RP: NWN mechanics vs Canon RP

[Lady Frost]

Before I get started, I want to say that this is my opinion and one that I feel is very subjective. There are many grey areas and even a difference between IG situations, and forums RP, even the speed of combat and indepthness of the RP can have an effect. It's something that many people may completely overlook, and even for those that try to make an effort, it is -very- difficult to always be consistent.

Something I appear to be "relatively sensitive to" is the unrealistic use of NWN mechanics (specifically spells - more specifically healing - most specifically raising dead) in RP, specifically novel-like RP on the forums. Some of this may revolve around the spell having additional properties that aren't represented in-game, like Mordenkainen's Disjunction; or it may be that it's something simply uncommon, like free healing and raising the dead.

To me, a dungeon is a vague, exaggerated tale that you get to do crazy things in for the sake of player fun and enjoyment, not a detailed story. No novel contains an adventure where 5 people die a combined 7 times and they just pull scrolls out of their pockets to bring them back to life. That story would be insane. But its part of the game and how it's played. When you come back to town, to me, it's best to describe the events more vaguely as if they weren't actual deaths and more like 'situational failures' that took extra effort to recover from.

So, when I see this same general vagueness applied to detailed RP situations, like "raising a dead commoner" it makes me twitch. There are leaders and friends of -very- powerful people, even champions of deities themselves that die and are never raised. Why would a commoner ever be raised? ((See first paragraph, now))

I ask players to think about what actually makes sense in the face of slow, detailed RP. Having your PC walk about and raise 6 random npc's, or 1 random npc, or even 1 npc that isn't a dear friend without compensation just doesn't make sense to me in the face of lore. The same goes for casting disjunction like it's a fun firework and other such unrealistic things simply because IG it doesn't cost anything and we have massive amounts of unused spells.

And before you say "others RP doesn't affect me", I will say it does. If I went to great lengths to RP assassinating someone(s) to have a some random PC come by and cast Raise simply because they can is directly affecting RP with the unrealistic use of mechanics.

Anyways, I'd like to hear others thoughts and leave it open to be discussed.

[Syd's Blue Sky]

I've always liked to break this into three distinct categories.

In Game

I cast ground effect Disjunction on myself every single day without a second thought. Why? It's the only way I can strip Shadow Shield and Ethereal Visage, two spells with REALLY annoying visual effects, without removing all my other buffs. If someone tries to explain to Card IC that that spell actually does what it does in PnP he'll probably cast it on them, tell them they're a moron in no uncertain phrasing and then tell them to stop drinking rum at breakfast.

Do I know what this stuff does/requires in PnP? You bet I do! Do I care? Not even a little! My view is that the in game is... well, gee, it's in a game! Suspension of disbelief covers these ruffles and more for me very nicely. Why? The hierarchy to me has always been In Game>Source, and that's how it shall remain. Of course this mean that if the day comes where the DM team wants to make in game match source more accurately I will adapt without difficulty.

Forum RP

In this case I treat things differently. One personal example is the extreme effort Card is putting into solving the gorgon issue in the Tun. Yeah, I can log on with my stack of 30 Stone to Flesh scrolls and my fancy summons and this and that and just blow them to shreds without a second thought. But does that make sense to me as a story on the forum? Not really, no. That story might not be insane, but it would sure as hell be a crappy story.

DM Events

In this case it's whatever the DM wants to do. Strictly to the NWN in game wording? Awesome! Strictly by the PHB wording? Sweet! Something in the middle? Rad, Bro!

[marredwolf]

the general philosophy of death is off in any d&d campaign. Yes people do die that could have been raised, even those important ones that do die. i dont know if they are been hit with some sort of incinerating spell or for whatever reason they cant be raised. but its strange to see commoners being raised and not the hero of a whole city, who instead becomes a martyr. The issue is deeper than just this. Imagine, if you could, that in real life you knew of an afterlife, and that you were 1000% sure that an afterlife exists and that your soul, your being is not destroyed but goes somwhere, in d&d this would be common but i cant say for sure it happens every time. But what does this new found knowledge give you? that is for each individual to decide. if you knew there was an afterlife, you would behave a certain way (like being religious as opposed to not) add to that the effect of raise dead, if this was possible in the real world you would have some intense daredevils out there, jumping off cliffs to their death knowing they could easily be raised. As per the rules you are supposed to take death as a heavy hit, but if this was a real thing, people would be trying some crazy stuff, even more crazy than what they're willing to do now, because they know that they will simply be raised back from the dead or that their soul would continue to live on. The solution? make a means of death, or certain means of death, unable to be raised, or the soul unable to reach an afterlife. this is of course not in agreement with the server rules. im talking about permadeath. the general thought of death in d%d and frc does not and cannot make sense, but it must be used because that is the only way to make the game work without killing people off all the time. the rules as they stand are great, they dont make sense, but they are great in as much as they make the game playable without the frustration of real death.

[TrueBlueOriginal]

Some characters that know and believe about the afterlife might be more willing to come back. Evil characters that get Raised are actually escaping potential torment for another chance at going somewhere else later. (Even if they don't realize it once they're revived.) You know your afterlife is bad when you consider bargaining with devils on the Fugue Plane to go to Hell rather than go to your god's afterlife.

Other characters, particularly devoutly religious characters, might choose to come back to life rather than go on to their afterlife because they feel that they're doing their god's will on the Material Plane. Devout characters already in their god's afterlife that are Resurrected (it works up to 10 years per caster level after death!) might feel that they're being called back for good reason, and it's time to do some work among the living again. That's kind of how my own characters feel when they get Raised and Resurrected. Sure, Kira could go dwell with Sharess in Rapture (Sharess's domain), but as Sharess's servant, she's got work and play to be had in Cormyr still. And Samantha? She's a champion of the Moonmaiden, and she can probably aid Selûne in the War of Light and Darkness better when she's got a pulse. The Gates of the Moon are lovely, but it's not time to relax yet.

