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Post by kasama on Oct 22, 2019 15:05:47 GMT -5
Adding onto what Archivist's statement... how come everybody forgets the in between shift thru Neutrality. Kas had a discussion ICly yesterday about how they just killed something that was good because how attacks were getting thru protections from evil.. to which Kas replied - "guess you never heard of nuetrality"
I am still and always will be a firm believer that the most evil of alignments is true neutral
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Post by mandene on Oct 22, 2019 15:30:18 GMT -5
Adding onto what Archivist's statement... how come everybody forgets the in between shift thru Neutrality. Kas had a discussion ICly yesterday about how they just killed something that was good because how attacks were getting thru protections from evil.. to which Kas replied - "guess you never heard of nuetrality" I am still and always will be a firm believer that the most evil of alignments is true neutral It's also the most chaotic!
I played TN in the past.
The chaos I was able to spread with it.
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Post by Razgriz on Oct 22, 2019 17:48:10 GMT -5
*Slowly realizing that the once kind and noble warrior who he called friend could no longer be redeemed, the paladin reaches the fateful conclusion:* "Only a Blackguard deals in absolutes *He draws the Holy Avenger. The blade glowing in golden light, keeping darkness away*" heh ;)
To be frank though, if some players are playing ALIGNMENT Archetypes rather than dynamic characters, then I see where the issue lies. Alignments are more like indication of how the character carries itself most of the time, but they are not static. Over the day, the alignment of a character is probably shifting lightly, with it changing considerably more during specific situations that the character experiences.
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Post by Lady Frost on Oct 22, 2019 20:03:15 GMT -5
*Slowly realizing that the once kind and noble warrior who he called friend could no longer be redeemed, the paladin reaches the fateful conclusion:* "Only a Blackguard deals in absolutes *He draws the Holy Avenger. The blade glowing in golden light, keeping darkness away*" heh  To be frank though, if some players are playing ALIGNMENT Archetypes rather than dynamic characters, then I see where the issue lies. Alignments are more like indication of how the character carries itself most of the time, but they are not static. Over the day, the alignment of a character is probably shifting lightly, with it changing considerably more during specific situations that the character experiences. Exactly. Characters and personalities should determine alignments, not the other way around. |
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Post by Animayhem on Oct 23, 2019 21:28:24 GMT -5
Most people unfortunately assume that alignment shift means good to evil or evil to good. Not the case at all. I have more fun with the Lawful and Chaotic aspects of my characters alignments than I do with the good/evil parts. The characters in my opinion who have it the hardest are the True Neutrals. It is if they really cannot be they have to go more to one side or another. Yes I realize alignment is essentially ooc anyway.
In one of the first dm plots Marister was involved in his alignment was shifted to which I disagreed as I felt I acted according to my character.
However dm overruled so I went with it eventually as it is only a game, I got some points back and am more back to where I should be.
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Post by hellscream123 on Oct 23, 2019 21:51:12 GMT -5
Alignment is not ooc. It is a tangible facet of your characters soul and a reflection of who they are and the actions they undertake. Actions in turn shift one's self to and fro across the spectrum depending on what you allow, stop, take action with and stay away from. Alongside your reasons.
Acting in character does not always mean acting as the purist of their alignment but acting within the alignment itself dependant on the situation. If the action in turn shifts you. You still acted in character, the world mearly responded in kind. As the world of fearun in fact have difined blacks, whites and Greys for actions. As well as law chaos and balance.
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Post by malclave on Oct 23, 2019 21:56:49 GMT -5
Most people unfortunately assume that alignment shift means good to evil or evil to good. Not the case at all. I have more fun with the Lawful and Chaotic aspects of my characters alignments than I do with the good/evil parts. The characters in my opinion who have it the hardest are the True Neutrals. It is if they really cannot be they have to go more to one side or another. Yes I realize alignment is essentially ooc anyway.
In one of the first dm plots Marister was involved in his alignment was shifted to which I disagreed as I felt I acted according to my character.
However dm overruled so I went with it eventually as it is only a game, I got some points back and am more back to where I should be.
True Neutrals can be tricky. I still remember one of the alignment debates that kept popping up on an email group I was in back in the days of 2E. This one was about how a druid should react to finding a wounded animal. Almost everyone said that the druid should nurse the animal back to health, though there was some disagreement about what to do with it then. My take was that it depended on the situation, especially how the animal was hurt. I argued that in many cases the correct thing to do would be to just move on, though if it was suffering a minor infraction like putting it out of its misery was forgivable. That didn't go over too well.  |
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Post by DM Maleficent's Kiss on Oct 24, 2019 9:13:14 GMT -5
The characters in my opinion who have it the hardest are the True Neutrals. It is if they really cannot be they have to go more to one side or another. Yes I realize alignment is essentially ooc anyway. In one of the first dm plots Marister was involved in his alignment was shifted to which I disagreed as I felt I acted according to my character.
