Velisario the Paladin: Yay of Nay?

[StabbingNirvana]

Basically for a good while now a little birdie has been coming to my window sill telling me people have been saying I play a shitty paladin. Here's your chance to make that little birdie's words spring to life.

[The Tallest Dwarf]

Old buddy, you should know that no matter what someone, somewhere, will criticize your roleplay and your ability to convincingly act a part.

My advice to everyone who has issues with someone's portrayal,especially "team good" versus "team evil"? Roll the opposite of what you typically play.If you've already done this then you're probably the type of person who wouldn't need to do it anyhow.

[Kiyohime 🐍]

Velisario is a bit of a douche so yay.

-------

Jokes aside, unless you really want some feedback on your RP (like Fenix's thread) there is no reason for you to explain your rp to anyone.

Haters gonna hate.

[arisnorman1]

Vel has killed children, Lied,attempts to attack people with no known bounties or warrents. so..take your pick?

[Razgriz]

Holy Justice Desdomona Rand's judgment to Grandmaster Velisario Chrysosnomos as per the transcript of the court:

"Grandmaster Velisario. The Justice of Tyr finds you in need of improvement.

Lets leave it at that, this thread is not needed.

[StabbingNirvana]

Noted, aris.

Anyone else?

[Rane]

Haha man i haven't encountered vel enough to say. The only thing that was iffy to me was when vel accepted a raise from kross in the tombs near valkurs roar. Other than that I dont see any issue.

[StabbingNirvana]

Didn't know we could refuse raises at that point. Only that the raise hurt as was told.

[Rane]

Haha to be honest man i didnt know either !

[Defunct Fiddlesticks]

Feb 15, 2014 13:43:05 GMT -5 arisnorman1 said:

Vel has killed children, Lied,attempts to attack people with no known bounties or warrents. so..take your pick?

The only time Henrik has ever seen Velisario kill children was during a DM event when after Henrik had struggled to find a method of saving the children who were part of a corrupted group of enemies. They were not able to be saved and had to be killed.

The resulting RP was some of the best I have ever had on this server. It excelled a mere battle between good and evil and become a moral debate between six guys who all had a different view and different tensions erupted. It was superb and became more like watching a brilliant play.

Had Vel done something of worthy of being dropped as a paladin then he would have fallen, DMs watch. I don't believe DMs here would ignore that. So all the accusations you make, I would say perhaps there is more to than you think from the other side. If you're basing your comments off gossips or screenshots then you're likely going to be wrong? Two sides to every story.

[Deleted]

You and I have talked about this in game, StabbingNirvana, and I'll say again here what I've said there. Basically, to my eye at least, Velisario can come across a lot of the time as lawful neutral rather than lawful good. Lawful neutral looks at laws, rules, regulation, dogma, etc., as taking priority over what is good, and even determining it, and to them, if something is legal, it's "good enough." Velisario has, in a nutshell, used that defense pretty much in so many words as to why he wouldn't listen to what my character had to say about why she'd have liked him to act differently at times that Vel had put her into uncomfortable, painful, and even dangerous positions. In character, my character is chaotic good and will peck a person's eyes out just for hinting at the fact they might consider the law one day. I've got her number. I know who she is. But as a player, when I see a person fall back on legality to justify themselves against someone else's morally based argument, that's when, metaphorically speaking, the lawful neutral detector goes off. You see Vel in action a lot more than I do, and you know what thought process goes on that leads him to do this and that. (And I would have my hands full dealing with Erynne just as much as anyone else does.) So I don't say this so much as criticism, as just a point to keep in mind, to watch that lawful good/lawful neutral line. Given some changes I've become aware of in game, I think you're on the right track, though, so I'm pretty sure Velisario will turn out just fine.

