Us vs Them

[hellscream123]

I know. But it dies raise an important point. We as people live in a realm of the 21st century with giagantic strides in civil law. Both in its purpose and its exucution.

Cormyr and fearun exist at best. In the late renaissance law wise. Which still had no protections to ANYONE who wasnt high nobility c. Adventurers of all walks.

Food for thought reguarding the whole questioning disguises.

[Lady Frost]

Taking a step back, I'll give my two cents...

As I've said before, I generally agree with the OP. I think building a story together is important and I think being on the same page regarding what you expect from your rival is very important. I've been called out on my actions not always representing my words (and I don't disagree), and I explain it by not having this general understanding with my past "rivals". Either the defeat they sought (in my opinion) was too "strong" or I wasn't sure what their intention was and I fully defended my character. Another topic for another day.

Something else I think is very important, and I work very hard to make sure I abide by, is making sure a PC (or their player, at least) that I'm going to confront or attack has "chosen it themselves". And what I mean by that is they chose to not take the "out" that was given to them. Every PvP encounter, that I can think of, (besides maybe one), has only happened because the other PC (which may affect the people around them too) refused to take the out. No player should be worried about their PC being randomly targeted. Collateral damage happens, yes, but if your PC is targeted, you should have an idea of why it happened and have made the choice to have put your PC in the RP that lead to it. If it's obvious, like they attacked you first, then of course, kill them. If its less obvious, like they spread rumors, or engaged in less direct activities that created a conflict then there should be hints (maybe less than subtle ones) left that what they're doing is liable to get a response. Nobody's PC should die and then they wonder "why did I die", unless you have a great reasoning to give them later.

I hear so many stories of "I try to avoid PvP and I die." If that's true, then the attackers aren't doing a good enough job building a story. Even if someone -is- opposing you and may be working towards a "violent response". The player should at least know they're in that position and be able to take an out, if the damage hasn't already been done. If they refuse to take the out, for whatever reason, then so be it. That said, I've witnessed many -many- PC's that "claim no side" engaging in actions that could easily trigger responses. Just because you don't engage in "combat PvP" doesn't mean your "RP PvP" won't lead to combat against your character.

[StabbingNirvana]

On the topic of disguises, the Triad folks a few days prior to the PvP mentioned to several DMs that forcing the observer to request a disguise roll would lead to complaints of metagaming. We suggested that the responsibility should be on the disguised character to roll bluff regularly giving them a chance for any observers to make the choice on whether to notice or not. This curbs the metagaming claims and offers the players surrounding a chance to notice an error in the disguise and act appropriately if they feel like they have to.

[PhatDorf]

My piece in -that- particular situation...

I feel like forcing constant rolls for a situation where the intent and goal of the disguised character hasn't actually changed at all is just asking them to go until they fail, rather than rolling with the punches of the initial successes or failures of the roll.

Making someone re-roll constantly is just forcing an inevitable failure, along with them likewise being able to game it from the other side, knowing If you've rolled poorly, you can wait 2mins, and roll again hoping your disguise suddenly functions better. :/

Maybe we think differently, but I like seeing more consistency in a situation, instead of someone rapidly going from awful to masterful in their ability.

[...]

I just wanna point out that when I played here, this rule with the rolls for disguises didn't even exist. I wasn't aware of it and as such I thought being dressed up in white robes and acting as a reserved priestess would at least afford me some sort of a disguise as long as I stood in the corner and didn't draw attention. That's not the case it seems. Anyway, it looks like another rigged system to me and I'll always fail it because I have no skill points in bluff and people like Veli have dumped into spot/listen. Spot/Listen have actual mechanical benefits so people WILL have taken ranks in it while people like me wouldn't have taken anything in bluff because it didn't do anything meaningful when I was around and I have limited available skill points anyway. He can ask me for a roll for any little excuse, as has been proven so as far as I can tell, disguises are utterly useless.. unless you're bard.. lol, as if bards needed more benefits.

