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Post by Peter Goezinya on Sept 21, 2020 7:43:05 GMT -5
Just go outside in the sunshine, shadow summoned, you are now evil.
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Post by mandene on Sept 21, 2020 8:05:39 GMT -5
Rp wise what’s the deal with summoning shadows? Is that technically an evil act? Just curious
No.
While NWN summoned shadow is evil,
D&D version says that the summoned shadow is supposed to be the same alignment as the summoning SD. So if your SD is NG, your shadow should be NG.
Shadow Dancer's effects use the same type of magic as Shadow illusion and Shadow Conjuration - non-evil magic. Not to be confused with "Shadow Weave" which is evil and under Shar's influence.
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Post by DOT on Sept 21, 2020 9:43:03 GMT -5
Rp wise what’s the deal with summoning shadows? Is that technically an evil act? Just curious
No.
While NWN summoned shadow is evil,
D&D version says that the summoned shadow is supposed to be the same alignment as the summoning SD. So if your SD is NG, your shadow should be NG.
Shadow Dancer's effects use the same type of magic as Shadow illusion and Shadow Conjuration - non-evil magic. Not to be confused with "Shadow Weave" which is evil and under Shar's influence.
Ah gotcha, so a bit like Peter Pan and his shadow. Ty!
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Post by malclave on Sept 21, 2020 10:36:40 GMT -5
Rp wise what’s the deal with summoning shadows? Is that technically an evil act? Just curious No. While NWN summoned shadow is evil, D&D version says that the summoned shadow is supposed to be the same alignment as the summoning SD. So if your SD is NG, your shadow should be NG.
Shadow Dancer's effects use the same type of magic as Shadow illusion and Shadow Conjuration - non-evil magic. Not to be confused with "Shadow Weave" which is evil and under Shar's influence.
Is that official? I tried searching the Server Info, Server Rules, and DM Q&A boards, but if it was there I missed it. If the shadows summoned by Shadowdancers, Shadow Conjuration, and possibly Death domain clerics are not CE undead, that should probably be noted in one of those places.
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Post by mandene on Sept 21, 2020 10:50:33 GMT -5
No. While NWN summoned shadow is evil, D&D version says that the summoned shadow is supposed to be the same alignment as the summoning SD. So if your SD is NG, your shadow should be NG.
Shadow Dancer's effects use the same type of magic as Shadow illusion and Shadow Conjuration - non-evil magic. Not to be confused with "Shadow Weave" which is evil and under Shar's influence.
Is that official? I tried searching the Server Info, Server Rules, and DM Q&A boards, but if it was there I missed it. If the shadows summoned by Shadowdancers, Shadow Conjuration, and possibly Death domain clerics are not CE undead, that should probably be noted in one of those places. I never menshioned death domain clerics. Only shadows summoned by the shadowdancer. I also do not remember out of hand if summoning shadow through shadow conjuration is an evil act. Other parts of that spell aren't. If using the shadow and other SD tricks was evil, then the requirements to become SD should involve alignment of at least neutrality, like assassin requires to be evil. My comment is based on previous discussions about roleplaing SD. I'll link to it. But also note, that this server is trying to stay close to the standard PnP rules. And it has been discussed in the past that thinking ooc that an SD is evil is a misconception, as they can be of any alignment. However, it's perfectly fine for your characters to think that they are, because due to the nature of that class, their powers are a base of mistrust.
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Post by mandene on Sept 21, 2020 10:58:12 GMT -5
There you go:
[edit]
And here:
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Post by Munroe on Sept 21, 2020 11:36:21 GMT -5
No. While NWN summoned shadow is evil, D&D version says that the summoned shadow is supposed to be the same alignment as the summoning SD. So if your SD is NG, your shadow should be NG.
Shadow Dancer's effects use the same type of magic as Shadow illusion and Shadow Conjuration - non-evil magic. Not to be confused with "Shadow Weave" which is evil and under Shar's influence.
