Elven RP

[appleseedy]

just wondering if people could chime in about the likelihood of an Elven Blackguard following Sheverash. Feel fre to post ideas about rp/lore or whatever else makes sense

[mandene]

I think it could make sense if you see the class as representative of Divine Champion (in D&D Divine Champion can have any alignment). the CoT on NWN allows only non-evil alignments. And I've seen many use Blackguard instead for the Divine Champion.

Divine Champion among elves isn't that weird.

[Munroe]

Aug 9, 2015 7:36:59 GMT -5 mandene said:

I think it could make sense if you see the class as representative of Divine Champion (in D&D Divine Champion can have any alignment). the CoT on NWN allows only non-evil alignments. And I've seen many use Blackguard instead for the Divine Champion.

Divine Champion among elves isn't that weird.

Blackguard on FRC is blackguard, not an evil divine champion. The blackguard must make a pact with an evil outsider. That could include a representative of an evil deity. However, Shevarash isn't evil. So no, Shevarash would not have blackguards that serve him because he is Chaotic Neutral, so doesn't qualify for the purposes of the blackguard's pact.

Blackguard class should be used as a blackguard. Blackguards of evil deities do function in a similar capacity to evil divine champion, but they are still blackguards, not evil divine champions. They still make pacts with evil outsiders, those evil outsiders just happen to be evil deities.

Shevarash can actually have divine champions on FRC, but their alignment would have to be non-evil due to the class limitation. As Shevarash is Chaotic Neutral himself (ie non-evil), that's not too much of a stretch.

[mysticalkas]

Agreed, even elves in their free loving nature have off shoots of dedication at moments in their lives. I have never looked at the class actually, but the alignment may be an issue with the mechanics of the game *looks up to Mandene's post*. I have a limited grasp of things here, and get a lot about playing from the Forums and what others that I have seen post. I am kinda limited on my understanding on how things work, but would enjoy seeing what you are doing with it. *elfy hugs*


//seeing dm post.......perhaps trying something else then.

[mandene]

Aug 9, 2015 8:22:10 GMT -5 Munroe said:

Aug 9, 2015 7:36:59 GMT -5 mandene said:

I think it could make sense if you see the class as representative of Divine Champion (in D&D Divine Champion can have any alignment). the CoT on NWN allows only non-evil alignments. And I've seen many use Blackguard instead for the Divine Champion.

Divine Champion among elves isn't that weird.

Blackguard on FRC is blackguard, not an evil divine champion. The blackguard must make a pact with an evil outsider. That could include a representative of an evil deity. However, Shevarash isn't evil. So no, Shevarash would not have blackguards that serve him because he is Chaotic Neutral, so doesn't qualify for the purposes of the blackguard's pact.

Blackguard class should be used as a blackguard. Blackguards of evil deities do function in a similar capacity to evil divine champion, but they are still blackguards, not evil divine champions. They still make pacts with evil outsiders, those evil outsiders just happen to be evil deities.

Shevarash can actually have divine champions on FRC, but their alignment would have to be non-evil due to the class limitation. As Shevarash is Chaotic Neutral himself (ie non-evil), that's not too much of a stretch.

I stand corrected, then.

[goldenhearts]

Lore aside, I tend to think that Evil is simply subjective. Just like good. Being evil does not mean you have to go out and be an idiot to kill people at random, it's the acts you do against certain things. I firmly believe an Evil Elf is possible, as an assassin that works for the Elves, would not be good. However that same Elf, could follow the Seldarine because that is their way. They could even uphold the ideals of a "Goodly Elf" and still fit in that society. A perfect example, is a Evil Elf that actually does harm to Elven foes, like the Drow and Orcs. In such a manner that it would be frowned upon by the goodly sort.

A Blackguard, tends to be similar in many aspects, however the canon side of it tends to restrict a flavour of role play on the server. Personally, if a good story was even possible. To create a Elven Blackguard, and did fit the ideal. It could be worth loosening the strings, to make a interesting character. But again, that is my view and no doubt you'd need to get permission to expand on the norm.

