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Post by sightblinder on Jun 9, 2022 22:47:28 GMT -5
Made ya look! I was just wondering if there has ever been any discussion about doing something to make the half-elf race more attractive as a race choice? I've heard many times that it just doesn't have much going for it. For instance, I think in Pathfinder they give the half-elf a +2 to dexterity. Has anything like that ever been considered?
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Post by Munroe on Jun 9, 2022 23:21:37 GMT -5
Made ya look! :D I was just wondering if there has ever been any discussion about doing something to make the half-elf race more attractive as a race choice? I've heard many times that it just doesn't have much going for it. For instance, I think in Pathfinder they give the half-elf a +2 to dexterity. Has anything like that ever been considered?
In Pathfinder (1e, which is the Pathfinder system most comparable to NWN), most races get better increases to ability scores. Humans get +2 to Any One Ability Score. Half-elves and half-orcs also receive this bonus. It's not specifically a bump to half-elves. Most other races get +2 to Two specific ability scores and -2 to another specific ability score. Half-orcs do not have an ability score penalty in Pathfinder(1e), just receiving the +2 to Any One Ability Score. Dwarves get +2 CON, +2 WIS, -2 CHA Elves get +2 DEX, +2 INT, -2 CON Gnomes get +2 CON, +2 CHA, -2 STR (Which is not bad considering they're size Small.) Halflings get +2 DEX, +2 CHA, -2 STR (Again, not bad considering they're size Small.) Pathfinder(1e) Half-Elf Racial Traits
The main bump that half-elves get in Pathfinder is the Skill Focus as a bonus feat at 1st level. It's not as general as the human bonus feat, but it is still a bonus feat.
That Multitalented there looks pretty good until you know that in Pathfinder1e your favored class always grants you either a +1 hit point or +1 skill point whenever gaining a level, so all they're getting from that is the ability to do it for two classes. (And prestige classes can never be a favored class, so it still can't be used for a prestige class.)
The +2 that half-elves get is not really a bump to half-elves specifically in Pathfinder, but a bump to all the races, as most races get +2 to TWO specific ability scores and a penalty to one, except humans, half-elves, and half-orcs with their single +2 to ANY one ability. (And aasimar, who have it the best with +2 to Two specific abilities, but no penalty.)
The half-orc is a very mechanically desirable race in Pathfinder1e as they removed its ability score penalty to Charisma. They still have Darkvision, and gain proficiency with greataxes and falchions, and treat any weapon with "orc" in its name as a martial weapon (instead of an exotic weapon).
I <3 Pathfinder1e. I just don't think it's a fair comparison to look at half-elves in Pathfinder1e without looking to the comparable increases made to the other core races.
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Post by malclave on Jun 9, 2022 23:34:32 GMT -5
Half elves get some of the benefits from their human blood, and some of the benefits from their elven blood. However, on FRC the human-side benefit (any favored class) is rendered moot because there's no multiclass xp penalty here.
It might be worth considering giving half elves bonus skill points as if they were humans, as compensation.
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Post by sightblinder on Jun 10, 2022 7:24:06 GMT -5
Well, the +2 to dex or however it worked in PF was simply an example of something that -could- work for half-elves on FRC. As Malclave pointed out, since there is no multiclass penalty on the server maybe it'd be worth considering giving the half-elf something to make them a more desirable race from a crunchy standpoint. Would there be a way to give half-elves and only half elves 2 extra points at character creation so that they could add that to whatever stat they wanted, similar to PF? Or a way to give them the extra feats that humans get? Would it be game breaking? I don't think so, but I'm not an expert on that sort of thing.
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Post by styxxbone1 on Jun 10, 2022 7:42:42 GMT -5
Furin only hates the Half-Elfish half as much as the Full-Elfish. Should be compensation enough! styxx
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Post by sightblinder on Jun 10, 2022 12:08:27 GMT -5
Maybe we should give half-elves tumble as a class skill...
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Post by Animayhem on Jun 10, 2022 17:49:02 GMT -5
First off I am not making any judgment on anyone's play style just mentioning what I have experienced in playing this game as a whole.