Is that official? I tried searching the Server Info, Server Rules, and DM Q&A boards, but if it was there I missed it. If the shadows summoned by Shadowdancers, Shadow Conjuration, and possibly Death domain clerics are not CE undead, that should probably be noted in one of those places. Because shadowdancer is an application-only class, and because they're intended to be something of a mystery, a lot of the expectations for the class on FRC are communicated directly with people submitting applications. I actually have some standard boilerplate I send to people when I receive applications for the class. The shadowdancer's shadow matches the shadowdancer's alignment. Other summoned shadows are evil undead, with the exception of shadows created with Shadow Conjuration, which is technically an illusion that can pass for an evil undead.
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Post by malclave on Sept 21, 2020 12:45:18 GMT -5
Thanks for the confirmation mandene and MunroeGuess I need to start adding General to the places I search for rulings... and I know you hadn't mentioned Death domain, I added it to my question because I thought it seemed a comparable situation, with multiple Neutral and even one Good deity giving access to that domain
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Post by purgatori69 on Sept 22, 2020 2:41:49 GMT -5
Just had this talk somewhat recently. So technically the shadow is undead, Performs and acts like a shade even draining strength so some might consider that evil. However unlike simple undead shadow you can communicate intelligently with your shadow and it is completely under your control much like an animal companion. In PnP if your shadow is killed or even dismissed it is extremely painful to the shadow dancer.
*The shadow is part of you*
Lots of RP that can be done with the shadow. Also at Higher Levels that little shadow becomes pretty strong.
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Post by nothingtosee on Oct 1, 2020 9:19:58 GMT -5
... You bring up something that has always bothered me on this server. The breaking line of sight and going stealthy does allow you to get more sneak attacks, but the monsters still come right at you and attack even though they "'can't see you". What is up with that? This is an issue most often with pathfinding and what placeables or objects are impassable versus breaking LOS. Sometimes it's just an artifact of lag or other situations. It's not strictly something that can easily be worked around, or it would have been done by now. [/quote] I hear you, but my gut feeling would be that it's AI related. In the same cave, I can jump around a corner and loose giant troll, but not an orc. Another gut feeling, it works more consistently with older areas/creatures. Just an idea.
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Post by Southpaw on Oct 3, 2020 14:30:58 GMT -5
... You bring up something that has always bothered me on this server. The breaking line of sight and going stealthy does allow you to get more sneak attacks, but the monsters still come right at you and attack even though they "'can't see you". What is up with that? This is an issue most often with pathfinding and what placeables or objects are impassable versus breaking LOS. Sometimes it's just an artifact of lag or other situations. It's not strictly something that can easily be worked around, or it would have been done by now. I hear you, but my gut feeling would be that it's AI related. In the same cave, I can jump around a corner and loose giant troll, but not an orc. Another gut feeling, it works more consistently with older areas/creatures. Just an idea. This has nothing to do with placeables, because it happens around hard corners in terrain, too. The reason some continue to pursue while others don’t seems to me to have to do with a difference between continuous vs. non-continuous attack forms. A pure melee attack, or attack with a ranged weapon like a bow, will result in continued attack, with the exception that going out of sight through sheer distance seems to break missile fire. On the other hand, spells and thrown boulders (like some trolls as mentioned in the above quote) are not continuous, and you can shake off that opponent by breaking line of sight. Non-continuous attack seems to require the monster/NPC to re-acquire it’s target after making the attack, and if you’re not in LoS when it tries, it doesn’t pursue. Even the same monster that follows for melee around a corner will lose you if it switches to a spell as you go around a corner.
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Post by sightblinder on Nov 20, 2020 0:47:02 GMT -5
Another SD question here... How does a SD gain their abilities? I don't think it's explained in the DMG and a quick forum search didn't find anything either. Is it just through study? Could the abilities be granted by a deity, or at least a deity showed the SD the secret of how to become one?
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Post by sightblinder on Apr 9, 2021 11:32:11 GMT -5
Alright, full disclosure, it is very slow at work today so I've been skimming the forums. I see no one ever answered the above question and I was just wondering if it is because *no one* knows the answer?
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Post by DM Sauron on Apr 9, 2021 12:03:06 GMT -5
Alright, full disclosure, it is very slow at work today so I've been skimming the forums. I see no one ever answered the above question and I was just wondering if it is because *no one* knows the answer?