[goldenhearts]

I did want to add, I actually played a Elven assassin that worked for the Elves elsewhere, and it did make some interesting role play on what she did.

[erratic1]

Aug 9, 2015 8:36:30 GMT -5 @ferrynik said:

Maybe he might make a pact with a demon, in order to avenge his family/friends, that were killed by the drows? Shevarash allows CE followers, it seems...?
He could be the Champion of Shevarash for sure, there's no problem with that, i think, still AA prc would be more preferable imho.

Yes but his actions would be still as Sheverash expects from his followers- a total comittment to vengeance against Drow, above all else.

Seeing as Elven Paladins are extremely rare, an anti paladin such as this would be also, extremely rare, not to mention Blackguard is an application only PrC here as I recall, so in the end it's going to be down to the DM team what they think of this.

[Syd's Blue Sky]

Aug 9, 2015 12:06:12 GMT -5 erratic1 said:

Aug 9, 2015 8:36:30 GMT -5 @ferrynik said:

Maybe he might make a pact with a demon, in order to avenge his family/friends, that were killed by the drows? Shevarash allows CE followers, it seems...?
He could be the Champion of Shevarash for sure, there's no problem with that, i think, still AA prc would be more preferable imho.

Yes but his actions would be still as Sheverash expects from his followers- a total comittment to vengeance against Drow, above all else.

Seeing as Elven Paladins are extremely rare, an anti paladin such as this would be also, extremely rare, not to mention Blackguard is an application only PrC here as I recall, so in the end it's going to be down to the DM team what they think of this.

Part of what makes Paladins so rare among elfies is the Lawful requirement. Blackguards can be any evil, so three times as many alignment squares apply to them.

Blackguard is no longer an application only PrC, so DMs no longer control them through any individualized process (hence Sorc/BG and Pally/BG being banned now). frc.proboards.com/post/228192/thread

[Viridian Knight]

Honestly with the whole fey'ri issue and all the issues involving evil outsiders in the past for elves, I don't know if even a Sheverashian would resort to making a pact with an evil outsider and they are known to employ tricks that the Drow use to fight them.

In truth considering you're wanting to play a Divine Champion, I'd honestly say make a suggestion for the removal of evil restriction from the class being your best option.

[Hellwalker]

Aug 9, 2015 12:31:37 GMT -5 Viridian Knight said:

In truth considering you're wanting to play a Divine Champion, I'd honestly say make a suggestion for the removal of evil restriction from the class being your best option.

The only problem with that is the abilities gained by the standard Champion of Torm (here repurposed as a general Divine Champion PrC) being fairly strongly focused on a good alignment. An evil divine champion gaining lay on hands and Smite Evil, while not universally inapplicable, doesn't make a great deal of sense in the vast majority of cases. While Lay on Hands could be changed as it is script-based to, for instance, harm instead of heal for an evil champion, Smite Evil is hardcoded, so to instead give evil champions Smite Good would require fundamental class changes and thus a custom hak.

[mandene]

I think we should wait for what the OP thinks of the DM's comment about Blackguard class, before we start throwing out new ideas.

[Razgriz]

This is related to what Syd's Blue Sky said about intentions and actions. Yes, the elf might be summoning fiends to battle drow and other monsters and protect his people. Thus his intentions are good. However, the summoning of fiends itself is an evil act and also illegal in Cormyr so his actions are definitely not good.

I can easily see how these "Champions" would have to neglect using some of the blackguard class perks or risk casuing a major crisis with the authorities, other elves and factions.

[goldenhearts]

On a unrelated note, I'd really like to see the Fellowship of the forgotten flower paladins be allowed for Elves. If I remember the name right.

[Munroe]

Note that by no means am I saying that there's no such thing as an elven blackguard. I'm saying there's no such thing as an elven blackguard that serves the Seldarine, since the Seldarine aren't evil. A blackguard would serve whatever evil outsider it makes the pact with, or a greater evil power that evil outsider represents.

