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Post by ♥Zach♥ on Nov 25, 2006 22:47:22 GMT -5
Now reading on some sites how languages in the FR setting may be languages modled after languages in real life sparks somthing interesting, thats right folks a topic on lore to have a discission on ^_^
Common:
English
Illuskan:
Norwegian, Finsih, Scandanavian, Icelandic, Possibly Swedish
Chultan:
African
Chondathan:
Roman, Greek, Latin, Possibly Welsh?
Damaran:
German
Tethyrian:
French
What are your thoughts on this?
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Post by Munroe on Nov 26, 2006 12:11:39 GMT -5
I moved this topic from Lore of the Lands to General Discussion because it is a general discussion, not lore of FRC.
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Post by DM the Usurper on Nov 27, 2006 16:02:56 GMT -5
So what's Klingon?  |
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Post by SamuraiGoat on Nov 27, 2006 16:33:53 GMT -5
Gnomish?
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Post by ShadowCatJen on Nov 27, 2006 16:38:56 GMT -5
Personally speaking I don't really like acquainting RL languages with that of a fantasy realm. Yes, I do understand that because of the nature of the portals and whatnot there may be a chance that some Faerunian languages may very well be based on Terran ones. However, let me give tell of a situation that occurred before that makes connecting the languages a sore subject for me. Two players were playing elves. They took it upon themselves to start playing it that the elven language was French. Full out spoken French. Bad points: 1)Not everyone understands French, but according to the books my half-elven character (and anyone's character that understands Elven) should be able to understand them as they are supposed to be speaking Elven. 2)Using French in place of Elven is just plain tacky. 3)The two players refused to use the elven tokens on some grounds that there were too many people metagaming that they can hear what is being said. Well duh! That's why they have the tokens in the first place! If you don't want people to hear what is being said then take it to a private room. 4)They didn't even use proper French. They kept using Babblefish online to translate what they were saying. Anyone who's used Babblefish knows how horrible it is translating full sentences. It doesn't fix grammar, it just translates words. Good points: None. These two folks were just blockheaded about not wanting to use the tokens to the point that the DM crew had to issue them a warning.... if only to avoid the horrible slaughter of the French language. At any rate, another point on this is when I hear someone try to use a real life language in order to emulate something like Illuskan/Chondathan/Mulhorandi it does one very bad thing... it breaks the immersion. I like to keep my fantasy and reality separate from one another. If a character starts speaking Spanish claiming the language is Calimsh.i.t.e then it's ruining my image of what this fantasy world is. Now, on drawing parallels between the languages there are some very easy possibilities that influences in real life occurred. Just even looking at the various cultures on Faerun is a quick way to tell that. Calimshan and Mulhorand are obviously arabic and middle eastern based. Tethyr and Cormyr have heavy old European influences. Kara-Tur is straight out of our Asian culture, most predominantly Japan. Oh, and, uhm... ain't Klingons what you have to scrape off your shoe? ;P EDIT: Changed so it says Calims.hi.t.e and not Calimshite |
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Post by soulfien on Nov 27, 2006 17:07:23 GMT -5
wow! That's VERY tacky! Everyone knows Elven resembles Islandic!!!  *grins* That's the language they used on Lord of the Rings from what I was told. Whatever language they used it was a damn good reprensentation in my opinion. But yeah, I agree with you, CatJen. Use the tokens. |
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Post by DM Justicar - Creator of FRC on Nov 27, 2006 17:11:21 GMT -5
wow! That's VERY tacky! Everyone knows Elven resembles Islandic!!! *grins* That's the language they used on Lord of the Rings from what I was told. Whatever language they used it was a damn good reprensentation in my opinion. But yeah, I agree with you, CatJen. Use the tokens. Actually JRR Tolkien invented Elvish. I am not entirely certain of the rest of the things I am about to say but they are true to the best of my knowledge. He invented the entire language when he was a linguist at Oxford, I believe. He wrote The Lord of the Rings as a pilot for Elvish and as a bedtime story for his children from what I have heard. Anyway, just thought I would chime in with this. I might be wrong but I am fairly certain I am correct. Cheers! |
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Post by moulinous on Nov 27, 2006 17:38:42 GMT -5
the dictonary is in the Similliaron or something if you want to look at it...i have it somewhere on the book shelf but ummmm, that is way over there and i am way over here....