However dm overruled so I went with it eventually as it is only a game, I got some points back and am more back to where I should be. True Neutrals can be tricky. I still remember one of the alignment debates that kept popping up on an email group I was in back in the days of 2E. This one was about how a druid should react to finding a wounded animal. Almost everyone said that the druid should nurse the animal back to health, though there was some disagreement about what to do with it then. My take was that it depended on the situation, especially how the animal was hurt. I argued that in many cases the correct thing to do would be to just move on, though if it was suffering a minor infraction like putting it out of its misery was forgivable. That didn't go over too well. If it's a deer then for sure, the population of those things is out of control. |
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Post by Animayhem on Oct 24, 2019 9:54:28 GMT -5
Alignment is not ooc. It is a tangible facet of your characters soul and a reflection of who they are and the actions they undertake. Actions in turn shift one's self to and fro across the spectrum depending on what you allow, stop, take action with and stay away from. Alongside your reasons. Acting in character does not always mean acting as the purist of their alignment but acting within the alignment itself dependant on the situation. If the action in turn shifts you. You still acted in character, the world mearly responded in kind. As the world of fearun in fact have difined blacks, whites and Greys for actions. As well as law chaos and balance. Yes but the way of shifts is not usually considered. If anything I felt my action in regards to the one rp was more of good aligned than evil. Had it been that way I would not have been as upset. it seems there is a rush to reward evil to Neutral characters rather than good. |
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Post by malclave on Oct 24, 2019 10:22:16 GMT -5
True Neutrals can be tricky. I still remember one of the alignment debates that kept popping up on an email group I was in back in the days of 2E. This one was about how a druid should react to finding a wounded animal. Almost everyone said that the druid should nurse the animal back to health, though there was some disagreement about what to do with it then. My take was that it depended on the situation, especially how the animal was hurt. I argued that in many cases the correct thing to do would be to just move on, though if it was suffering a minor infraction like putting it out of its misery was forgivable. That didn't go over too well. If it's a deer then for sure, the population of those things is out of control. The druid/mage I was playing at the time had an affinity for wolves, and was technically the alpha of the local pack. If he came across a wounded deer, he'd gather the pack like any good wolf would do. No, the example that people really didn't like was more along the lines of "you find a baby bird that fell out of its nest" . |
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Post by hellscream123 on Oct 24, 2019 11:14:02 GMT -5
Alignment is not ooc. It is a tangible facet of your characters soul and a reflection of who they are and the actions they undertake. Actions in turn shift one's self to and fro across the spectrum depending on what you allow, stop, take action with and stay away from. Alongside your reasons. Acting in character does not always mean acting as the purist of their alignment but acting within the alignment itself dependant on the situation. If the action in turn shifts you. You still acted in character, the world mearly responded in kind. As the world of fearun in fact have difined blacks, whites and Greys for actions. As well as law chaos and balance. Yes but the way of shifts is not usually considered. If anything I felt my action in regards to the one rp was more of good aligned than evil. Had it been that way I would not have been as upset. it seems there is a rush to reward evil to Neutral characters rather than good. Alignment shift is not designed as a reward. It's designed as a result of the world at a greater scale than personal, reacting to the action you decide. Yes it is "easier" to do evil, this is on purpose as the stride towards good and purity is hard for dramatic purpose and tention. Evil is described as all corrupting and deeply rooting. Good is ti rise above such and act despite it. Law and chaos are similar. Chaos reads easier as keeping to ethos requirements causes codification and questions as to the broader scope of said ethos. However to provide an actual useful point. The world's reactions are up to the DM's to decide. They are stand ins for the gods divine, fate and the cosmos. If what we do causes good, evil, law, chaos. Within the grand design. That is their call to make more than it is ours.(in my opinion of the point of having a DM be in control of such things as per the design theoryod the server) |
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Post by Southpaw on Oct 24, 2019 16:11:08 GMT -5
Alignment is a character’s outlook, not an accumulated value like karma for what they do. It is internal, not the reaction of anything external.The character’s outlook is the auspice of the player alone, no one else, as determining it IS role play, and each person role plays their own character(s), DM’s included. If a person is clearly role playing a different alignment to the effect of a mechanical advantage, like claiming neutrality so PFE won’t work against a “mercenary who works for good or evil employers without caring what the job is (and happily assassinating a group of LG pacifist nuns on a pilgrimage so long as the pay is right in “total indifference to the nature of the job or employer”),” that’s a different matter. But either way, even when alignment is shifted, it’s meant to be discussed between DM and player, a DM is never supposed to ask you for your character sheet, erase your alignment, write in a new one, and hand it back without a word, expecting you to accept that.