[Fenix]

My own take, from RPing with Velisario around 5 times in character, is that from what I have seen of each paladin, they all represent a different quality of everyone's picture perfect image of a fantastical paladin. Which by no means is a bad thing, and I feel actually adds an individuality and depth to each. For Holance it may be an almost innocence and lovability, Henrik is the pure unwrought compassion and understanding (even if hes not a paladin, I more mean the triad in general), and Armias is the desire to help beyond circumstance as well from the couple times we have talked. I could extend to the only other one I know, Aegus, and say that as a squire he shows the growth and hope to learn and do greater. Now for Velisario, he exhibits the leadership, seriousness, and frontforth progression. He shows the qualities that a paladin has to do what he must, and he knows that hes not always going to get the proper response from what he hopes, but it is what must be done.

paladin  
pal·a·din
noun
1.any one of the 12 legendary peers or knightly champions in attendance on Charlemagne.
2.any knightly or heroic champion.
3.any determined advocate or defender of a noble cause.

Paladins, like knights, follow a strict set of codexed laws, rules, and guidelines. They have a moral set of beliefs, and many people forget that YES they are in fact still human! They have emotion, compassion, casual tendancies, and moral confliction. They dont have to be the epidimy of substantial and wrought divine justice every second of their entire waking life. While the image is something they must bear and show proudly, they also have obligation to themselves to always exemplify their own individualities too, which in turn shows that as great of a role model and high of a power they are, they are still mortal, and they are still human.

So bearing that in mind, every decisions that a Paladin makes, may not always be the greatest possible morally, but might also become what is necessary and the most serving to their cause situationally. This extends even to other situations, for example how during an event Fenix found a woman and her daughter dead in a field with manticore. Everyone wanted to raise them immediately, and he refused to let them. He seemed entirely heartless, when in fact he didn't want them alive just so they could all watch those poor people die again. They were riddled with manticore spikes, they were not going to get far, and he knew they couldn't help the people. He didnt think they deserved such, because it would be more cruel than letting them try again. Situationally, it came that letting the death remain became the more righteous act. Such as killing a child that only leads down a path where they have no options, and will only suffer. It can be seen as helping them, while not the favorable action.

So for what I have seen of Velisario, he is willing to go forth and take these actions, understanding the consequential repricussions that would soon follow after. He is the serious side of the gathering, doing what must be done, and knowing that in the end it is what brings them to move forward toward the goals that are set before them, and serves the greatest good. No path walked easily was a path worth walking.

[The Tallest Dwarf]

Feb 15, 2014 14:53:29 GMT -5 Defunct Fiddlesticks said:

Feb 15, 2014 13:43:05 GMT -5 arisnorman1 said:

Vel has killed children, Lied,attempts to attack people with no known bounties or warrents. so..take your pick?

The only time Henrik has ever seen Velisario kill children was during a DM event when after Henrik had struggled to find a method of saving the children who were part of a corrupted group of enemies. They were not able to be saved and had to be killed.

The resulting RP was some of the best I have ever had on this server. It excelled a mere battle between good and evil and become a moral debate between six guys who all had a different view and different tensions erupted. It was superb and became more like watching a brilliant play.

Had Vel done something of worthy of being dropped as a paladin then he would have fallen, DMs watch. I don't believe DMs here would ignore that. So all the accusations you make, I would say perhaps there is more to than you think from the other side. If you're basing your comments off gossips or screenshots then you're likely going to be wrong? Two sides to every story.

All of us in Hawk's Chronomaster's Keep event were playing LG characters who could have lost much with their gods, from falling as paladins to being stripped of their powers as clerics. And none of us were, because Ao/Hawk expected us to be able to handle the situation as players of characters who deal with very serious moral and ethical quandaries in ways that others simply do not. They all came through with their alignments intact so clearly we were doing something right.

[Pedantry INC]

Vels fine, and so is the rest of the supposed 'team paladin'.

Could I say that I personally find at some times things have seemed too 'light hearted' when I expected something more serious? Sure, I could. But hey. We're playing a game. For fun. I don't think that there's any reason to question Vels status as a paladin anymore than there is reason to question your abilities as an rper. Both are fun, both are good, you play, people play with you, and that's the whole point.