I feel bad for characters that worship Tempus, Garagos, Red Knight, Uthgar, and Valkur. Their afterlife is called Warrior's Rest, but it's actually eternal war where they can never die, but just switch sides when killed. I'm sure some of them are eager for the break that living again brings. Yes, for all Tempus and Garagos don't get along, they're both playing Toy Soldiers forever with their petitioners in the world hereafter.

[docofmadness]

a few i have that can be summed up as (death does not what me). In fanasty setting, like forgotten realmns, the gods often return their faithful servants to life to continue works in their names. As no mortal can know the plans of gods or what fate has in their future. heros, anit-heros, and even reluctant heros maybe turned away for the gates of paraise without any idea why. this is a common view of respawning i am sure. but, even raise dead or resurrected still is done with a gods power and permission. i have even asked not to be raised by clerics of faiths whoms deities where not in alingment with my chars honorbound and falcum. this all falls back on individaul opinions and rp sytles.

so long as we all have fun can we not get along. answer hell no

[StabbingNirvana]

About resurrecting commoners, I don't think I've ever seen someone just randomly go and resurrect someone that died of natural causes. But I have seen and I have taken part in resurrecting commoners that have been killed by unnatural reason or have been "taken before their time" so to say. An example being a dragon attacking Greatgaunt and killing Waric. I dont see anything wrong with it and view it as a legit action to take within the bounds of both, RP and mechanic.

[Fenix]

Feb 6, 2015 2:03:19 GMT -5 TrueBlueOriginal said:

Some characters that know and believe about the afterlife might be more willing to come back. Evil characters that get Raised are actually escaping potential torment for another chance at going somewhere else later. (Even if they don't realize it once they're revived.) You know your afterlife is bad when you consider bargaining with devils on the Fugue Plane to go to Hell rather than go to your god's afterlife.

Other characters, particularly devoutly religious characters, might choose to come back to life rather than go on to their afterlife because they feel that they're doing their god's will on the Material Plane. Devout characters already in their god's afterlife that are Resurrected (it works up to 10 years per caster level after death!) might feel that they're being called back for good reason, and it's time to do some work among the living again. That's kind of how my own characters feel when they get Raised and Resurrected. Sure, Kira could go dwell with Sharess in Rapture (Sharess's domain), but as Sharess's servant, she's got work and play to be had in Cormyr still. And Samantha? She's a champion of the Moonmaiden, and she can probably aid Selûne in the War of Light and Darkness better when she's got a pulse. The Gates of the Moon are lovely, but it's not time to relax yet.

I feel bad for characters that worship Tempus, Garagos, Red Knight, Uthgar, and Valkur. Their afterlife is called Warrior's Rest, but it's actually eternal war where they can never die, but just switch sides when killed. I'm sure some of them are eager for the break that living again brings. Yes, for all Tempus and Garagos don't get along, they're both playing Toy Soldiers forever with their petitioners in the world hereafter.

Thats probably some kind of INTENSE rts.

[Lady Frost]

Feb 6, 2015 13:56:25 GMT -5 StabbingNirvana said:

About resurrecting commoners, I don't think I've ever seen someone just randomly go and resurrect someone that died of natural causes. But I have seen and I have taken part in resurrecting commoners that have been killed by unnatural reason or have been "taken before their time" so to say. An example being a dragon attacking Greatgaunt and killing Waric. I dont see anything wrong with it and view it as a legit action to take within the bounds of both, RP and mechanic.

This is where I disagree. To me, that's just not how it works in Forgotten Realms. For example, from the FRCS:
__
The degree to which a local cleric may make her healing spells available to adventurers in the town varies greatly with the tenets of her faith, the demands of the town, and her own best judgment. Clerics obviously prefer to aid fellow followers of their patron deity, and if healing resources are limited, the faithful will be aided before people devoted to other gods. Naturally, the followers of deities antithetical to the cleric’s own deity are extremely unlikely to be helped in any circumstances.

Same Patron Deity:
If the character or characters requiring healing follow the same patron deity as the local cleric, they stand the best chance of receiving help.

Characters of the same faith brought before the cleric in a dying state (hit points between 0 and -10) will be stabilized, often without any expectation of compensation. Any person who is not dying is not likely to find free healing. After all, people heal with time, and most clerics prefer to retain their spell power rather than give it away.

Adventurers can purchase routine healing spells at the normal prices for purchasing spellcasting. Some clerics may be moved to heal a follower of the same faith at no cost, but only if it is clearly an immediate need of the faith to get the injured person back into top form as soon as possible.

Disease, level loss, blindness, or other conditions besides hit point loss are more complicated. The adventurer may be healed at no cost if he has served his faith well. Otherwise, he might be healed in exchange for a special donation (20% to 50% of the normal spellcasting cost) or a special service for the temple.

Raising or resurrecting the dead is never undertaken lightly. In general, the friends of a dead character should expect to pay the normal spell casting cost. In some very rare instances, a dead character might be raised by clerics of his own faith regardless of whether he or his comrades can meet the spell casting cost. This only happens when the deceased has been an exemplary servant of the faith, and the cleric in question has cause to believe that it is absolutely imperative to the faith to restore the dead character to life. Even then, the raised character might be charged with a geas/quest to serve the faith in a specific task to justify the effort and expense of his resurrection.

