Eldok
Proven Member
Atonement is the way
Posts: 217 
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Post by Eldok on Feb 12, 2019 15:30:41 GMT -5
Perhaps it is me, but I have the feeling there isn’t any good PrC avalaible for paladins to take.
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Post by tingly on Feb 12, 2019 15:48:06 GMT -5
One might say that paladin is itself the 'prestigious class'! It has its roots in being 'Fighter with more stuff', which you could only take if you rolled high enough stats. While much of that has changed and been balanced, it still informs a lot of how the class is depicted.
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Post by Razgriz on Feb 12, 2019 15:56:38 GMT -5
I took Weapon master for my paladin Holance. Even though it is not usually considered as a traditional choice, I did so because I wanted to play and emulate the honorable members of the Kings Guard present in the Song of Ice and Fire novels. Mostly Ser Arthur Dayne and Ser Baristan Selmy for that matter. Thanfully, his paladin order (Golden Lion) allowed the class combination.
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Eldok
Proven Member
Atonement is the way
Posts: 217
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Post by Eldok on Feb 12, 2019 16:37:22 GMT -5
I took Weapon master for my paladin Holance. Even though it is not usually considered as a traditional choice, I did so because I wanted to play and emulate the honorable members of the Kings Guard present in the Song of Ice and Fire novels. Mostly Ser Arthur Dayne and Ser Baristan Selmy for that matter. Thanfully, his paladin order (Golden Lion) allowed the class combination. Aye, there is that, but still it requires a lot of feats and fighter levels. It would be nice to see the addition of the Divine Emissary which is an epic PrC from 3.0 if I believe I’m correct. I don’t know how much works it represents however |
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Post by dwarvenkoff on Feb 12, 2019 16:39:00 GMT -5
Make cleric your Prc, 10 pal 20 cleric.
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Post by asturonethoriusaline on Feb 12, 2019 18:03:45 GMT -5
Champion of Torm, Divine Champion is a wonderful Prc for Paladin. Paladin/ Cleric/Champ of Torm, is a AWESOME COMBO
OR Paladin/Ranger/Champ of Torm.
What more awesome then that, could you want?
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Eldok
Proven Member
Atonement is the way
Posts: 217
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Post by Eldok on Feb 12, 2019 18:07:01 GMT -5
Champion of Torm, Divine Champion is a wonderful Prc for Paladin. Paladin/ Cleric/Champ of Torm, is a AWESOME COMBO OR Paladin/Ranger/Champ of Torm. What more awesome then that, could you want? Champion of Torm doesn’t give much to a paladin to be honest with you. Compared to some other PrCs, it is a very weak one. |
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Post by MTGPackFoils on Feb 12, 2019 18:37:14 GMT -5
One problem I always had with PrCs in NWN is that they didn’t increase spellcasting for classes like Paladin. I would ‘t take any of them honestly and maybe add a few levels of fighter to add combat feats. Now if I was going Cleric I would be 16/4 Cleric/Paladin without any PrC.
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Post by StabbingNirvana on Feb 12, 2019 18:52:45 GMT -5
Champ of Torm is basically an extension of the paladin class. It gives an additional point to all saving throws which stacks up great with Divine Grace. Smite Evil keeps getting stronger. Lay on Hands keeps getting stronger. You get a bonus feat every other level. Divine Wrath stacks with Divine Might which stacks with Divine Favor...
It's basically the perfect progression for a paladin to eventually take CoT after hitting 20 paladin. Then if possible taking a couple cleric if you're into that sort of thing.