If the gods respond to the moral or ethical nature of an action, I think it would be great for a DM to run an actual NPC or do a scene based on the cosmos responding. The first DM plot I was ever in on FRC was based in exactly that, and it was great. But that was role play of the environment, not a wordless adjustment of my own character’s outlook without even checking in with me.
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Post by hellscream123 on Oct 24, 2019 17:08:09 GMT -5
Alignment is a character’s outlook, not an accumulated value like karma for what they do. It is internal, not the reaction of anything external.The character’s outlook is the auspice of the player alone, no one else, as determining it IS role play, and each person role plays their own character(s), DM’s included. If a person is clearly role playing a different alignment to the effect of a mechanical advantage, like claiming neutrality so PFE won’t work against a “mercenary who works for good or evil employers without caring what the job is (and happily assassinating a group of LG pacifist nuns on a pilgrimage so long as the pay is right in “total indifference to the nature of the job or employer”),” that’s a different matter. But either way, even when alignment is shifted, it’s meant to be discussed between DM and player, a DM is never supposed to ask you for your character sheet, erase your alignment, write in a new one, and hand it back without a word, expecting you to accept that. If the gods respond to the moral or ethical nature of an action, I think it would be great for a DM to run an actual NPC or do a scene based on the cosmos responding. The first DM plot I was ever in on FRC was based in exactly that, and it was great. But that was role play of the environment, not a wordless adjustment of my own character’s outlook without even checking in with me. Now this is a fairly logical extreame of my statement of purview. However I agree that no DM should not make -something- of this adjustment, but that it is within their job point and structure for them to alter it when befitting our characters actions. Though I disagree with outlook, if it wasn't a codified part of the realms that's heavily described and enforced as such by the gods (this is specifically a setting note for fearun, not a greater note for alignment's use in D&D and I should've prefaced that earlier) It is not solely one's belief upon the world but the world's belief upon them likewise. To use the mercenary they can freely say they're not evil. But by indifferently accepting evil they're corrupted by it a reflection of it's growth within the world. That's part of the game of souls, faith and godly power in the realms. also if it wasn't karmic and more a matter of outlook, Paladin's wouldn't fall and Clerics wouldn't have alignment locks on faith. "in my opinion the jedi are evil" sure, but in a world with black and whites codifying everything, that statement doesn't stop one being evil by actions. (ignoring player population on that comment and keeping purely to the concepts of the setting in regards to these classes and alignment) No DM should say nothing to you or make nothing of alignment change. But it should be in their purview as well as our own to shift alignment in response to what we elect to do. |
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Post by Southpaw on Oct 24, 2019 17:46:17 GMT -5
To Hellscream’s post:
I largely agree with most of what you’ve said, my intent is to kind of specify some nuance, you might say. But what I mean by “outlook” is not a matter of whether a character sees themself as good, evil, lawful, or chaotic as if they were the judge of souls. I mean “outlook” as in which of the nine alignment descriptions fits how they see things. A character may fit the LE description, for instance, and believe they are “good” because they do their evil things “for the greater good.” What I meant in the relationship between actions and outlook is that the simple fact a character takes an action doesn’t mean their outlook has changed to match a different alignment. You can have a good character carrying around evil karma because of an action and the gods frowning accordingly. They can have some atonement ahead of them, but it doesn’t mean they stopped caring what’s right.
So far as paladins and clerics falling, they can lose powers for an action without changing alignment, because paladin in particular says, “one evil deed and you lose powers.” You don’t have to shift alignment, one deed is enough for loss of powers. That’s a specific class feature, not an indication alignment itself shifts around easily.
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Post by hellscream123 on Oct 24, 2019 18:19:14 GMT -5
fair, but now to note how the alignment system works in the context of NWN, It is a sliding bar of points, if DM's want to reasonably show any actions adjustment of said viewpoint is by adding points to said bar, Various quotas decide where in the point bar you need to be to be. Good, evil, Lawful, Chaotic, Nuetral. and should be within their purview within a good moment and cosigned understanding, adjust said bar to the actions we take, as after enough actions a character -should- start reconsidering their view as actions and effect shape it.
