Request Invisiblity Instructions

[brian333]

I ask this because I wish to perform better. This is not an indictment of any of the players involved; all were helpful in answering questions I asked ooc and via tells, even though I'm almost certain I was annoying at the time.

What are the rules regarding detection of an invisible person, (friendly or otherwise?)

In the event I was searching for clues as to what happened within a darkness spell after the spell faded. I assumed my character was alert and actively searching when I saw a see-through PC on a horse near me.

I don't know what spell was used to make the PC invisible, but when he appeared I assumed I had made an engine-based 'Listen' check which opposes the 'Invisibility' spells. I shouted to those nearby that I heard something invisible. The invisible PC asked me what I heard, and I responded via tells, "A Friggin' Horse!"

To me it was obvious that a horse, no matter how invisible, would still be audible, and an armored man astride a horse would be even more audible. (I've been around both horses and armored men, and once I was near both! Okay, I'm a nerd, I went to a Renaisance Faire.)

What happened beyond this point is not germane to the discussion, but I want to know if I was within the rules to out this invisible person? He made no issue of it in the event or afterward, except that I specicfically asked if I had acted properly and he pointed out that I outed him without the use of 'See Invisibility" or 'True Sight.'

I assumed the engine revealed him to me because I'd succeeded on a 'Listen' check, and when we disccussed this afterward I suggested adding 'Silence' to his 'Invisibility.' The invisible person pointed out that just being near the invisible person would reveal him, silenced or not. (Honestly, after six years of NWN, I have never tried this, so I don't know how the engine handles it.)

The 'Invisibility' spell specifically states that a 'Listen' check may reveal the presence of, if not the exact loation of, an invisible person. The 'Listen' skill states that an armored man walking is a DC 5 check, (my character would have to roll a 2 or less to fail,) but does not specify a check for a mounted armored man.

My character has a very low 'Listen' skill, but has put skill points into it, and has the 'Blind Fight' feat, which would allow me to engage invisible PC's in combat at a mere -4 attack penalty.

So, did I act properly in this case? Should I have done something dfferently? What is FRC's position on the Roleplay vs. Engine applications of the 'Listen' vs. 'Invisibility' issue?

[Quadhund/Greenhouse]

If an invisible player comes within 5 feet of another player, they will be autodetected (if they are not moving silently).

Invisibility does not negate sound. If you detect someone in such a fashion, you have heard them. You may have heard footsteps, or in this case hoof beats. You also may hear armor. This does not allow you to know who it was that you heard, nor what they look like. You would not detect the invisible person if they were in stealth mode. But either they failed their move silent check or they were not in stealth mode.

[shimmerxxx]

I've never been clear on this myself.

So...

If I'm standing in the middle of a flat field at midday then someone suceeding a stealth check appears invisible on the engine, even though there's no way they could hide realistically (unless they are Using HIPS). So the game engine doesn't allow me to see them but IC I can.

If an ally cast invisibility on themselves them then they appear translucent, in which case the game engine shows them but I can't see them IC.

Is that right? *looks confused and grins goofily*

How do I know when someone is partially concealed, but still visible? Is there is a difference in the graphics? If so can someone post examples of the two for comparison so I don't go round spotting people that my PC can't see and ignoring people that he can see (or hear)?

If not sure I'll usually send a tell asking whether I can see that PC to the person involved, but in the heat of the moment, sometimes a judgement call is required.

Ta!

[ShadowCatJen]

If you don't know for certain if a person was invisible or just stealthing or whatever... ask them in tells. It's that simple.

If you only briefly have someone show up graphically for you on the screen, but not long enough for you to get their name, just emote that you heard something maybe and leave it at that.

[Quadhund/Greenhouse]

If a stealthed character is detected and they are in line of sight, they will show up as a normal looking player.

If a stealthed character is detected and is not in line of sight, then they will show up as slightly shaded.

Stealthed characters will not automatically be revealed if they are within 5 ft. of another player (so long as they succeed in their checks)

Invisible characters will be detected if they are within 5 feet of another player and are not in stealth mode or they have failed their stealth check. They will also be detected if See Invisibility or True Seeing spell are used.

Shaded characters are concealed in some fashion. This generally means you/your PC cannot see them clearly. Sometimes this concealment means that the character cannot be seen at all.