Allied Patron Deity:
A local cleric devoted to a deity allied to the adventurer’s patron deity, or a local cleric who simply wishes to support like-minded adventurers who advanced his own cause by advancing theirs, is the next best thing to a cleric of a hero’s own faith. Again, characters of allied faith who arrive in a dying state will be stabilized, often without any expectation of compensation. Adventurers can purchase routine healing spells at the normal prices for purchasing spellcasting. Some allied clerics may heal an adventurer at a reduced cost (20% to 50% of the normal spellcasting cost), but only if it is clearly advantageous to get the adventurer back on his feet fast.

The adventurer may be healed of disease or other conditions for the normal spellcasting cost. Again, if it is clearly a good idea for the local cleric to aid the adventurer, he might be healed in exchange for a special donation (20% to 50% of the normal spellcasting cost) or a special service for the temple.

Neutral Patron Deity:
If the local cleric’s patron deity is not particularly friendly or hostile to the patron deities of the adventurers, the decision to aid them or not is much more mercenary and situational. Any good-aligned cleric is likely to stabilize a dying character brought before her unless that character is clearly an agent of evil. Other than that, any healing spells are available at the normal spellcasting costs, but only if the neutral cleric has reason to believe that aiding the adventurer in question won’t cause any harm or risk to followers of the cleric’s faith.
---

Random commoners being raised after an attack on a city, or really for much of any reason, especially for no cost, is unrealistic to me. Even clerics of the -same faith- usually require some sort of compensation and just because we can cast so many spells for free doesn't seem, to me, like a reason to act outside realistic actions for a person. Thousands of people probably die every day in the Forgotten Realms. The temples would nearly always have faithful people coming and going with injuries and to see free raises given to random people rather than those powers being used for faithful seems out of place. Again, this is only my opinion based on a greater sense of the setting than just the game.

[StabbingNirvana]

The way those excerpts are written leave room for deviation. "Most", "many", "likely" are key words from the excerpt. Our characters are the portion of the population that aren't exactly provided with robotic characteristics in how they deal with situations where as the druids in Greatgaunt and other NPCs would generally fall under those rules when not DM controlled. Those may be good guidelines on how to act but it by no means binds your character to that alone.

There's also a big difference in the frequency of groundbreaking situations encountered in PnP and NWN. While in PnP you're likely The only group of adventurers in a city or town walking around a populace doing their normal day duties whereas in NWN its more along the lines of entering a town and seeing people damaged from a recent adventure.

While NWN is based on PnP, using PnP as a means to appropriate RP in a game that is a completely different beast isn't exactly the best way to go about things.

[marredwolf]

there should be no fear of death in frc. the recent attack on the academy where a bunch of kids got killed would be easily fixed, with just one character (my pc could afford it easily). even more so to clerics that can freely cast raise dead or ressurection, it costs them nothing so why not do it out of the goodness of your hearts you damn triads. this is a very different state of mind that we in the real world have. we not only fear death, but we may even fear the afterlife. in frc one could follow a path that grants him a great afterlife or one that you could be raised over and over again until old age (if even that) or their god wills their death. rest assured many people would save their coin just to secure a life saving operation. a community would be very likely to secure the appropriate funds or the good will of the local cleric/druid/or whatever since everyone can use a raise dead scroll, and they are cheap. but death is done in this way for the sake of the game, the drama, the outrage, the reason for vindictive people and bloodthirsty revenge. this exists only to make the game better, it has to be this way or there would be little thought about someone being murdered or being a martyr for their cause. its an artificial tool. the fear of death is a huge driving force in the real world, and we are trying to make it seem the same way in a dnd world, but it really means nothing. if this was a permadeath server things would be different, more realistic, even if it was just a heavy penalty world (with, lets say a point of CON lost for every death, unless its a resurrection) death would be taken more seriously. im not advocating change, i dont want that and im sure many others agree. Im quite alright with playing in a fantasy world where death is only a bad headache.

[Pedantry INC]

Pen and Paper Raise dead:

Raise Dead
Conjuration (Healing)
Level: Clr 5
Components: V, S, M, DF
Casting Time: 1 minute
Range: Touch
Target: Dead creature touched
Duration: Instantaneous
Saving Throw: None; see text
Spell Resistance: Yes (harmless)

You restore life to a deceased creature. You can raise a creature that has been dead for no longer than one day per caster level. In addition, the subject’s soul must be free and willing to return. If the subject’s soul is not willing to return, the spell does not work; therefore, a subject that wants to return receives no saving throw.

Coming back from the dead is an ordeal. The subject of the spell loses one level (or 1 Hit Die) when it is raised, just as if it had lost a level or a Hit Die to an energy-draining creature. If the subject is 1st level, it loses 2 points of Constitution instead (if this would reduce its Con to 0 or less, it can’t be raised). This level/HD loss or Constitution loss cannot be repaired by any means. A character who died with spells prepared has a 50% chance of losing any given spell upon being raised, in addition to losing spells for losing a level. A spellcasting creature that doesn’t prepare spells (such as a sorcerer) has a 50% chance of losing any given unused spell slot as if it had been used to cast a spell, in addition to losing spell slots for losing a level.

A raised creature has a number of hit points equal to its current Hit Dice. Any ability scores damaged to 0 are raised to 1. Normal poison and normal disease are cured in the process of raising the subject, but magical diseases and curses are not undone. While the spell closes mortal wounds and repairs lethal damage of most kinds, the body of the creature to be raised must be whole. Otherwise, missing parts are still missing when the creature is brought back to life. None of the dead creature’s equipment or possessions are affected in any way by this spell.

A creature who has been turned into an undead creature or killed by a death effect can’t be raised by this spell. Constructs, elementals, outsiders, and undead creatures can’t be raised. The spell cannot bring back a creature that has died of old age.
Material Component: Diamonds worth a total of least 5,000 gp.