Likewise it is possible that there are elven paladins, but they would be Lawful Good paladins that would not serve the Seldarine. Note that in 3e Forgotten Realms the ONLY Chaotic Good deity with paladins is Sune, whose paladins must still be Lawful Good. Not only are paladins or Corellon Larethian rare in 3e Forgotten Realms, they don't exist. In the 2e Realms there may have been such a thing, they might even still be mentioned in the historical record, but the world changed in many ways since the Time of Troubles.

There is a small region-specific ancestral order made-up of dwarven and human allies mentioned in Champions of Valor that serve both Moradin and Selune. Even in that order the paladins of the order would be paladins of Moradin, not paladins of Selune.

[erratic1]

Uh, The Fellowship of the Forgotten Flower most certainly does exsist. It's an order dedicated to the recovery of lost Elven relics from abandoned Elven realms. (Cormyr most certainly would fall into that.) Those in the Fellowship are Elven Warriors and Paladins of Corellion. This is relevent in 3.0, 3.5 and even *spits* 4.0

I know this as I was going to actually make one for here and did my homework.

[Munroe]

Aug 9, 2015 19:50:30 GMT -5 erratic1 said:

Uh, The Fellowship of the Forgotten Flower most certainly does exsist. It's an order dedicated to the recovery of lost Elven relics from abandoned Elven realms. (Cormyr most certainly would fall into that.) Those in the Fellowship are Elven Warriors and Paladins of Corellion. This is relevent in 3.0, 3.5 and even *spits* 4.0

I know this as I was going to actually make one for here and did my homework.

The only source I've seen for the Fellowship of the Forgotten Flower was for 2e (Demihuman Deities, published in 1998).

There are no 3.x sources for paladins of Corellon Larethian that I've come across. The only CG deity allowed paladins on FRC is Sune.

There is a thread in the Lore of the Lands section from 2009 where it is discussed previously: Lore of the Lands: Fellowship of the Forgotten Flower
The same conclusion is reached, however. The Seldarine don't have paladins in 3.x and paladins of elven deities are not available on FRC.

While the Order of the Forgotten Flower might possibly still exist in the Realms as an elven organization of relic hunters, it is not available as an elven paladin order.

[lucid]

Could do any drow god. Puts you deeeeep in the traitor role, though. That's a hell of a path, with only one end. But your powers and general attitude could easily pass as a Black Arrow. As long as you don't call any demons where people can see.

[Munroe]

Aug 9, 2015 23:07:08 GMT -5 lucid said:

Could do any drow god. Puts you deeeeep in the traitor role, though. That's a hell of a path, with only one end.

Vhaeraun and Selvetarm died in 1375 DR. Eilistraee's church absorbed the church of Vhaeraun and Lolth's church absorbed the church of Selvetarm. This is canon for FRC, as has been posted elsewhere on the forums.

Kiaransalee was erased from history in 1377 DR. Devoid of worshipers, she faded into nothingness. There is no record of her, even in the minds of her former worshipers. She effectively never existed as a known entity. This is canon for FRC, as has been posted elsewhere on the forums.

Ghaunadaur has Lolth attempt to kill him -this year-, 1379 DR. The attempt fails because Ghaunadaur is a far more ancient and powerful entity than Lolth suspected. He removes his domain from the Demonweb Pits and relocates to the Deep Caverns.

Eilistraee is Chaotic Good, so isn't a suitable candidate for blackguard patron.

Lolth is still around, of course. Technically Ghaunadaur is still around too, he's just not on good terms with Lolth.

[Razgriz]

I think Elistraee dies this year, not sure.

[erratic1]

Aug 9, 2015 22:44:56 GMT -5 Munroe said:

Aug 9, 2015 19:50:30 GMT -5 erratic1 said:

Uh, The Fellowship of the Forgotten Flower most certainly does exsist. It's an order dedicated to the recovery of lost Elven relics from abandoned Elven realms. (Cormyr most certainly would fall into that.) Those in the Fellowship are Elven Warriors and Paladins of Corellion. This is relevent in 3.0, 3.5 and even *spits* 4.0

I know this as I was going to actually make one for here and did my homework.

The only source I've seen for the Fellowship of the Forgotten Flower was for 2e (Demihuman Deities, published in 1998).

There are no 3.x sources for paladins of Corellon Larethian that I've come across. The only CG deity allowed paladins on FRC is Sune.