"If I'm standing in the middle of a flat field at midday then someone suceeding a stealth check appears invisible on the engine, even though there's no way they could hide realistically (unless they are Using HIPS). So the game engine doesn't allow me to see them but IC I can."

There is not much we can do about the engine. One also must consider the things in the world that are not represented graphically by the NWN engine. Because, most fields don't have well mown lawns.

[Grozer]

quadhund said:

Invisible characters will be detected if they are within 5 feet of another player...

But I think what needs to be clarified is what does a player do in this scenario? Are we clearly saying this 'detection' in completely a NWN engine thing and therefore should be ignored? That's my opinion but the DMs should make a ruling...

Since I was involved in this situation, let me provide some more details... I was standing still on horseback when Kasur walked by. Granted even if Ranan wasnt moving, the horse's breath might have given him away. However my issue with this scenario is had the 'engine' not hinted I was there, any minor sounds might have been dismissed with the numerous sounds that would be occuring within a bustling town, not too mention the attention would have been more focused on the large gathering of adventurers up the road. Kasur did roll a listen check, though I didnt ask him to and then proceeded to announce there was a horse or something to that effect (I dont recall the exact words). A second player approached, I still hadnt moved and this player got close enough so that I was revealed again. Of course then it was announced that there was a man on horseback.

OK so even if I go along with being 'heard' part, how does anyone 'see' what is exactly there? Anyway, no hard feelings on my part, Kasur and I were discussing things calmly via tell, trying to sort out what either of us could have done better, but I doubt we came to much of a conclusion.

[TermaForever]

Wish that had been better clarified before Adelius and Kyrion went charging in the direction of Redmist because they're understanding was that Ranan was here and now he was trying to run away...

BTW Running in Adamantine Full Plate hurts... ;D

[Grozer]

arakdemonblade said:

Wish that had been better clarified before Adelius and Kyrion went charging in the direction of Redmist because they're understanding was that Ranan was here and now he was trying to run away...

BTW Running in Adamantine Full Plate hurts... ;D

Well that's another point not for this thread, but I was rather shocked how easily he was identified. The rest of the people in town were up the road a distance, only the dwarf was right next to Ranan. I was invisible, cast one spell and immediately dashed for the gates around buildings so the dwarf is the only one that had a clear view of Ranan's back while he was on horseback and I am not certain they have ever crossed paths to know what he looks like... oh yeah and lastly Ranan was 50% concealed so he appeared ghostly...

Oh well guess notoriety has its price...

[TermaForever]

grozer said:

Well that's another point not for this thread, but I was rather shocked how easily he was identified. The rest of the people in town were up the road a distance, only the dwarf was right next to Ranan. I was invisible, cast one spell and immediately dashed for the gates around buildings so the dwarf is the only one that had a clear view of Ranan's back while he was on horseback and I am not certain they have ever crossed paths to know what he looks like... oh yeah and lastly Ranan was 50% concealed so he appeared ghostly...

Oh well guess notoriety has its price...

Oh don't get me wrong...at no point did we actually see you, know if you were really there, or which way you were going. We just heard 'Ranan' and went off at a run. I find it kind of comical in retrospect.

[Grozer]

arakdemonblade said:

We just heard 'Ranan' and went off at a run. I find it kind of comical in retrospect.

Yeah thats my point.. and dont worry no hard feelings.

[shimmerxxx]

Thanks for the answers, it's a little clearer now

quadhund said:

There is not much we can do about the engine. One also must consider the things in the world that are not represented graphically by the NWN engine. Because, most fields don't have well mown lawns.

*imagines Grumm in a farmer's field being tailed by Lidda dressed as a scarecrow*

[Quadhund/Greenhouse]

If you had cast invisibility and then placed yourself into stealth mode without moving, there is a good chance that he would not have detected you (i do think you get a bonus to move silent if you arent moving). There are many times when I place my PC in stealth mode while being invised just so i am not autodetected when getting within 5 feet of a player.

So if you were detected, then you were detected. What the dwarf actually heard would have been subject to debate, whether it was a horse or the creaking of armor, but he heard something.

Sounds like you were using improved invisibility. If this is the case, I believe 3.0 improved invis is supposed to be the same as 3.5 greater invisibility. Thus, technically, even after having attacked (or performing a hostile action), your concealment should have meant that you could not be seen. NWN substitutes concealment to basically allow the player to know that he was attacked by an invisible creature.

