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Post by sightblinder on Sept 10, 2020 11:26:40 GMT -5
I've recently put in a request for a SD character, and I was hoping for some feedback from others with the class on what they think of them as they are quite different on this server than in normal NWN. Also, I could've sworn I saw somewhere on the forums where they get DR as they get higher level, but now I can't find it. Perhaps it was somewhere else I saw this?
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Post by nothingtosee on Sept 10, 2020 11:47:53 GMT -5
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Post by sightblinder on Sept 10, 2020 15:35:16 GMT -5
Hmm, if it isn't implemented here it should be. 45 seconds to refresh is *way* too long to have to wait to be able to HiPS again. I don't even think most NWN combats last that long. Certainly not at low level.
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Post by Fluffy the Mad on Sept 10, 2020 16:15:44 GMT -5
Hmm, if it isn't implemented here it should be. 45 seconds to refresh is *way* too long to have to wait to be able to HiPS again. I don't even think most NWN combats last that long. Certainly not at low level. Why? The changes to HIPS are set as such to prevent the ubiquitous 1 level dip. The changes only require five levels for maximum benefit as it is. They don't need free DR when the whole idea of the character is to hit and run, not hold their own in sustained combat. |
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Post by sightblinder on Sept 10, 2020 16:26:37 GMT -5
Hitting and running only works when you can hide again. The DR is part of NWN EE isn't it? Why *not* be implemented on the server? It certainly isn't because you want to stay true to FRC 3.0 in respect to SDs. it would also give someone a reason to get more than 5 levels of SD.
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Wylan
New Member
Doing my own thing Boo-boo.
Posts: 52 
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Post by Wylan on Sept 10, 2020 17:40:17 GMT -5
I have avoided bringing this up since I started playing here. But now that this has come up, I'm legitimately weighing in.
That "1 Level Dip" is EASY to solve, and I call B.S. on it. The delay is there to keep other classes from complaining about SDs in PvP situations where HiPS is spammed. Guess what. Detection boosting gear and/or True Seeing are a thing. Utilize them.
How do you avoid that dip? You simply require someone to take multiple levels of the class. Anyone taking a single level should either be forced to remake or re-level their character. SD is a PRC that is designed to make Rogues have some small capability of NOT getting the #@&$ing crap stomped out of them if they're on their own.
Wylan will STILL get killed in the Kobold caves outside of Greatgaunt at level @#$&ing 14. Seriously?
8hp per level is NOT enough for this. Period. 8hp/lvl here means you live through maybe 2-3 more hits. Because that's going to make a difference when you're surrounded?
This 45 second delay, and even the eventual drop still effectively hamstrings us. Sure, you can say all their other abilities make up for that. To which, I will laugh in your face.
Summon Shadow? Ha! The shadow summoned is a joke, and gets murdered faster than a wizard with no spells. It does NOT hold aggro at all either, meaning that enemy is pounding your face in while the shadow swings and misses almost all of it's attacks. And that's on a server with a normal difficulty.
Shadow Daze and Shield? Riiiiiiiight. Ok Sure, they're ok (at best!)...but they come at such later levels that they're really worthless especially on a server with such a ludicrous difficulty.
Do I expect any of this to change? Not a chance in the Nine Hells. Why? Because reasons. Does this mean I'm going to change anything about my character or my playing? Nope. I'm here for the RP not powerbuilding or grinding. At this point, I like to think I've established that fact.
That does not lessen the bitterness I have over many issues or aspects that I've encountered here. That said, as I stated in the post on floating names. NWN is an ACTION game that has been bastardized and converted into a Role Playing Game. Therefore, I suck it up, rub some mud in the wounds, drink water, drive on, and pour my energy and effort into my RP.
Adapt and overcome.
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Post by Fluffy the Mad on Sept 10, 2020 18:05:06 GMT -5
The shadow evade ability already has it, there's no changes to the class made beyond the HIPS change. I wasn't endeavoring to argue the merits of the class, either, just trying to clarify what sightblinder was asking for. The class doesn't really need additional DR atop that. As for Wylan, the solution of delayed HIPS -is- the requirement to take multiple levels. With five it's a round and a half, a whole three seconds per activation more than standard. Not a huge difference.
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Wylan
New Member
Doing my own thing Boo-boo.