Anyway, I've really got into this game lately called Shadow Tactics, Blades of the Shogun. It's a really cool commandos style game I recommend to anyone who's into that kinda thing. There's a team of assassins each with different skills and one is a geisha character called Aiko. She can don a disguise and then use it to help distract guards. It's fun. I understand that particular strategy isn't worth anything here so I shall adapt


Sigh.. I can't get the quote thing to work, here's a link:

steamcdn-a.akamaihd.net/steam/apps/571410/ss_f5fe9f634a4c2106a6de72e57a43b9c44005ddcb.1920x1080.jpg?t=1482249329

[Deleted]

Jun 24, 2017 3:40:16 GMT -5 PhatDorf said:

My piece in -that- particular situation...

I feel like forcing constant rolls for a situation where the intent and goal of the disguised character hasn't actually changed at all is just asking them to go until they fail, rather than rolling with the punches of the initial successes or failures of the roll.

Making someone re-roll constantly is just forcing an inevitable failure, along with them likewise being able to game it from the other side, knowing If you've rolled poorly, you can wait 2mins, and roll again hoping your disguise suddenly functions better. :/

Maybe we think differently, but I like seeing more consistency in a situation, instead of someone rapidly going from awful to masterful in their ability.

Yeppers. There's already a system in NWN that works like that: the stealth/detect modal. Unless your hide/move silently skills are significantly higher than the other person's respective spot/listen skills, then the dice will eventually roll in the other players favor and reveal you.

[smacrasmacrasmacra]

The disguise rules are the bare minimum--not the end all and be all--of how to run disguise RP, folks. It's up to everybody, all sides, to try and enrich the experience by putting meat on those legalistic bones.

Hard and fast, I don't get into disguise RP situations. I don't because they almost always wind up with somebody being butthurt. Somebody with a disguise comes up to me and it seems proper I just roll with it, whatever, and then leave.

[Grimnir Gurnison]

As I hear people talking about maxing out skills in listen and spot and making constant rolls for disguise I find myself wondering what about modifiers. I'm not talking about the laughable modifiers of what some helms have on them now. If you want to make someone roll constant bluff checks great, but...

How far are you from the person? How long have you been wearing full plate and a full great helm/face mask in the sun? Can't feel too great and I bet that might have an effect on your skills. When was the last time you ate? When was the last time you hydrated with all that armor on? Have you been drinking? (That's an important question for us dwarves) Also how sharp can your eyes and ears really be with a giant pot on your head with slits cut in it basically? How many people are in town at that current moment? I'm sure they're making noise around you too. What time of day is it? Are your eyes as sharp at night as they are during the day? Is it raining/snowing/foggy? Have bolts of lightning been coming down from the sky striking random places in town? If there are and you're wearing a ton of metal how focused can you be feeling at that moment while questioning someone? Are the bugs biting the person wearing full plate armor because they are in a flea ridden dump of a town? Speaking of that dump of a town as people move around how much dust is in the air? Since people use fire to heat their homes/cook is there lots of smoke? How good are your eyes if a gust of smoke gets in them? What if the wind is blowing as you wear that helm how good can you really listen with it on? Now how sharp are you with a load of modifiers again? Real environmental effects will have an effect on your awesome eyes and ears if you want to wear that suit of full plate and great helm that you sleep in, eat in, and do everything in. Or are you brave enough to wear clothes with nothing on your head to cut those modifiers down to be an observant little machine, but vulnerable? But DrG it's a MAGIC helm surely I can feel like I'm in my air conditioned car and hear/see perfectly 24/7 right? Well I don't quite agree with that because magic was used to make you harder to hit not to feel comfy.

So if you want to make people roll constant rolls for disguise/detection/etc I feel a DM definitely needs to be watching because there are environmental effects that should definitely be in play that can't be portrayed by the game and if you want all those rolls then there should definitely be a boat load of modifiers because Greatgaunt is not the monitored environment of a prison or a bank. It's a dump town in the middle of nowhere with boatload of crazy going on. Furthermore I doubt any PCs are truly the law in Greatgaunt and any trying to portray themselves as law officers might have the real authorities not take kindly to that. If I see a crime depending on what it is I think the police are a lot happier if I report it rather than draw a firearm to deal out justice. Or can I walk about questioning people at random with the authority of police in my city? Yes, this game isn't like the times we live in. The forces of law that exist in these game towns might take an even dimmer view on people dealing out justice or attempting to within their jurisdiction. Or can I walk into your bank Stabbing in a kevlar and plate vest with an AR-15 and tell you, "Don't worry I'm taking care of your security."? Walk into a jail/prison Rane in riot gear and armed saying, "Don't sweat this guys. I'm just a citizen looking to do his part to make sure these lawbreakers don't step out of line."?

