Paladins: bound and blinded

[Paragon]

I'm creating this thread as the continuation of the unsolicited discussion that was began in the DM Q&A section.

heimdall said:

I'll go out there on the limb and say that playing a Lawful Good character is by no mean a requirement to act Lawful Stupid. If that's how your guy would respond in that situation....well...he deserves the bendover he's about to get. Heh

Well, this is just an exaggeration, I didn't want to give any evil players any ideas, so I made it into a joke. My problem is with no win situations, like an assassin pretending to be a damsel in distress while her buddies remain stealthed in the woods, calling a paladin out of town to go get assassinated. If a paladin doesn't aid a person in need then he is guilty of betraying his ethos. If a paladin had detect evil, he could see through the farce, but if not...pppllt!

There's a good example of this, if you've played through the paladin quest in Baldur's Gate II. The uncle of this girl you're protecting shows up to collect her. He's a real butthole, but there is a 50/50 chance that he's her uncle or an assassin. If you don't cast detect evil, there is really no way of knowing.

heimdall said:

If a companion you are with does this and you stand back and allow it to happen, or fail to react to it after it 'has' happened, you will find yourself remaking as a fighter.

Paladins are a difficult class to roleplay properly. Perhaps one of the most difficult classes out there. However, just because we don't give out tools that let people stand around spamming "Detect Evil" on players all the time does not mean you have to have your character behave as a total gullible nit-wit. Find out who is evil through roleplaying, and your interactions with other players. If indeed you are in a group in a dungeon and you have begun to suspect or have learned that one of that group is in fact an evil person, then you should either call him out, duel him, convince the rest of the party to eject the 'evil one' or walk away from said party yourself...even if you think OOC'ly that you may not survive the trek out alone...otherwise you have abandoned the principals and tenants of your god and risk the loss of divine favor. ICwise, your character should have the utmost faith that his diety will protect him. If he does not have that kind of faith, then he should not be a paladin in the first place.

Believe it or not, we've had paladins who've had to turn their backs on their party deep within the Underdark. Despite the risks they opted to leave the group and return home. (The party they left were not evil themselves, but thier actions made that character feel as though they could no longer abide their company)

It's all about roleplaying - and sometimes that means we do things to our characters that OOC we know might actually cost them a little (or a lot).

...believe me, I have no problem knowing what a paladin would do in any given situation. King Arthur was my bread and butter for years and years. I've extensively studied knights and the knightly orders, so I think I know what I'm talking about.

Here is the problem. In real life, knights didn't have to act perfect all the time, so they could do something pragmatic, and it would not be considered an evil act. The ends don't justify the means, but that doesn't mean that one has to act impractically, just to justify the opinion of how someone else thinks that they should act.

In a fantasy game, however, paladins are expected to act as near to perfect in everyone else's eyes as they can get. (Even people who's opinions shouldn't really count, like evil character's players, and DM's that consistently state that they hate paladins.) I don't really have a problem with that, except while hobbled with the unrelenting rules of the paladin, they are denied the one thing that would allow them to follow those rules. Therefore the rules favor evil characters.

Evil characters can act good as long as it's an act. As a matter of fact, you could play an assassin or blackguard and pretend to be the nicest person in the world, as long as it's entirely for the sake of getting everyone to trust you, so that you can do something really evil. Has a blackguard ever been forced to leave a party in the underdark because they were being too good?

Good characters, and especially paladins, are expected to obey all of these rules for behavior, and if they don't...*the DM shakes his fist and forces the player to roll a fighter instead*

I'm not saying any of this because I expect the injustice to be rectified. As a matter of fact, I think I would continue to play Alev even if he were more gimped than he is. (Please don't take that as a suggestion.)

[TermaForever]

Well I can't speak with too much authority as I have never played a paladin (though I have (and am) playing their Chaotic Evil buddies )

Now the man does make a slight point there. A paladin can be danced around by evil characters and not know it if that person is good at playing evil but acting good (which is why they love me so much: Adelius makes no attempt at pretending to be good). Now I don't agree that things favor evil characters, because as soon as you seem a little mean everyone and their grandmother starts brandishing a weapon in town and telling you to leave and go away forever or die or face judgement yada yada yada (a lot of altruistically nosey characters out there I noticed ) Not to mention we aint exactly gonna be finding parties to join everywhere we go.

So...not sure what all that was suppose to accomplish...but um....yeah paladins do kinda get it in the shorts (though maybe not as badly as some think...)