There is a thread in the Lore of the Lands section from 2009 where it is discussed previously: Lore of the Lands: Fellowship of the Forgotten Flower
The same conclusion is reached, however. The Seldarine don't have paladins in 3.x and paladins of elven deities are not available on FRC.

While the Order of the Forgotten Flower might possibly still exist in the Realms as an elven organization of relic hunters, it is not available as an elven paladin order.

Hrmm, okay fair enough, what about Vandria Gilmadrith?

[bloodalchemist]

She isnt listed in any of the forum stuff on gods, domains, lore, etc. It took me a bit to even find her source material. I would guess like all fringe gods/demons/devils, you would need to make an application to the staff to be allowed to play a worshipper who recieves spells.

[Viridian Knight]

Aug 10, 2015 4:37:38 GMT -5 erratic1 said:

Aug 9, 2015 22:44:56 GMT -5 Munroe said:

The only source I've seen for the Fellowship of the Forgotten Flower was for 2e (Demihuman Deities, published in 1998).

There are no 3.x sources for paladins of Corellon Larethian that I've come across. The only CG deity allowed paladins on FRC is Sune.

There is a thread in the Lore of the Lands section from 2009 where it is discussed previously: Lore of the Lands: Fellowship of the Forgotten Flower
The same conclusion is reached, however. The Seldarine don't have paladins in 3.x and paladins of elven deities are not available on FRC.

While the Order of the Forgotten Flower might possibly still exist in the Realms as an elven organization of relic hunters, it is not available as an elven paladin order.

Hrmm, okay fair enough, what about Vandria Gilmadrith?

Eww yuck.  

She was essentially a god thrown into races of the wild to satisfy peoples wish to see elven paladins by essentially making a mash up of Red Knight, Helm and Tyr? (Something like that) as an elven god to fit the requirement of paladin rather then make an exception for one of the elven gods that make more sense.  I believe she's more accepted in the Greyhawk Tel'Seldarine then the Forgotten Realm one due to the way they tried to incorporate her as always existing.  I'm unsure how the DM team treat her, but I'm rather hopeful that even though she "exists" in the multiverse her presence isn't really known by the elves on Toril.

On a side note Races of the Wild itself while providing alot of interesting information should be taken with a grain of salt as it isn't an FR source book, rather it's a generic D&D source book.  Alot of the stuff on elves in the lore section of the forums I glanced over made me cringe as iircly alot of it was generic source book info that doesn't match up with FR.

Aug 10, 2015 4:48:38 GMT -5 bloodalchemist said:

She isnt listed in any of the forum stuff on gods, domains, lore, etc. It took me a bit to even find her source material. I would guess like all fringe gods/demons/devils, you would need to make an application to the staff to be allowed to play a worshipper who recieves spells.

You ninja'd me, but see above.

[Munroe]

Aug 10, 2015 4:37:38 GMT -5 erratic1 said:

Aug 9, 2015 22:44:56 GMT -5 Munroe said:

The only source I've seen for the Fellowship of the Forgotten Flower was for 2e (Demihuman Deities, published in 1998).

There are no 3.x sources for paladins of Corellon Larethian that I've come across. The only CG deity allowed paladins on FRC is Sune.

There is a thread in the Lore of the Lands section from 2009 where it is discussed previously: Lore of the Lands: Fellowship of the Forgotten Flower
The same conclusion is reached, however. The Seldarine don't have paladins in 3.x and paladins of elven deities are not available on FRC.

While the Order of the Forgotten Flower might possibly still exist in the Realms as an elven organization of relic hunters, it is not available as an elven paladin order.

Hrmm, okay fair enough, what about Vandria Gilmadrith?

As they already pointed out correctly, she's not a Forgotten Realms deity.

[erratic1]

Alright, thanks. Finally...!! What about the reference to Paladins of Corellion in the Hero Builders Guidebook 3.0 - it goes into detail about what they train to hunt - specifically demons/devils/fiends, Orc or Drow. It also gives advice on what skills and abilities are useful to making an Elven Paladin.