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Post by DM Justicar - Creator of FRC on Nov 27, 2006 17:40:05 GMT -5
the dictonary is in the Similliaron or something if you want to look at it...i have it somewhere on the book shelf but ummmm, that is way over there and i am way over here.... Get movin' ya lazy midget!  |
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Post by ♥Zach♥ on Nov 27, 2006 17:41:54 GMT -5
I own a DVD on the making of the lord of the rings and the writter J.R. many of this is left to speculation but somtink he modled Elvish after the Finnish language
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Post by Quadhund/Greenhouse on Nov 27, 2006 18:44:18 GMT -5
Tolkein's Elvish is an entire language in and of itself. I have a buddy that can speak it, and Enya sings one of her songs from the Fellowship in elvish (and she can speak it too).
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master
New Member
All Hail...Ugabuga champ!
Posts: 57
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Post by master on Nov 27, 2006 20:10:18 GMT -5
Tolkein's Elvish is an entire language in and of itself. I have a buddy that can speak it, and Enya sings one of her songs from the Fellowship in elvish (and she can speak it too). and thats when i would say "get outa the house" lol |
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Post by ShadowCatJen on Nov 30, 2006 16:09:51 GMT -5
Tolkien didn't just create the elvish language spoken in the books and movies. He developed several languages. He was, after all, a professor of linguistics and literature.
What he enjoyed most was to figure the etymology of words and dialects. Quenya, Sindarin, and Khuzdul (the Dwarven dialect) he all created by him as a study in the history of certain languages and how they may have come to be. By creating his own histories revolving around the languages he then started to get the ideas for the tales that all lead up to the Lord of the Rings.
For the movies they hired a pair of linguistic trainers who specialized in Tolkien's languages and made sure everyone spoke everything correctly. And, yes, some of the actors and singers did come off learning the languages. I mean, many of them were making the movies for the better part of two years, that's lots of time to learn.
*shifty eyes* ...... *lets some of her Tolkien geekhood show*
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Post by vercingettorix on Nov 30, 2006 16:45:38 GMT -5
*bows before Jens Knowledge*
In the London Library they have a recording of Tolkien reciting a passage in elvish. I am pleased to say that I heard it while I was there and it was really neat.
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Post by DM Justicar - Creator of FRC on Dec 1, 2006 0:49:00 GMT -5
*bows before Jens Knowledge* In the London Library they have a recording of Tolkien reciting a passage in elvish. I am pleased to say that I heard it while I was there and it was really neat. \ Yes, I confirm everything that Jen said as pretty much what I said with much more color and background. I wonder if this recording of JRR is available on the web anywhere? *goes to find it before anyone else has a chance* |
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Post by AnvilX on Dec 1, 2006 1:12:27 GMT -5
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Post by DM Justicar - Creator of FRC on Dec 1, 2006 1:15:48 GMT -5
Bastard! I was just gonna post this. ;D |
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Post by AnvilX on Dec 1, 2006 1:23:10 GMT -5
***Bastard! I was just gonna post this. *** ROFL !! Sorry Justi couldn't resist ;D |
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Post by DM Justicar - Creator of FRC on Dec 1, 2006 1:24:52 GMT -5
BTW... I studied old english in school... this sounds ALOT like that!
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Post by AnvilX on Dec 1, 2006 1:26:27 GMT -5
I remember seeing a special on making LOTR (before LOTR came out) and it said Liv Tyler learned and is fluent in elvish as well. She actually gave a short demonstration of it during the program.
