonymous. I don't want to convince them that I'm someone else. I just dont want them to know anything about me other than that I am there. When I start talking I would submit to bluff, but I am just hiding everything, except my presence there.
I can't believe just becoming anonymous is bluff. I believe it is hiding, if anything.
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Post by Laurk on Sept 14, 2005 12:29:40 GMT -5
The reason Hide doesnt work for this is because of what the skill represents. Hide is your ability to use your surroundings to blend in and remain unseen, your quickness and flexabilty to bend into unusual shapes to fool human perception. Granted, im sure the skill intells your characters use of camoflague and knowledge of enemie's awareness, but in the end, its a physical skill. That is why it is Dexterity based. Wearing a disguise, though you are "hiding" your identity, you are doing so with your personality and wit. Being able to disguise your voice, having the charm and or wit to convince others you are not you. The ability to bluff others into not looking "too" closely at your face. These are Charisma based, and thus fit the Bluff skill far more closely then the hide skill. Although, perhaps perform would be relevant as well. Perform, if I am not mistaken, is not just for music, but intells acting and showmanship well. Perhaps players should be able to use either of these skills to disguise themselves, depending on their character.
On the other hand: when it comes to spotting a disguised person, I think that there are a few skills that should be relevant, and the choice should be up to the person who is doing the detecting. If the perpatrator is using a fake voice, a player might do a listen check. If they are wearing a mask, a search check might be relevant (like finding the seam in a wall which indicates a secret door, a mask may have tell-tail signs of being fake.) For other genralalities like body language and mannerisms, a Spot check is the most relevant. Also, how well a player knows the person in disguise should have a +2/-2 modifier involved. Aquanances would be unmodified. I think players should use their best skill to make the check, and the terms should be agreed upon by the two involved. A disguise should be relativly difficult to pull off, I dont think just anyone with no training or charisma should be able to put on a mask and infiltrate where they choose with ease. Granted, those who throw on a hood and lay low while gathering supplies shouldnt be pestered, but if they go and start interacting with characters who have been around the block a few times, such checks should be made.
ONe last thing. Wisdom should never be the counter check for any skill, because you cannot put Ranks into your Wisdom, so it is unfair. Instead, use a Wisdom based skill, like spot or listen.
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Post by Talus on Sept 14, 2005 13:28:19 GMT -5
Well said. I like these ideas alot.
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