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Post by Razgriz on Oct 28, 2020 19:08:36 GMT -5
After that other thread, I think it is more like the setting can handle evils of any kind, but the moment them or characters of any other alingment become outlaws, the limitations of the module design become too evident and can cause further conflicts and frustrations in the community.
Perhaps what FRC needs to do, is change the executions or crimes that lead to becoming an outlaw for meaningful time in jail. The more serious the crime, the more time a character has to stay in prison. Make it months, and in the extreme cases years.
If a player has no desire to ropleplay every day in prison, then they can roll a new character while the time in prison is served.
Perhaps Cormyr could build a large prison like Neverwinter had in the single player campaings of NWN and the criminals could be left there to RP among themsleves. Prison break events could be also planned to give convicts a chance to flee (though they would of course become outlaws if they escape).
Sure, executions can and should still happen, but more to that in a moment...
It may seem harsh for the players of those characters to be imprsioned that long, but when certain bad apples (now banned) mass murdererers were around for the infamous 2017 PvP frenzy that the server experienced, it all was so bad because these characters could not be stopped by any means. Someone would finaly defeat them in PvP? They respawned. They were executed? LOL... their buddies would claim the remains and resurrect them. It was madness, chaos and honestly, it made no sense. It all only lead to grudges and competitive play for the -wrong- reasons.
Now, considerable time in jail, even if perhaps it is not canon for a true version of Cormyr, should maybe be the new standard rather than going straight to the gallows or to be beheaded.
Not only would this IC penatly be more respected than the executions as how they are now, but it would give a sense of closure for all parties involved. The guilty characters would be away and nobody would be trying to settle the score either. Endless PvP circles would become slower and characters would not become outlaws as fast (Right now I think the counter is like 2-3 executions, but maybe I'm wrong).
As for executions, make them Permadeath, but save them for the most extreme cases, where it is clear that the criminal (of any alignment and class) has to die. Make them scary, make them sad, make them gritty and make them as definitive as they should be.
In turn, players of characters suffering that fate, and that can roll with the punches OOC, should in turn be congratulated and treated with the respect they deserve. Maybe also offer them a boon in form of a unique magic item, or an RP perk (like nobility or a knightly title) for their next character they would like to play.
Any more ideas here are welcome
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Post by malclave on Oct 28, 2020 19:44:16 GMT -5
I don't think I've ever had any of my characters attend an execution. On the one hand, I don't see any of them as a Madame Defarge type, knitting while watching the National Razor at work. On the other, from remarks in game and on the forum, they really seem more like a county fair than an application of justice, since everyone knows the dead won't stay that way. Running into a rust monster is scarier than being beheaded.
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Post by Asgardian Grey Hawk on Oct 28, 2020 19:54:31 GMT -5
After that other thread, I think it is more like the setting can handle evils of any kind, but the moment them or characters of any other alingment become outlaws, the limitations of the module design become too evident and can cause further conflicts and frustrations in the community. Perhaps what FRC needs to do, is change the executions or crimes that lead to becoming an outlaw for meaningful time in jail. The more serious the crime, the more time a character has to stay in prison. Make it months, and in the extreme cases years.If a player has no desire to ropleplay every day in prison, then they can roll a new character while the time in prison is served. Perhaps Cormyr could build a large prison like Neverwinter had in the single player campaings of NWN and the criminals could be left there to RP among themsleves. Prison break events could be also planned to give convicts a chance to flee (though they would of course become outlaws if they escape). Sure, executions can and should still happen, but more to that in a moment... It may seem harsh for the players of those characters to be imprsioned that long, but when certain bad apples (now banned) mass murdererers were around for the infamous 2017 PvP frenzy that the server experienced, it all was so bad because these characters could not be stopped by any means. Someone would finaly defeat them in PvP? They respawned. They were executed? LOL... their buddies would claim the remains and resurrect them. It was madness, chaos and honestly, it made no sense. It all only lead to grudges and competitive play for the -wrong- reasons. Now, considerable time in jail, even if perhaps it is not canon for a true version of Cormyr, should maybe be the new standard rather than going straight to the gallows or to be beheaded. Not only would this IC penatly be more respected than the executions as how they are now, but it would give a sense of closure for all parties involved. The guilty characters would be away and nobody would be trying to settle the score either. Endless PvP circles would become slower and characters would not become outlaws as fast (Right now I think the counter is like 2-3 executions, but maybe I'm wrong). As for executions, make them Permadeath, but save them for the most extreme cases, where it is clear that the criminal (of any alignment and class) has to die. Make them scary, make them sad, make them gritty and make them as definitive as they should be. In turn, players of characters suffering that fate, and that can roll with the punches OOC, should in turn be congratulated and treated with the respect they deserve. Maybe also offer them a boon in form of a unique magic item, or an RP perk (like nobility or a knightly title) for their next character they would like to play. Any more ideas here are welcome I'd be in favor of forced perma death. If a system was in place where you receive a token that gives you half the current lvl of the executed PC to make a new PC. Otherwise I'm not in favor of it unless it makes sense in rp not to be brought back |
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Post by Dimitri on Oct 28, 2020 19:54:57 GMT -5
The idea of executions and stuff is silly cause the person can end up alive again within hours. Its not fair to ask players to perma their characters, but we also need hefty suspension of disbelief to have our characters believe the crown truly lets confirmed mass murderers go free and so on. As I said when Abii died and came back... just put the body in lava, leave nothing so even true resurrection is hard.  But outlaws are always going to have it hard. Its something they have to accept if they're willing to risk their reputations and face value trust with the crown and other Characters around them. |