As far as I know, deities do not grant the shadow dancer its abilites, nor the source of these is magical (arcane) in nature.
Thier abilities are gained through study and by developing a connection with shadows. Some individuals have what it takes to make that connection, others do not. It is not a path for anyone who meets the the requirements, but it also has to do with their individual background. In example, it is highly unlikely that a paladin can become a shadow dancer, but then a cleric of Lathander, will probably have little to no chance to develop the connection with shadows as well, even if (slowly) both characters could obtain the ranks in the skills and feats needed to qualify as one.
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Post by malclave on Apr 9, 2021 12:06:58 GMT -5
I don't think there is a single way... it's more an RP decision. Some lost tome might have given clues, or the character might have been touched by Mask or Shar, or even stumbled across the secret of accessing the Plane of Shadow by accident. Maybe the character is secretly a Chosen of Andy Gibb.
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Post by DM Hawk on Apr 9, 2021 12:20:11 GMT -5
Think of it as a special skillset where one develops the ability to work with shadows. It's part sleight of hand, part optical illusion, and some magical & supernatural powers gained from the development of these skills manipulating shadow. Some snippets by a post from Munroe provide some good insight from our SD expert. As for playing a shadowdancer, there are a few things to remember: 1.) Shadowdancer isn't a divine class. A lot of people seem to try to make it a divine class. Many applications we see talk about how the character is going to worship the shadows. That is grossly incorrect. A shadowdancer owes no allegiance to a shadowy power such as Mask or Shar, or a shadow demon, greater shadow, or anything of the kind. (Unless the shadowdancer is predisposed toward such a faith.) A shadowdancer attunes himself or herself to the shadows through their technique. A requirement for the class in tabletop is Perform (dance) 4 ranks. This is in addition to the feat and skill requirements present in NWN. So literally the shadowdancer has to be able to dance with the shadows. I think of it as shadows flit about and a shadowdancer needs to be able to emulate that. Shadowdancer is a class gained through skill with obscure technique, not through ritual or offerings to some power. 2.) The shadowdancer's shadow shares the shadowdancer's alignment, not vice versa. When a shadowdancer gains his or her shadow companion at level 3, the shadow should be treated as sharing the shadowdancer's alignment. Even though NWN always makes the shadowdancer's shadow Chaotic Evil, the class is supposed to grant a shadow of any alignment the shadowdancer has, and shadowdancer class has no alignment restriction. The shadow only manifests at level 3, so it isn't the shadow that taunts the shadowdancer to become a shadowdancer, but rather the shadowdancer whose attunement to shadows has become strong enough that his own personality is rubbing off on his own shadow, imbuing it with traces of himself. To this end, the shadow should demonstrate a similar disposition to the shadowdancer himself. If the shadowdancer is LG, the shadow is LG. If the shadowdancer is CE, the shadow should be CE. In my experience with one of the oldest shadowdancers on FRC at the time, I felt she did a good job of showing this because her character was a barely contained ball of rage that basically hated everyone, and she mentioned that she and her shadow occasionally tried to kill each other. (You know, because they're so alike.) Even though the shadow functions as undead mechanically, it is the shadowdancer's shadow so it's not really the soul of someone that died and became a shadow. (In the tabletop rules, the shadow is immune to Turn Undead, but that isn't true in NWN.) If the shadow is destroyed, the shadowdancer has to wait until enough of his essence has "rubbed off" on his new shadow for it to gain sentience. (Though it's not actually very smart, INT 6 or so if my memory serves.) 3.) Everyone makes a big deal out of Hide in Plain Sight, but this is the most basic of the shadowdancer's powers. His true power comes from his shadow companion and his overall ability to manipulate shadows, such as with his powers like Shadow Illusion and Shadow Evade. RP-wise these are very cool powers to RP. 4.) The main thing about playing a shadowdancer is playing up the mystery. 