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Post by deadbeatbert on Jan 17, 2019 14:26:27 GMT -5
Hi all,
I'm sure this will be a good discussion over all, but I'm actually looking for a one on one private conversation first.
I generally find it pretty easy to tell when a guy is playing a girl and when a girl is playing a girl (and add a general age range of the player) but I've never really considered why this is or what the indicators are on a psychological level. I have a lowbie lady. she is a sword for hire and has an extroverted personality. The only real reason for wanting to play this character is that I have played dwarves and halflings, elves and humans, but never a woman. The end goal vision is this: If I can role play a woman convincingly maybe I can write about them in stories convincingly too.
I'm looking for a female player (who isn't my wife) to give me some neutral advice and information on how they role play their female character so that I can do the idea and character justice. I'll be adding my viewpoints before and after here to see how they line up and what changes I felt have been necessary to help other people too and then get involved in a discussion on it.
I do not want this to be taken as negatively judgmental to any males playing females, nor do I intend this as a flame that I can tell. I'm also not entertaining the idea of discussing erp from a female perspective. This is about thought processes, characteristics, traits, nuances and behavioural differences to men in general.
Thanks!
DBB
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Post by tingly on Jan 17, 2019 16:20:54 GMT -5
Like I said in that other thread, humans of your opposite gender are probably closer to you, yourself, than non-humans are.
Something that I've done, sometimes, as a DM (elsewhere) was to consider whether an NPC needed to be a gender that I'd initially assigned to them. Usually, the answer is 'no'; that character could be defined as a 'priest of [god name]' or 'the black market fence' and their gender wouldn't actually be a factor. Thus, if I felt like it were a good idea, I'd change the gender and nothing else about them.
Though, sometimes, yes; their character would be heavily based in the fact that they're a dad, or something society expects from them because of their gender. If you don't want to commit to doing something like that, a 'safe' option is probably a character archetype that really doesn't change with gender.
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Manshin
Old School
FRC2 Build Team
Posts: 706
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Post by Manshin on Jan 18, 2019 0:29:43 GMT -5
Welcome to the internet, where the men are men, the women are men, and the children are FBI agents.
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Post by deadbeatbert on Jan 18, 2019 10:05:37 GMT -5
Like I said in that other thread, humans of your opposite gender are probably closer to you, yourself, than non-humans are. Something that I've done, sometimes, as a DM (elsewhere) was to consider whether an NPC needed to be a gender that I'd initially assigned to them. Usually, the answer is 'no'; that character could be defined as a 'priest of [god name]' or 'the black market fence' and their gender wouldn't actually be a factor. Thus, if I felt like it were a good idea, I'd change the gender and nothing else about them. Though, sometimes, yes; their character would be heavily based in the fact that they're a dad, or something society expects from them because of their gender. If you don't want to commit to doing something like that, a 'safe' option is probably a character archetype that really doesn't change with gender. This is exactly my line of thinking. Yes, there are the little things, nuances, habits and sometimes a different use of emotion, but essentially we're all just human. That's what I have been doing with her so far. |
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Post by Southpaw on Jan 18, 2019 14:53:12 GMT -5
Hi all, I'm sure this will be a good discussion over all, but I'm actually looking for a one on one private conversation first. I generally find it pretty easy to tell when a guy is playing a girl and when a girl is playing a girl (and add a general age range of the player) but I've never really considered why this is or what the indicators are on a psychological level. I have a lowbie lady. she is a sword for hire and has an extroverted personality. The only real reason for wanting to play this character is that I have played dwarves and halflings, elves and humans, but never a woman. The end goal vision is this: If I can role play a woman convincingly maybe I can write about them in stories convincingly too. I'm looking for a female player (who isn't my wife) to give me some neutral advice and information on how they role play their female character so that I can do the idea and character justice. I'll be adding my viewpoints before and after here to see how they line up and what changes I felt have been necessary to help other people too and then get involved in a discussion on it. I do not want this to be taken as negatively judgmental to any males playing females, nor do I intend this as a flame that I can tell. I'm also not entertaining the idea of discussing erp from a female perspective. This is about thought processes, characteristics, traits, nuances and behavioural differences to men in general. Thanks! DBB I respect the fact you'd like to hear from people by PM first. But I also would like to discuss this subject, too. Could you give us a clear indication when you're ready to go to the open forum stage? |
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Post by deadbeatbert on Jan 19, 2019 22:22:26 GMT -5
Southpaw Hey mate. I'm talking with a few players about it privately and it it appears that in main my feelings on the subject are in the right place. Point to note, all of the women I am talking to are (so far) mothers. Please add, amend, give perspective and thoughts. Whether you're a woman yourself, play women regularly, have just started or have been considering it. The big sommon themes I have picked up on so far are: Be my usual roleplaying self. Don't treat anyone differently because of gender. People is people. Concentrate on the character's role you planned out for them and don't make allowances for their sex. Show how much you care, don't say it. (We all care, it's about how that concern/compassion/etc is displayed) Nurturing as a parent is no different, but how lessons are taught generally are. Example: teaching/learning through pain (That hurt, didn't it - don't do it again), versus protecting people from it (Don't touch that, it'll hurt.). Womanly vengeance is an unrelenting, stone cold mofo. Hell really does hath fury versus my usual dish served cold. This is perhaps the biggest difference I have seen in relation to how I go about my normal role play and probably relates to motherhood. Think before you speak, unless you hate someone, in which case enjoy. There are more, but I just want to get the ball rolling.