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Post by Dimitri on Oct 28, 2020 19:56:23 GMT -5
After that other thread, I think it is more like the setting can handle evils of any kind, but the moment them or characters of any other alingment become outlaws, the limitations of the module design become too evident and can cause further conflicts and frustrations in the community. Perhaps what FRC needs to do, is change the executions or crimes that lead to becoming an outlaw for meaningful time in jail. The more serious the crime, the more time a character has to stay in prison. Make it months, and in the extreme cases years.If a player has no desire to ropleplay every day in prison, then they can roll a new character while the time in prison is served. Perhaps Cormyr could build a large prison like Neverwinter had in the single player campaings of NWN and the criminals could be left there to RP among themsleves. Prison break events could be also planned to give convicts a chance to flee (though they would of course become outlaws if they escape). Sure, executions can and should still happen, but more to that in a moment... It may seem harsh for the players of those characters to be imprsioned that long, but when certain bad apples (now banned) mass murdererers were around for the infamous 2017 PvP frenzy that the server experienced, it all was so bad because these characters could not be stopped by any means. Someone would finaly defeat them in PvP? They respawned. They were executed? LOL... their buddies would claim the remains and resurrect them. It was madness, chaos and honestly, it made no sense. It all only lead to grudges and competitive play for the -wrong- reasons. Now, considerable time in jail, even if perhaps it is not canon for a true version of Cormyr, should maybe be the new standard rather than going straight to the gallows or to be beheaded. Not only would this IC penatly be more respected than the executions as how they are now, but it would give a sense of closure for all parties involved. The guilty characters would be away and nobody would be trying to settle the score either. Endless PvP circles would become slower and characters would not become outlaws as fast (Right now I think the counter is like 2-3 executions, but maybe I'm wrong). As for executions, make them Permadeath, but save them for the most extreme cases, where it is clear that the criminal (of any alignment and class) has to die. Make them scary, make them sad, make them gritty and make them as definitive as they should be. In turn, players of characters suffering that fate, and that can roll with the punches OOC, should in turn be congratulated and treated with the respect they deserve. Maybe also offer them a boon in form of a unique magic item, or an RP perk (like nobility or a knightly title) for their next character they would like to play. Any more ideas here are welcome I'd be in favor of forced perma death. If a system was in place where you receive a token that gives you half the current lvl of the executed PC to make a new PC. Otherwise I'm not in favor of it unless it makes sense in rp not to be brought back I like Arelith's Epic Sacrifice thing. You don't get bonus exp or such but maybe you get -ECL, or can play a tiefling or otber special thing as a bonus based on the roll you make. |
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Post by mandene on Oct 28, 2020 20:03:16 GMT -5
Well.
An execution not being a perma death is as fair as the victims being present at the ecexution telling everyone how they have been murdered by the person being executed.
Both are equally ridiculous, but people only complain about the execution.
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Post by Asgardian Grey Hawk on Oct 28, 2020 20:36:13 GMT -5
Well. An execution not being a perma death is as fair as the victims being present at the ecexution telling everyone how they have been murdered by the person being executed. Both are equally ridiculous, but people only complain about the execution. this so much right here. Only forced perma is mention only on outlaw or those executed never those killed in pvp. Very odd. |
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Post by Razgriz on Oct 28, 2020 20:47:09 GMT -5
Well. An execution not being a perma death is as fair as the victims being present at the ecexution telling everyone how they have been murdered by the person being executed. Both are equally ridiculous, but people only complain about the execution. this so much right here. Only forced perma is mention only on outlaw or those executed never those killed in pvp. Very odd. Ok, If one of the victims decides to forever stay dead you would be willing to have the character responsible perma die if caught or defeated in a PvP? I know you do, but if the community as a whole agreed to that notion, not much would need to change. If in the other hand the victim comes back to life, then the killer could do so as well. This gives power to both, victim of PvP and winner of it. |
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Post by Asgardian Grey Hawk on Oct 28, 2020 20:58:13 GMT -5
this so much right here. Only forced perma is mention only on outlaw or those executed never those killed in pvp. Very odd. Ok, If one of the victims decides to forever stay dead you would be willing to have the character responsible perma die if caught? I know you do, but if the community as a whole agreed to that notion, not much would need to change. If in the other hand the victim comes back to life, then the killer could do so as well. This gives power to both, victim of PvP and winner of it. if person is killed pvp yes perma dead. If murder is killed or executed dead perma. Iv perma killed 2 pcs of mine thus far. As to wise I saw no way out to keep bringing them back. But as far as I know I'm one of a very select few who perma kill their pcs. It is unfair to just single out a murderer to be only responsible for perma. If it makes no sense for the murder to return it is the same for the victim. And highly unfair to punish one party. |
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Post by Southpaw on Oct 28, 2020 21:05:49 GMT -5
I've played on another server where if a murder victim was brought back to life, and it was shown to the law that they were alive, the charge was automatically assault and not murder. In order to even have a murder charge, someone had to be dead, kind of like in real life. If no one was dead, there wasn't even a murder charge, let alone an execution. The victim could come back afterwards, but they had to at least stay dead long enough for the killer to be convicted of their murder, or their being alive was automatic evidence no murder occurred. I think that would be fair here.