But really getting back to the OP here like others have posted it isn't about us vs. them. This is a game. What does it really cost you to see someone that wants to just walk about disguised so they can be in town to hear stories/news of Greatgaunt and leave them be? If they're not causing problems and they're just standing there listening and watching so they can feel included what does it really cost you to just leave them alone? I've sat in the Unfortunate Orc for a couple hours before and you know what I heard? Nothing, because there were no PCs there. It was pretty boring because when there aren't real people there or a DM there to add some flavor to it there's just nothing to it. So if someone isn't causing problems and wants to be around others to be social then is there really a problem?

[Deleted]

Jun 23, 2017 10:00:09 GMT -5 Penguin said:

FRC exists because it was established as a server where all players can find a role for themselves, and accept the ways in which others play their own characters. There are conflicts from this, both IC, and OOC, because no one plays the same, nor do we always agree with each others choices. We survive however because when we find ourselves in a state of disagreement, we discuss it and come to a resolution. If a resolution between two characters is not in the cards, then the players of those characters can still come to an understanding with each other than their characters will pass each other by when possible, and not maliciously target each other, accepting that there may be times when conflict is inevitable due to groups, companions, DM events, etc. At those times, players are expected to accept each other with good grace.

There is no "them" on this server. There is only "us." And what we make of it.

It seems to me that if your purpose is to advance your chars story and partake in advancing other chars stories then the pvp rules make your task much harder.  After all only the winner is allowed to use that rp in advancing their story... the loser just wakes up dead with no story.  Why not allow losers to advance their story too? (yes, Lily is a loser)

How can you not have 'Us vs Them' if only the winner of pvp is allowed to advance their story?


You can call me an Us if you wish... but I sure feel like a Them.  Perhaps the popularity of this thread speaks to the chance that I am not the only one. 

[Rane]

Just to clarify. I don't want constant rolls. I just want a clear effort. That's all.

[malclave]

Jun 24, 2017 3:40:16 GMT -5 PhatDorf said:

I feel like forcing constant rolls for a situation where the intent and goal of the disguised character hasn't actually changed at all is just asking them to go until they fail, rather than rolling with the punches of the initial successes or failures of the roll.

What if it wasn't constant?

Say, upon beginning an "encounter" (like coming into "talk" range of people standing around in Greatgaunt) a skill check is made. That roll sets the DC for the disguise to be penetrated, by the people already there or anyone else who subsequently joins the encounter, and for 5 RL minutes after the encounter is concluded. Changing maps does not necessarily end the encounter; PCs and NPCs alike who are not in the disguised character's confidence will keep the encounter going.

If the encounter ends (including the 5 RL minute delay) and the disguised character enters a new encounter, others that were in a previous encounter within 1 RL hour gain a +2 cumulative circumstance bonus to penetrate the disguise. From an IC standpoint, this represents picking up on discrepancies between the encounters; OOC, it addresses the potential of someone just breaking off the encounter for 5 minutes in the hopes of coming back with a better roll. If the entire previous encounter was within a PVP "Death Amnesia" window, no circumstance bonus applies.

A DM, of course, can require additional checks or rule that rolls are not needed in a particular encounter. Also, if something like this were done, there would need to be decisions made as to how much information a person making an opposed roll should know. If I barely beat the disguise check, especially on someone I haven't met before, I might know they're in disguise, but not who it is... it could well be some Cormyrian noble pulling a page out of Henry V.

[malclave]

Grimnir wrote:

Have you been drinking? (That's an important question for us dwarves) Also how sharp can your eyes and ears really be with a giant pot on your head with slits cut in it basically

Well, some nonmagical helms do give bonuses to Spot and Search.

As far as the drinking... how much of a penalty do you think dwarves should get when sober?

[mandene]

Jun 24, 2017 3:40:16 GMT -5 PhatDorf said:

My piece in -that- particular situation...

I feel like forcing constant rolls for a situation where the intent and goal of the disguised character hasn't actually changed at all is just asking them to go until they fail, rather than rolling with the punches of the initial successes or failures of the roll.

