The art of intimidating PCs

[Grozer]

dirkperfect said:

Fact is....few people use lore for anything either...give them some damn sourcebooks and they think they have the right to quote em as if their character knows it all. Never making one Lore check...its used mostly to identify items plain and simple. Some of us whop want it to be more worth it try to use it as a sort of General knowledge skill as well but many won't use it and fewer still with no points in it at all somehow know every detail of every monster they encounter and know all about the planes, gods and so on and so forth.


Most of us do it different ways. Nor will there ever be a agreement on it since no rules have been layed out for FRC on intimidating someone. Does that mean using your logic that if we go with no Lore or spellcraft points at all that we all have to play idiots who can offer no knowledge unless we take the skill? Thats impractical and I bet none of us play it that way. Skills are more meant to do obscure things and break undecided problems while RPing. Not to decide our every make an move or how we are going to react in every situation or treat every situation. None of us have time to make a roll for every skill...The dicebag technically could take care of all this but thats kinda pushing it IMO.

Well I would argue that just because people dont use the skill correctly, i.e. Lore doesnt mean its right. And we have posted here before that simply "you" knowing source material does not mean your character knows it. So do we simply just "allow" other skills to be ignored because this one seems to be?

To your second I never said not having any points in lore would make you an idiot... lets not go to the extreme. Some things are common sense and have nothing to do with lore.

[Booze Hound]

holy god I wish this thread would go away

[anjb01]

Lore is an easy one. It is and has always been a DM regulated skill. Used any other way and it doesn't work.

[DM Valkyrie]

holy god I wish this thread would go away

All right, everyone get your final says in. This thread will be locked up tomorrow. All good stuff and some good tips, but, I don't see it progressing.

Good discussion though

[Driderman]

quadhund said:

You shouldn't expect a certain reaction from a player unless there are rules applied in the way that they should respond.

That's exactly my problem. Do we really require hard and fast rules to play with others?
Thats a bit like denying you were shot during cops and robbers as a kid...
Aren't we mature and experienced roleplayers enough that we can play along with others and let them have the spotlight for a bit, does everyone on here really need to be the "star" all the time?

NB: Thanks for your input all, it's been most interesting and enlightening

[Hackmaster]

Grozer you stated : "I have sunk points into intimidate for Ranan because I believe in order to intimidate people you have to have the skill. If we use that logic that the points don't matter then I can roll up a wizard and just RP he has lore or spellcraft."

Ummm...hehe you already had gone to the extreme example. I just retorted this statement with an extreme of my own. ;D

Also I am the one that said does it make us idiots if we have no points in lore and in the form of a question haha I never said you said that you thilly man.

Common knowledge is what I think you mean which don't need a Lore check which again....I said rolls are needed for the obscure or undecided and should not be used for everything you do so I think we agree with each other but are totally misinterpreting how each other is saying it.

Also I realize talking about source information and using Lore has been discussed before but it was relevant to what we were discussing as an example so I used it to compare.

In my final argument, No...we should not ignore skills and I am not saying screw intimidation (before you say You didn't say I said that lol I know. Confused yet? Good...lets move on then ;D ). In fact, if a standard is layed down on how we should go about using the skill and resisting I will follow it with no problems.

Their IS a good thing about this discussion actually and it is that it alerted many of us to the flaw that frc lacks a system in using the intimidate skill so now the community is more aware and will think more about their characters reactions when it comes to intimidation.

If you feel that strongly about it and there is nothing wrong with the way you feel about it. I am not even sure if we were completely opposed to each others view point. haha Then I propose the DM's talk to each other about it and come up with a system then post it for us. Fix it now that it has so much attention. It seems nobody is opposed to the dice rolling and I am not opposed to it either.

More or less I was stating how I have dealt with it in the past. I am not the only one though as I have never in two years had a player try to roll an intimidation roll on me. Not Ranan, not nobody, I have never even seen it happen to others either. I am not saying it doesn't happen just cause I have not seen it but I am saying it's obvious to me it don't happen often and is in incredibly rare or at least only in isolated situations.