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Post by asturonethoriusaline on Feb 12, 2019 19:43:18 GMT -5
Champ of Torm is basically an extension of the paladin class. It gives an additional point to all saving throws which stacks up great with Divine Grace. Smite Evil keeps getting stronger. Lay on Hands keeps getting stronger. You get a bonus feat every other level. Divine Wrath stacks with Divine Might which stacks with Divine Favor... It's basically the perfect progression for a paladin to eventually take CoT after hitting 20 paladin. Then if possible taking a couple cleric if you're into that sort of thing. This ^^^^^! You could take 13 levels of Paladin/13 levels of fighter to get what you get with 10 levels of CoT. You get BAB +1 every level. You get awesome bonuses to ALL your saving throws. You get EXTENSION of Lay on Hands, Divine Grace, Smite Evil, with Sacred Defense, you get 10 HP per level. YOU GET A FEAT SLOT EVERY OTHER LEVEL. The fighter doesnt get sacred defense, extension of Divine Grace, Smite Evil, big bonuses to saving throws. The Paladin does not get a feat every other level. Its like they took the parts of Paladin and Fighter and SPLICED them together into ONE CLASS. That makes it so that have to get at least 10 levels each of both Paladin, and Fighter for 20 levels, to get what get with 10 levels of Champion of Torm. Save those levels, take right feats, use Cleric Spells for BUFF, Use Ranger Two Weapon Fighting, Improved Two Weapon Fighting, and build the build right and your looking at being a BAD ASS. You take away Champ of Torm, and you have to take 10+ levels of Paladin, 10 + Levels of Cleric, 10+ Levels of Fighter, and your still weaker then 10 levels of Paladin, 10 levels of Cleric, 10 levels of Champ of Torm. Anybody who says that Champ of Torm is not good for a Paladin, does not know what they are talking about are not logical as Spock would say. |
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Post by lucid on Feb 12, 2019 20:05:37 GMT -5
Paladin/Blackguard
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Post by stryker on Feb 20, 2019 0:41:59 GMT -5
one thing that bothers me so much about the paladin scene is that one cant use two handed weaponson a horse. in NWN sword and board is almost always superior to two handed and two weapon fighting. you essentially get 6 ac out of it with a plus 3 tower shield. Combine that with a scimitar's superior critical range becoming at times 3 with weapon master and suddenly two handed weapon master builds that are not scythe users seem pointless.
Why does this bother me? because I want to make a paladin/weaponmaster of Torm that uses a greatsword, because the order that allows any oen class with paladin is a Torm order, whom happens to be my favourite deity of all DnD, and greatswords is Torm's favourite weapon. So you know what? I would gladly be slightly suboptimal and wield a greatsword over scimitar and shield. Except that one cool thing paladins get are horses! and now I can't use the bloody horse with my deity's favoured weapon. So im forced to go sword and board if i want to fight on the horse. Which of course puts me back to square one at the scimitar and shield weaponmaster being so much more superior than the greatsword.
*EDIT*
also, in PnP DnD, it is a fairly reasonly lowish lvl DC to rise your horse using your legs to guide it with no hands required. real life lvl 1 to 3 characters do it all the time.
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Post by simo2003 on Feb 20, 2019 3:48:39 GMT -5
... Who would actually fight with a greatsword on horseback?
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Post by stryker on Feb 20, 2019 6:31:41 GMT -5
... Who would actually fight with a greatsword on horseback? Well first of, it is a fantasy game with people with super strength and I assure you, reach is fantastic while on a horse. At the end of the day. From a mechanics/build perspective. You are going to be only using one type of melee weapon with your feats and all so the lines of suitable weapon get blurred. Now who uses a warhammer/dagger/shortsword/lighthammer/kama/etc from horseback? But for some mundane real history: www.quora.com/How-would-two-handed-weapons-be-used-from-horsebackwww.the-ninth-age.com/index.php?thread/4466-great-weapons-two-handed-weapons-on-horseback/EDIT Or maybe rhe real answer to who fights with a greatsword on horseback is a weaponmaster who literally treats his blade like an extension to his body. |
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tirelesstracker
Proven Member
Whenever you sacrifice a clue, put a +1/+1 counter on Tireless Tracker.
Posts: 189
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Post by tirelesstracker on Feb 20, 2019 7:02:22 GMT -5
Don't worry Styker, there are people here who think full plate keeps you from swimming, running, and having a wide range of movement too. I'm unsurprised ther eis doubt of two-handers on horses.