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Post by Razgriz on Oct 28, 2020 21:09:34 GMT -5
Ok, If one of the victims decides to forever stay dead you would be willing to have the character responsible perma die if caught? I know you do, but if the community as a whole agreed to that notion, not much would need to change. If in the other hand the victim comes back to life, then the killer could do so as well. This gives power to both, victim of PvP and winner of it. if person is killed pvp yes perma dead. If murder is killed or executed dead perma. Iv perma killed 2 pcs of mine thus far. As to wise I saw no way out to keep bringing them back. But as far as I know I'm one of a very select few who perma kill their pcs. It is unfair to just single out a murderer to be only responsible for perma. If it makes no sense for the murder to return it is the same for the victim. And highly unfair to punish one party. Hhahah! I'm so close of playing that way too, but it only stays in that. Not sure if it is because I can still not let my favorite characters go, or because I want to see their concept fully developed before moving on to newer ones or simply because the moment I say I'm game, equals to painting a target on all of my characters back. Perhaps moving on slowly and in stages, after covering the fully developed concept and story arc is the way. |
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Post by Masterbard Alyster Darkharp on Oct 28, 2020 21:16:28 GMT -5
I am not in favor of enforced permadeath, but I'm good with realistic prison sentences. Realistic to the point that short of a prison break you might as well have died, but allowing inmates to roleplay among themselves in general population for years at a time if they want to. I think a characters story is over when they say it is over, or when they get banned. Otherwise I think the door should be open for an existence in a cage for the character.
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Post by Lady Frost on Oct 28, 2020 21:18:34 GMT -5
Ok, If one of the victims decides to forever stay dead you would be willing to have the character responsible perma die if caught? I know you do, but if the community as a whole agreed to that notion, not much would need to change. If in the other hand the victim comes back to life, then the killer could do so as well. This gives power to both, victim of PvP and winner of it. if person is killed pvp yes perma dead. If murder is killed or executed dead perma. Iv perma killed 2 pcs of mine thus far. As to wise I saw no way out to keep bringing them back. But as far as I know I'm one of a very select few who perma kill their pcs. It is unfair to just single out a murderer to be only responsible for perma. If it makes no sense for the murder to return it is the same for the victim. And highly unfair to punish one party. First, I disagree that it's the same. There are situations where it /could/ be comparable if the person being murdered really egged it on and pushed the murderer, but generally, I don't agree being a victim is the same as being the aggressor. Second, we're not talking about murderers. Nobody is talking about punishing murderers. We're talking about characters who are bad enough at murdering that they've been caught a lot of times. There are plenty of murderers who've never been caught and continue on and on. If you don't want to have the punishment then don't get caught. This is what I posted on this topic about 3 years ago (from this thread: Outlaw Is Bad
I think an exception to this could be if there was a discussion with the DM's beforehand of the intentions of the murderer within a prearranged plot or rivalry. For example, if the murderer gets caught he loses the rivalry and the punishment is prearranged to be something specific other than execution and retirement. |
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Post by Southpaw on Oct 28, 2020 21:30:49 GMT -5
I think the law should have no more power to force permakill a character than a PC does. In RL, dead is dead. Doesn't matter if it's the law that did it, a crocodile, a falling brick, or choking on a piece of meat. I'm not sure how you'd carry that equality between causes of death into the game, but I'd prefer to see PC's, monsters, NPC's, and the law be on relatively equal footing there, IF permadeath became a thing. And I'm not advocating for anyone and everyone to be able to do it, I'm advocating for the law to not have an exclusive ability to cause perma.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 28, 2020 23:18:55 GMT -5
I love the penal colony/gulag idea, even if it may not fit the moral disposition of the crown. I wanna run a Damarran gopnik prison gang!
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Post by ID10Tango on Oct 29, 2020 9:50:58 GMT -5
I think this is a good idea. I say that as someone who could be described as "part of the problem" back in the day. I'm really sorry about all that btw...
Some of the counterarguments in previous threads over the years related to how to handle criminals in a Persistent World, and I've never really understood why IC punishments skip from 10-30 days jail time straight to "death" or banishment.
I think Razgriz's notion of longer jail time is a better fit, and I also really like Southpaw's comment about the victim being raised lessens the charge to assault, but I feel that permadeath should remain on the table as an option for the most severe and/or repeated violent crimes.