[marklar]

i think that's exactly why paladins are so hard to RP correctly. they can't lie, cheat, or pretend. now non-lawful good characters have a fair bit more of choice to what they do instead of duty. a good character can plot just as much as an evil person, only difference is the good person isn't plotting to kill or ruin peoples lives or etc.

and yes blackgaurds should leave a group if the blackgaurd thinks the group is too good, or the blackgaurd might just kill them one by one. i know a blackgaurd who left because an his evil buds weren't evil enough. a blackgaurd would be a fighter should the blackgaurd only display good/neutral behavior.

you make it sound like playing evil is soo easy, but really playing a pally is hard.

[marklar]

oh forgot to mention a request for a detect evil can be sent to a player. that doesn't mean walk around and ask everyone who you talk to, what it means is if your character starts to suspect evil while the other character is talking to you or whatever, send a PM the person can decide to tell you or not, they are not forced to though. i like to live by the rule that if someone asks me while i'm not being so nice i'll tell them i am evil, if they ask anyother time i'll tell them no or something. i've gotten 3 pms about this in nearly 2 years here.

[Retired DM Gallin]

You can't really draw a connection between paladin's in D&D and knights from real world history. First of all, there was no "alignment test" before someone was knighted, it simply happened if they did something that a king thought was worth knighting for. I don't have a lot of background on what it took to become a knight, but at the very least I know there were no lie detector tests. While a knight of the king may not have ended up as a CE madman, it's quite likely that one could become LN or NG. Second, and far more important, D&D paladin's are divine casters, and therefore dependant upon a deity to grant them their powers. While a paladin is quite capable of performing an evil act, it will cost them the favor of their deity.

Yes, paladin is a restrictive class, but it is that same way in PnP as well. I've recently tried playing one in the NWN2 OC with some friends, and I was surprised at how difficult it was to RP. They are supposed to be a model citizen. I think Heimdall's response really summed it up well.

~Gallin

[Talus]

marklar said:

oh forgot to mention a request for a detect evil can be sent to a player. that doesn't mean walk around and ask everyone who you talk to, what it means is if your character starts to suspect evil while the other character is talking to you or whatever, send a PM the person can decide to tell you or not, they are not forced to though. i like to live by the rule that if someone asks me while i'm not being so nice i'll tell them i am evil, if they ask anyother time i'll tell them no or something. i've gotten 3 pms about this in nearly 2 years here.

This is not correct. Detect evil can only be used with DM intervention.

No offense marklar

[Driderman]

It seems that this issue mainly resolves around paladins not having their detect evil radar to spot any potential trouble. I'd like to recommend taking it as an opportunity for rp, all the trouble you have to keep yourself out of not by the click of a button but by interaction with the environment and the other players, figuring out peoples motives and wondering who can be trusted and who can not. I believe that in the long run you may find that a lot more satifying than pressing your detect evil hotkey everytime you meet a new person.

As for evil having an easier time than good, well both yes and no. I am certain Blackguards suffer many restrictions similar to those of the paladin, only in 'reverse' of course. The difference being that Blackguards come from all varieties of evil, so their restrictions will most likely vary more according to their deity and alignment.

The essence of paladin is, as I see it, to be a paragon of Law and of Good, a model citizen, a role model and to adhere to a strict code of rules set down by a Divine Power. The paladin is not inherently infallible, but must strive towards perfection in terms of being just, being righteous, being fair, aiding those in need and helping old ladies cross the road, among other things. His very life and existence is dedicated to upholding the ideals of his God and the virtues of Law and Good.
So yeah, it is easier to be an evil, conniving, lying, self-centered bastard because such a person only has to look out for number one, himself and to the Hells with all others.
Succumbing to base villainy is always a lot easier than being a beacon of hope, justice and safety for those oppressed and in need, as it should be.
No one said it would be easy devoting your entire existence to being the instrument of the Gods.

[Thanatos]

Well, I didn't see the last discussion this stemmed from so I don't know how much I'm about to say has already been said. I'm playing a paladin on the server currently and I'm not finding it overwhelmingly difficult... For a long time I had a distaste for the class because it always seemed that 'once you met one paladin, you've met them all'. To me, a paladin and a blackguard are just two fighters that fight for a divine cause or principle, maybe even serving that principle blindly at times (but not necessarily so).