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Post by Animayhem on Jan 20, 2019 17:52:29 GMT -5
A good start would be maybe emulating an important woman in your life. Whether a relative or friend or maybe based off a character from a book. Then think what about the inspiration inspired you. If you were them in real life would you change any aspect of them?
In deciding in playing a male, I looked for real life influences as well as character's I read.
As with all my characters male or female I put a little of myself in them. This is fantasy yet there are somethings I will not agree to due to personal reasons.
I try and convey that in character in game.
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Manshin
Old School
FRC2 Build Team
Posts: 706
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Post by Manshin on Jan 20, 2019 18:36:23 GMT -5
I see no way to respond to this thread without getting in heaps of trouble. If Abby and Hypatia seem like women and Manshin seems like a man then I’ve got it all figured out.
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Post by Southpaw on Jan 20, 2019 19:09:44 GMT -5
Southpaw Hey mate. I'm talking with a few players about it privately and it it appears that in main my feelings on the subject are in the right place. Point to note, all of the women I am talking to are (so far) mothers. Please add, amend, give perspective and thoughts. Whether you're a woman yourself, play women regularly, have just started or have been considering it. The big sommon themes I have picked up on so far are: Be my usual roleplaying self. Don't treat anyone differently because of gender. People is people. Concentrate on the character's role you planned out for them and don't make allowances for their sex. Show how much you care, don't say it. (We all care, it's about how that concern/compassion/etc is displayed) Nurturing as a parent is no different, but how lessons are taught generally are. Example: teaching/learning through pain (That hurt, didn't it - don't do it again), versus protecting people from it (Don't touch that, it'll hurt.). Womanly vengeance is an unrelenting, stone cold mofo. Hell really does hath fury versus my usual dish served cold. This is perhaps the biggest difference I have seen in relation to how I go about my normal role play and probably relates to motherhood. Think before you speak, unless you hate someone, in which case enjoy. There are more, but I just want to get the ball rolling. I think some of the best advice I can give is to start by falling back on some good, old fashioned, sound advice for role playing and story writing in general. The first that comes to mind is, "know your character." If you wanted to play an elf, a halfling, a dragon, or anything else in the game, I'd hope you'd research the role you're about to portray. Applying that to women, I'd suggest studying up on women. Personally, this is something I've done. A lot. A REAL lot. In a lot of different ways. Sports, history in combat, psychology, historical roles in society and the family, politics, medical issues ... there are so many things you could read about. Then, take what you've learned, and imagine a character who incorporates or is inspired by what you know and falls within the parameters you've learned are plausible. So far as portraying the character, that's a matter of "putting yourself in the character's shoes" like any other character, and portraying or role playing her responses, just like any other character type. There are a few things I've encountered that are specific to role playing a female human, though, and I'll share those, too. For me, there was a process of getting over what I expected would be other people's perception of a man who is interested in taking a female character seriously enough to portray her as my own main character. It's been a while since I started, I'm kind of over that by now. But yes, there was a process. My characters are not a reflection of my real world personality, beliefs, or anything. Specifically, this includes my