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Post by DM Justicar - Creator of FRC on Dec 1, 2006 1:29:03 GMT -5
Plausible, indeed. I think her audio from the movie can be easily deciphered/detected in this. It also does sound like a viking language which as we know old English was basically Germanic until the French infusion.
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Post by Laurk on Dec 1, 2006 12:53:29 GMT -5
Though I agree we shouldnt try to stick words from foriegn languages in that we know, and stick to the tokens instead, I do like the idea of basing them off of Earth languages. The only reason is that is helps people who dont quite have the imagination to picture "new" accents in their minds a point of referance. For example, it is my belief that Rashemon is based off of Russian culture, so whenever I see a Rashemi berserker or a witch of Rashemon IG, I picture thick furs and a slavic accent. Giving them a parrallel to earth for me, helps me to immerse myself and get a flavor for the differant Faerunian cultures.
The whole using of words is not a good idea though. This is seen a lot with Kara-turan characters. You'll see them using words like "Domo" or "Oragato" or "Mr. Roboto", or saying "Hai" instead of yes. But the trouble is, for most of us our knowlege of asian language just wont hold up under scrutiny. So, we may as well use the token for all of our Shou... the exception is that I tend to use "Rokugan" words, such as Oni (demon) and Wu-jen (arcane spellcaster) these are fictacious anyway and made for Kara-Tur.
By the way, about Kara-Tur, there is confusion over this anyway because in 2nd edition, it was essentially China, and in 3rd edition it is primarily Japan. In 2nd edition, Shou-Lung is the imperial city. In 3rd, as far as i know... there is no Shou-Lung and really no imperial city. Its more like the Japanese waring states period where each of the seven major clans has its own ruling family... and their is no Shou-Lung or Golden Way. These things however are inextricably linked to Forgotten Realms, and so I refuse to let 2nd edition die in this concern. So, I mix the two. I consider Shou-Lung to be the center of the kingdome, and the seven clans to be provinces within. So essentially, I mix the cultures for purposes of explaining my characters homeland. This is another reason for me that trying to use Japanese or Chinese words doesnt make a lot of sense.
Laurk
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Post by Booze Hound on Dec 1, 2006 13:05:34 GMT -5
tough it is good that *some* similarities exist, I mean EVERY dwarf speaks with a Scottish accent! hehe
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Post by moulinous on Dec 1, 2006 15:16:30 GMT -5
I got your scotish buddy...i am a Irishman damm it!
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Post by Munroe on Dec 2, 2006 12:10:20 GMT -5
Oni isn't made-up for Kara-Tur, it's an asian ogre/demon that was appropriated for Kara-Tur.
I was not aware of any source on Kara-Tur even existing in 3rd Edition. My understanding is Rokugan isn't Kara-Tur, it's a different RPG entirely (Legend of the Five Rings) that was adapted for the d20 system. It is detailed in Oriental Adventures D&D suppliment, but that suppliment is not FR specific.
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Post by ShadowCatJen on Dec 4, 2006 16:27:37 GMT -5
I believe somewhere in the beginning of the Oriental Adventures sourcebook it does say that Rokugan is not connected with "any other world" but if a DM wants to use the book to fill in any blank spaces in a setting they most certainly could.
Which to me was a round about way of saying "Yeah, you can have this as a guideline for Kara-Tur, but because of licensing mix ups we really can't out and out say that."
I'll have to break out my copy of it to find the exact wording when I get home.
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Post by ShadowCatJen on Dec 5, 2006 11:05:27 GMT -5
Actually it flat out says it in the introduction on page 5: i.e. the setting given in the Oriental Adventures sourcebook is just what can be used if you're too lazy to make up your own setting. Considering that on the server we have the clans (Mantis and Scorpion) I can only guess that it's basically approved by the crew that sourcebook material from Oriental Adventures holds true as cannon on the server. |
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