Making someone re-roll constantly is just forcing an inevitable failure, along with them likewise being able to game it from the other side, knowing If you've rolled poorly, you can wait 2mins, and roll again hoping your disguise suddenly functions better. :/

Maybe we think differently, but I like seeing more consistency in a situation, instead of someone rapidly going from awful to masterful in their ability.

Just a note - this is exactly how hide/move silently and spot/listen work - the difference is that it's rerolled all the time by the game engine (http://nwn.wikia.com/wiki/Detect). So, why not for disguise?

Edit: Just saw @steelgrin said the same thing

[StabbingNirvana]

Creasus, conditions on disguises change. People talk, they move, people don't move which rouses suspicion, there's wind. THERE'S WIND! Having 1 disguise roll to rule them all when you're standing there for 8 hours, 15 minutes, or 2 hours is bologna. Even though bologna is my favorite sliced meat, it's still a term for that swaps places with doodoo. Regular rolls is the most logical way around things. If you want to minimize your risk to your disguise being spotted, best not to stay around in public spaces if you're in a disguise. Use stealth, invisibility, or so on.

[StabbingNirvana]

Jun 24, 2017 5:16:43 GMT -5 Grimnir Gurnison said:

Or can I walk into your bank Stabbing in a kevlar and plate vest with an AR-15 and tell you, "Don't worry I'm taking care of your security."? Walk into a jail/prison Rane in riot gear and armed saying, "Don't sweat this guys. I'm just a citizen looking to do his part to make sure these lawbreakers don't step out of line."? ?

As long as I knew the guy that was doing it well enough, I probably wouldn't mind, tbh. I'm sure this happens regularly in Texas where there's open carry laws. Those Texans ....

[PhatDorf]

That's fair ^^, and good points.
Especially on an extended amount of time.
I'm not saying you could put on your disguise at home, get a 20 then never change outfit for a week, and be locked in godmode, but that's certainly a logical expansion of that idea.

And though I don't reeaally agree with how hide/spot etc is implemented in NWN, being a similarly themed skill, it makes sense to me to be consistent to the hard-coded rolls.

I'm a fan of the idea of letting rolls last longer (note: not indefinitely), it seems more belivable for me, gives me some more immersion instead of being reminded that nothing actually matters, because of RNG.
I think that something that was standing out to me, and made me knee-jerk, was the idea of streams of people arriving in town just machine-gunning one person with spot rolls, stood there for 10 mins, until they fail.

[baogur]

Jun 24, 2017 8:14:28 GMT -5 StabbingNirvana said:

Jun 24, 2017 5:16:43 GMT -5 Grimnir Gurnison said:

Or can I walk into your bank Stabbing in a kevlar and plate vest with an AR-15 and tell you, "Don't worry I'm taking care of your security."? Walk into a jail/prison Rane in riot gear and armed saying, "Don't sweat this guys. I'm just a citizen looking to do his part to make sure these lawbreakers don't step out of line."? ?

As long as I knew the guy that was doing it well enough, I probably wouldn't mind, tbh. I'm sure this happens regularly in Texas where there's open carry laws. Those Texans ....

One of the reasons why I don't live in Austin. I'm sure there are many people with open carry licences that are good guys just defending themselves. But there are twice as many crazy people with open carry who would snap over a simple argument. It also doesn't help that Texas has a few angry racists too.

[Slaughterhouse]

Jun 24, 2017 9:54:30 GMT -5 baogur said:

Jun 24, 2017 8:14:28 GMT -5 StabbingNirvana said:

As long as I knew the guy that was doing it well enough, I probably wouldn't mind, tbh. I'm sure this happens regularly in Texas where there's open carry laws. Those Texans ....

One of the reasons why I don't live in Austin. I'm sure there are many people with open carry licences that are good guys just defending themselves. But there are twice as many crazy people with open carry who would snap over a simple argument. It also doesn't help that Texas has a few angry racists too.

Lets keep our personal opinions on topics like that to ourselves.

[DOT]

Jun 24, 2017 10:19:55 GMT -5 Slaughterhouse said:

Jun 24, 2017 9:54:30 GMT -5 baogur said:

One of the reasons why I don't live in Austin. I'm sure there are many people with open carry licences that are good guys just defending themselves. But there are twice as many crazy people with open carry who would snap over a simple argument. It also doesn't help that Texas has a few angry racists too.