[Grozer]

No it was a simple invisibility potion but I had used an item to grant concealment before taking the potion.

Well I had always been under the impression that autodetecting someone while they are invisible is an engine thing and we are to ignore it. I guess I was wrong, at least I know how to play it going forward. Thanks.

[Munroe]

I can't speak for anyone else but in my game when I stand in a field there is grass up to my character's hips. The detail of the grass is one of those things that can be changed in the game settings. The max grass is several (2.5 or 3) feet tall and blows in the wind and parts when characters walk through it.

I have no problem with anyone stealthing in a field. The problem I have is when people stealth on the road. Roads, unlike fields of grass, usually don't have any cover. They're kept clear to allow for ease of travel.

[shimmerxxx]

wolfmunroe said:

I can't speak for anyone else but in my game when I stand in a field there is grass up to my character's hips. The detail of the grass is one of those things that can be changed in the game settings. The max grass is several (2.5 or 3) feet tall and blows in the wind and parts when characters walk through it.

I have no problem with anyone stealthing in a field. The problem I have is when people stealth on the road. Roads, unlike fields of grass, usually don't have any cover. They're kept clear to allow for ease of travel.

Maybe bad choice of words on my part then, I was thinking more



See what I mean? It's just as bad, if not worse than a road for finding somewhere to hide as there are no handy rocks along the side or bushes nearby. (Not that there are many places like the picture shown in the module, I was just giving a worse case example!)

[Munroe]

That's hardly a field. That looks like salted earth. :-P

Anyway, that looks nothing like NWN. See image below. The female human model in dark colours has grass reaching up to her torso and the male human model in dark colours has grass smacking his crotch. The dwarf there is rubbing elbows with grass. This is with the NWN graphics turned up and no overrides which would affect it.

[Aodhan the Unusual]

I'll dig up a picture (or take one) of Tori in the grass. If it wasn't for her hat, you wouldn't see her at all, it's that tall.

[Munroe]

You can see my picture alright, right? It's a PNG so I don't know if everyone can view it (IE used to have a problem with them but that was fixed in IE7). I didn't convert it to JPG because the compression might cause the visibility of the grass to decrease.

[shimmerxxx]

Lol, okay maybe I should have chosen an empty town square for my example instead of a field!

I was trying to say that it's a bit odd that someone can sneak around in broad daylight when there aren't any obstructions to hide behind.

I remember in Baldurs Gate you could only hide in shadows where there were actually shadows to hide in.

[Gordy101st]

A town square is a different one really. hide isn't just about hiding away from you in nwn its basically deception and a load of other things you can't do manually because this isn't pnp. You could emote that you're walking with a limp and towards the healer hut among a gaggle of commoners (which needn't be there on your screen) and roll hide and ms for it, but really who has the time to do 15 emotes and 30 rolls for sneaking past someone who eventually would just notice them or be pissed off by the spam. You could just walk casually without making eye contact or causing ANY reason for someone to notice you above anyone else who would be walking down the street. Could time their steps in with a guard around the corner so you don't even hear it. All these things are there in your mind when you're playing rogue but you simply don't have enough fingers/time to do it as anally as it deserves.

Even with the empty field a rogue wearing dark colours would just lay flat and unless you were paranoid and looking specifically for something to be wrong you could look straight past them unless it is literally a bald, perfectly flat section of earth. Of course everyone will now claim their characters to be pretty much paranoid, but really whoever does that for the fun of it and not for some metagamey advantage ?

Theres a million and one ways to IC the stealth game mechanics because they take into account that its not PNP and you can't emote kicking leaves up over yourself quickly before someone turns around and roll for it etc every time. And remember, it may be impossible for us to do in real life, but a rogue with 20+ dex who has trained in stealth for most of their lives would do things which simply are impossible for us as normal people.

[edit] having said this, I think emotes are an excellent idea for suddenly ducking into alleyways/being caught or coming out of stealth if you have the time to execute them. For the most part they ruin the whole idea of stealth. Simply knowing someone is there OOC colours what you do and it ruins the surprise for you when you find out that you've been overheard.

[shimmerxxx]

Good answer Gordy, that explains a lot.

Thanks!