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Post by Runa Rothgar on Oct 29, 2020 13:36:02 GMT -5
I think things are fine as they are. If we are speaking of just outlaw/Villains, these characters that are executed/raised are usually banished. I am not sure of all the sentences given as characters like Otter was executed then raised and just chills at GG with no issue. This is how Runa figured out Vindel would be executed and raised. It's not planar science. I also think the whole execution concept is silly, as mentioned above by Mandene. However, if it's going to be silly with characters being executed , then my characters will also play silly and assume player characters are going to be raised; especially if there are other characters crying and frowning and singing songs for the one to be executed. These are 'dead' give aways that the player is not going to be die Permanently. So Runa figures that Vindel never was going to die permanently, and she was right. This also forces characters to be on 'Radar' I understand that the world of FRC is limited and outlaws want to RP too, but outlaws are not being taken seriously. For example, Runa notes anyone.. .anyyyyone who was recently executed and know who they are, what they looked like. Disguise or not, anyone 'new' faces or adventurers that suddenly come popping around Greatgaunt are going to be subject to scrutiny. What happens is players are trying to push away the lack of disguise items/gears and forgive the outlaw/villains that hang about areas. Runa never really reacted to Vindel or potential Vindel as she confirmed. She is neutral and just wanted to know.. because well.. Oghma stuff. So now we have the concept of bluff/disguise skill. A bluff disguise skill is a roll. It's a roll that can be defeated. If an outlaw paces into Greatgaunt players should all start rolling disguise checks. After awhile, that outlaw will fail and be exposed. A person in disguise should not be just nonchalant 'hanging out' with other adventurers who are eager to find something to do. The Red Emperor will bully all levels he can for the bounty, always on radar, looking for anyone who is suspicious. Adventurers are usually going to be suspicious/curious of new faces and hooded characters. We as players need to be more rigid in our approach to hooded/helmed characters (Especially those that refuse to remove their hood) or ones with masks as they are not immune to suspicion. A keen character is going to catch them sooner or later. A disguised character should be avoiding being in such a situation of grouped adventurers as best they can to avoid being seen. Sorry, but Vindel was doing it wrong. xD. Perhaps the DM/Staff should have Greatgaunt guards be more vetting as adventurers come in, ask for those adventuring charters and their faces. During the reward ceremony with Mynian's recovery -no- one was allowed to be there if they were hooded. So they left. Obviously we can talk about the population as a whole in GG and other towns, but Adventurers are eye sores so disguised characters should be more 'common' looking if they wanna get away with not standing out. What if Bentin just walks by other adventurers and starts getting suspicious of every hooded fellow? Again, I understand the need to RP.. I understand the spread thin Team Evils have no general safe haven, but they made their bed. (I voted no for evil characters in a previous thread poll because FRC is not set up for a Team Evil nor PVP as 'recent events' caused players to leave the server, as well as DMs. This to me means FRC is not ready. Subtle Evil characters fine. Big Team Evil, nope.) Characters , like Vindel are a 'soft' permadeath. He is limited in his range to roam and opportunities. I have had Vindel in my events as an EDM because it's out of the way and has nothing to do with Crown/ Big Story plots. The NPC of that plot doesn't care who joins her expeditions, she just wants the job done. However, it doesn't stop another player for noticing who Slinger Vindel is. We don't need permadeath, we can't have permadeath. Too many players invested years into their characters and they don't want them dead. I have voiced my opinion before regarding long time characters and how it brings a stale environment to servers. There is a reason why Table top DMs tell you to create a new character and that the campaign is over (Time to roll up new characters!). My point is, If characters can be perm'd, then we should also have characters retire. Many evil/villains/outlaws risk their characters to bring RP into this world. If you ALL need Evil Player characters and they should be perm'd, then perhaps character heroes should retire. This won't happen, you don't want to retire your characters and outlaws don't want to be perm'd. You all want to keep it going. What about new characters or players that haven't been here as long? Do they deserve permadeath, retirement? They do as much as the other. It's no fair to toss the I been here longer and deserve more rights card. There is no rule and regulations. Also, if longer time players want this server to thrive, you will want new players and characters.. they should actually be more forgiven from permadeath and retirement. All your rewards are from having a character for years. What a great reward to have a character with many stories and accomplishments. Newer players don't get that yet. Here is my final thoughts and suggestions for player responsible RP: - Villain Outlaws are soft perm'd even after executed/Banished. They are either outlawed or held with a stigma/label/mark of cain. They lose rights as an adventurer/citizen in Cormyr and forever struggle to find a place. Other characters should be more rigid with these outlaws unless the characters themselves do not care or are friends. Did Vindel lose his adventurer charter? Did he find a new one? Hmm!?  Challenge: I ask players who are under axe for execution or in a similar situation, send out a poll in the forums. Ask other players if your characters should just be perm'd. If you were on the other side, wouldn't you think someone should be perm'd after being charged guilty/executed? I think so and would vote yes. Or going to think: 'But my 10+ year character..' - Heroes/Subtle Evil of old (Long time players) are also soft retired. They have become jaded over the years and usually provide training or some sort of wisdom into younger/new Adventurers to keep on. Many will be leaders of certain groups and log on once in awhile to show their stuff or be called upon for certain situations that require them (Epic Times!) Challenge: Retire thought. Where does your characters stand in the scope of FRC? Do you think you are just holding position for the sake of having it and not doing much in it? Is your long time character sort of a fence flower in Greatgaunt? Perhaps work your character to bring in a new leader, train them, set them up for success before retiring your character fully? Lastly, they should give newer characters more opportunity to figure things out in events and other situations. Perhaps allow newer characters to be referred too and given chances instead of writing letters to the most powerful characters in the world to solve rat problems. xD I am teasing, but buddies like to contact buddies and take over. I am suggestion be wary of that, heroes and evils of old. I know your older characters can whoop ass and roll skills with 45+ after buying gear from soloing dragon cult dungeons, but it's not difficult to encourage younger characters to be successful, set them up and I think the reward is greater. (Ask Lady Frost how Zodika has pushed Leah and other characters to success by taking a more retired role) I am being honest with you all. I know I sound rude sometimes and blunt. I am not trying to be, but I believe in characters taking responsibility for their own characters and choices. We should all think about our characters and where they are, be considerate of other characters and give them opportunities to shine. The DMs should not be forcing regulations because players don't wanna give up their characters. The DMs try their best to accommodate your character we all want to have fun. I am not going around gritting my teeth and in utter anger to long time players here. I am just saying that if things are stale for your characters and they are in a position with not much going on and you as a player are getting bored to the point of complaining. Then your fun has been fading. Perhaps just take it like a champ and find another solution. I may sound passive aggressive with some things here and you reading this might feel accused. Talk to me and I'll address it. I just don't have time to list out players and call them out. Players have talked to me in tells and called me out with stuff. DMs have even spoke to me. I am -not- perfect.. just trying to have fun like the rest of yah. Remember.. fun > win ( As an EDM I am trying not to use that in any way to force rules or regulations. I reply to this as player and have no interest in slamming anyone with an EDM / I am favored card. These are my thoughts as a player; because this is a topic for players. :3 ) |
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Post by Animayhem on Oct 29, 2020 15:27:48 GMT -5
I think this is a good compromise. Execution here is too easy. All you have to do is kill some one even if it is self defense. In cases like these imprisonment and maybe hard labor would be enough. Time would depend on the circumstances.