personal views on feminism, sexism, equality, or anything else like that, as well as what I think are society's views. The character has her own outlook on everything, including all these items, and not only are they not mine, but they're not necessarily politically correct or anti-politically correct, either. She has, truly, her own mind. I personally portray female warriors who have less physical strength than they could, and I make a role playing life out of making a less muscular character look as kick@$$ as I possibly can. So I'm not shy about letting her have less muscle power, because I know she can still rock at the front line of combat. I think those are some things to toss out there, and see what you come back with before continuing. |
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Post by lucid on Feb 12, 2019 11:10:52 GMT -5
Welcome to the internet, where the men are men, the women are men, and the children are FBI agents. If I'm not really a girl, how come dudes keep saying sexist crap to me? I'm also: a very aggressive and assertive redneck a mathematician a network engineer a mountain climber a hunter a dog enthusiast (though I do love my kitties too) a jeep owner a total failure at makeup a decade older than most of you, maybe two As such I may not be the one to ask how to be a girl. I mostly fail to meet men's expectations of what a real woman is. Luckily, I firmly believe they can shove their expectations up their lonely solitary pelvic orifice. |
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Post by Southpaw on Feb 12, 2019 11:36:21 GMT -5
Welcome to the internet, where the men are men, the women are men, and the children are FBI agents. If I'm not really a girl, how come dudes keep saying sexist crap to me? I'm also: a very aggressive and assertive redneck a mathematician a network engineer a mountain climber a hunter a dog enthusiast (though I do love my kitties too) a jeep owner a total failure at makeup a decade older than most of you, maybe two As such I may not be the one to ask how to be a girl. I mostly fail to meet men's expectations of what a real woman is. Luckily, I firmly believe they can shove their expectations up their lonely solitary pelvic orifice. So in other words, you're Quake.  |
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Post by lucid on Feb 12, 2019 12:08:44 GMT -5
So in other words, you're Quake. Quake has a Jeep? |
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Post by Southpaw on Feb 12, 2019 12:15:57 GMT -5
So in other words, you're Quake. Quake has a Jeep? Like most things, I wouldn't put it past her. |
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Post by malclave on Feb 12, 2019 12:20:46 GMT -5
Remember, you're only as old as you feel.
This morning I'm 93, but I'm hoping coffee will help.
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Post by Warlord on Feb 12, 2019 13:40:06 GMT -5
If I'm not really a girl, how come dudes keep saying sexist crap to me? I'm also: a very aggressive and assertive redneck a mathematician a network engineer a mountain climber a hunter a dog enthusiast (though I do love my kitties too) a jeep owner a total failure at makeup a decade older than most of you, maybe two As such I may not be the one to ask how to be a girl. I mostly fail to meet men's expectations of what a real woman is. Luckily, I firmly believe they can shove their expectations up their lonely solitary pelvic orifice. So in other words, you're Quake. Although Quake turns 21 this year... <3 lucid |
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abby
Old School
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Post by abby on Feb 12, 2019 14:05:21 GMT -5
“Lucid said:
If I'm not really a girl, how come dudes keep saying sexist crap to me?“
Well I’m not a girl and they say sexiest stuff to me too! And they should... it’s the Middle Ages! I like knights that want to save princess in my RP, not knights who are politically correct and feel the princess is more empowered if she saves herself. Nwn is the last refuge.