If little birders are chirping a sour song, maybe you should remind them that music is beautiful, and that the old proverb goes 'if you have nothing nice to say, don't say anything at all.' And that includes passing on "the words of others" - because from what I've seen, those little passbys are often not only corrupted, but misinterpreted and made even worse with each keyboard they move through. If I could push for one rule on frc, it would be 'thou shalt not speak of another players RP unless that player is welcome to listen to exactly what you have to say'.

[The Tallest Dwarf]

Feb 15, 2014 18:03:37 GMT -5 Pedantry INC said:

Vels fine, and so is the rest of the supposed 'team paladin'.

Could I say that I personally find at some times things have seemed too 'light hearted' when I expected something more serious? Sure, I could. But hey. We're playing a game. For fun. I don't think that there's any reason to question Vels status as a paladin anymore than there is reason to question your abilities as an rper. Both are fun, both are good, you play, people play with you, and that's the whole point.

If little birders are chirping a sour song, maybe you should remind them that music is beautiful, and that the old proverb goes 'if you have nothing nice to say, don't say anything at all.' And that includes passing on "the words of others" - because from what I've seen, those little passbys are often not only corrupted, but misinterpreted and made even worse with each keyboard they move through. If I could push for one rule on frc, it would be 'thou shalt not speak of another players RP unless that player is welcome to listen to exactly what you have to say'.

[Lady Frost]

Feb 15, 2014 14:53:29 GMT -5 Defunct Fiddlesticks said:

Had Vel done something of worthy of being dropped as a paladin then he would have fallen, DMs watch. I don't believe DMs here would ignore that. So all the accusations you make, I would say perhaps there is more to than you think from the other side. If you're basing your comments off gossips or screenshots then you're likely going to be wrong? Two sides to every story.

I'm not going to comment on Vel, personally. However, I will comment on a related problem that I think affects a wider volume of PC's and actions. I disagree with the quote above. I don't believe the DM's would make a paladin fall for anything less than repeated extreme recklessness, the kind of thing where they are trying to fall. If I ever heard that a DM fell a paladin against a players wishes I would not only be wonderfully proud but extremely surprised. This goes for all sorts of things. Clerics practicing their faith poorly, druids not being neutral, blackguards being soft. These things aren't enforced that I've ever seen or heard because the fight and confrontation that would result isn't worth the trouble.
I firmly believe that lots of things go unpunished or unenforced because DM's don't want to listen to players complain about losing. I'm not sure I can reasonably blame them; I bet it gets old. But, I do find it frustrating. I think this general issue overflows into the problem with a lack of repercussions against past criminals.

So, to make it all on topic. I don't agree with some of the things that I have heard / witnessed from the Triad members but I also don't think their guidance towards what is appropriate is enforced well and it eventually becomes normal. That is said from my point of view, of course. I can't know all the facts and details and perhaps I'm wrong. But I do have this opinion for a reason and I know I'm not alone.

[Melinda]

Noone can be likeable to ~everyone else!

Do you have the impresion that "I am a master rpr and everyone likes my characters?" If yes, you are deceived.
There will ~always be a group of people who will not like your rp. ...So what?

Νothing is perfect, but there are always defects and omissions.


The point is: Do ~you have fun with your character? Do you try to stay IC all times? If yes, then no problem!


People who stand and judge about other people's RP instead of having fun with themselves are more imperfect by default anyhow. They also break rule 18 + 19 of the server.
It is annoying that such words came to your ears. I have fun with all your characters.

[Ivarcles]

Do I think you could play Vel a little tighter as to being lawful good? Yeah, probably. But then again, I'm strongly lawful good in real life, and you might not be quite as much. So for you, it might be a bit more of a stretch to play a character with such an ethos. Does it bother me? Not really. Actually, to reiterate some of what Pedantry said, I think some people need to remember this is just a game and not to take everything quite so seriously. After all, we're here first and foremost to play and have fun. Not to say that there can't be constructive criticism; just don't overreact to things that happen in a game. Because it's just that, a game. Relax and chill.

[Fenix]

Feb 15, 2014 18:38:51 GMT -5 Melinda said:

Noone can be likeable to ~everyone else!

Do you have the impresion that "I am a master rpr and everyone likes my characters?" If yes, you are deceived.
There will ~always be a group of people who will not like your rp. ...So what?