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Post by Southpaw on Feb 20, 2019 7:16:28 GMT -5
Full plate doesn't keep you from running or having a wide range of motion, except some limitation raising your arms over your head. I've worn it, and used to do museum presentations on it. Jousting armor was very heavy and restrictive, but that's made to stop an attack where you know exactly what your opponent is going to try to do to you. Combat armor was quite different. There was a knight who jumped into the air and did a triple flip wearing it.
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Post by hellscream123 on Feb 20, 2019 7:16:55 GMT -5
The DMs decided that a range of weapons yonks ago, (talking dawn of the server time) "made no sense to be used on horseback" i assume both ICly and OOCly frc.proboards.com/thread/29402/horse-implementationThe thread in reference On the note of armor and weaponary however. D&D in general has NEVER emulated historical martial matters effectively or truthfully without deliberate overhauls to the majority of it's systems. |
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Post by stryker on Feb 20, 2019 18:50:55 GMT -5
Don't worry Styker, there are people here who think full plate keeps you from swimming, running, and having a wide range of movement too. I'm unsurprised ther eis doubt of two-handers on horses. I just want to ride my paladin horse and wield a greatsword just like my pateon deity! (Who wields a greatsword while riding a gold dragon) |
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Post by StabbingNirvana on Feb 20, 2019 19:45:36 GMT -5
Where there is a will there is a way, young Stryker. All you have to do is believe.....
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abby
Old School
Posts: 323
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Post by abby on Feb 20, 2019 20:03:41 GMT -5
one thing that bothers me so much about the paladin scene is that one cant use two handed weaponson a horse. in NWN sword and board is almost always superior to two handed and two weapon fighting. you essentially get 6 ac out of it with a plus 3 tower shield. Combine that with a scimitar's superior critical range becoming at times 3 with weapon master and suddenly two handed weapon master builds that are not scythe users seem pointless. Whoa, this has not been my experience at all. My main for years was a great sword (nodachi) wielding strength-based character and he utterly mopped the floor with sword and board PCs in every single one on one fight I ever had with a like level enemy. Even when they out leveled him by quite a bit. That +6 AC can be outdistanced by AB pretty easily and all it takes is one successful knockdown and its good-night Suzy in most cases. If you work on maxing strength, the AB and level of damage a 2-handed strength based weapon master can do is insane. That said, and I know this is an awful derail, please don't hate me... sword and board SHOULD be about equal to large, two handed weapons, as that's exactly what we find in real life. The advantage in range and attack power of a two-hander counterbalances the incredible defensive edge a shield provides. However one of the tropes I hate most about D&D, even more than the BS katana crap, has got to be duel-wielding. This crap simply is not effective compared to those mentioned above, but in D&D land, trumps either in my experience. The fact is, duel wielding doesn't give you enough reach or defense to counter the 2 hander, and it doesn't give you enough offense to overcome the defensive advantage of sword and board. Its like taking a little of each, but leaving off the best of both. There's a reason no one really did it in battle. Unarmored duels after the rapier? Sure... but not in armored combat on the battlefield. Anyone who plays LARP probably thinks I'm wrong, but anyone whose ever fought HEMA full contact with armor and fully weighted weapons knows I'm right. You're not going to riposte a massive sword/polearm with duel wielded weapons, and the guy with the shield is going to run right over you and stab your crotch without even giving a thought to defense. |
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Post by hellscream123 on Feb 20, 2019 20:06:48 GMT -5
Man the train tracks are slippery this month.
But yes on the note of X is weak. FRC isn't "hardcore" by that i say you do not need to pick out the "best" build available and will run just fine with "mod tier" builds in the greater sense of the game meta.
I say this as a dual weilding melee Wizard who always has fun. Glory to my impossible fighting.