Many people take half-Elven to add longevity and language and that's about it. They focus on their human side and make no mention using it purely for build reasons.
In my time here at this server I have a met a few players/characters who actually role played this well.
I agree you really cannot tweak one race without looking at tweaking others.
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Post by sightblinder on Jun 10, 2022 18:28:55 GMT -5
I agree you really cannot tweak one race without looking at tweaking others. But no one said anything along those lines... Also, half-elves got "tweaked" in a bad way when they did away with the multiclass xp penalty.
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Post by simo2003 on Jun 10, 2022 19:22:44 GMT -5
The only thing that half-elves are better at than any other race is making an arcane archer with a decent Constitution score, heh.
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Post by Church of Bane on Jun 10, 2022 21:24:57 GMT -5
Pathfinder?
If we're going to do that we might as well use character creation rules in the 5E PHB. Half-Elves receive +2 to CHA, and two other ability scores of your choice get +1.
Half-Elves in 3.0 are fine as is. I think the only difference between 3.0 & 3.5 is +2 to Gather Information and Diplomacy checks.
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Post by sightblinder on Jun 10, 2022 23:17:24 GMT -5
I dunno, I think maybe a +2 to CHA -and- a +1 to two other abilities might be too much. I really don't think half-elves in NWN are "fine as is" just going by what people say about them. It seems pretty universal that -crunch wise- they are undesirable.
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Post by Animayhem on Jun 11, 2022 2:04:51 GMT -5
I dunno, I think maybe a +2 to CHA -and- a +1 to two other abilities might be too much. I really don't think half-elves in NWN are "fine as is" just going by what people say about them. It seems pretty universal that -crunch wise- they are undesirable. Yes but not everything is good crunchy.
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Post by MTGPackFoils on Jun 11, 2022 7:39:31 GMT -5
I dunno, I think maybe a +2 to CHA -and- a +1 to two other abilities might be too much. I really don't think half-elves in NWN are "fine as is" just going by what people say about them. It seems pretty universal that -crunch wise- they are undesirable. Everything doesn't need to be "crunchy". I play a Half-Elf Paladin of Helm (Keyleth) because that was the character idea I had. Not because of a stat, or a neat bonus, or a feature, or something added to the die roll, or a free proficiency in a skill, or a free feat, or... ...do you get the picture? Half-Elves are fine as is. If you start deviating from the 3.0 (or even 3.5) PHB then this is no longer about or tied to Dungeons & Dragons, and we might as well start over. Also you completely missed the reference that the +2 CHA and two +1s are from the 5E PHB, and that stat bonus for the Half-Elves in that edition is perfectly fine.
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Post by darthweasel on Jun 11, 2022 8:29:43 GMT -5
I am nit feeling particularly held back by playing a half elf either.
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Post by sightblinder on Jun 11, 2022 16:00:25 GMT -5
Everything doesn't need to be "crunchy". I play a Half-Elf Paladin of Helm (Keyleth) because that was the character idea I had. Not because of a stat, or a neat bonus, or a feature, or something added to the die roll, or a free proficiency in a skill, or a free feat, or... ...do you get the picture? Half-Elves are fine as is. If you start deviating from the 3.0 (or even 3.5) PHB then this is no longer about or tied to Dungeons & Dragons, and we might as well start over. Also you completely missed the reference that the +2 CHA and two +1s are from the 5E PHB, and that stat bonus for the Half-Elves in that edition is perfectly fine. I know everything doesn't need to be "crunchy". I also have a couple of half elf characters and I'm fine with them. The original post was merely asking if there had been any consideration made into ways to make them more desirable as a player race. The reason I asked this is because it seems a lot of people, on this server or elsewhere, find them to be a less attractive choice than most if not all other player races. While I don't make any of my characters based solely on how "crunchy" they are, it -is- and should be *A* consideration. One of the perks of being a half-elf in PnP is that they don't take a multi-class hit like the other races. In FRC this isn't a concern. I was merely wondering if perhaps something could be done to make the half-elf more attractive as a race choice. Also, since the multi-class xp penalty is not a part of FRC, it's already a deviation from standard 3.0 or even 3.5. Some call them "house rules".