Lets keep our personal opinions on topics like that to ourselves.

Or discuss them in the other appropriate parts of the forum (ex politics section). 😀



Just as an aside for fun tricks since everyone keeps mentioning stealth vs detect. I believe you can technically get a lucky crit roll on listen even with a low investment. That said if the stealthy person were to cast silence on themselves, listen would never work against them unless the spell faded.

*the more you know=====---

[Fluffy the Mad]

Jun 24, 2017 11:54:37 GMT -5 DOT said:

Or discuss them in the other appropriate parts of the forum (ex politics section). 😀



Just as an aside for fun tricks since everyone keeps mentioning stealth vs detect. I believe you can technically get a lucky crit roll on listen even with a low investment. That said if the stealthy person were to cast silence on themselves, listen would never work against them unless the spell faded.

*the more you know=====---

The politics sub-board was removed from the forums a few months ago.

As to the disguise topic, I'm on the middleground between Creasus' suggestion and the stealth modes. They don't necessarily need to be constant, but frequent enough that if someone is RPing a disguise, it should be clear that they're putting forth an active effort. A natural 1 failure/20 success is best removed, at least in the direct checks where a bluff is significantly higher than the spotter's skills.

I'm staying out of the rest of the topic, since I don't care to get involved in the arguments to the 'us vs. them' mentality.

[FlyingMidget]

Jun 24, 2017 12:11:40 GMT -5 Fluffy the Mad said:

Jun 24, 2017 11:54:37 GMT -5 DOT said:

Or discuss them in the other appropriate parts of the forum (ex politics section). 😀



Just as an aside for fun tricks since everyone keeps mentioning stealth vs detect. I believe you can technically get a lucky crit roll on listen even with a low investment. That said if the stealthy person were to cast silence on themselves, listen would never work against them unless the spell faded.

*the more you know=====---

The politics sub-board was removed from the forums a few months ago.

As to the disguise topic, I'm on the middleground between Creasus' suggestion and the stealth modes. They don't necessarily need to be constant, but frequent enough that if someone is RPing a disguise, it should be clear that they're putting forth an active effort. A natural 1 failure/20 success is best removed, at least in the direct checks where a bluff is significantly higher than the spotter's skills.

I'm staying out of the rest of the topic, since I don't care to get involved in the arguments to the 'us vs. them' mentality.

Just replying to both of you, In both PnP and NWN there is no auto win on natural 20 for skill rolls, that is exclusive to Attack rolls and Saving throws. The same goes for natural 1 = auto failure. You either beat the associated DC or you fail to meet it and a 20 will only pass if the roll + your skill actually beat such.  (As a note, if you get your hide/ms high enough to be higher then your opponents opposed roll with the hidden modifiers they will never see you Tal).

I've never understood this servers fascination with the players using the wrong rules for things, but it is the way it is.   It's like ability score checks, in a contest of strength their is only a roll if both people have the same strength, otherwise the one with the higher strength score is always stronger (no natural d20 will make your puny elf wizard with 8 STR stronger then the 22 STR half orc nor would it allow you to carry what he could).  This goes for Charisma checks too. . . I've always face palmed seeing someone roll a charisma check and going they're now beautiful with a -1 modifier.

I'm probably done with this topic myself, I just wanted to comment on this.

FM.

[Rane]

Jun 24, 2017 13:45:50 GMT -5 FlyingMidget said:

Jun 24, 2017 12:11:40 GMT -5 Fluffy the Mad said:

The politics sub-board was removed from the forums a few months ago.

As to the disguise topic, I'm on the middleground between Creasus' suggestion and the stealth modes. They don't necessarily need to be constant, but frequent enough that if someone is RPing a disguise, it should be clear that they're putting forth an active effort. A natural 1 failure/20 success is best removed, at least in the direct checks where a bluff is significantly higher than the spotter's skills.

I'm staying out of the rest of the topic, since I don't care to get involved in the arguments to the 'us vs. them' mentality.