Νothing is perfect, but there are always defects and omissions.

What do you mean? Everyone likes Fenix. Everyone.......everyone......everyone.......*sniffle*

[arisnorman1]

Feb 15, 2014 18:28:48 GMT -5 Lady Frost said:

Feb 15, 2014 14:53:29 GMT -5 Defunct Fiddlesticks said:

Had Vel done something of worthy of being dropped as a paladin then he would have fallen, DMs watch. I don't believe DMs here would ignore that. So all the accusations you make, I would say perhaps there is more to than you think from the other side. If you're basing your comments off gossips or screenshots then you're likely going to be wrong? Two sides to every story.

I'm not going to comment on Vel, personally. However, I will comment on a related problem that I think affects a wider volume of PC's and actions. I disagree with the quote above. I don't believe the DM's would make a paladin fall for anything less than repeated extreme recklessness, the kind of thing where they are trying to fall. If I ever heard that a DM fell a paladin against a players wishes I would not only be wonderfully proud but extremely surprised. This goes for all sorts of things. Clerics practicing their faith poorly, druids not being neutral, blackguards being soft. These things aren't enforced that I've ever seen or heard because the fight and confrontation that would result isn't worth the trouble.
I firmly believe that lots of things go unpunished or unenforced because DM's don't want to listen to players complain about losing. I'm not sure I can reasonably blame them; I bet it gets old. But, I do find it frustrating. I think this general issue overflows into the problem with a lack of repercussions against past criminals.
+111 agree 100% dms dont want drama so they let stuff slide. not saying vel did these or not but. if i had a honest real prob with how he played vel i wouldn't drag it here. as me and him spoke on the server already

[hellscream123]

*pays two cent toll booth*
He's a hell of a lot nicer/gooder/paladinny than blue.

in personal thought he's under the same situation more oft than naught as Edthin. Trying to be a lawful good beacon in a place full of chaotics taking the fastest roads.

you play this well and portray who he is. No paladin should be a cookie cutter evil stomper. That's just not in mortal/human/elf/dorf/ect nature.

[Razgriz]

Falling as a paladin is a process that takes time (weeks/months/years) in most situations, unless the evil act was clearly evident, like killing an innocent.

Bentusi made an useful thread not long ago about what was expected of paladins in The Forgotten Realms. If I am not wrong, the FR paladin ended beign quite different from the D&D paladin.

frc.proboards.com/thread/19972/universal-paladinhood-god-sworn

I think that what is needed, is a formal code of what IS appropriate for a paladin to do and also the things that could lead him/her to evil, and eventually to falling.

FR-Cormyr wants The universal paladinhood or the god sworn paladinhood? Thats the question here.

[StabbingNirvana]

Anything more specific other than "well I was told..." that makes anyone feel on an ooc level that I play a shitty paladin? No need to pussyfoot. If you don't want to post it on the public forum I have an unlimited amount of space in my pm box. Hell, I won't even respond to it. I'm just so curious!

[quelunia]

First of all... I would like to say .. This thread is ridiculous.. Asking for advice on how to change ones style to reflect what is viewed as appropriate.. is one thing .. to ask everyones opinion.. a big fat no .. You are going to invite more harm than good ..

Vel, your character and those of the Triad I have had contact with over time .. have all played appropriate... I have complimented you on Slate as well.. and sent a few OOC tells about that... You put alot of thought and effort in your characters... My opinions and that of everyone else as to what a paladin should act like is up to the DMs and you... as well as the Order. Its your character... Its your Roleplay ... Asking others to grade it is going to bring exactly this... A bunch of people upset about this or that...

I have played with a horrible paladin before .. and got him dropped long ass time ago... Trust me .. from what I have seen in game you are doing ok.. and the trial told you all you need to know... This all said.. Dont let the BS here bum you out.. You asked for it haha.. But ya.. seriously .. dont let it bum you .. some of it you might use as inspiration.. but ya thats about all I have to say. Your RP is just that... Yours!