Maybe players would take it more seriously if we required diamonds to be used for raises to be cast? That's a few lesser diamonds per raise, oh my! ^_^ And level loss. Oooh, ouch. And that's for living!

True Resurrection
Conjuration (Healing)
Level: Clr 9
Casting Time: 10 minutes

This spell functions like raise dead, except that you can resurrect a creature that has been dead for as long as 10 years per caster level. This spell can even bring back creatures whose bodies have been destroyed, provided that you unambiguously identify the deceased in some fashion (reciting the deceased’s time and place of birth or death is the most common method).

Upon completion of the spell, the creature is immediately restored to full hit points, vigor, and health, with no loss of level (or Constitution points) or prepared spells.

You can revive someone killed by a death effect or someone who has been turned into an undead creature and then destroyed. This spell can also resurrect elementals or outsiders, but it can’t resurrect constructs or undead creatures.

Even true resurrection can’t restore to life a creature who has died of old age.

Material Component: sprinkle of holy water and diamonds worth a total of at least 25,000 gp.

Wow, 25k worth of -diamonds-? PFF. You can stay dead bro, or suck up your level loss. Those are MY diamonds.



Now, my characters take death very seriously. If the get raised, they suffer, for days, usually mentally. It's hard on them. That's how I represent the missing level drain. Emotional toil. The feeling of defeat. Knowing that if someone hadn't been there.... that would have been the end. Sure, eternal whatnot with whatever god is great, but -life- is better. Unless you're a nutcase. Suicide ftw right (if you're incredibly sick/mentally ill/etc, anyways). Also, being raised doesn't invalidate having died. Being murdered is still being murdered, regardless of someone picking you up off the floor or not. I've had PCs killed get so fearful of losing their lives again that they gave up adventuring and took up normal lives, never to be seen playerside on FRC thereafter.


The Academy could easily afford to raise every one of those students. It isn't beyond reason that Mirrir would pay for it herself. However, with respect to the setting, and respect to the plot and story, no. (Though if a DM had any o the families request it, such service would certainly be provided at the academies cost)

[bloodalchemist]

If you wanted hardcore loss, especially since you can buy most powerful stuff in merchants shops, you'd enable some death penalties i played with a few years ago. You lost ten percent total exp for respawn, and there was a custom script that would roll randomly to decide if you lost no gear, or 1-2 slots worth of items, and the 10-20% of gold you carried. You didnt lose stuff you didnt have equipped, but when you died a pack spawned beneath you with the items and gold you'd dropped, so those who killed you, or those who stumbled across your remains, if they reached your corpse efore your party got to it, or the reset wiped it, were in that.

Also level loss was enabled, so if the exp you lost would drop your level, down you went. Generally pvp was much more serious and required very intensive rp to justify, if you were even suspected by the staff of being a wanker, you were usually just banned on the spot. However, the servers rewards were also better to a certain degree, getting good loot and gold was very hard, even in epic levels, and a party of 4 was basically required beyond level 10 at all times. High risk, High reward. Heh, I remember when my paladin died and i lost a dm sword i had recieved, +3 that did 2d6 divine damage vs evils. I enjoyed it, but there were many times it was frustrating enough to take a break from the game.

Not saying it would work here, just giving you an idea of the sort of penalties some other places have had, and that they do curb certain behaviors when backed up with the thread of a ban for wankerism, either abusing the loot drops with pvp, or constant zerging through dungeons to recover it. Seperated the wheat from the chaff

[marredwolf]

Feb 7, 2015 20:50:14 GMT -5 Pedantry INC said:

The Academy could easily afford to raise every one of those students. It isn't beyond reason that Mirrir would pay for it herself. However, with respect to the setting, and respect to the plot and story, no. (Though if a DM had any o the families request it, such service would certainly be provided at the academies cost)

\
easily afford it you mean? AND all you would need is the conscent of the family of the poor child whos been killed in order to be raised. i just might guess the absolute answer of 'yes, please do it" at the risk of being called a metagamer. you are right tho, it is entirely for the plot and the setting.


there are groups of people who follow certain religions in the real world where they refuse medical treatment, even in the face of death. now they are far from being prominent, but the example does exist, thus making my absolute answer not completly absolute.

[appleseedy]

were not playing hardcore server, i think it is up to us as players to first of all obey the rules and second of all take pvp situations and npc reactions seriously.

[Trollfiend]

When I played all the time, I would always leave if I died and was raised three times. Hell, sometimes I'd bail out at my second raise. My PC would bow out after stating that he was ill equipped and he'd find something easier to do. I didn't care if it was a DM event, or DMs were present, or what the case was. Three times was my absolute limit and I no longer considered it fun or possible for me to continue it.

The rest of the group would be left to decide to continue without me or find passage back leaving it unfinished.

[...]

Feb 5, 2015 17:42:25 GMT -5 Lady Frost said:

Before I get started, I want to say that this is my opinion and one that I feel is very subjective. There are many grey areas and even a difference between IG situations, and forums RP, even the speed of combat and indepthness of the RP can have an effect. It's something that many people may completely overlook, and even for those that try to make an effort, it is -very- difficult to always be consistent.

Something I appear to be "relatively sensitive to" is the unrealistic use of NWN mechanics (specifically spells - more specifically healing - most specifically raising dead) in RP, specifically novel-like RP on the forums. Some of this may revolve around the spell having additional properties that aren't represented in-game, like Mordenkainen's Disjunction; or it may be that it's something simply uncommon, like free healing and raising the dead.

To me, a dungeon is a vague, exaggerated tale that you get to do crazy things in for the sake of player fun and enjoyment, not a detailed story. No novel contains an adventure where 5 people die a combined 7 times and they just pull scrolls out of their pockets to bring them back to life. That story would be insane. But its part of the game and how it's played. When you come back to town, to me, it's best to describe the events more vaguely as if they weren't actual deaths and more like 'situational failures' that took extra effort to recover from.