Just replying to both of you, In both PnP and NWN there is no auto win on natural 20 for skill rolls, that is exclusive to Attack rolls and Saving throws. The same goes for natural 1 = auto failure. You either beat the associated DC or you fail to meet it and a 20 will only pass if the roll + your skill actually beat such.  (As a note, if you get your hide/ms high enough to be higher then your opponents opposed roll with the hidden modifiers they will never see you Tal).

I've never understood this servers fascination with the players using the wrong rules for things, but it is the way it is.   It's like ability score checks, in a contest of strength their is only a roll if both people have the same strength, otherwise the one with the higher strength score is always stronger (no natural d20 will make your puny elf wizard with 8 STR stronger then the 22 STR half orc nor would it allow you to carry what he could).  This goes for Charisma checks too. . . I've always face palmed seeing someone roll a charisma check and going they're now beautiful with a -1 modifier.

I'm probably done with this topic myself, I just wanted to comment on this.

FM.

I don't think they are saying a 20 should win.

They are pointing out the d20 instant success mechanic on the server.

[Southpaw]

The problem I have with people walking around disguised is when I feel like I have to play dumb to not figure them out. Personally, I like to apply my full wits to any situation in the game without playing with one hand tied behind my back, and the floaty name automatically gives the character away. Now instead of applying myself to a challenge, I have to constantly make decisions about just how smart I think my character would be, and hold myself back when I'd rather be stretching myself. Obviously there's nothing to be done about that, because you can't turn off your character's name tag when you go in disguise. I just find it to be annoying to have the piece of information my character wants, and which I'd honestly like to come across, floating there in my face, like, "Hey look! It's Bob! You know Bob that your character wants to chop into pieces and turn in to the authorities? Well this is Bob! It's Bob, I say, Bob! *wiggle bottom* Bob, Bob, Bob!" while I'm obligated to have my character be like, "So, Juanita, how was your day today?" Half my insides want to ramp up for battle while the other half is like, "*blows whistle* Personal foul! Number 1 on the offense! Illegal use of out of character knowledge! Ten yard penalty, repeat second down!" Number one on the offense tends to head to the locker room and bang his head on the lockers for a while.

[FlyingMidget]

Jun 24, 2017 14:02:18 GMT -5 Rane said:

Jun 24, 2017 13:45:50 GMT -5 FlyingMidget said:

Just replying to both of you, In both PnP and NWN there is no auto win on natural 20 for skill rolls, that is exclusive to Attack rolls and Saving throws. The same goes for natural 1 = auto failure. You either beat the associated DC or you fail to meet it and a 20 will only pass if the roll + your skill actually beat such.  (As a note, if you get your hide/ms high enough to be higher then your opponents opposed roll with the hidden modifiers they will never see you Tal).

I've never understood this servers fascination with the players using the wrong rules for things, but it is the way it is.   It's like ability score checks, in a contest of strength their is only a roll if both people have the same strength, otherwise the one with the higher strength score is always stronger (no natural d20 will make your puny elf wizard with 8 STR stronger then the 22 STR half orc nor would it allow you to carry what he could).  This goes for Charisma checks too. . . I've always face palmed seeing someone roll a charisma check and going they're now beautiful with a -1 modifier.

I'm probably done with this topic myself, I just wanted to comment on this.

FM.

I don't think they are saying a 20 should win.

They are pointing out the d20 instant success mechanic on the server.

I was correcting this notion "I believe you can technically get a lucky crit roll on listen even with a low investment."  and pointing out that what the players use isn't actually the correct use of the rule, which should be corrected.   Pointing out the actual rule to players? That's always a good thing when that sort of thing pops up, I wasn't arguing one way or the other about weather a disguise should be immune to everything on a natural 20 but more on players should make use of the proper rules associated with skill rolls and ability rolls rather then just chalking it upto this is the way saving throws work so this is how i'll do it and that sort of thing should be corrected in my opinion.

Actually I might just make a DM Q&A about this, get a DM ruling which way people should be using such.

FM.

[Fluffy the Mad]

Jun 24, 2017 13:45:50 GMT -5 FlyingMidget said:

Just replying to both of you, In both PnP and NWN there is no auto win on natural 20 for skill rolls, that is exclusive to Attack rolls and Saving throws. The same goes for natural 1 = auto failure. You either beat the associated DC or you fail to meet it and a 20 will only pass if the roll + your skill actually beat such.  (As a note, if you get your hide/ms high enough to be higher then your opponents opposed roll with the hidden modifiers they will never see you Tal).