Hardcore killers I think execution. Possible permadeath if they repeat their actions after being raised however allow, as suggested, they can make a totally new character at half the level not a reincarnation of the permadead.
People may say why? Yes they were evil and committed heinous crimes but they became part of the world history ans spurred other rp.
If the permadead clause is put up front in the forum rules, then there are no surprises. The players know what will happen if they decide to go down that road.
The player maybe could be given one or two warnings that if they continue they will be.
What really needs to be changed is the burden of proof placed upon the victim since there is a death wipe. Subdual could help greatly. The victim may be close to death and thought to have been killed .
The victim would not instantly remember the details but they would return slowly. They may not be able to remember all but a least something for the authorities to go on.
I realize dms are busy but another problem has been delays on acting on information given.
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Post by Southpaw on Oct 29, 2020 16:21:54 GMT -5
In my view, the real problem is that getting away with a crime is difficult to the point that I think it may be somewhat taken for granted you are *going* to be caught and punished sooner or later, so "being punished" can be kind of assumed to be part of the criminal's story more or less no matter what. I know there are people who get away with things, but I'm speaking in generalities about the setting. So, since it's hard to make it so criminals have more ways to escape punishment, we lighten up the sentence to counterbalance the difficulty in avoiding it. This leads to non-permanent executions, which feels kind of wonky and weird, but it's accepted as "the best we can do" in the context of a more or less unavoidable eventual fate. And on it goes.
To me, the real solution is the same as I just posted recently on the evil PC's thread, more space on the server, room to roam, and places to go to not be right smack under the watchful eye of the law no matter where you go, to the point it's hard to even get off the road when you're in the wilderness. To exaggerate to make a point, if the only areas built into the server were downtown Suzail with war wizards wandering around everywhere, of course you're going to get caught eventually no matter what you ever do. Give "bad guys" all the room to roam that there would be in canon Cormyr the forest kingdom, and that fate now becomes more avoidable. If it's more avoidable, it's actually the consequence of choices made if it befalls you, not just in the choice to break the law, but also the choice to press your luck in areas you can get caught and actually end up apprehended, when you had choices of places you could go to in order to lie low and out of sight, but yet still able to adventure and role play. So to me, the answer to this is more space, and then realistic penalties for crimes.
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Post by Razgriz on Oct 29, 2020 18:06:59 GMT -5
In my view, the real problem is that getting away with a crime is difficult to the point that I think it may be somewhat taken for granted you are *going* to be caught and punished sooner or later, so "being punished" can be kind of assumed to be part of the criminal's story more or less no matter what. I know there are people who get away with things, but I'm speaking in generalities about the setting. So, since it's hard to make it so criminals have more ways to escape punishment, we lighten up the sentence to counterbalance the difficulty in avoiding it. This leads to non-permanent executions, which feels kind of wonky and weird, but it's accepted as "the best we can do" in the context of a more or less unavoidable eventual fate. And on it goes. To me, the real solution is the same as I just posted recently on the evil PC's thread, more space on the server, room to roam, and places to go to not be right smack under the watchful eye of the law no matter where you go, to the point it's hard to even get off the road when you're in the wilderness. To exaggerate to make a point, if the only areas built into the server were downtown Suzail with war wizards wandering around everywhere, of course you're going to get caught eventually no matter what you ever do. Give "bad guys" all the room to roam that there would be in canon Cormyr the forest kingdom, and that fate now becomes more avoidable. If it's more avoidable, it's actually the consequence of choices made if it befalls you, not just in the choice to break the law, but also the choice to press your luck in areas you can get caught and actually end up apprehended, when you had choices of places you could go to in order to lie low and out of sight, but yet still able to adventure and role play. So to me, the answer to this is more space, and then realistic penalties for crimes. Space, sure. But come on.... The server has many areas where an outlaw could be at. The epic ones could simpy rent a room in the Unfortunate Orc and for dungeons they have the entire Underdark to explore. It is not so much a lack space, but facilities. Stores, temples, and something to do that is not just killing monsters and then having a sense of purpose as they did before. Perhaps what is needed, is to have Proskur represented or better, an expansion of the module towards Westgate across the Sea of Fallen Stars. Lawful Evils could get a hold of that city that already seems dark, then the outlaws could go live there as they did before becoming outlaws and while they figure a way to have their legal standing with the Crown of Cormyr restored. Even some dungeons could be added for Westgate too. |
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Post by Masterbard Alyster Darkharp on Oct 29, 2020 18:13:06 GMT -5