As for us all being adults sure I hate the I shot you, with the other responding no you didn't too. God knows I knew a player on here that would just RP that she punched you and you were dazed or knocked out or led your character out of the inn pulling on your ears like some little kid and cared nothing for levels or rolls or anything with no permission even asked of the character. Nor would this same person allow it to happen to their own character.

That character was always one of the no you didn't shoot me crowd but first to yell I shot you. ;D So I don't want that sorta thing happening either heres also what I don't want happening though and thats a bunch of player's having different rolling systems for intimidation and declaring theirs the right one when it comes time to use it. Lets at least have something we all know and can trust.

Anyways good points raised Grozer other then the this topic is not going anywhere statement I for one am more aware of it now and have learned more through the discussion so I am afraid have to completely disagree with you about that, but I still love ya you evil banite you. ;D

When the smoke clears though after the lock down on this thread there is going to be Phelzaron and Ranan staring each other down ready to go out in a blaze of glory summoning the heavens and hells to do our battles hehe

Cheers

[Quadhund/Greenhouse]

driderman said:

quadhund said:

You shouldn't expect a certain reaction from a player unless there are rules applied in the way that they should respond.

That's exactly my problem. Do we really require hard and fast rules to play with others?
Thats a bit like denying you were shot during cops and robbers as a kid...
Aren't we mature and experienced roleplayers enough that we can play along with others and let them have the spotlight for a bit, does everyone on here really need to be the "star" all the time?

NB: Thanks for your input all, it's been most interesting and enlightening

I don't think people play their character to be the "star" all the time, I just think they play their character the way they want to. And you can't really fault them and judge their character when it is their character. They know the PC better than anyone else and know how they will respond in certain situations.

I will say that most people do want to be a badass though, and what's to really stop them? Perhaps after a few ass whooping's they will not be so badass. I know Hroth used to be much more full of himself ... but it could just be that he is getting old now.

[Grozer]

dirkperfect said:

When the smoke clears though after the lock down on this thread there is going to be Phelzaron and Ranan staring each other down ready to go out in a blaze of glory summoning the heavens and hells to do our battles hehe

Cheers

Heh no worries Phel, we go out in a blaze of glory huh? I am still thinking would be very cool with all the summons/spells we can throw at each other, unfortunately I am fairly certain PC would crash, HA!

Unfortunately you might need to get in line to get that shot, seems there is a line forming again... Manshin is in front, followed by several others.

[Munroe]

valkyrie said:

holy god I wish this thread would go away

All right, everyone get your final says in. This thread will be locked up tomorrow. All good stuff and some good tips, but, I don't see it progressing.

Good discussion though

I don't really think the thread should be locked unless it degrades to a flamewar, which hasn't happened at all. If you don't like reading it/discussing it, reading it is not required. Discussions don't have to reach "agreement" to be productive, they can foster understanding without consensus.

I personally don't have much more to say about Intimidate than what I've said already. I do think characters without points in Intimidate shouldn't be intimidating in conversation even if Intimidate is never rolled. I generally feel that when a person gets out the dicebag to roll bluff/persuade/intimidate, that is a failure on their part to actually roleplay that ability. However, if you put points into it, sometimes rolling is a good way of "showing" that you have the ability to bluff/persuade/intimidate, whether a "save" is made against it or not. Even on a successful "intimidate" check, the outcome in unpredictable. If a character feels backed to the wall, intimidation can make them more likely to fight. I don't think everyone responds the same way when intimidated. Me, when I'm intimidated, I personally have a tendency to start trying to figure out how to gain advantage.

In the summer when I was in high school, I was walking back to my house from downtown. The junior high school was about two blocks from my house and I had previous problems with a juvenile delinquent who was in ninth grade there. As I was walking past the school, he and about four other kids were hanging out at the school parking lot. They started throwing rocks at me and two of his friends (both bigger than him but both smaller and more athletic than me), started following me up the street, at about 50 feet behind. Just walking.