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Post by MTGPackFoils on Jun 11, 2022 17:02:35 GMT -5
I know everything doesn't need to be "crunchy". I also have a couple of half elf characters and I'm fine with them. The original post was merely asking if there had been any consideration made into ways to make them more desirable as a player race. The reason I asked this is because it seems a lot of people, on this server or elsewhere, find them to be a less attractive choice than most if not all other player races. While I don't make any of my characters based solely on how "crunchy" they are, it -is- and should be *A* consideration. One of the perks of being a half-elf in PnP is that they don't take a multi-class hit like the other races. In FRC this isn't a concern. I was merely wondering if perhaps something could be done to make the half-elf more attractive as a race choice. Also, since the multi-class xp penalty is not a part of FRC, it's already a deviation from standard 3.0 or even 3.5. Some call them "house rules". How far do you want that Pandora's Box to be opened though? If you're going to claim that the removal of the XP penalty has broken the seal then what's next? ...be careful what you ask for. It would be a cascading effect.
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Post by malclave on Jun 11, 2022 17:41:07 GMT -5
I know everything doesn't need to be "crunchy". I also have a couple of half elf characters and I'm fine with them. The original post was merely asking if there had been any consideration made into ways to make them more desirable as a player race. The reason I asked this is because it seems a lot of people, on this server or elsewhere, find them to be a less attractive choice than most if not all other player races. While I don't make any of my characters based solely on how "crunchy" they are, it -is- and should be *A* consideration. One of the perks of being a half-elf in PnP is that they don't take a multi-class hit like the other races. In FRC this isn't a concern. I was merely wondering if perhaps something could be done to make the half-elf more attractive as a race choice. Also, since the multi-class xp penalty is not a part of FRC, it's already a deviation from standard 3.0 or even 3.5. Some call them "house rules". How far do you want that Pandora's Box to be opened though? If you're going to claim that the removal of the XP penalty has broken the seal then what's next? ...be careful what you ask for. It would be a cascading effect. That's why I floated the idea of bonus skill points when I mentioned the favored class (any) being moot. Currently, from a game mechanic perspective, a half elf has no benefits from the human side and less than half the benefits of an elf. A bonus feat might be going too far, but the bonus skill points would probably do nothing more than add some flexibility.
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Post by sightblinder on Jun 11, 2022 18:59:38 GMT -5
How far do you want that Pandora's Box to be opened though? If you're going to claim that the removal of the XP penalty has broken the seal then what's next? ...be careful what you ask for. It would be a cascading effect. I mean there are other examples of changes being made from the original 3.0/3.5 rules for FRC though. The rules on multi-class builds or the fact you can't take dev crit for example. As Malclave pointed out, something was taken away from the half-elf race, why not give something back? I personally think a flat +2 to dex would be good, and not game breaking. If I'm not mistaken the half-elf is also the only race that doesn't get a stat bonus isn't it?
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Post by malclave on Jun 11, 2022 19:22:29 GMT -5
How far do you want that Pandora's Box to be opened though? If you're going to claim that the removal of the XP penalty has broken the seal then what's next? ...be careful what you ask for. It would be a cascading effect. I mean there are other examples of changes being made from the original 3.0/3.5 rules for FRC though. The rules on multi-class builds or the fact you can't take dev crit for example. As Malclave pointed out, something was taken away from the half-elf race, why not give something back? I personally think a flat +2 to dex would be good, and not game breaking. If I'm not mistaken the half-elf is also the only race that doesn't get a stat bonus isn't it? Humans don't get stat bonuses, and all the other races get stat penalties to offset the bonus. A +2 to Dex would be a bonus to AC, ranged attack, Reflex save, and various skill checks. Probably like getting an extra 4 or 6 build points at character creation.
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Post by MTGPackFoils on Jun 11, 2022 21:32:51 GMT -5
Removing multiclass penalties and restricting multiclass options does not equal a stat bonus (or anything "crunchy") from a game mechanics pov.