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Post by Southpaw on Oct 24, 2019 18:59:32 GMT -5
fair, but now to note how the alignment system works in the context of NWN, It is a sliding bar of points, if DM's want to reasonably show any actions adjustment of said viewpoint is by adding points to said bar, Various quotas decide where in the point bar you need to be to be. Good, evil, Lawful, Chaotic, Nuetral. and should be within their purview within a good moment and cosigned understanding, adjust said bar to the actions we take, as after enough actions a character -should- start reconsidering their view as actions and effect shape it. Yes. I would agree that the DM's should be involved in the oversight of alignment role play. But the fact it's a points system doesn't create an obligation for anyone to use the system the same way you do XP or gold and so on, just handing out points in response when someone does something without thought or discussion with the player. There is no reason a DM can't initiate a discussion with a player about their alignment role play, ask some questions to get all the relevant facts, hear out the player's explanation as to how their character's actions relate to their alignment, discuss the matter to what ever extent is due, and then make a decision to give alignment points or not *after* all this has been done, rather than just shifting it and hoping the player will live with it. Just because the point system is there doesn't mean activating it must be the first thing someone does, and in those very rare moments someone has asked me how my character's actions related to alignment, it's been a fun discussion to have. So to me it's about the full picture of how it's done. |
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Post by hellscream123 on Oct 24, 2019 19:08:40 GMT -5
Agree. this tedtalk brought to you from the aligngment spectrum, not ooc, in fact it's the biggest IC of them all
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Post by DOT on Oct 24, 2019 19:15:17 GMT -5
Is it ok if we do pretend its our first time most of time? or is that also a Nono? I kind of prefer the former
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Post by hellscream123 on Oct 24, 2019 20:21:01 GMT -5
Is it ok if we do pretend its our first time most of time? or is that also a Nono? I kind of prefer the former first time with what Tal? please reframe the query in more detail |
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Post by DOT on Oct 24, 2019 21:46:50 GMT -5
Like rp wise for me its usually sooooo boring to be the guide or the expert on a location, there's something more fun about "reexperiencing" the new new with other players or characters that are having their first time. It seem less meta that way. Rpwise wise it wouldn't really make sense for your character to not know the place even though they already been there before... although just had a light bulb mid post. for characters with the memory capacity of goldfish, its a win win. Im going to have fun with this one  |
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Post by hellscream123 on Oct 24, 2019 22:43:51 GMT -5
oh, in that instance I agree. Do your best to know little of a place and everyone gets to have making a show of learning the ins and outs, assuming you're not diliberately returning in glorious vengence
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Post by Animayhem on Oct 25, 2019 12:30:10 GMT -5
fair, but now to note how the alignment system works in the context of NWN, It is a sliding bar of points, if DM's want to reasonably show any actions adjustment of said viewpoint is by adding points to said bar, Various quotas decide where in the point bar you need to be to be. Good, evil, Lawful, Chaotic, Nuetral. and should be within their purview within a good moment and cosigned understanding, adjust said bar to the actions we take, as after enough actions a character -should- start reconsidering their view as actions and effect shape it. Yes but the point is the look at the act not the overall picture. This is common with neutral characters. Was what Marister do an evil act? If you just look at the action yes however the rp behind the action was totally ignored.
The shift in alignment was given as if he was a good aligned character. The shift should not have gone as far as it did.
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Post by nemusator on Oct 31, 2019 2:26:42 GMT -5
I used to do what Tal is doing. Every time a first time. Now I'm simply revisiting a place. Though it wouldn't make sense to simply charge at everything as you know exactly what are you going to encounter. In reality, adventurers with such tactics would quickly deprive Cormyr of their services... Also there are dungeons which scramble trap location, where enemies may wary depending of the number of allies... And some places are just so hard, that you will want to apply different approach/tactic every time and you will walk like on eggshells every time you visit those...
Also, completely agree with DMMK's attitude.
In the spirit of the conversation, maybe more appropriate for rotflmao thread, but these actually happened!
1. "Hey! Who has a true seeing potion so we can spot hidden door there!?"
2. "Oh no! I'm petrified! Please someone use a stone to flesh scroll on me, I will pay you back as soon as we visit a city, I will find a bank and swap coins then pay you back! Please!"
3. *random party invitation* (Don't know where person is, why is he inviting me, what's it about, etc.)
*rejected*
*random party invitation*
*rejected*
*polite tell sent, inquiring/clarifying*
"Oh, I was just about to turn in a quest item! So I thought of inviting you!*
"What kind of name is that? Are you French?"
This one is a bit caricatured:
"Alright... Now let's enter that room... Mage in there always farts when sees enemies... Then her guards will burp, it is their natural reaction to adventurers... Then the boss poops his pants, and if I do this, he will dispel his toilet paper, then we get to do this and win! Lets go! Fun!"