So, when I see this same general vagueness applied to detailed RP situations, like "raising a dead commoner" it makes me twitch. There are leaders and friends of -very- powerful people, even champions of deities themselves that die and are never raised. Why would a commoner ever be raised? ((See first paragraph, now))

I ask players to think about what actually makes sense in the face of slow, detailed RP. Having your PC walk about and raise 6 random npc's, or 1 random npc, or even 1 npc that isn't a dear friend without compensation just doesn't make sense to me in the face of lore. The same goes for casting disjunction like it's a fun firework and other such unrealistic things simply because IG it doesn't cost anything and we have massive amounts of unused spells.

And before you say "others RP doesn't affect me", I will say it does. If I went to great lengths to RP assassinating someone(s) to have a some random PC come by and cast Raise simply because they can is directly affecting RP with the unrealistic use of mechanics.

Anyways, I'd like to hear others thoughts and leave it open to be discussed.

This is just a bunch of personal opinions and of course I can't help but draw from my own experiences.

I like it when players roleplay their characters taking death seriously but I don't look down on any player for making their character brave/reckless to what could be described as a fault. Who am I to say that characters shouldn't laugh in the face of death? Sometimes my character will attempt to rob another and most of the time they won't pay up. 200 lions is more important to the character than his/her life, or maybe it's the principle of the thing? I don't know. I won't sit here and say that it's silly or bad roleplay to do that because I don't know the characters inter thoughts. However a few characters have paid up and that was also cool because I felt like the character had weighed up the options and put his/her life above the coin which is what I'd personally do in that kind of situation. In real life I'd just give up the coin, but then I'm not a big brave warrior.

Healing and raising the dead in PVP situations can act as a big undo button but what happened should be respected. I don't like perma death and wouldn't wish it on anyone's character. I like when once a character has been killed in PVP, they take it on board as something serious. It should have a big effect on the character and it should be something they don't want to have repeated. If two characters are feuding and one kills the other then the loser should raise back to life but then they should also give a little to the victor in whatever way is suitable for the situation. Maybe the loser now respects the victors position more, or backs off for a while. Otherwise death becomes pointless and a useless tool to influence other characters, when it really should be one of the most effective. I've seen some great examples where players have done this and it's awesome.

What's probably more hardcore a "punishment" on this server than death is incarceration. I use quote marks because of course you don't have to look at it as a punishment, being incarcerated can be just another step in the roleplay, but let's face it, it can be a dull experience. If a (Usually chaotic) character gets tossed into a jail or becomes wanted then that's a much bigger impact on the character than simply being killed. If a character dies, they just respawn. If a character goes to jail then they might be limited to a cell for weeks, even longer? Becoming wanted is going to be more common for chaotic characters because it's the chaotic characters that are more prone to breaking the law. It's not necessarily anything to do with good/evil. Fiona, for example. Ironically it might be better for your character to simply die than allow themselves to be captured. Respawn and jump right back into the action or sit in a jail for days/weeks/however long?

As a bandit, my character kills merchants and travelers on the road and I post about that on the forum. It could be easy for someone to just respond to every post I make with "My cleric walks by and raises them back to life". They hasn't happened and that's awesome. But if my character were to kill someone in a city then there's more of an argument to be made for raising them back, especially if they're a guard.. I guess.

I agree with you Frost. It's nice when people put "Canon RP" before "NWN mechanics". As long as we respect each others roleplay and use good sense. Then it's all good as far as I'm concerned. 

[marredwolf]

the only point i was making is that in a real situation, raising the dead would be a common thing, because it is very easy to do. the only reason we kill commoners and let them be killed and buried is because it furthers the storyline, nothing more than that. i dont know about mechanics and canon. these terms dont mean much to me. but as a realist it makes no sense. raise them back because you can do it for free, and maybe you get some kind of information out of them. having dead npcs be dead is, to me, a very OOC thing to do. it provides what is needed to keep the plot rolling but it is far from being reality in this fantasy world, if you can understand that. again, i challenge you to think of this in a real life scenario. If you knew there was in fact an afterlife, without any doubt, you would behave very differently than you do now. add on the fact that after a decade i can still raise you from the dead and then you have a huge problem. how much money would you be willing to spend in order to keep yourself alive? it would be an industry of insurance, a true fact. this is an OOC tool used to make the fantasy world that we play in more believable. can you see the catch? a fantasy world trying to emulate the real world. and it fails because it has to fail. otherwise no one would fear death, the great motivator. you can call it roleplay, but its simply a trick meant to keep your illusions working. death has no teeth in d&d, just try and compare it to the real world.

[Pedantry INC]

The thing is, Marredwolf, in the -canon source- it is -not- an easy thing to do.

NWN makes it seem easy, but it's not.

NPC characters are rarely high enough level to offer raise dead. Adventurer characters are few and far between in source. Read any FR novel and you will not see people being raised from the dead.

For example: In war of the spider queen everyone was amazed and shocked to find out that Quenthel Baenre, second daughter of matron mother Banere, the biggest drow noble house in mezenboranzan, had been sent back from the dead by the goddess 10 years after she died: This powerful individual was not raised - it took 10 years for her to be sent back for divine purposes by the goddess herself. (maybe a bad example but c'mon.)

In the Cormyr Novels King Azoun IV is killed in his battle with the devil dragon. He was not raised.

The king of mithral hall was not raised. (pretty sure he was killed in the invasion, could be wrong)

In the dracorage novels, lots of people die.

In source, a priest can memorize spells once per day. In NWN we get to do it every 40 minutes.