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Post by malclave on Feb 12, 2019 14:13:59 GMT -5
“Lucid said: If I'm not really a girl, how come dudes keep saying sexist crap to me?“ Well I’m not a girl and they say sexiest stuff to me too! And they should... it’s the Middle Ages! I like knights that want to save princess in my RP, not knights who are politically correct and feel the princess is more empowered if she saves herself. Nwn is the last refuge. I think lucid meant in what we laughingly call real life. If not, I want to know where I can get a jeep in game. |
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Post by Warlord on Feb 12, 2019 14:45:13 GMT -5
Well I’m not a girl and they say sexiest stuff to me too! And they should... it’s the Middle Ages! I like knights that want to save princess in my RP, not knights who are politically correct and feel the princess is more empowered if she saves herself. Nwn is the last refuge. I'd actually advocate the contrary to this myself, when our earthling social cultural upbringings from...1300 till 2019...need not apply in any sense for Faerun/FR. Some overlaps occur that 'feel' relatable, clearly, because that's our current perspective limit, but breaching into whole other creative spectrums yields stupendous differences.  but don't know, my -female knights- can still save you! |
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Post by mandene on Feb 12, 2019 15:22:30 GMT -5
“Lucid said: If I'm not really a girl, how come dudes keep saying sexist crap to me?“ Well I’m not a girl and they say sexiest stuff to me too! And they should... it’s the Middle Ages! I like knights that want to save princess in my RP, not knights who are politically correct and feel the princess is more empowered if she saves herself. Nwn is the last refuge. I disagree NWN is a game where females can be and are as badass as males. A PC is as likely to be the savior as the one in distress, no matter the sex. The only stat differences are based on race and not on gender. The paladin/knight us as likely to be male as female. The knightly code in FR isn't just about men being chivalrous towards women - it's as much about women being chivalrous to men. A female knight would as quickly be required to hold the door for a male courtier as male one is to a female. If anything, this game is as much about empowering girls as boys. You're not expecting d to be the princess waiting for o be sav d by a prince (and end up marrying the first guy who does) - you're expected to be the one doing the saving. |
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Post by heartofsilver on Feb 12, 2019 15:45:14 GMT -5
Welcome to the internet, where the men are men, the women are men, and the children are FBI agents. If I'm not really a girl, how come dudes keep saying sexist crap to me? I'm also: a very aggressive and assertive redneck a mathematician a network engineer a mountain climber a hunter a dog enthusiast (though I do love my kitties too) a jeep owner a total failure at makeup a decade older than most of you, maybe two As such I may not be the one to ask how to be a girl. I mostly fail to meet men's expectations of what a real woman is. Luckily, I firmly believe they can shove their expectations up their lonely solitary pelvic orifice. Oh... ...right, this is why I have a low-key crush on you. |
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Post by tingly on Feb 12, 2019 16:25:53 GMT -5
When you're selecting gender in this game, it does say that it's a purely aesthetic choice, and 'females of the realm can excel in any field of endeavor'. That's more than a concession for the game, as Ed Greenwood is an opinionated man about things like this and designed a lot of Forgotten Realms to fit his vision. That's our setting, rather than medieval Earth.
That being said, a character can absolutely have cultural or personal biases as they will.
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abby
Old School
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Post by abby on Feb 12, 2019 17:53:48 GMT -5
Ya that’s fine. I knew every woman would be a badass warrior which is why I play one that’s not, for variety's sake; I think Henrik covers the male version of the damsel in distress well enough. It’s something that a lot of men like in their hero fantasies, maybe women too I don’t know. Just a preference thing. Abby’s “empowered” too, just not as a warrior. I don’t think being good at killing needs to be the only relevant quality a person must have to be considered empowered. Don’t worry plenty of female PCs rescue Abby all the time too.
I do find that I wish your physical strength and con scores would increase the size and musculerature of your PC just like in fable though. A lady with 10str should be about the same muscle mass as a man with10str unless females in faerun have magically dense muscles. I’m all for equality of str, but muscle density and mass and all that is still muscle density and mass and all that.... you gotta have a certain amount of mass to achieve that 350lbs max press without magical enhancements. However I think that might be one of those can of worms opinions which is exactly why I should have stayed 10 miles from this goddamned topic.
Anyway...
I always say, when the extraordinary becomes ordinary, the ordinary becomes extraordinary.
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Post by Defunct Fiddlesticks on Feb 12, 2019 19:03:14 GMT -5
Ya that’s fine. I knew every woman would be a badass warrior which is why I play one that’s not, for variety's sake; I think Henrik covers the male version of the damsel in distress well enough. Henrik, while being a pacifist, is not someone I see as being a "damsel in distress" type. Yes, he sometimes needs help because he doesn't fight, but he's not without methods to deal with that in a nonviolent way. I based him on two doctors; one fictional and one not. The real life one is a surgeon friend of my family and if I am portraying elements of his character as being in distress then I must be doing something wrong  |
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abby
Old School
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Post by abby on Feb 12, 2019 19:12:41 GMT -5
I just mean: “can’t slay the dragon.”
Abby isn’t helpless either and is good at winning friends and influence (yuk yuk) or finding alternatives to violence, but I know a lot of people like to RP being defenders helping out non-combatants, and even though our PCs certainly have their strengths, sometimes a battle axe speeding toward our meager pacifists makes a strong argument that’s hard to debate. That’s where those knight in shining armor types like to feel like heroes setting themselves in the way. I know for a fact that if someone else played an “Abby-esk” character, I’d immediately want to make a paladin companion character.