Posts: 52
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Post by Wylan on Sept 10, 2020 18:08:29 GMT -5
"3 seconds -MORE- than -STANDARD-."
I -really- hate to be this stand-offish and combative on this, but you just said it right there.
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Post by sightblinder on Sept 10, 2020 22:42:55 GMT -5
Well, I didn't start this thread to complain about the class. Overall I think the SD class is *interesting* from a RP perspective. Having not actually played a SD on this server all I have to go by on how functional it is from a combat perspective is Wylan's comments. I have to admit, it sounds worrisome. 45 seconds on the surface of it sounds like its a bit over the top in terms of answering the problem of people only taking a 1 level dip in the class. Wylan's experiences seem to back up my concerns too. I have no doubt the reasons for it were discussed at great length at the time though. I do know from experience that HiPS without those changes means that a SD can pretty much PvM to his heart's delight without much fear of consequences, so I see the need for adjustment. Back to the topic of the thread however, is it a fun class to play? At the very least, I can't see SD being any worse than playing a rogue, but with an 8HD instead of a 6. Am I wrong?
Edited to add: Is there any reason to get more than 5 levels in SD on this server?
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Post by lucesi on Sept 10, 2020 23:31:34 GMT -5
As a player with a Shadow Dancer I have to say it's a pretty good class to have - probably my most powerful build, certainly the hardest to kill. As far as I can tell it's not 45 seconds between being able to activate HiPS but 20 seconds (you get a countdown in your textbox) and this gets lower with the more levels you take.
Essentially you get to have almost complete tactical control of the battlefield, able to choose when and where you engage your foes. And its a lot of fun I think.
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Post by purgatori69 on Sept 11, 2020 5:38:17 GMT -5
*appears out of the shadows to add some general stuff* Shadow evade though short has higher DR as you level becoming very impressive at higher levels though duration is always 5rds and 3 uses per day. Hips duration reduces at higher levels to near nothing Shadow becomes more powerful with concealment and pritty nice Dr as well. *note early level shadow is fairly weak and not holding aggro RP wise lack of control for a green shadow dancer.* I personally have not had much issue with my shadow fighting but I am mindful of it and the groups I am engaging. It is a decoy not a shield. Reason for more then Five levels, Epic shadow dancer Epic Shadow Fiend Feat, also max leveled SD get almost all the rogue feats for free, Shadow daze DC becomes higher, there lots of reasons to take more then 5 levels. For me in particular my character wants to be able to say she is a true master of the shadows so RP reason for the character. From what I have read above very few have really looked at progression of SD they become stronger at higher levels really strong actually. Slightblinder if you have more questions PM me I would enjoy talking about the class mechanicially and RP wise. *personal comment* Also spells like True Sight .. most common and others can be beat. There not sure thing to detect a truely masterful shadow dancer.  |
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Post by mandene on Sept 11, 2020 5:46:30 GMT -5
Don't forget, that epic SD gets a bonus feat at every 3rd level, while epic rogue gets it at every 4th.
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Post by Church of Bane on Sept 11, 2020 5:52:18 GMT -5
Hitting and running only works when you can hide again. The DR is part of NWN EE isn't it? Why *not* be implemented on the server? It certainly isn't because you want to stay true to FRC 3.0 in respect to SDs. it would also give someone a reason to get more than 5 levels of SD. Actually staying true to source material and RAW (rules as written) should be something we all strive to do. This should be our way to play something as close to tabletop D&D in a digital platform that is not a group of people with webcams, ROLL20, and dice (not that there is anything wrong with that). Let's not treat FRC, and NWN, as a replacement for WoW. |
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Post by Razgriz on Sept 11, 2020 8:12:11 GMT -5
I have avoided bringing this up since I started playing here. But now that this has come up, I'm legitimately weighing in. Adapt and overcome. The problem or the unfair part in PvP, is not the spamming alone. HIPS causes the opponent to drop combat every time it is activated, even if the opponent has high detection skills or magic to detect concealed foes. This is why fighting those Rakshasas is so annoying. I completely agree about level dips though. Unless the level is for unlocking a PRC perhaps, there should be a minimum of something like 5 levels of a class (any class) taken before and while multiclassing. |
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Post by purgatori69 on Sept 11, 2020 8:32:21 GMT -5
Don't quote me on this but I am pretty sure Getting approval for SD to take only one level to get HIPS is likely going to be denied. Also in general in my time playing here though there is no rule against only taking one level in a class it is sorta frowned on like Min. Maxing a character. Again personal point of view.