In source, being above level 10 is incredible. Being over level 21 means you're basically on your way to being as powerful as the gods themselves.

In source there is not enough magic to go around. That's just a fact. In a city the size of valkur's roar there might be two or three priests that can cast raise dead. And they would need the resources to manage. A diamond, or diamonds worth 5,000gp.

Farmers in source make about 1 gp a month income. Professionals can make more of course, but not by that much. 100gp a month is pretty amazing even for specialized folks.


NWN makes it easy. Canon however, is a rough world where death is serious and magic is limited by those that don't personally have some lucky hook into someone extraordinary.

[Ivarcles]

Feb 16, 2015 0:49:37 GMT -5 Pedantry INC said:

In source, being above level 10 is incredible. Being over level 21 means you're basically on your way to being as powerful as the gods themselves.

That being the case, the village of Greatgaunt should have had it's own pantheon long ago. The place is crawling with epics nearly all day every day. How canon is that? If FRC was really supposed to be canon, levels would have been capped at eight or ten like it is on some servers with further advancement by DM permission only. I mean what's a high level good character who has the money and means supposed to do when an innocent person lies dead in front of him or her? Standing around and doing nothing usually doesn't make a lot of RP sense. If a good aligned cleric or paladin were to do that, you can just imagine all the chickenwing that evils would be spouting. It kind of is what it is and if people want to play it closer to canon, that's fine. But I don't think it should be a problem for people to play the server as it actually is, either.

[Lady Frost]

In the first post I said that all situations are not the same, and that it's not even clear cut between when you're in one situation or the next. Different parts of the game make more or less sense to behave in a canon-like manner. Adventuring and most game combat rarely falls into this type of situation, unless there is some deep meaning to it, like a plot where the good and evil finally come face to face to battle for the end of the plot. Combat in NWN isn't really canon-like to begin with, raise is just another way to continue for most people and I understand that. It is for me too, most of the time. However, there are other times, specifically forums-rp or slow novel-like RP in game where using all these strange and fancy things all over the place simply doesn't make a lot of sense. Sure you can cast 15 raises, rest and cast 15 more, then pull out 25 scrolls and keep going but that's completely ridiculous to consider as canon-like RP for Forgotten Realms.

Again, my point wasn't to ever tell people to play like I do; I don't think that was anyone's point or attempt. What it -is- is my attempt to show people how I do something in a hope that someone says "Hey! That makes sense! I've been enlightened!". I've done lots of stupid things over the years. Some people correct me, some people help me, sometimes I have to figure it out on my own. To this day I love seeign how people RP and the reasons they do things so I can keep altering my own style to be better.

Why didn't they cap it at 10? Because leveling is fun. People like xp and gold and leveling is one of the points of the game. However, it then means players have to be able to balance their 20+ PC with what's reasonable for canon-like RP. To me, just because you can level past what legendary canon characters levels are, doesn't mean you get to be bigger and badder than them so you have to then consider what they can do and what makes sense for you to do. Zoe can cast gate a lot of times. However, if you added that to a novel people would just groan. "You mean this priestess walked into Suzail and opened 7 gates, summoned a red dragon, then warded herself with 20 regenerations? On top of being able to probably walk across 3 epic electrical traps and having enough gold to buy half the nobles in the city?" -LAME STORY-

[Andros]

I have a personal rule when it comes to PC power and that is to divide a PC's level by 2 to get the "actual" level if that pc where to be exported to a pnp setting

I don't think PCs are as powerful canonically as their are in game for videogame reasons, there just isn't enough adventure that gives appropriate xp in the cormyr setting to get past level 15 without the DM getting creative, same for Epic levels; epic levels don't just follow from 20 you normally need an epic hook to actually get you going into en EPIC adventure against epic enemies and those more regularly involve esoteric things like astral plane traveling and world saving campaigns, you don't just slaughter more orcs until you hit 21. So keeping that in mind you can see how raising the dead is harder since level 18 clerics (when they gain access to raise dead if you divide their level by 2) are much rarer just in the server alone. I play most of my characters levels based on this so my level 12 cleric doesn't acts like he can go full Moses and create miracles since he is (on my view) 6, when my characters start to hit the high teens that's when they start to feel more powerful in their abilities and so on but they will never compare to Elminster ot Khelben or whathave you.

And one thing everyone always seems to forget about raising commoners is that well, they are commoners their lives suck, they spend the day toiling in whatever job they have for 12-16 hours 6-7 days a week, so when they die unless he was evil I think it very likely almost none of them wants to be raised to begin with.

[Razgriz]

Feb 16, 2015 9:03:26 GMT -5 Andros said:

I have a personal rule when it comes to PC power and that is to divide a PC's level by 2 to get the "actual" level if that pc where to be exported to a pnp setting

I don't think PCs are as powerful canonically as their are in game for videogame reasons, there just isn't enough adventure that gives appropriate xp in the cormyr setting to get past level 15 without the DM getting creative, same for Epic levels; epic levels don't just follow from 20 you normally need an epic hook to actually get you going into en EPIC adventure against epic enemies and those more regularly involve esoteric things like astral plane traveling and world saving campaigns, you don't just slaughter more orcs until you hit 21. So keeping that in mind you can see how raising the dead is harder since level 18 clerics (when they gain access to raise dead if you divide their level by 2) are much rarer just in the server alone. I play most of my characters levels based on this so my level 12 cleric doesn't acts like he can go full Moses and create miracles since he is (on my view) 6, when my characters start to hit the high teens that's when they start to feel more powerful in their abilities and so on but they will never compare to Elminster ot Khelben or whathave you.

And one thing everyone always seems to forget about raising commoners is that well, they are commoners their lives suck, they spend the day toiling in whatever job they have for 12-16 hours 6-7 days a week, so when they die unless he was evil I think it very likely almost none of them wants to be raised to begin with.