I guess what I'm saying is I don't find the paladin restrictions all that restrictions all that restricting. Don't lie, don't cheat, and always believe that what you're fighting for is right. The day your paladin realises that what he's fighting for is anything less than right, he is no longer a paladin. My paladin devotes himself to Tyr, and because of that, justice. He has a set of rules that he follows strictly because of who he is. Some of those rules are because of his class (don't lie, cheat, steal, be chaste), others are because of his diety (fight for justice, defend others from wrong-doing, bring the guilty to justice, obey the laws) and others are simply extra codes that he lives by because of how he was raised (be strong and ever-valorous, always be kind and compassionate in your dealings).

And these rules really aren't as rigid as they're made out to be. Paragon brought up Baldur's Gate II, and I distinctly remember there being a quest in there where at one point, your group could perform a task for the Order of the Radiant Heart where they would have to investigate a dangerous group of Fallen Paladins. If you had Keldorn in your group (a paladin from that same order), they'll notice him, but he makes no qualm at trying to throw them off. He simply says, "I am not the same man as you once knew", which is (technically) true, he has changed over time. The point is, you didn't see him say "I am he, and represent all that is right and ordered, and today I am your doom you faithless sons of the Abyss!" Why? Because saying that would not only jeopardise the greater good of the mission, but also it opts out any possibility of redemption on the part of the fallen. And Keldorn was a pretty rigid and unflexible paladin when you got right down to it: "Gray is an indecision, and I'll have no patience for it."

The point I'm trying to make is that paladins don't have to be RPed as the blind, convicted zealots they're stereotyped to be. I'm enjoying playing my paladin greatly; strongly and naievely devoted to an ordered world of justice, where men never find themselves having to turn against each other or against the laws of men. Though he never doubts that Tyr's way is right, he can sometimes doubt himself, and doubt whether his actions are the best way to go about Tyr's work.

Did any of that even make sense, or was I babbling? In any case, all Lawful alignments are restricting in their own way, and all Good alignment are restricting in their own way. It's also hard to RP an Evil person, because by doing such, you kind of shorten your expected lifespan on the server. Paladins really don't have it that much worse than anyone else, and I've never considered the 'detect evil' tool central to successfully RPing that class. (And as for thinking that playing the selfish guy is easy, good luck finding characters to party with you )

Ah, whatever, my two cents.

[Driderman]

thanatos said:

Did any of that even make sense, or was I babbling? In any case, all Lawful alignments are restricting in their own way, and all Good alignment are restricting in their own way. It's also hard to RP an Evil person, because by doing such, you kind of shorten your expected lifespan on the server. Paladins really don't have it that much worse than anyone else, and I've never considered the 'detect evil' tool central to successfully RPing that class. (And as for thinking that playing the selfish guy is easy, good luck finding characters to party with you )

I can personally vouch for that. It will come as no surprise to people that've met him that Korr is evil, in that base sort of villainy way. He's not out to take over the world or summon some dread infernal lord or whatnot, he's just a greedy, self-centered bastard who doesn't care one bit about his fellow living beings. Except maybe having a soft spot for orcs, of all things
And I think I can count the number of times I have partied with others on one hand. Not that I personally object to partying ( I love parties ;D ) but simply because well, his demeanor tends to put most people off and party trips usually turn ugly real quick when his companions start to disagree with him. So he's pretty much a solo player, simply because playing his personality and alignment so far has made sure no one wants to go into some dark cave far from help with him

[marklar]

talus said:

marklar said:

oh forgot to mention a request for a detect evil can be sent to a player. that doesn't mean walk around and ask everyone who you talk to, what it means is if your character starts to suspect evil while the other character is talking to you or whatever, send a PM the person can decide to tell you or not, they are not forced to though. i like to live by the rule that if someone asks me while i'm not being so nice i'll tell them i am evil, if they ask anyother time i'll tell them no or something. i've gotten 3 pms about this in nearly 2 years here.

This is not correct. Detect evil can only be used with DM intervention.

No offense marklar

oh well, i've never had it happen with DMs...well i know a certain pally that asked me that once before they became a DM. never had a probelm, though i know that it would be easy to have one that way

[Hackmaster]

I should say first this is a personal opinion and not necessarily FRC's opinion of detect evil. I base my own opinions off of many descriptions of the spell and Paladin's version over the years.

Even if detect evil was allowed to be used between two players without DM intervention or with it. It does not actually go oh yeah, this dude is evil, Detect evil detects evil intent. You could scan an entire tavern that may have 20 folks in it 5 of which is evil and detect nothing cause maybe they are all just chatting and drinking and having a good time.