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Andros
Old School
I only know that I know nothing
Posts: 440
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Post by Andros on Nov 17, 2019 9:55:05 GMT -5
What I do is simply assume monsters don't just live in one single cave, it's an engine limitation if there was truly a single orc cave near greatgaunt it would be very easy for the town to mount the effort to clear them out with adventurers/militia. I imagine the orcs (and other monsters) occupying a region with several cave systems which is represented in game by the one cave we get.
So my chraracter might have fought the local orcs and be knowledgable on the type of tactics and overall strength and danger they pose while not knowing the actual cave we are exploring. So I can pretend to not know what exactly we'll be facing while having an idea of what is good to bring to fight this particular foe.
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Post by simo2003 on Nov 26, 2019 20:01:49 GMT -5
What I do is simply assume monsters don't just live in one single cave, it's an engine limitation if there was truly a single orc cave near greatgaunt it would be very easy for the town to mount the effort to clear them out with adventurers/militia. I imagine the orcs (and other monsters) occupying a region with several cave systems which is represented in game by the one cave we get. So my chraracter might have fought the local orcs and be knowledgable on the type of tactics and overall strength and danger they pose while not knowing the actual cave we are exploring. So I can pretend to not know what exactly we'll be facing while having an idea of what is good to bring to fight this particular foe. This is how I approach it as well, although I will also roleplay a dungeon as the 'first time'. |
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Post by Xzanos on Dec 31, 2019 9:19:03 GMT -5
I usually don't weigh in on things like this, but here goes. Some of this is just me playing Devil's Advocate, so take it as you will. This server, while heavy RP oriented is lacking in the whole Risk/Reward balance to that end. Why should I spend two weeks IC 99% of the time for one, maybe two, measly 100 points of DM xp when I could log in, load up on supplies, and power through dungeons till I log out? Why should I bother fleshing out my character when ultimately it doesn't matter how much backstory I write, or how many gaps I leave for DM's to fill in or take and run with? What's the point in making a character who's sole purpose is RP, when I'm going to end up spending a majority of my time alone in a town waiting for people to stroll by and not be in their usual rush to go murder the equivalence of the population of NYC in monsters and take their stuff? This has been an issue that I've seen on a few servers. Part of it stems from trying to turn an Action-RPG into a RP based RPG with action. Let's face it. The entire design of NWN wasn't really "Hey lets make a computer game that's PnP with 3d models and visuals!" it was "Hey, lets make a dungeon crawler that's based off the rules and settings of DnD's Forgotten Realms!" The modding community, DM's, Admin, and even we players do our best, but it still boils down to how the base game is coded and designed. That said, I've seen a few things about this server that, had I not been a many year veteran before I joined this server, I wouldn't have stayed more than a few hours before I said "Screw this. Punching myself in the crotch would be more productive and enjoyable." Ultimately, the only characters I can judge are my own. I'll never tell someone else how they should RP their character. It's -their- character after all. Not only that, but there are likely players with all levels of RP experience. From brand new to those of us who've been around since the original NWN was a new release. Trying to hold someone with only a few hours, days, weeks, or even months of RP under their belt to someone who's been around since dirt was invented is just simply a bad idea and will turn new people off of the server. Bitching at someone over how they're RPing their character will likely do the same. To me, the beauty of RPing is that it's a personal creative outlet of nearly limitless possibilities. It can range anywhere from truely enjoyable and fun, to just plain boring, to mind-bogglingly frustrating and angering. You never know what's around the next corner or if the DM is about to drop a dragon on your head or a pile of gold (Odds are it's a dragon though...). And while yes, being focused on RP is the keystone to this server, remember that this -is- a game, and is meant to be enjoyable. My real life is far too stressful for me to go from there, to what I intend as my relaxation and escape, only to have it be just as stressful. Sorry for any rambling and ranting. But it's just my two copper. While I do agree with a lot of this post, I think that the risk/reward system being unbalanced all depends on what you define as a reward. I am new to this server and to PW in general. When I first joined seeing how slow the XP was it made me frustrated and indeed I wanted to find ways to marry go round and farm as much XP as possible. But the more and more I tried to stay IC and find meaningfull RP objectives for my character the more actual fun I was having. Just the interactions between players can sometimes be more rewarding than any drop. If the only reward for you is XP, gold or items then of course the game is going to seem unbalanced. I am doing my best to realize that it is the road and not the end game concept for my character in which I should find my enjoyment.
The more we all try to RP and build upon one anothers RP the better I feel the server will be.
The more interaction between players RP objectives and server wide RP plots the better.
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