Interesting way of seeing things, I like it.

[marredwolf]

" I mean what's a high level good character who has the money and means supposed to do when an innocent person lies dead in front of him or her? Standing around and doing nothing usually doesn't make a lot of RP sense" [quote

it doesnt make any rp sense, like you said. but we need to accept this as an ooc tool to move the plot forward.

i dont get how the King of Cormyr wasnt raised. I did play dnd back in the day and from what i understand, raising someone from the dead is very easy, its just not done because you need that to have a good story. you can say "well in this novel this guy wasnt raised, and in that one the high priest was also not raised, and so therefore it is a hard thing to do" but the real reason they werent raised was to further the plot. could they have been raised? as far as i can remember the answer is yes, and quite easily done. this is even more so in nwn.

you are asking me to ignore how easy it is to raise someone, and also to ignore what a good PC would do in that situation had he the means, the RP that should be happening. its necessary, i get that, but please dont tell me that its somehow more realistic when its clearly the case that its the opposite.

[bloodalchemist]

Honestly, I have to say, +1 to marredwolf for the above. This sums up one of the biggest flaws in forgotten realms to me. It is not a low magic setting, there are dozens of epic level wizards running amok through the place, and thats just npcs. You get a lot of plot breaking immersion breaking stuff like this going on when you have magic so easily accessed, it just leads to massive plotholes abounding. Not much of a fan of the novels either, cause the writers all pretty much have to start it off with well, either the cleric is gonna die that can handle raising people, or someone just wasnt around to take care of it, because plot.

I dont mind playing in lighter, higher magic settings. But dont expect me to try and pretend death matters. Its something mild that you get over, just like a summer cold. Annoying, you might stay inside a few days, but give it a bit of time and you're right as rain. I prefer true low magic settings, where even wizards and other spellcasters struggle to pull off some of the stuff they do with comical ease in forgotten realms. A good example being like in numenera, one of the highest powers a mage in that game can achieve is to manipulate the weather, and there is no thing as a get out of death free ability. Having a constant get out of death free card makes death a joke, and no amount of, but what ifs, canmake up forthe fact that death is circumvented by a what...level 4 spell? Literally a spell out of the bottom half of that spellcasters power curve. lel.

[StabbingNirvana]

Who knows what type of great RP could be had by raising someone that died. A while back when I first made Vel, Hol and Vel had a situation where they heard a baby crying and nearby was the corpse of what ended up being the father. In an attempt to raise the dead guy, we had to discover several facts regarding the father. I think the name and some personal belonging of his or something like that. It took a while and it brought on RP situations that still arise every here and then that are tied back to that event.

Overall, the abilities are there and there's people willing to take the plunge into doing what they think is right with those abilities. Raising someone is no different than flinging out implodes to your hearts consent. If raises and resurrections start being lame RP, then so do insta-heals. And if those spells are lame, then eventually other magic abilities could start getting chained together, designating all magic (with the exception of burning hands, which is NEVER lame) to being lame.

[Lady Frost]

Forgotten Realms raise dead isn't like NWN raise dead. The spells -- because there are two versions -- don't heal that well. Sure they return life but if you died to losing a leg, you still are missing a leg. Each version has its benefits and drawbacks, too. The conjuration one being the most likely to be used requires 5,000g worth of diamonds (which is a lot in canon) and both versions not working on things that were killed by death effects and both leaving the character permanently weaker, either through level or CON. As well, when you get into canon there are lots of exceptions from unique spells, items, and abilities that affect certain things, like how Azoun couldn't be healed. I really don't see how it's that hard to suspend disbelief. For a character to not have some fear of death, to me, is just unrealistic.

Again, nobody as asking or telling you to do anything. Continue as you like.

[bloodalchemist]

Im not saying you cant rp them out, but jesus, after ten years rping a cleric seeking for their soul every time some dumb kid charges into the fray, its old. My gripes about the setting aside, im not saying its bad for rp. Its bad for a story. Rp is short term,in the moment, in that event, it can be great. But for the grand total? It gets old. It's been old for me for a long while, why i stopped playing clerics and other spellcasters. It bores the living hell out of me roleplaying them anymore. Oh look, reality is my bitch, i dont even use lube to *bleep-itty-bleep* her these days. And its not like mara being able to literally punch giants to death is all that much better. Overall, the setting sucks(in my opinion). It has its redeeming factors, but honestly i have a hard time seeing them these days, i'd much rather play eberron for a high magic setting that actually embraces the fact its high magic, or play birthright, a game thats actually low magic and challenging. Sadly, no tabletop groups around me are willing to play anything else. Need to find a WoD or Numenera group,-something- other than the standard hack and slash magic time stuff cause i am super burnt out on it.

[Lady Frost]

Feb 16, 2015 14:16:50 GMT -5 StabbingNirvana said:

Who knows what type of great RP could be had by raising someone that died. A while back when I first made Vel, Hol and Vel had a situation where they heard a baby crying and nearby was the corpse of what ended up being the father. In an attempt to raise the dead guy, we had to discover several facts regarding the father. I think the name and some personal belonging of his or something like that. It took a while and it brought on RP situations that still arise every here and then that are tied back to that event.

Overall, the abilities are there and there's people willing to take the plunge into doing what they think is right with those abilities. Raising someone is no different than flinging out implodes to your hearts consent. If raises and resurrections start being lame RP, then so do insta-heals. And if those spells are lame, then eventually other magic abilities could start getting chained together, designating all magic (with the exception of burning hands, which is NEVER lame) to being lame.

It only sparked more RP because the DM took it on, not because it was realistic.