5.) A shadowdancer isn't a ninja or an assassin. Yes, it can be, because it can be any alignment, but that's not what the class is "about." It's about attuning to the shadows, mastering the skill. The Dungeon Master's Guide indicates that shadowdancers sometimes travel in troupes as performers and pockpockets, amazing audiences with their trickery, but ultimately existing on the fringe of society. (That's a paraphrase from memory.) So it's very much about the skill itself. Someone doesn't carve bird houses because there's money in carving bird houses, they carve bird houses because they love bird houses and the birds that come to them. If you're going shadowdancer, don't just reduce it to a ninja, because that doesn't work. (That's more closely represented by the assassin class anyway.) So, yeah, your shadow companion isn't around to taunt you until you get him at shadowdancer level 3, and he should match your alignment at that time. Often, and I do mean often, applications talk about how the shadow is coercing the character to become a shadowdancer. No, please. The shadow companion is the same alignment and can communicate intelligibly with the shadowdancer (though it is never indicated that it can communicate intelligibly to anyone else), and it manifests from the shadowdancer. As for Shadow Daze, Shadow Evade, and Hide in Plain Sight, those are a bit different. They're actually kind of simpler, but in the case of Shadow Daze and Shadow Evade, they don't exist in that way in tabletop, so there's more flexibility with how they're interpreted. Shadow Daze is actually replacing the shadowdancer's tabletop ability of Shadow Illusion, which functions as a concentration-based silent image effect. In other words, it's a single-target fixed-duration effect (Shadow Daze) replacing a multi-target concentration-duration effect (Shadow Illusion), but I still think of it as a similar effect. Basically like the shadowdancer works the shadows to create an effect glossing over the character's eyes to daze them. There is a casting visual on the shadowdancer when the ability is used. Shadow Evade is much the same in that it doesn't exist in D&D and is replacing Shadow Jump, which is a short-range teleport that works like dimension door. It uses the same visual as the spell shadow shield but with a very short duration. It's the one effect I'd suggest using as "pulling the shadows over himself for protection" (him, for your guy, right?) as that's literally what it looks like. The character is enveloped in inky black shadow and it protects him or her. There is a casting visual on the shadowdancer when the ability is used, so a handy emote like *pulls the shadows up around himself* could work just find when that casting. Note that all of these are magical effects so shouldn't function in an anti-magic field or dead magic zone (but for purposes of FRC I know at least Hide in Plain Sight does function mechanically). Hide in Plain Sight is the Supernatural Ability (Su) to disappear even while being observed while within 10 feet of the nearest shadow not the shadowdancer's own. That doesn't mean the shadowdancer has to be standing in the shadow, only that there has to be one within 10 feet of him. (NWN doesn't enforce this, but it's good form to self-enforce it.) This is the best ability to use without an emote, because vanishing without a trace is kind of what it's about. You're there and then you're not. It can also be used to move from one point to another pretty quick without being observed if you hit stealth, move, and come out of stealth somewhere else it appears as though the shadowdancer teleported and so even though you don't have Shadow Jump, it can appear to others as though you're teleporting. As all of these are skill-based abilities, Hide in Plain Sight is still about movement, your guy knows the steps to slip out of view as a supernatural ability. It might even be worthwhile to think of it as the knowledge of dance helps the shadowdancer fulfill the somatic component of the magical effect. That doesn't mean he has to be standing to "dance" out of view or Hide in Plain Sight, or that any emote is necessary. The movement might be too subtle to be observed, or may happen after he's vanished, but the shadows don't visibly move to envelope him when he Hides in Plain Sight, or it wouldn't really be in-Plain-Slight. (In other words, there's no need to emote HiPS.)
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Post by sightblinder on Apr 9, 2021 13:29:11 GMT -5
Thanks for the information! I had actually read DM Munroe's stuff before and just forgot about it. :/ None of this conflicts with my backstory for my SD so that's helpful as well. I would like to delve into some more RP aspects of the SD class but The Crunch isn't the place for that.
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Post by Dimitri on Apr 9, 2021 16:37:08 GMT -5
Reading all that wants me to bring Otto out of his semi retirement..
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Post by Deleted on Apr 9, 2021 19:27:36 GMT -5
What is the justification for saying that a shadow is not evil?