[Gordy101st]

No worries at all. Its good to be able to have a levelheaded discussion about this because stealth and PP in NWN have been the source of so much OOC grief for me in the past when I've played rogue. This is the longest I've seen a thread about stealth and detection stay open, put it that way. haha

[Munroe]

Well, my theory is we can discuss it reasonably because half the rogues on the server are DMs, and probably half the non-DM playerbase have been in the DM chair in NWN or pnp at one time or another. Being able to discuss things is important so everyone can enjoy the game, and preferably without feeling that they are getting shafted by some game mechanic that does not work in their favour.

I know as a DM I gave Hrothgar a hard time about his stealthing back when he was a player and from what I saw his way of handling stealth has grown and I actually enjoy watching him stealth sometimes. Players that can't detect you with Spot/Listen can't hear your emotes in /talk channel so it's perfectly fine to emote stalking through the tall grass, or hiding in a shadow or whatever. This can allow the DM to know what you're doing when otherwise it would appear that engine-wise you're just standing there. If the other PCs hear you, they detected you anyway. Note that I only know this to be true with stealthing--occasionally I hear invisible people talking as a player.

[Gordy101st]

That must have been patched at some point. I'm sure I can remember talking to people whilst I was stealthed ages ago on an action server.

[Munroe]

Oh, you can if you go into stealth while they're present (and you don't have HiPS). They'll auto-detect you then and you can talk to them as normal.

[brian333]

I thank you all for the advice, opinions, and rulings. If this situation arises again I'll do my best to discuss it with the invisible player before shouting to the crowd.

In the event I did not call Ranan by name untill others had shouted it, and then assumed those with more contact with Ranan had made the identification when he revealed himself by casting a spell. After the event I participted in a discussion with those present, (some of whom I had told that Ranan was the attacker,) in which I stated that no-one had gotten a clear view of the attacker, and that it was no more than a guess that Ranan was involved.

I'm not certain how I'd have reacted in other circumstances; I've been both noble and base in the past in similar circumstances, but my goal is to improve my gameplay and to get along with the playstyles of others. I now have a better idea of what Cormyrians expect thanks to this discussion and thanks to everyone who has participated.

P.S. I never got a confirmation on the engine-effects of using 'Invisibility' and 'Silence' together. If anyone with the ability and the curiosity would like to experiment, I'd love to help and/or to see the results.

[teransouras]

P.S. I never got a confirmation on the engine-effects of using 'Invisibility' and 'Silence' together. If anyone with the ability and the curiosity would like to experiment, I'd love to help and/or to see the results.

If you cast invis and silence you wont be able to be seen or 'heard' by other players unless they have a means of bypassing invis (See-invis or Tree Seeing) OR if the person approaching you is toggled hostile, as hostile creatures have to make a will save to avoid becoming silenced, therefore a hostile action, canceling your invisability spell.

Silence also works to help with sneaking as you will never be detected by a listen check while under it's effects, spot is still able to find you though.

[EDM Neo]

teransouras said:

as hostile creatures have to make a will save to avoid becoming silenced, therefore a hostile action, canceling your invisability spell.

Actually, unless I'm very much mistaken, you only get a will save if you're the primary target of the spell. If you come into it's radius after it's already in effect on someone else, no save.

[teransouras]

Oh my mistake, no save required by the enemy, they get silenced automatically unless they resist it with SR or some type of spell protection (Mantles/Globes).

But it will still remove your invisibility since it's a negative effect.

[TwistedVision]

You would be surprised how little people notice things at a distance if they're even a little distracted. One of my hobbies is LARP (Live Action Rolpeplaying: for those who didn't know) and when you have a small gathering with people talking to each other in the middle of an empty field like that you can often get rediculously close to people before they actually notice you.

Even taking a little precaution like waiting until they're looking at something on the ground, or they all turn to look at one person speaking and the like can make the difference between getting seen instantly and being able to stroll at your leisure across the 100ft of totally empty field and put a knife to someones throat.

Even the people doing the sneaking surprise themselves at times thinking that they -must- have been spotted by now and yet the other people remain totally oblivious to whats happening.

If you check the PnP rules for Spot and Listen you'll see that theres an automatic -5 penalty associated for not actively looking and a further -1 penalty per 10 feet away that you are. At first I didn't think this was very accurate myself but when you've tried it and find you can do pretty well even if you're terrible at sneaking you start to realise just how little attention people actually pay.