[bloodalchemist]

LF raises a good point about realism. To cut off any arguments before they happen, im not arguing for realism. Any setting that uses any magic at all has thrown the concept of realism out the door. Im a writer, and in my own work and in others, i look for struggle. I look for character defining challengers that they have struggled to overcome, against themselves or an outside force. Working in a setting where death literally does not matter removes a huge part of struggle to me. Thats why i couldn't even be bothered to pvp. Its entirely a joke to me, outside duels to rp training or to settle matters of honor and such. You might kill me, but im going to back tomorrow, no worse for the ware. It gets tedious to always have to be the one rping the effects of death, when the vast majority dont. It becomes a joke, something of, how high of a horse am i going to continue to ride, just so that i can feel like im on thehigh ground when it comes to rp.

I readily admit my rp these days is lazy. Outside of Ironsworn stuff, i just couldnt care less. Been there done that, either i roll the crits or i dont and die if i didnt bring enough people. The only struggle left for me comes from rp confrontations, actual pvp is a joke, fighting hordes of monsters is a joke, dungeons are a joke. The challenge left is derived from two players rping out confrontation, that remains as the only struggle to me. Character development can come from the above things, but in my experience the last 4-5 years, it doesnt. Most interesting character development and struggle comes from rp confrontations

[fisheyes]

In my opinion, the single biggest reason why FRC continuously fails at immersion is the level range. Closely followed by, and linked to, the over-abundance of loot, wealth and magical items. Naturally, we get a lot of Gameplay and Story Segregation (NWN Mechanics vs Canon RP) when we on one hand have dozens and dozens of super heroes with more gold than Smaug, while on the other we still want to keep things... ‘realistic’.

Gameplay tells us that we can raise people from the dead and that we can easily gather millions of GP by walking through a forest, over and over again. And this works fine when we’re just out adventuring. But as soon as we begin to look for a deeper story than just dungeon crawling and adventuring, the immersion starts falling apart. What? I can’t raise them? People are poor and sick? Oh, let me throw some money at them and fix it, I can easily make another million. Yes... Lame Story.

While I think it’s awesome (and important for the plot) that the victims from the recent Alizarin Massacre by Padrin’s Murder Gorgons stay dead, I also think it’s immersion breaking when there are no attempts made to raise the dead students when there are characters involved who has the means to do so, and when resurrection magic is pretty common among adventurers (and these were no random commoners, it was students of the Alizarin Academy, perhaps even students from noble or merchant families? Or are they all orphans? And isn’t the Academy run by powerful adventurers who probably knew these students by name? But then again... Plot!). And it would get even worse if Padrin, the EVIL Druid of Doom, was raised from the dead while the students weren’t (not that I’d want to force a permanent death on anyone, but from an outside perspective, being killed by Mirrir would be a good ending... since she then also has to live with the consequences... but we could undo it all with a raise. Also, I don’t know why Padrin did what he did, but I think it was a brilliant way of turning a small stagnated plot into something bigger and better! InstantAwesomeJustAddMurderGorgons!)

Personally, I would love it if FRC’s level range and loot was reduced by, say, 50% and all the best items in stores were dumped into rare high level loot or replaced with lower level options. Or forever cast out into the Abyss. An FRC where levels 12-14+ or so were the new epic would be totally awesome. I do not consider epic levels to be all that 'fun' or necessary on a PW, quite the contrary. Epic levels work much better in single player or DMed campagins. It actually detracts more from my enjoyment and immersion when all the major plotlines have to summon Cthulhu, Godzilla and Sauron to be able to challenge the local demi-gods... OR some contrived RP has to take place where their powers are temporarily nerfed within the confines of the Plot, making levels and wealth pointless. Perhaps I’ve just been playing this game too long, or I’m just used to lower level campaigns that can be just as epic without facing Cthulhugodzillasauron Eater of Worlds in a boss battle (who is disguised like your average horde of orcs), and then easily paying reparations for all the burning cities and still have coin left for the caravan... but who pays for caravans these days when you can teleport? In any case, such a change seems very unlikely to happen, so enough about that. But I can dream and hope that the gap between gameplay/NWN mechanics and Story/Canon RP will be decreased. It's not hardcoded.

However, if we want to have the cookie and eat it too, if we want levels and wealth, while still also taking death seriously, then I think we need to change the way we look at death and resurrection magic. Make it an official DM rule/guideline/statement/in-game journal note/OOC message in the Fugue that tells something like:

"Deaths in dungeons from non-plot related adventuring are not to be taken as real deaths, but merely as "it's just a flesh wound", a serious wound that knocks the character unconscious and requires powerful healing magics. Raise Dead and Resurrection does not actually raise people from the dead (in most circumstances), merely from the 'brink of death' when normal healing magic are not strong enough. Real death only happens at the discretion of players and DMs, and can normally only result from plots or the character's own actions. Characters can be 'raised' from Plot Deaths by True Resurrection, only available with DM assistance."

So ScrewTheSourceRulesIHavePlot! That would help with immersion, even if we're keeping the Cthulhu levels, as we would then, as paradoxical as it may seem, actually be closer to the level of realism in the Forgotten Realms when it comes to frequency of returning from the dead! D&D source rules and high levels just doesn't work on a PW if we want to take death seriously.
Then, once we're taking death seriously, have important established NPCs permanently killed by rampaging gorgons to set an example (not redshirt NPC students that no one really cares about. Kill Bentin! Okey, maybe no on cares about Bentin either, but... someone people know and care about!). Increasing the XP penalty or adding a diamond material component to raise dead and resurrection probably won't have much effect if the XP penalty can be avoided with a raise and there is an unlimited amount of loose coins out in the forest. And that over-abundance of wealth has its own mechanics and RP problems...