In any case, we are talking about an undead being summoned. I hope there is no denial about that.
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Post by Dimitri on Apr 9, 2021 19:36:08 GMT -5
As was said in the posts above, the Shadow dancers' shadow is quite literally their shadow and personality. Its not an undead being summoned at all.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 9, 2021 20:00:42 GMT -5
A quick check of the 3.5e DM Guide clearly shows the word 'undead' being used to describe the shadow that is summoned.
Page 195:
Summon Shadow (Su): At 3rd level, a shadowdancer can summon a shadow, an undead shade (see the Monster Manual for the shadow's statistics).
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koffie
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Post by koffie on Apr 10, 2021 5:46:50 GMT -5
Game sees it as undead too, try healing it with a potion, not good xD
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koffie
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discord: Koffie#0545
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Post by koffie on Apr 10, 2021 5:50:28 GMT -5
Thanks for the information! I had actually read DM Munroe's stuff before and just forgot about it. :/ None of this conflicts with my backstory for my SD so that's helpful as well. I would like to delve into some more RP aspects of the SD class but The Crunch isn't the place for that. Feel free to hit me up in-game about that, should be fun
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Post by Munroe on Apr 10, 2021 6:46:00 GMT -5
A quick check of the 3.5e DM Guide clearly shows the word 'undead' being used to describe the shadow that is summoned. Page 195: Summon Shadow (Su): At 3rd level, a shadowdancer can summon a shadow, an undead shade (see the Monster Manual for the shadow's statistics). Mechanically it is undead, yes. It's fueled by negative energy, which makes it undead. (Not all undead started out alive, though most did.) It's not the spirit of a dead relative or stranger though, it's the shadow of the shadowdancer, manifesting as undead through the infusion of negative energy. It is not evil because the class specifies that its alignment matches that of the shadowdancer. (So sometimes it is evil, if the shadowdancer is evil.) The "shadow fiend," "shadow lord," and "epic shadowlord" designations on the shadowdancer's shadow are just Bioware's designations that they're more powerful than the basic shadow because the shadowdancer's shadow increases in hit dice as the shadowdancer levels up. The names over their heads don't change what they are, which is the shadow of the shadowdancer. (Remember that characters don't see those designations in-character.) The fact that it says "Summoned" on the shadowdancer's shadow is technically in keeping with the name of the class ability "Summon Shadow (Su)" but the shadowdancer's Summon Shadow ability functions RP-wise like the wizard and sorcerer Summon Familiar abilities. Once the shadow is conjured into its own being at level 3, it is intended as a constant companion. It would be more accurate to call it a Shadow Companion than a Summoned Shadow, but Bioware didn't do that. In the shadowdancer entry, it is specified that the shadowdancer takes an XP penalty (200 XP per SD level, DC 15 Fort to resist the XP loss) if the shadow is destroyed or dismissed, and cannot summon a replacement shadow companion (my label) for a month. This penalty isn't as harsh as the effect should a mage's familiar die or be dismissed, since they get the same XP penalty (200 XP per sorc or wizard level, DC 15 Fort to resist the XP loss) and can't summon a new familiar for a year and a day, but it's still an indicator that the companion is no mere summon. (The duration limit is likely shorter for shadowdancer also because the sorc/wiz familiar can alternatively be raised or resurrected without any penalty to its level, while the shadowdancer's shadow cannot be restored that way.) None of these things are apparent from the outside though, so a paladin can respond to it like any other undead and might have to be convinced to behave otherwise toward it. Of course if FRC allowed paladins to Detect Evil at-will, as in D&D, that would alleviate that conflict for any non-evil shadowdancers and their shadows, but it would also immediately out every other evil character, so that option isn't there.
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Post by malclave on Apr 10, 2021 20:25:48 GMT -5
Of course if FRC allowed paladins to Detect Evil at-will, as in D&D, that would alleviate that conflict for any non-evil shadowdancers and their shadows, but it would also immediately out every other evil character, so that option isn't there. But think of the fun of Paladins detecting other Paladins as Moderate-Strong Evil because someone cast Protection from Good on them.
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