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Post by stryker on Feb 20, 2019 20:24:16 GMT -5
one thing that bothers me so much about the paladin scene is that one cant use two handed weaponson a horse. in NWN sword and board is almost always superior to two handed and two weapon fighting. you essentially get 6 ac out of it with a plus 3 tower shield. Combine that with a scimitar's superior critical range becoming at times 3 with weapon master and suddenly two handed weapon master builds that are not scythe users seem pointless. Whoa, this has not been my experience at all. My main for years was a great sword (nodachi) wielding strength-based character and he utterly mopped the floor with sword and board PCs in every single one on one fight I ever had with a like level enemy. Even when they out leveled him by quite a bit. That +6 AC can be outdistanced by AB pretty easily and all it takes is one successful knockdown and its good-night Suzy in most cases. If you work on maxing strength, the AB and level of damage a 2-handed strength based weapon master can do is insane. That said, and I know this is an awful derail, please don't hate me... sword and board SHOULD be about equal to large, two handed weapons, as that's exactly what we find in real life. The advantage in range and attack power of a two-hander counterbalances the incredible defensive edge a shield provides. However one of the tropes I hate most about D&D, even more than the BS katana crap, has got to be duel-wielding. This crap simply is not effective compared to those mentioned above, but in D&D land, trumps either in my experience. The fact is, duel wielding doesn't give you enough reach or defense to counter the 2 hander, and it doesn't give you enough offense to overcome the defensive advantage of sword and board. Its like taking a little of each, but leaving off the best of both. There's a reason no one really did it in battle. Unarmored duels after the rapier? Sure... but not in armored combat on the battlefield. Anyone who plays LARP probably thinks I'm wrong, but anyone whose ever fought HEMA full contact with armor and fully weighted weapons knows I'm right. You're not going to riposte a massive sword/polearm with duel wielded weapons, and the guy with the shield is going to run you over and stab your crotch.
I will admit I dont know how ac scales too well on this server. but I was part of an intense RP server that got weird got because of how the meta got broken down to such a science that when you did anything out of the meta, you realized you were robbing yourself essentially 12 to 22 ac. it became too stale for me Thats why im loving all the multiclass restrictions, etc. Paladin is powerful because it can cast holy avenger eventually (especialy on a lower lvl magic server) but is limited to how he can multiclass. UMD isnt this almight skill because not everyone and their brother is going to necessarily craft wands for you.
I don't know if those sword and board people were poorly built or if its just this server or what. But there are a lot of factors that go into it. For example, if you dont tumble dump your build (thats 6 ac at lvl 30 and 8 ac at lvl 40) and have improved combat expertise. To be honest, I am not sure even I even want to know. I came to realize I lost a certain degree of awe and wonder to DnD when I started to know too much. Some people may want to stop reading right here.
That being said. That sword and board user may have had 20 less discipline and 18 less ac than he was suppose to. Very important factors (if built right, you should be able essentially be immune to knockdowns at epic lvls. Especially since its a lower magic item world. The key to matching a two hander as a sword and shield build is not actaully make a super tank. But to make a high strenght build (on top of grabbing every source of ac and ab you possible can) just like they are so their ab is no better than yours, but your ac will be 6 higher for your shield. So they essentially trade some extra damage (half your strength mod and an extra 1d6 for greatsword) for 6 less ac and a smaller crit range (scimitar). Lets say you have a str mod of 20 somehow, the greatsword nets you an extra 13.5 damage average per hit. That gets times by three on a crit (so like an extra 38 damage with a greatsword vs a scimitar with damge strmod and feats with confirmed crit), but if you had a scimitar, you would criting much more often AND have 6 more ac which can stop the crit from confirming to begin with. Honestly, all this gets thrown out the window once you start to factor in truestrike potions in a lower magic item world. If any str high crit build (one handed or two handed) knocks you down, you are in for a world of hurt.