I've never understood this servers fascination with the players using the wrong rules for things, but it is the way it is.   It's like ability score checks, in a contest of strength their is only a roll if both people have the same strength, otherwise the one with the higher strength score is always stronger (no natural d20 will make your puny elf wizard with 8 STR stronger then the 22 STR half orc nor would it allow you to carry what he could).  This goes for Charisma checks too. . . I've always face palmed seeing someone roll a charisma check and going they're now beautiful with a -1 modifier.

I'm probably done with this topic myself, I just wanted to comment on this.

FM.

I was referring to the common player perception of assuming auto-success and failure in such skill checks when opposing other players. Some do it, some don't; I'd make sure it's clear in the disguise rules that neither is the case. But it's the call of those in higher places than I.

[Lady Frost]

Jun 24, 2017 3:49:35 GMT -5 ... said:

I just wanna point out that when I played here, this rule with the rolls for disguises didn't even exist. I wasn't aware of it and as such I thought being dressed up in white robes and acting as a reserved priestess would at least afford me some sort of a disguise as long as I stood in the corner and didn't draw attention. That's not the case it seems. Anyway, it looks like another rigged system to me and I'll always fail it because I have no skill points in bluff and people like Veli have dumped into spot/listen. Spot/Listen have actual mechanical benefits so people WILL have taken ranks in it while people like me wouldn't have taken anything in bluff because it didn't do anything meaningful when I was around and I have limited available skill points anyway. He can ask me for a roll for any little excuse, as has been proven so as far as I can tell, disguises are utterly useless.. unless you're bard.. lol, as if bards needed more benefits.

Anyway, I've really got into this game lately called Shadow Tactics, Blades of the Shogun. It's a really cool commandos style game I recommend to anyone who's into that kinda thing. There's a team of assassins each with different skills and one is a geisha character called Aiko. She can don a disguise and then use it to help distract guards. It's fun. I understand that particular strategy isn't worth anything here so I shall adapt


Sigh.. I can't get the quote thing to work, here's a link:

steamcdn-a.akamaihd.net/steam/apps/571410/ss_f5fe9f634a4c2106a6de72e57a43b9c44005ddcb.1920x1080.jpg?t=1482249329

Bluff has always been there for disguises. In fact, until more recently, bluff was THE SKILL for disguises, and lying AND countering lying. Now there are other skills that can be used in various situations. Bluff has always been used.

I congratulate the Paladins and other goodly folks if they're putting points into non-combat skills, like detection skills. It's a huge pet-peeve when I see players RP their PC's one way and not have the skills or ability points to back it up. I'd probably be disheartened to find out how many sneaks and assassins don't have any bluff yet think they can disguise themselves. Even Zodika, who is a cleric (with bluff as a cross-class skill) has like a 25 bluff modifier. Her persuade modifier is -way- higher than that too. I've spent at least 3 feats, and tons of skill points on her non-combat skills and when other players think they can get it all for free -or just ignore it because they can't compete with their own skills- I get really annoyed and defensive.

So, you, goodly folks, that want to use rolls against one PC, I hope you're willing to use rolls against the rest of us too and not brush it off because you're suddenly not on the right end of the numbers.

[bloodalchemist]

Rolling bluff, intimidate, persuade on things your character says is not a catch all for convincing someone. Merely a suggestion that their words carry more weight, depending on the roll. Outside of the disguise rules, there are no established rules about how one plays out these rolls against another player. Especially lacking a real Sense Motive skill, i think this is important, because people are always going to disagree how to handle/react to these things, especially if your rp can't back up your rolls. Keep in mind Mara has a 43 intimidate before buffs, I follow these rules myself and will only very very rarely roll intimidate, usually as a last warning before potential pvp.

[...]