I knew they were following me...I don't remember if they were calling taunts or not. I was normally a fast walker, but I also knew my house was only two blocks away, so rather than getting jumped away from my house, I slowed my pace so they caught up to me--still just walking--right in front of my house. When I was in front of my house (ten feet from the gate of the yard), I turned around and said something "cheery" like "Hey, what's up?" and the first of the two guys, who had been about a step from me at that point, stepped up and punched me in the jaw, knocking off my glasses.

My friend (who was a grade behind me), my sister (who was in first grade), and my friend's sister (who was friends with my sister and was in about 4th grade) were sitting on my front porch. My sister ran inside and told my mom that I was in a fight while I kicked the first attacker in the shoulder. I am extremely near-sighted so I couldn't see any more of him than a blur after he punched off my glasses, but I didn't give him a chance to do anything else except back away across the street while I kept kicking him. The other guy ran up and grabbed my glasses, and as far as I knew, didn't do anything else. My mother came outside and demanded the one return my glasses (which he did), then the two guys left. The police showed up a while later and we all made police reports. In mine I may have neglected to mention that I paced myself so they would catch-up to me when I reached my house because I wanted to fight them but wanted advantage.

Of course this was a few years ago when the chance they had a knife or gun was lower. They were roughing me up on behalf of their buddy, after all.

The lesson of that story is, they intimidated me. Because they intimidated me, I didn't fight them on the street where I first encountered them but instead made the scenario more advantageous for me.

For some reason I have a lot of stories of being attacked when I was in high school and junior high by kids I didn't know. For some reason I never learned to stop letting them get a free hit in. Had one guy who slugged me then insisted I take off my glasses. I reached up and started to take them off (I was surrounded in this instance by three guys) and as I pulled them off my face, I took off running. That time I didn't run to my house but past the street it was on and around the next block, where they finally caught up to me, knocked me down, and kicked me. (Strangely not too much though, maybe they were tired from running?) That incident was before the one above, so maybe I decided to change tactics. My tactic in that one had been to outrun them and circle back to my house rather than to fight, and it hadn't succeeded.

Oh yeah, and regarding Lore, I do make characters make Lore checks from time to time. Even made Phelzaron make one once, as I recall.

[Manshin]

Well... gee Munroe... that was... depressing. heh. I certainly hope things have picked up since. Ah well, what the little blurb on Conan said. "That which does not kill us only makes us stronger"... except aspestus.

I wanted to talk about one particular point. People say: When im intimidated, I react XXX way. or that people react differantly to intimidation.

Its important to note that "intimidate" is NOT "taunt" People can react any number of ways to being taunted... but being intimidated is differant. Taunt is trying to goad someone into a fight, intimidate is usually to make someone think twice before starting a fight... its natures way of avoiding a fight without looking like a puss.

These "reactions" could still be valid, but should come AFTER the fact. Because at the moment you are "Successfuly" intimidated, you should adopt a neutral attitude... and for those who can put their pride on the side, perhaps even a bit shaken. The fact is, you only get fiesty or mad when the person "fails" his attempt to intimidate... not if he succeeds. After all, if he succeeds, you are intimidated and should therefore be of the mindset that he has the upper hand. What you do after the present circumstance is up to you. Some people will seek revenge, others will seek information, it doesnt matter, but for the convorsation where the intimidation was successful, you are not hostile because a successful check means that your character is either unsure of himself or unsure of his enemy and thus... cautious, or... neutral.

Also, bare in mind that intimidation is the "act" of looking or seeming intimidating. As opposed to actually "being" intimidating. This is driven home by the fact that Intimidate is a CHA based skill as opposed to a STR based skill. Players like Ranan and Hrothgar are intimidating because of their "well earned" reputations. For this, I really think RP is more important than dice rolls. People should know better, and an OOC tell reminder might be all that is needed... For that big guy in the bar with the big axe... people should just keep in mind that their characters should fear death, but to convince a higher level character who is used to fighting giants that he is tough, he is still going to have to put on an "air" of confidence and experiance. Fancy Armor woudnt be enough to fool a truly experianced warrior, and that is why the skill is important in that instance as well.