In my view, the real problem is that getting away with a crime is difficult to the point that I think it may be somewhat taken for granted you are *going* to be caught and punished sooner or later, so "being punished" can be kind of assumed to be part of the criminal's story more or less no matter what. I know there are people who get away with things, but I'm speaking in generalities about the setting. So, since it's hard to make it so criminals have more ways to escape punishment, we lighten up the sentence to counterbalance the difficulty in avoiding it. This leads to non-permanent executions, which feels kind of wonky and weird, but it's accepted as "the best we can do" in the context of a more or less unavoidable eventual fate. And on it goes. To me, the real solution is the same as I just posted recently on the evil PC's thread, more space on the server, room to roam, and places to go to not be right smack under the watchful eye of the law no matter where you go, to the point it's hard to even get off the road when you're in the wilderness. To exaggerate to make a point, if the only areas built into the server were downtown Suzail with war wizards wandering around everywhere, of course you're going to get caught eventually no matter what you ever do. Give "bad guys" all the room to roam that there would be in canon Cormyr the forest kingdom, and that fate now becomes more avoidable. If it's more avoidable, it's actually the consequence of choices made if it befalls you, not just in the choice to break the law, but also the choice to press your luck in areas you can get caught and actually end up apprehended, when you had choices of places you could go to in order to lie low and out of sight, but yet still able to adventure and role play. So to me, the answer to this is more space, and then realistic penalties for crimes. Space, sure. But come on.... The server has many areas where an outlaw could be at. The epic ones could simpy rent a room in the Unfortunate Orc and for dungeons they have the entire Underdark to explore. It is not so much a lack space, but facilities. Stores, temples, and something to do that is not just killing monsters and then having a sense of purpose as they did before. Perhaps what is needed, is to have Proskur represented or better, an expansion of the module towards Westgate across the Sea of Fallen Stars. Lawful Evils could get a hold of that city that already seems dark, then the outlaws could go live there as they did before becoming outlaws and while they figure a way to have their legal standing with the Crown of Cormyr restored. Even some dungeons could be added for Westgate too. Starmantle is also a very dark place. |
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Post by Dimitri on Oct 29, 2020 18:14:48 GMT -5
You leave Starmantle Alone. The ironsworn will kick your ass. > : ( Hehe, we already fought a war against Westgate there.
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Post by Masterbard Alyster Darkharp on Oct 29, 2020 18:25:36 GMT -5
You leave Starmantle Alone. The ironsworn will kick your ass. > : ( Hehe, we already fought a war against Westgate there. The few times I have seen it visited in novels it was described as a really rough area, it's gates open to all races, even monsterous ones. |
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Post by Lady Frost on Oct 29, 2020 18:29:17 GMT -5
In my view, the real problem is that getting away with a crime is difficult to the point that I think it may be somewhat taken for granted you are *going* to be caught and punished sooner or later, so "being punished" can be kind of assumed to be part of the criminal's story more or less no matter what. I know there are people who get away with things, but I'm speaking in generalities about the setting. So, since it's hard to make it so criminals have more ways to escape punishment, we lighten up the sentence to counterbalance the difficulty in avoiding it. This leads to non-permanent executions, which feels kind of wonky and weird, but it's accepted as "the best we can do" in the context of a more or less unavoidable eventual fate. And on it goes. To me, the real solution is the same as I just posted recently on the evil PC's thread, more space on the server, room to roam, and places to go to not be right smack under the watchful eye of the law no matter where you go, to the point it's hard to even get off the road when you're in the wilderness. To exaggerate to make a point, if the only areas built into the server were downtown Suzail with war wizards wandering around everywhere, of course you're going to get caught eventually no matter what you ever do. Give "bad guys" all the room to roam that there would be in canon Cormyr the forest kingdom, and that fate now becomes more avoidable. If it's more avoidable, it's actually the consequence of choices made if it befalls you, not just in the choice to break the law, but also the choice to press your luck in areas you can get caught and actually end up apprehended, when you had choices of places you could go to in order to lie low and out of sight, but yet still able to adventure and role play. So to me, the answer to this is more space, and then realistic penalties for crimes. Both forests are vastly underrepresented, as well as the Western Storm Horns. It wouldn't be hard to add 50 areas just to the King's forest and 20 more to the Western Stormhorns. There's a ton of space there to use and including small hidden away places that are hard to find and good places for outlaws and those wishing to hide away and use for bases wouldn't be hard at all. Add a few small places with some stirges and rats but mostly leave them empty. Monsters don't have to live everywhere. |
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Post by Dimitri on Oct 29, 2020 18:30:33 GMT -5
Starmantle is very different then, in game. No monstrous folk living there when we were present, and its a trade port that fought off Westgate and their allies with Ironsworn, Sembian, and Shou help. |
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Post by mandene on Oct 29, 2020 18:34:59 GMT -5
I don't know if, and rather doubt, the size of the server is a problem. The stories of my meeting with evil happened on a, at the time, fairly new server (new enough to be small, but old enough for characters with higher levels). When I played my first character, there were maybe 30 - 50 areas on the server, tops. Including outdoor, shops and dungeons. Maybe less.