[Munroe]

Aug 10, 2015 6:20:59 GMT -5 erratic1 said:

Alright, thanks. Finally...!! What about the reference to Paladins of Corellion in the Hero Builders Guidebook 3.0 - it goes into detail about what they train to hunt - specifically demons/devils/fiends, Orc or Drow. It also gives advice on what skills and abilities are useful to making an Elven Paladin.

Corellon Larethian is the primary elven deity in both Greyhawk and Forgotten Realms. That doesn't mean he is identical in both.

Hero Builder's Guidebook is another of those books that isn't specific to Forgotten Realms. Mention of Corellon having paladins in that book would not apply to Forgotten Realms.

For him to have paladins in the 3.x Realms, the book cited would need to both be 3.x and Forgotten Realms-specific.

Additionally, the Hero Builder's Guidebook 3e (published in December 2000) was actually published prior to the Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting 3e (published at the end of May/beginning of June 2001) so the details of how paladins worked in Forgotten Realms for 3e wasn't even published yet. FRCS specifies which deities have paladins in the 3e Forgotten Realms.

Since 3e Forgotten Realms setting wasn't published until FRCS was published, it would supersede previous texts. (There may be some 3e adventures published in FR prior to 3e FRCS being finalized. It should supersede elements in them that are contradictory.)

[appleseedy]

yeah really just a query about blackguards, thanks for the replies. if i was going to make an elf i would want to be aprt of the seldarine community so human gods/outsiders aren't going to work for me.

[lucid]

Out of curiosity, could an Unseelie Fey bond a Black guard? Not sure if they count as evil outsiders in this context but that shoe fits well.

[Munroe]

Aug 10, 2015 8:10:03 GMT -5 appleseedy said:

yeah really just a query about blackguards, thanks for the replies. if i was going to make an elf i would want to be aprt of the seldarine community so human gods/outsiders aren't going to work for me.

Yeah, thread got hijacked a bit from that initial inquiry, but the subject was broad enough it was sort of within the subject title. :-)

Aug 10, 2015 9:36:52 GMT -5 lucid said:

Out of curiosity, could an Unseelie Fey bond a Black guard? Not sure if they count as evil outsiders in this context but that shoe fits well.

Fey are their own creature type, so wouldn't be outsiders for purposes of the class requirement. Fey found on other planes would be fey with the extraplanar subtype rather than outsiders. Fey, whether Seelie or Unseelie, are far less likely to take on free roaming mortal servants anyway. Unseelie might be a bit more likely than Seelie fey, but they're both pretty fickle.

It's actually kind of weird that the Plane of Faerie, for which Faerûn is named, isn't directly connected to the standard FR cosmology in 3.x.

[erratic1]

Aug 10, 2015 6:49:01 GMT -5 Munroe said:

Aug 10, 2015 6:20:59 GMT -5 erratic1 said:

Alright, thanks. Finally...!! What about the reference to Paladins of Corellion in the Hero Builders Guidebook 3.0 - it goes into detail about what they train to hunt - specifically demons/devils/fiends, Orc or Drow. It also gives advice on what skills and abilities are useful to making an Elven Paladin.

Corellon Larethian is the primary elven deity in both Greyhawk and Forgotten Realms. That doesn't mean he is identical in both.

Hero Builder's Guidebook is another of those books that isn't specific to Forgotten Realms. Mention of Corellon having paladins in that book would not apply to Forgotten Realms.

For him to have paladins in the 3.x Realms, the book cited would need to both be 3.x and Forgotten Realms-specific.

Additionally, the Hero Builder's Guidebook 3e (published in December 2000) was actually published prior to the Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting 3e (published at the end of May/beginning of June 2001) so the details of how paladins worked in Forgotten Realms for 3e wasn't even published yet. FRCS specifies which deities have paladins in the 3e Forgotten Realms.

Since 3e Forgotten Realms setting wasn't published until FRCS was published, it would supersede previous texts. (There may be some 3e adventures published in FR prior to 3e FRCS being finalized. It should supersede elements in them that are contradictory.)

Thanks DM Munroe, I appreciate you taking the time to answer these questions for me.