Jun 24, 2017 16:03:32 GMT -5 Lady Frost said:

Jun 24, 2017 3:49:35 GMT -5 ... said:

I just wanna point out that when I played here, this rule with the rolls for disguises didn't even exist. I wasn't aware of it and as such I thought being dressed up in white robes and acting as a reserved priestess would at least afford me some sort of a disguise as long as I stood in the corner and didn't draw attention. That's not the case it seems. Anyway, it looks like another rigged system to me and I'll always fail it because I have no skill points in bluff and people like Veli have dumped into spot/listen. Spot/Listen have actual mechanical benefits so people WILL have taken ranks in it while people like me wouldn't have taken anything in bluff because it didn't do anything meaningful when I was around and I have limited available skill points anyway. He can ask me for a roll for any little excuse, as has been proven so as far as I can tell, disguises are utterly useless.. unless you're bard.. lol, as if bards needed more benefits.

Anyway, I've really got into this game lately called Shadow Tactics, Blades of the Shogun. It's a really cool commandos style game I recommend to anyone who's into that kinda thing. There's a team of assassins each with different skills and one is a geisha character called Aiko. She can don a disguise and then use it to help distract guards. It's fun. I understand that particular strategy isn't worth anything here so I shall adapt


Sigh.. I can't get the quote thing to work, here's a link:

steamcdn-a.akamaihd.net/steam/apps/571410/ss_f5fe9f634a4c2106a6de72e57a43b9c44005ddcb.1920x1080.jpg?t=1482249329

Bluff has always been there for disguises. In fact, until more recently, bluff was THE SKILL for disguises, and lying AND countering lying. Now there are other skills that can be used in various situations. Bluff has always been used.

I congratulate the Paladins and other goodly folks if they're putting points into non-combat skills, like detection skills. It's a huge pet-peeve when I see players RP their PC's one way and not have the skills or ability points to back it up. I'd probably be disheartened to find out how many sneaks and assassins don't have any bluff yet think they can disguise themselves. Even Zodika, who is a cleric (with bluff as a cross-class skill) has like a 25 bluff modifier. Her persuade modifier is -way- higher than that too. I've spent at least 3 feats, and tons of skill points on her non-combat skills and when other players think they can get it all for free -or just ignore it because they can't compete with their own skills- I get really annoyed and defensive.

So, you, goodly folks, that want to use rolls against one PC, I hope you're willing to use rolls against the rest of us too and not brush it off because you're suddenly not on the right end of the numbers.

That's because you're simply better than me, Frost.

It wasn't a rule when I played. A guideline perhaps, but not a hard rule.

Spot and Listen are combat skills.

I think I'm going to have to pull the "I don't care" card on you being peeved off with people not dumping skill points into bluff. I mean, you're free to be peeved off by it but I don't see it as being cheaty or anything. I think it's kinda cool to put ranks in these skills if you want to but it's not something I'd ever hold someone over or look down upon for. That's just me though. If it makes you feel any better I did take 10 in charisma because I didn't feel my character was ugly enough to warrant an 8. I hope at least in that you can be proud of me.

<3

[Animayhem]

Personally I feel people should put stats where they feel it suits them rp wise same thing if multi-classing.

However we are all different  some go for mechanics and some not.   I see the way some skills and classes are taken cheesy but hey that's the way people want to play go for it.

As for dice rolls I rarely use them but when I do it is only once for the skill and during the rp unless asked by a dm to do so.

Unless it is really detrimental to my role play I just go with the flow.  Its only a game.   

Play as you wish but mind the rules and be prepared to pay the price.

[smacrasmacrasmacra]

By my recollections, in PnP, skills like bluff and intimidate and sense motive were intended to represent a PC's interaction with an NPC (and vice verse). The rule of thumb being, player v. player stuff is built entirely on roleplay not roll-play. Versus NPCs the roleplay influences the roll-play heavily, but there are still rolls.

In NWN PW's, though? Eh...they're all different and they're all the same. Everybody's bringing a hundred different preconceptions into this with how it should be and how they've seen it done and how the thousands of posts are all conflicting, swirling rehashes similar to this particular iteration of rehash. I don't know if any set of rules is gonna be able to sort this out for us, guys. I don't think so...it's been a long time since I /have/ thought that any set of rules could sort out these kinds of interactions on an RP server. None of the hard and fast rules are worth a durn unless we're all in agreement about a few things:

1) Don't be a dick.
2) Play a bit of "yes and."
3) Really...don't be a dick.
4) DO try to have FUN.
5) See 1 and 3.


EDIT:  As FlyingMidget pointed out, actually investing in the skills you are using in RP goes a loooooong way towards establishing the validity of your social RP with others.  A long way.