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Post by nemusator on Sept 11, 2020 8:54:52 GMT -5
I don't see a single reason to go SD just for one level. Especially since a mere invisibility potion gives you a sanctuary effect.
Masters of stealth, entertainers, mystery... So much room for creativity RP-wise. Mechanically wise offers so much tactical and combat versatility...
As for the Raks, once I detect them with my monk, they never make me drop my combat. I presume HIPS only make you cancel if detection fails, unlike sanctuary effect. Not sure about HIPS PvP timing rule, but using it every three rounds or alike seems fair.
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Post by sightblinder on Sept 11, 2020 10:01:14 GMT -5
Don't quote me on this but I am pretty sure Getting approval for SD to take only one level to get HIPS is likely going to be denied. Also in general in my time playing here though there is no rule against only taking one level in a class it is sorta frowned on like Min. Maxing a character. Again personal point of view. I don't think anyone here is advocating for only taking one level of SD though. |
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Post by nothingtosee on Sept 11, 2020 10:04:59 GMT -5
One-level dip into SD may not makes sense, here, but IMO with standard nwn there is hardly a good reason for anything else. A 20monk/19rogue/1SD elsewhere is my most survivable character, anywhere. And yes, HIPS to break combat (sure if detection fails, but the SD will likely have maxed MS), make an opponent flat-footed, get sneak attacks.
Though I would argue, that in many environments, a rogue can usually run and jump around a corner to go back into hiding without HIPS by just breaking the line of sight. I have yet to make my first SD on FRC, but I very much expect to have separat quickslots for both HIPS and normal stealth. Which is to say I don't feel like the HIPS timer is such a deal-breaker. (And that's the main change from vanilla nwn.)
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Post by sightblinder on Sept 11, 2020 10:40:59 GMT -5
You bring up something that has always bothered me on this server. The breaking line of sight and going stealthy does allow you to get more sneak attacks, but the monsters still come right at you and attack even though they "'can't see you". What is up with that?
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Post by purgatori69 on Sept 11, 2020 10:50:47 GMT -5
Glitch? or mechanical? Even though they come right at you still get sneak attack if made hide and move silent. Even when you HIPS if you do it at the wrong moment ( when line of sight is broken) monsters will come straight for you. So you have to be aware of your surroundings |
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Post by Southpaw on Sept 11, 2020 10:59:06 GMT -5
Monsters do the same with invisibility potions, and I’ve found that once they lock on, even attacking and going back invisible while in line of sight usually still doesn’t break them off. I try to adjust by making sure I’m in line of sight when I disappear, but it’s annoying, especially when the enemy is well over your head to fight.
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Post by Lady Frost on Sept 11, 2020 11:14:19 GMT -5
I completely agree about level dips though. Unless the level is for unlocking a PRC perhaps, there should be a minimum of something like 5 levels of a class (any class) taken before and while multiclassing. No... There used to be a min level requirement and it's gone. Let it stay gone. A character that dips into fighter, rogue or bard for example to be able to get the feats and skill points to help represent their characters should be encouraged. |
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Post by Razgriz on Sept 11, 2020 12:10:04 GMT -5
I completely agree about level dips though. Unless the level is for unlocking a PRC perhaps, there should be a minimum of something like 5 levels of a class (any class) taken before and while multiclassing. No... There used to be a min level requirement and it's gone. Let it stay gone. A character that dips into fighter, rogue or bard for example to be able to get the feats and skill points to help represent their characters should be encouraged. From what I see these days, what it mostly encourages are powerbuilds and skill dumping/banking. Tumble, spellcraft and disicpline raised to the 30's or beyond with just one or two level of a class is ridiculous. Either way, I doubt any change like this is going to happen, but I do wonder why was the rule removed. It is also bad class and game design though. Fighters are so frontloaded that they get their main perks early on, same for Shadow Dancers, Rogues and some others. |
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Post by Southpaw on Sept 11, 2020 12:23:04 GMT -5