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Post by sightblinder on Jun 12, 2022 0:02:07 GMT -5
Humans don't get stat bonuses, and all the other races get stat penalties to offset the bonus. A +2 to Dex would be a bonus to AC, ranged attack, Reflex save, and various skill checks. Probably like getting an extra 4 or 6 build points at character creation. I see your point. Not sure that it is *game breaking* but it was just one suggestion. Giving them the same bonus to feats as humans would work I'd think. Again, I am just asking if there is a way to make the half-elf race more desirable to players. I don't wanna break the game either fellas.
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Post by Asgardian Grey Hawk on Jun 12, 2022 14:23:35 GMT -5
Removing multiclass penalties and restricting multiclass options does not equal a stat bonus (or anything "crunchy") from a game mechanics pov. still a tweak to the standard. Is what he is getting at. And i personally think half elves are chilling the way they are. I personally dislike half elves as a concept in whole bet eh.
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Post by sightblinder on Jun 12, 2022 14:46:12 GMT -5
still a tweak to the standard. Is what he is getting at. And i personally think half elves are chilling the way they are. I personally dislike half elves as a concept in whole bet eh. Wait, chilling as in they are good as is, or chilling as in scary? o.0
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Post by Asgardian Grey Hawk on Jun 12, 2022 17:45:29 GMT -5
good as is lol
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Post by DM Sauron on Jun 13, 2022 13:10:50 GMT -5
Maybe +1 to DEX and -1 to CON?
Similar to the partial affinity to some skills (spot, search, listen) and low light light vision that half elves already receive.
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Post by malclave on Jun 13, 2022 15:14:33 GMT -5
I'd still like to see them get something from the human side. Otherwise they're just Elf Lite ("Less filling! Tastes great!" - dragon who sounds suspiciously like John Madden).
Although, now that I think about it, would any of these changes even work with "Enforce Legal Character" on the server?
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Post by MTGPackFoils on Jun 13, 2022 16:39:04 GMT -5
I'd still like to see them get something from the human side. Otherwise they're just Elf Lite ("Less filling! Tastes great!" - dragon who sounds suspiciously like John Madden). Although, now that I think about it, would any of these changes even work with "Enforce Legal Character" on the server? If that dragon was like Madden it would be named Johnearlmadden based on how other dragons are named. Nicknamed "Ol' Pinky" as it's skin would turn a shade of pink when using it's breath weapon. Then when it would be placed on as Magic card it's flavor text would be "BOOM! (followed by unintelligible babbling)."
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Post by MTGPackFoils on Jun 13, 2022 16:40:03 GMT -5
Maybe +1 to DEX and -1 to CON? Similar to the partial affinity to some skills (spot, search, listen) and low light light vision that half elves already receive. Nah. No stat adjustment.
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TrueBlueOriginal
Old School
Kira Pashar Divine Temptress of Sharess 💋
Posts: 414
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Post by TrueBlueOriginal on Jun 13, 2022 19:32:40 GMT -5
The only way I'd really be inclined to see half-elves tweaked is perhaps if they were given a boost to starting gold or gear. I don't really want to see the race changed mechanically.
They already get a partial boost to skills, saves, and low-light vision. It's my experience that the enhanced vision modes (low-light viaion, darkvision) don't work as well as they used to--particularly darkvision--but low-light vision is still an advantage over mundane vision. I don't know if it's worth a feat by itself, but it's probably worth half a feat.
I've been playing a half-elf for a decade--Kira is a half-elf--and I've had no issues with the race as-is. A lot of the advantages of half-elves are roleplay advantages, but those are advantages nonetheless. Notably, you can play elf-centric half-elves, human-centric half-elves, or half-elves that move between the two cultures. That's an advantage. That, and half-elven aging. Slower than humans, but not so slow as to be utterly stagnant. (Slow enough that Kira won't age out of her bombshell concept in my life-time.)
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on Jun 14, 2022 18:09:02 GMT -5
In about 16 years of FRC, I haven't heard any complaints about half-elves until this thread started, I am inclined to say that time it's self has spoken in this case.
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