It's not detect Alignment which is a spell, which we don't use, and if we did it's considered highly offensive to use such a spell on someone. As bad as coming out in the street and asking..."So whats your alignment buddy?" This would be as abrupt and awkward as walking up to a stranger on the street in real life and saying "So whats your morale's and values mister?"

Detect Evil guarantee's nothing IMO, it only helps if the player in question actually has ill intent on the mind at the time, weather towards you, someone else, or hatching an evil plot in his brain. My thoughts is in actuality a good person could potentially be detected as evil if they had such thoughts going on in their heads at the time you used the ability.

[catmage]

As an extention to Hackmaster's post, I'd like to say that I think evil as an alignment can't always be detected because an evil character might not percieve themselves as evil. Ailren, for example, is clearly aware that he is not a "good" person. He knows that he worships a dark goddess, that his study of evil entities means that he can't truely think that good is an exceptable lifestyle. However, he doesn't believe he's evil himself. He has the ability to be kind, and is capable of sacrificing himself to help his associates. He serves Tiamat, but out of a bizarre sense of familial obligation, not because he feels that evil is desirable in and of itself. Does that make him neutral? No, because he still kills without thought if he finds a valid reason, he is openly greedy and covetous of items of magic or beauty, and one of his favorite pass times is spreading information that is negative in nature, because he likes to see people in a state of discomfort.

Evil isn't always interested in propagating itself, and is not inherintly selfish. Evil can love, take care of orphens, and save small puppies. It's just that these same people are willing to make orphens by murdering parents they think are abusive, will kill people who look fuunily at those they love, and train the puppies to attack people who sing off key. Of course, that's just my opinion, and thus can be disputed by the DM team.

[Quadhund/Greenhouse]

There are other ways to get around not having the detect evil. If assassins do try to lure you into the woods saying they have a friend in distress, feel free to call a bluff check on the player. And a paladin doesn't have to be overly trusting. If he is going on a rescue mission, try to recruit people to come with. Assassins do not target paladins alone, so in the respect of being fooled into an assassination attempt, consider yourself equal with all the other players on the server.

Blackguards are held to the same standards on this server as paladins (in the opposite sense).

Classes that can block alignment detection are: assassins, bards, clerics, paladins, rangers, sorcerors, and wizards. So basically detect evil would work on rogues, fighters, monks, and druids that did not multiclass to get the alignment blocking. Plus there are magical items out there that can block alignment detection. My point here is that if we allowed alignment detection, we would also have to allow alignment blocking. I'm sure you wouldn't mind, but it would be a headache for us, the dms, to keep track of the complaints of "He tried to detect evil and I told him he couldn't and he said he could and blah blah blah" headache ensues.

[Munroe]

Also, by the description of Detect Evil (PHB 3.5, pg 219):

The spell can penetrate barriers, but 1 foot of stone, 1 inch of common metal, a thin sheet of lead, or 3 feet of wood or dirt blocks it.

Even for those characters who cannot block Detect Evil by magical means, mundane means are not too hard to obtain. Any old evil fighter could be walking around in lead-lined armour.

[mourndarkv]

I understand why things are the way they are here on RFC. However, Detect Evil is a supernatural ability of Paladins. It is a gift from the patron God to protect its most loyal followers. A boon. It Does take 1-4 rounds of focus to do so, so its not an instant-presto thing. OOoo your evil! And it has to be done intentionally. Now, any decent Paladin would never just "scan" everyone he met. I know Tremain only used it when he was 80% sure he was being duped by evil. And yes, auto scanning Paladins do mess it up for everyone who wouldn't do that. But, this is a multi-player society.. you'll get that. The rules have to be made generally, due to this.

Having said all that, a good character who is having a naughty thought should not ever show up on a Pallies detect evil radar. It isn't mind read. If the core of the character or NPC is good, then he should only find good. "You are of questionable intentions.. but, I sense you are not evil no matter your intentions. I warn you, watch your path Young Padawan .. for evil is a slippery slope.." Heh. Something like that perhaps.

Anyway, my two cents from a person who has played a Paladin. Are they a little striped here? Yes. No free mount, no detect evil, and no "awe" when people see you. Even most good guys are like "Nuts! Here comes a Paladin, hope he doesn't talk to me." Which is a shame, because Paladin's are supposed to be a shining light of good. Tremain never had a lot of those issues, but he was still young and learning. He also, wasn't prejudice or self righteous either.

[malignant]

I like to keep one thing in mind when playing Paladins, cavaliers, monks, samurai and others who follow a strict code. Lawful good does not mean Lawful Stupid, or Lawful Gullible. Just my two cents.