One way we can help this is that when a duel occurs because of somone lipping off to someone who "looks" tough and looses... they should respawn rather than just being raised and suffering no ill consiquence at all. At least that instills some fear of death.

When it comes to the skill however, this is someone using their acting skills, or doing their best to try and seem intimidating, and that is why the dice are important. Sure, they may actually be a wuss... but a player with a high intimidate score may be a proffesional con-man. Maybe he wants to pretend like he is some high-up fireknife agent with twenty homies around the corner... and he uses this to intimidate people. Well, if he has 20 ranks in it, it shouldnt be any differant than making a perform check or hiding in shadows... of course, RP is ALWAYS a part of it, you cant just walk up and role a check without a little RP to accompany.

[sangrow]

I really dont see the point of this discussion...Everyone should play their character to the best of their abilities and that is not to force reactions on other players. There is no point in making a description "this guy really looks mean and scares the pants of people" because that wont happen if you dont play in manner that actually does that.

This whole "Im big mean and have an axe" argument dont even apply in my reality in the world of DnD. If you have died 10 times and gotten raised what does an great axe in your face actually matter? Sure you dont want to die but its not like its final now is it? And a ogre/giant is way more physically impressive than any character anyways.

No give me a cleric or wizard that tells you they will raise your corpse in forever service of evil deeds or kill every person that ever was in contact with you and destroy every chance of a resurrection then you may play the intimidation card.

So no...barbarian with IQ 8 with an greataxe isnt very intimidating in my book and for the moment I just dont have any character that would be especially impressed by one of those intimidators.

If a character for some reason would attack me verbally and do a OOC "Ive got intimidation 20" I probably would back down in the manner that person acts.

A note to some people out there Ive had an encounter with intimidation. I played my Sangrow Greyrook character and was soloing Orc cave when a band of obviously evil looking people suddenly appeared behind me and asked if i was one of those hero types. I can honestly say I felt my character was crappin in his pants but I decided to play it cool and stand up for myself in a suttle non threatning manner.

After a couple of minutes of verbal fencing it ended with the band leaving me alone with a apparant note in one of the fellas book "may be useful in the future". I can tell you it was quite a picnick dealing with the orcs after that.

The point is they intimidated me in RP there was never a question of any intimidation rolls it was a natural thing and a natural behaviour. I had no idea what level they were and they probably didnt know mine. It worked out fine and I got a great memorable experience from it. The fact it was just a respawn in case of a fight wasnt even in my head at the time and that says a lot of the great RP that was going on there.

If you want to intimidate EARN it dont hide behind dice or skills. If you arent good at it dont play it or train by trial and error. Dont demand other players to facilitate your every desire make them want to.

[moulinous]

20 of his homies...hehe...now that is funny. it is hard for me to play intimadated...even though when i see certain people, i am but Guldar is not really too bad about it. Could they squash me with ease? *shrugs* so what? as Guldar has said a few times..."Der are wirst tings den death"...and dishonor would be one for a dwarf. Acting intimadated, which Guldie does get, but still giving a little sass is understood. Just use the other things in your arsenal. I will have my pc be quiet when need be, though he still will mutter under his breath things like*screws him* which really only makes me feel better. It annoys me sometimes when whoever i am muttering about always seems to hear me, but hey, its the nature of the beast right? how many people do not mutter things when they hafta talk to some jerk of a boss or some bully who is used to getting his or her way? anyhows, not sure if this sitituation will get resolved or if there really is even one...just send a tell ooc if you think you ar offending anyone would be my suggestion...you can always work it out somehow...*cheesy music plays in the background*

[Munroe]

Most people generally don't mutter during confrontations. They may have an internal dialog, but muttering? That's going to get somebody killed.