Around the time of my 2nd character, the server had grown, but it was still maybe the size of FRC's western reaches. At most. I don't remember it being an issue.
In fact, FRC stretches far and wide. Making most of it void of players. I'd say the issue could be with there being, as you say, far too many areas that are just for traveling between places - and following the roads too much.
Speaking of cities - the size of them, as with the wilderness, isn't representative of how big the cities really are. Even in the capital, and even with war wizards being "everywhere" it makes sense for crime being able to thrive and being committed. Unseen crime. Dark back alleys in poorwr or less savory districts are typical fantasy examples. But you have to try to be there, and not commit the crime in front of Bentin. And leave no witnesses. After all, in the middle ages (yes, I know this isn't middle ages) there were very few ways to get a faie trials. The idea od proof wasn't that established, at least what counted as proof. Sometimes the best proof was your "good name" and if you came from a good family. If you were infamous, you could end up blamed, just because it is usually you that causes trouble. That being said, a magical setting has far more options. You don't need proof, when you can ask the dead who killed them, cast aura of truth in the interrogation room, or just read the mind of the offender. But on the other side these spells arw costly and wouldn't be used in small towns or on simple crimes, or higher crimes commited by a well known town troublemaker, or just a nobody. So I'm not really certain about how to balance crimes being committed with crimes being proved.
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Post by Asgardian Grey Hawk on Oct 29, 2020 19:23:50 GMT -5
I think things are fine as they are. If we are speaking of just outlaw/Villains, these characters that are executed/raised are usually banished. I am not sure of all the sentences given as characters like Otter was executed then raised and just chills at GG with no issue. This is how Runa figured out Vindel would be executed and raised. It's not planar science. I also think the whole execution concept is silly, as mentioned above by Mandene. However, if it's going to be silly with characters being executed , then my characters will also play silly and assume player characters are going to be raised; especially if there are other characters crying and frowning and singing songs for the one to be executed. These are 'dead' give aways that the player is not going to be die Permanently. So Runa figures that Vindel never was going to die permanently, and she was right. This also forces characters to be on 'Radar' I understand that the world of FRC is limited and outlaws want to RP too, but outlaws are not being taken seriously. For example, Runa notes anyone.. .anyyyyone who was recently executed and know who they are, what they looked like. Disguise or not, anyone 'new' faces or adventurers that suddenly come popping around Greatgaunt are going to be subject to scrutiny. What happens is players are trying to push away the lack of disguise items/gears and forgive the outlaw/villains that hang about areas. Runa never really reacted to Vindel or potential Vindel as she confirmed. She is neutral and just wanted to know.. because well.. Oghma stuff. So now we have the concept of bluff/disguise skill. A bluff disguise skill is a roll. It's a roll that can be defeated. If an outlaw paces into Greatgaunt players should all start rolling disguise checks. After awhile, that outlaw will fail and be exposed. A person in disguise should not be just nonchalant 'hanging out' with other adventurers who are eager to find something to do. The Red Emperor will bully all levels he can for the bounty, always on radar, looking for anyone who is suspicious. Adventurers are usually going to be suspicious/curious of new faces and hooded characters. We as players need to be more rigid in our approach to hooded/helmed characters (Especially those that refuse to remove their hood) or ones with masks as they are not immune to suspicion. A keen character is going to catch them sooner or later. A disguised character should be avoiding being in such a situation of grouped adventurers as best they can to avoid being seen. Sorry, but Vindel was doing it wrong. xD. Perhaps the DM/Staff should have Greatgaunt guards be more vetting as adventurers come in, ask for those adventuring charters and their faces. During the reward ceremony with Mynian's recovery -no- one was allowed to be there if they were hooded. So they left. Obviously we can talk about the population as a whole in GG and other towns, but Adventurers are eye sores so disguised characters should be more 'common' looking if they wanna get away with not standing out. What if Bentin just walks by other adventurers and starts getting suspicious of every hooded fellow? Again, I understand the need to RP.. I understand the spread thin Team Evils have no general safe haven, but they made their bed. (I voted no for evil characters in a previous thread poll because FRC is not set up for a Team Evil nor PVP as 'recent events' caused players to leave the server, as well as DMs. This to me means FRC is not ready. Subtle Evil characters fine. Big Team Evil, nope.) Characters , like Vindel are a 'soft' permadeath. He is limited in his range to roam and opportunities. I have had Vindel in my events as an EDM because it's out of the way and has nothing to do with Crown/ Big Story plots. The NPC of that plot doesn't care who joins her expeditions, she just wants the job done. However, it doesn't stop another player for noticing who Slinger Vindel is. We don't need permadeath, we can't have permadeath. Too many players invested years into their characters and they don't want them dead. I have voiced my opinion before regarding long time characters and how it brings a stale environment to servers. There is a reason why Table top DMs tell you to create a new character and that the campaign is over (Time to roll up new characters!). My point is, If characters can be perm'd, then we should also have characters retire. Many evil/villains/outlaws risk their characters to bring RP into this world. If you ALL need Evil Player characters and they should be perm'd, then perhaps character heroes should retire. This won't happen, you don't want to retire your characters and outlaws don't want to be perm'd. You all want to keep it going. What about new characters or players that haven't been here as long? Do they deserve permadeath, retirement? They