So damsel in distress is partially kidding, though partially not and depends on the context. As I said above, I believe you can be a powerful, world shaping character without ever so much as touching a weapon, and that’s true for men or women.
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Post by hellscream123 on Feb 13, 2019 3:58:45 GMT -5
Blue is the greatest damsel and constantly distressed. Prove me wrong. But i believe qe have digressed a touch far from the OP. "How does one define their gender reference" my answer: life, sinply put. Create a character that acts as people you know and observed acting. There is no "wrong" answer in reguards to pure personality traits. On the physical note, d&d doesn't care. None of our stats make comparable sense to real life when you look at the numbers. Just go off the explanation of its point and describe whatever the heckle you want. |
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trauson
New Member
Idk.... Alive?
Posts: 95 
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Post by trauson on Feb 13, 2019 8:57:32 GMT -5
To be honest... in a game where you can be anyone that you want... ive met female players who live only for being romanced and saved like a damisel in distress and others that they want to be this baddass adventurer and hero.... I think its no matter what you just stay IC and true to your character
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Post by ShadowCatJen on Feb 13, 2019 10:38:11 GMT -5
While I find some of George R.R. Martin's writing problematic he does at least depict some decent and believable female characters. Take a page from him.
He was asked once at a panel, "How do you write women so well?"
He answered with a shrug, "I write them as human."
My husband played a character here on FRC for a few years named Chrysthania Tharkusdotter. The "barbarian librarian" was the general concept, a Uthgart Barbarian half-elf raised by her elven mother in Candlekeep. For a very long while we didn't let on OOCly that we were married or that "ArcadiaDragon" was male behind the screen. We didn't hide it, we just didn't feel it was info that people really needed to know so we kept it to ourselves until it would come up in conversations.
A few times Arc would catch people off guard and he's received tells in the past in the line of "Dude! I sometimes forget you're actually a male in real life!"
Arc never really ever asked me how to play a female character, he just sort of instinctually knew to give her various personality traits that were in line for the concept. He gave her a goal of simply being a better swordsman and wanted to perfect her technique so she could be even better than her father. All the other quirks he built around her past as both a bookworm and a warrior combined.
And that's one of the key things to a well written, well rounded, believable character. Goals.
Give your female character some ambition, some goal, some aim to achieve. Give them a reason for coming to Cormyr and don't let it just be "looking for love and a place to call home".
Let it be more then that. Find something that your character wants to do, then build the "feminine" aspects around that. If you don't then all you're really doing is just recreating a trope.
Also ask yourself how confident is this person in various aspects. Are they confident in their magic spells to the point of being egotistical about it? Are they humble about it, but know they have power? Are they confident when speaking to people or are they more of a shut in and rather not say much?
Again, if you want to be convincing as a female character, then make them "human" as possible. Give them dreams, hopes, aspirations, then build the personality quirks around those. Give them faults, let them make mistakes, and let them learn from those mistakes. Let them smile, let them frown, and don't pigeon hole them into one mode.
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Post by lucid on Feb 13, 2019 11:07:11 GMT -5
We're telling stories here.
This is not the middle ages. These humans didn't even evolve, they were created with a divine hand-wave and immediately began using magic to shape the world. We're actually telling stories about a Fallout world, here.... we are living in the blasted, mutated ruins of the golden age that fell from now-unattainable heights and shattered the earth when it hit.
Most women aren't heroes in this world? Fine, but harp on about that why don't you, instead of saying the other obvious point, that most men were useless, uneducated, frightened peasants who scratched their living out of the mud and got robbed by their landowners. See how we both could have just said "people", there?
Nobody tells stories about peasants unless they stop being one. And Princes are just as flippin' useless as Princesses, unless someone's telling a story about them being awesome. The fact that there are not so many stories about princesses has NOTHING to do with it being history, and everything to do with it being His Story.
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abby
Old School
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Post by abby on Feb 13, 2019 13:35:45 GMT -5
I think there’s tons of stories about princesses. They’re generally not war-centric, but is that bad? In faerun woman are equally as likely to fight in battles I guess but on earth they weren’t. I expect that’s why we have different fairytales and princess tales here?
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