[anjb01]

Here's what the book says. Can't everyone just use this?
It also says it can be used untrained. So to end that argument started on page 4, you don't need to put points in intimidate. But it sure helps.


Intimidate

Base Ability: Charisma
Must be Trained: No
Armor Check: No
Synergy Bonus: +2 Bonus if you have 5 ranks in Bluff
Special: Persuasion feat grants +2 bonus
In Class For: Barbarian, Fighter, Rogue

This skill is used to change someone's behavior.

For each size category you are larger than your opponent, you receive a +4 bonus.
For each size category you are smaller than your opponent, you receive a -4 penalty.

You cannot make an intimidate roll against an opponent who is immune to fear or is unintelligent.

Change Attitude:
Time: 1 minute
Retry: No
Take 10: No
Take 20: No

When attempting to change a target's attitude with threats, make an opposed check vs. your target's modified level check (1d20 + target's Level/HD + target's wisdom modifier + modifiers for saves vs. fear).

If successful, target is treated as "Friendly" as long as you are in his presence plus 10-60 minutes. Then it becomes "Unfriendly". If it was previously "Unfriendly", it becomes "Hostil".

If you fail by 5 or more than the target provides you with useless or incorrect information or otherwise frustrates your efforts.

Attitude	Means	Possible Actions
Hostile	Will take risks to hurt you	Attack, interfere, berate, flee
Unfriendly	Wishes you ill	Mislead, gossip, avoid, watch suspiciously, insult
Indifferent	Doesn't much care	Socially acceptable interaction
Friendly	Wishes you well	Chat, Advise, Offer limited help, Advocate
Helpful	Will take risks to help you	Protect, Back up, Heal, Aid

Demoralize opponents
Time: 1 minute
Retry: No
Take 10: No
Take 20: No

You can weaken the resolve of someone that you threaten in melee. Make an opposed check vs. your target's modified level check (1d20 + target's Level/HD + target's wisdom modifier + modifiers for saves vs. fear).

If successful, the target is shaken for one round. A shaken character receives a -2 penalty to attack rolls, skill checks, ability checks, and saving throws.

Direct a Crowd
Time: Free Action
Retry: No
Take 10: No
Take 20: No

By making an intimidate check vs. DC 20, you can make a crowd move in a direction you desire. If another creature is directing the crowd (with either diplomacy or Intimidate) the one with the highest check wins.

[ShadowCatJen]

anjb01 said:

Can't everyone just use this?

Don't mean to undermine you, but it's not a case of what needs to be rolled for the chance to intimidate or simply going by a "list" of how a PC will react.

For me, a good deal of roleplay needs to supersede or precede the need for a dice roll. Have it that your character just comes up goes *glares* and makes a dice roll to intimidate, one of them will just smile in return and think him odd and the other won't notice at all cause she's blind.

I think what needs to be kept to mind is that you're not going to get the reaction you want from every player because each player does things a little differently. We could, and have so far, continue to debating it, but what needs to happen for those that are frustrated on the matter is this:

Take it with a grain of salt.

There are far too many varying degrees of playing style here to put an absolute rule on it. Anyone who's tried to DM Pen and Paper for 10+ people will attest to this fact. Add into this that there is typically 15+ people on the server at any given time without a DM about and you can imagine the sort of playing style clashes that can occur if you don't give yourself a little flexibility.

[Driderman]

Am taking it with a grain of salt, I was just trying to raise an intelligent discussion on the topic which obviously succeded, even above my expectations.

And for the record, thats an IQ 120 barbarian with that greataxe, mates ;D

[Hackmaster]

manshin said:

I wanted to talk about one particular point. People say: When im intimidated, I react XXX way. or that people react differantly to intimidation.

Manshin....are you trying to say people react with porn? ;D Why does everything lead to porn with you people!

[DM Valkyrie]

And with that.....

*ka-chink*