ideal builds aside... I just want to ride a horse with my paladin who uses his favoured weapon of Torm lol
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abby
Old School
Posts: 323
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Post by abby on Feb 21, 2019 2:41:37 GMT -5
Whoa, this has not been my experience at all. My main for years was a great sword (nodachi) wielding strength-based character and he utterly mopped the floor with sword and board PCs in every single one on one fight I ever had with a like level enemy. Even when they out leveled him by quite a bit. That +6 AC can be outdistanced by AB pretty easily and all it takes is one successful knockdown and its good-night Suzy in most cases. If you work on maxing strength, the AB and level of damage a 2-handed strength based weapon master can do is insane. That said, and I know this is an awful derail, please don't hate me... sword and board SHOULD be about equal to large, two handed weapons, as that's exactly what we find in real life. The advantage in range and attack power of a two-hander counterbalances the incredible defensive edge a shield provides. However one of the tropes I hate most about D&D, even more than the BS katana crap, has got to be duel-wielding. This crap simply is not effective compared to those mentioned above, but in D&D land, trumps either in my experience. The fact is, duel wielding doesn't give you enough reach or defense to counter the 2 hander, and it doesn't give you enough offense to overcome the defensive advantage of sword and board. Its like taking a little of each, but leaving off the best of both. There's a reason no one really did it in battle. Unarmored duels after the rapier? Sure... but not in armored combat on the battlefield. Anyone who plays LARP probably thinks I'm wrong, but anyone whose ever fought HEMA full contact with armor and fully weighted weapons knows I'm right. You're not going to riposte a massive sword/polearm with duel wielded weapons, and the guy with the shield is going to run you over and stab your crotch. I will admit I dont know how ac scales too well on this server. but I was part of an intense RP server that got weird got because of how the meta got broken down to such a science that when you did anything out of the meta, you realized you were robbing yourself essentially 12 to 22 ac. it became too stale for me Thats why im loving all the multiclass restrictions, etc. Paladin is powerful because it can cast holy avenger eventually (especialy on a lower lvl magic server) but is limited to how he can multiclass. UMD isnt this almight skill because not everyone and their brother is going to necessarily craft wands for you.
I don't know if those sword and board people were poorly built or if its just this server or what. But there are a lot of factors that go into it. For example, if you dont tumble dump your build (thats 6 ac at lvl 30 and 8 ac at lvl 40) and have improved combat expertise. To be honest, I am not sure even I even want to know. I came to realize I lost a certain degree of awe and wonder to DnD when I started to know too much. Some people may want to stop reading right here.
That being said. That sword and board user may have had 20 less discipline and 18 less ac than he was suppose to. Very important factors (if built right, you should be able essentially be immune to knockdowns at epic lvls. Especially since its a lower magic item world. The key to matching a two hander as a sword and shield build is not actaully make a super tank. But to make a high strenght build (on top of grabbing every source of ac and ab you possible can) just like they are so their ab is no better than yours, but your ac will be 6 higher for your shield. So they essentially trade some extra damage (half your strength mod and an extra 1d6 for greatsword) for 6 less ac and a smaller crit range (scimitar). Lets say you have a str mod of 20 somehow, the greatsword nets you an extra 13.5 damage average per hit. That gets times by three on a crit (so like an extra 38 damage with a greatsword vs a scimitar with damge strmod and feats with confirmed crit), but if you had a scimitar, you would criting much more often AND have 6 more ac which can stop the crit from confirming to begin with. Honestly, all this gets thrown out the window once you start to factor in truestrike potions in a lower magic item world. If any str high crit build (one handed or two handed) knocks you down, you are in for a world of hurt.
ideal builds aside... I just want to ride a horse with my paladin who uses his favoured weapon of Torm lol
Well maybe all the old sword and board people didn’t know how to build them right. But then again, Manshin wasn’t really built right either and he still did fine. You get a lot of extra AB as a weapon master he he crits constantly for 90+ damage. Throw in a few buffs and a haste potion plus a few other really nasty secret tricks I’ll reserve for when it matters and I never had too much trouble hitting any AC.... that said, back then there were really no epics and what few there weren’t built mathematically perfect. |
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Post by Dobian on Feb 21, 2019 9:48:47 GMT -5
My newest character is a paly/CoT/fighter. I have three different variations of the build and they are all solid. She is not a cleric in her background story so that would never be a part of her build, it's still about rp after all.
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