do as much as the other. It's no fair to toss the I been here longer and deserve more rights card. There is no rule and regulations. Also, if longer time players want this server to thrive, you will want new players and characters.. they should actually be more forgiven from permadeath and retirement. All your rewards are from having a character for years. What a great reward to have a character with many stories and accomplishments. Newer players don't get that yet. Here is my final thoughts and suggestions for player responsible RP: - Villain Outlaws are soft perm'd even after executed/Banished. They are either outlawed or held with a stigma/label/mark of cain. They lose rights as an adventurer/citizen in Cormyr and forever struggle to find a place. Other characters should be more rigid with these outlaws unless the characters themselves do not care or are friends. Did Vindel lose his adventurer charter? Did he find a new one? Hmm!? Challenge: I ask players who are under axe for execution or in a similar situation, send out a poll in the forums. Ask other players if your characters should just be perm'd. If you were on the other side, wouldn't you think someone should be perm'd after being charged guilty/executed? I think so and would vote yes. Or going to think: 'But my 10+ year character..' - Heroes/Subtle Evil of old (Long time players) are also soft retired. They have become jaded over the years and usually provide training or some sort of wisdom into younger/new Adventurers to keep on. Many will be leaders of certain groups and log on once in awhile to show their stuff or be called upon for certain situations that require them (Epic Times!) Challenge: Retire thought. Where does your characters stand in the scope of FRC? Do you think you are just holding position for the sake of having it and not doing much in it? Is your long time character sort of a fence flower in Greatgaunt? Perhaps work your character to bring in a new leader, train them, set them up for success before retiring your character fully? Lastly, they should give newer characters more opportunity to figure things out in events and other situations. Perhaps allow newer characters to be referred too and given chances instead of writing letters to the most powerful characters in the world to solve rat problems. xD I am teasing, but buddies like to contact buddies and take over. I am suggestion be wary of that, heroes and evils of old. I know your older characters can whoop ass and roll skills with 45+ after buying gear from soloing dragon cult dungeons, but it's not difficult to encourage younger characters to be successful, set them up and I think the reward is greater. (Ask Lady Frost how Zodika has pushed Leah and other characters to success by taking a more retired role) I am being honest with you all. I know I sound rude sometimes and blunt. I am not trying to be, but I believe in characters taking responsibility for their own characters and choices. We should all think about our characters and where they are, be considerate of other characters and give them opportunities to shine. The DMs should not be forcing regulations because players don't wanna give up their characters. The DMs try their best to accommodate your character we all want to have fun. I am not going around gritting my teeth and in utter anger to long time players here. I am just saying that if things are stale for your characters and they are in a position with not much going on and you as a player are getting bored to the point of complaining. Then your fun has been fading. Perhaps just take it like a champ and find another solution. I may sound passive aggressive with some things here and you reading this might feel accused. Talk to me and I'll address it. I just don't have time to list out players and call them out. Players have talked to me in tells and called me out with stuff. DMs have even spoke to me. I am -not- perfect.. just trying to have fun like the rest of yah. Remember.. fun > win ( As an EDM I am trying not to use that in any way to force rules or regulations. I reply to this as player and have no interest in slamming anyone with an EDM / I am favored card. These are my thoughts as a player; because this is a topic for players. :3 ) I am curious how I'm doing it wrong but that can be handled in tells. Also no one has questioned or cared that Vindel/aka slinger is along. Iv never turned down a request to roll bluff. But in the setting of the events. I do find that it's a perfect environment for outlaws or the shady types to thrives. And for that its appreciated. |
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Post by Masterbard Alyster Darkharp on Oct 29, 2020 22:08:00 GMT -5
Starmantle is very different then, in game. No monstrous folk living there when we were present, and its a trade port that fought off Westgate and their allies with Ironsworn, Sembian, and Shou help. Check out inhabitants in the FR Wiki, I know in the novels of Paul Kemp it was a dark place, and apparently in source it is as well, beyond his novels since most of these races in the wiki were never hinted at. |
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Post by Asgardian Grey Hawk on Oct 29, 2020 22:20:49 GMT -5
Tbh the hardest thing to rp and what should be done more by the crown over execution. Disarm and strip the PC of their gear and enforce cumunity service. That was the most hated task zi had while on Aris. Not to mention the damage it did to his reputation. A known open banite doing service in the triad temple. Not every PC would mind that but maybe just maybe. Enforced service to the crown. Have them set on tasks the Pdk are to busy to deal with and send the prisoner to deal with it accompanied by a War Wizard and whom ever is placed in charge of the prisoner. For Aris it was Vel he was placed under.
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Post by Dimitri on Oct 29, 2020 23:08:37 GMT -5
Starmantle is very different then, in game. No monstrous folk living there when we were present, and its a trade port that fought off Westgate and their allies with Ironsworn, Sembian, and Shou help. Check out inhabitants in the FR Wiki, I know in the novels of Paul Kemp it was a dark place, and apparently in source it is as well, beyond his novels since most of these races in the wiki were never hinted at. I mean, yeah, the wiki can say whatever it wants. I'm saying the Ironsworn were 9 months in Starmantle. We only saw monsters in the enemy team as part of a specific group, the inhabitants were normal humans. |
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