[quelunia]

Also know my opinion of a Paladin is not in line with the holding hands and singing prayers.. I expect them to be more rough than a priest.. and to take actions that the priest will not... they are far more militant than the average faithful... Laws are all well and good.. as long as they are for the greater good... Bringing harm is an unfortunate part of the militant wing of the faith.. But it has to be done some times hence the militant wing of the Faith...

For those of you who think Paladins are all cushy folks .. I submit look them up and look up all types as well as the faiths... Retribution? That doesnt mean playing patty cake... Not sure of Vels patron .. but ya .. I am assuming Tyr... Heck.. Justicar ? anyone wanting to knock a player needs to invest some time into looking this stuff up before assuming stuff as well all know to assume is to make an ass of u and me....

[FORSETIS]

I removed my post. Its not constructive.

[StabbingNirvana]

Read up to this point. So here's the list for being a bad paladin so far.

-killing children
-lying
-going after people without bounties
-being lawful neutral/needing to be more lawful good
-being light hearted at times

Anything specific anyone else anyone would like to add as to what makes you OOCly believe me to be playing a bad paladin?

Oh. And so far quelenia, I'm not bummed out, other than the two responses that said I'm not up to par without any reasoning towards it at all. I'm actually quite enjoying this. Thanks to everyone that's participated thus far. Again, if you don't want to comment on the thread, my pm box is open.

[Deleted]

Feb 15, 2014 18:28:48 GMT -5 Lady Frost said:

I'm not going to comment on Vel, personally. However, I will comment on a related problem that I think affects a wider volume of PC's and actions. I disagree with the quote above. I don't believe the DM's would make a paladin fall for anything less than repeated extreme recklessness, the kind of thing where they are trying to fall. If I ever heard that a DM fell a paladin against a players wishes I would not only be wonderfully proud but extremely surprised. This goes for all sorts of things. Clerics practicing their faith poorly, druids not being neutral, blackguards being soft. These things aren't enforced that I've ever seen or heard because the fight and confrontation that would result isn't worth the trouble.
I firmly believe that lots of things go unpunished or unenforced because DM's don't want to listen to players complain about losing. I'm not sure I can reasonably blame them; I bet it gets old. But, I do find it frustrating. I think this general issue overflows into the problem with a lack of repercussions against past criminals.

So, to make it all on topic. I don't agree with some of the things that I have heard / witnessed from the Triad members but I also don't think their guidance towards what is appropriate is enforced well and it eventually becomes normal. That is said from my point of view, of course. I can't know all the facts and details and perhaps I'm wrong. But I do have this opinion for a reason and I know I'm not alone.

As someone who very often disagrees with Ladyfrost on some things, I am in absolute agreement on this one. Ladyfrost, if I had a mailing address, I'd send you a bouquet for stepping forward and saying these things.

[Deleted]

Btw, not to derail the thread to general paladinhood on the server, but I wouldn't mind seeing the DM's take light actions to nudge people in the direction of appropriate role play of a given class or alignment or what ever. Even saying to a player in tells, "Your deity disapproves of this action. They stop giving you the ability to lay hands until you repent and atone. Please don't use lay on hands until this issue is settled." That would be gentle and even voluntary on the part of the player to cooperate, but it would at least be *something*. "Consequences" don't have to be crushing. They just have to get the idea across that the game world *does* in fact have *an* appropriate response to what a player character does, even chosen from a range of options. Deities, however, are sentient NPC's whose responses to things should be represented just as much as cityguards and townsfolk. If PVP in town draws a response from the guards, then corresponding actions should draw a merited response from the gods. As powerful and remote as they are, they are NPC's to be represented just like anyone or anything else. Not having the deities have such responses doesn't just mean "no consequences" for PC actions. It also inaccurately represents some very highly influential canon characters of the setting.

EDIT: I say all that in the knowledge that I don't know everything that does and does not go on between players and DM's. The DM team probably does more than I am aware of, and most people do a good job of role playing their classes and alignments. I'm speaking more on general principle and theoretically than anything else.

[DOT]

i thought vel was a tormy, in any case rp on