No... There used to be a min level requirement and it's gone. Let it stay gone. A character that dips into fighter, rogue or bard for example to be able to get the feats and skill points to help represent their characters should be encouraged. From what I see these days, what it mostly encourages are powerbuilds and skill dumping/banking. Tumble, spellcraft and disicpline raised to the 30's or beyond with just one or two level of a class is ridiculous. Either way, I doubt any change like this is going to happen, but I do wonder why was the rule removed. It is also bad class and game design though. Fighters are so frontloaded that they get their main perks early on, same for Shadow Dancers, Rogues and some others. I generally agree with this, especially if a character is built with epic levels in mind. If you build a fighter/weapon master/rogue for instance, by waiting until epics to take rogue levels, you can get all the tumble points of a pure rogue for AC without losing any AB from the levels where rogue pauses in its progression at pre-epic levels, when the classes are designed to force you to trade one for the other. Likewise for warrior casters, like a fighter/wizard or fighter/cleric, you can get all the casting ability without losing any AB. I do agree that's powerbuilding at a degree I'd not want encouraged. And I believe if I remember correctly that years ago people in the know said the rules were dropped for lack of consistent enforcement. I have to admit I wouldn't want to be the DM periodically skimming through people's character sheets looking for infractions. |
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Post by Fluffy the Mad on Sept 11, 2020 14:55:46 GMT -5
I don't see a single reason to go SD just for one level. Especially since a mere invisibility potion gives you a sanctuary effect. Masters of stealth, entertainers, mystery... So much room for creativity RP-wise. Mechanically wise offers so much tactical and combat versatility... As for the Raks, once I detect them with my monk, they never make me drop my combat. I presume HIPS only make you cancel if detection fails, unlike sanctuary effect. Not sure about HIPS PvP timing rule, but using it every three rounds or alike seems fair. Nine seconds is a round and a half, not three rounds. A round is six seconds- keeping in mind that you typically cannot activate ANY combat mode, including stealth, mid-round. Usually it delays to the next round, or at the very least the next flurry. You bring up something that has always bothered me on this server. The breaking line of sight and going stealthy does allow you to get more sneak attacks, but the monsters still come right at you and attack even though they "'can't see you". What is up with that? This is an issue most often with pathfinding and what placeables or objects are impassable versus breaking LOS. Sometimes it's just an artifact of lag or other situations. It's not strictly something that can easily be worked around, or it would have been done by now. |
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Post by Warlord on Sept 11, 2020 16:09:45 GMT -5
No... There used to be a min level requirement and it's gone. Let it stay gone. A character that dips into fighter, rogue or bard for example to be able to get the feats and skill points to help represent their characters should be encouraged. From what I see these days, what it mostly encourages are powerbuilds and skill dumping/banking. Tumble, spellcraft and disicpline raised to the 30's or beyond with just one or two level of a class is ridiculous. Either way, I doubt any change like this is going to happen, but I do wonder why was the rule removed. It is also bad class and game design though. Fighters are so frontloaded that they get their main perks early on, same for Shadow Dancers, Rogues and some others. We never had a base-class level minimum rule, nor would I encourage it. It just becomes another form of script to power build differently anyway.However for readers looking on, we do still have our PRC ruling - just in case: frc.proboards.com/thread/29394/server-rule-expanded-prestige-classes |
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Post by Lady Frost on Sept 11, 2020 20:13:01 GMT -5
From what I see these days, what it mostly encourages are powerbuilds and skill dumping/banking. Tumble, spellcraft and disicpline raised to the 30's or beyond with just one or two level of a class is ridiculous. Either way, I doubt any change like this is going to happen, but I do wonder why was the rule removed. It is also bad class and game design though. Fighters are so frontloaded that they get their main perks early on, same for Shadow Dancers, Rogues and some others. We never had a base-class level minimum rule, nor would I encourage it. It just becomes another form of script to power build differently anyway.However for readers looking on, we do still have our PRC ruling - just in case: frc.proboards.com/thread/29394/server-rule-expanded-prestige-classesThere was a 3 level requirement for each class by level 20 for a while very short time. |
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Post by shivers on Sept 14, 2020 8:35:48 GMT -5
i hope you get it sightbinder! you deserve it.
i tried 3 times - just gave up.
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Post by DM Grizwald on Sept 14, 2020 10:25:38 GMT -5
There was a 3 level requirement for each class by level 20 for a while very short time. I also remember there being a three level requirement for multi-classing. |
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Post by DOT on Sept 21, 2020 7:35:12 GMT -5
Rp wise what’s the deal with summoning shadows? Is that technically an evil act? Just curious
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