Good writing vs. Good roleplaying

[bentusi16]

To preface, I don't believe the two are actually against each other. You can have good writing and good roleplaying, and in fact they compliment each other.

What I mean to say is that their is a difference between good writing, and good roleplaying. You can have one without the other, but by maximizing both, you get the best of both worlds.

Now, good writing is very hard to define. Not everyone enjoys the same type of story, and that's fine. But there are a few things that I think are universal.

Note: There's going to be spoilers here for one of my characters background, why he does what he does, why he acts like he does. I know 'don't metagame' and crap but you can't have a reasonable discussion about this stuff without giving an example people can understand and relate to, and frankly, it shouldn't be on ME to stop other people meta gaming. if someone sees something and consciously meta games it, it's on their head.

That being said, spoiler warnings for those who don't want to see it.

But to actually begin with, let's talk about one of the key points of writing. Characters. On a roleplaying server especially, characters are what makes the world go round. And the same goes for almost every book out there. A plot can be interesting and unique, but if the characters are flat, are you going to read it? On the reverse, if the character is interesting and unique, arey ou willing to suffer through a tried and true plot that's been done a million times?

I think most people lean towards the latter, the reason being that an interesting and well crafted character is fun to explore an old idea with. It's a new perspective. I believe more people will groan over a badly written character then they will over a badly written plot. I think we've all done it at some point. "That book is so terrible", someone will say and we'll agree and say "But I really like X character".

But what makes a good character? Keep in mind this is simply my experience from years of role playing and writing.

And ultimately, what makes a good character is making them human. Humanization and characterization are key to writing a good character. And understand when I say 'making them human', I don't mean culturally. I mean how they act. Motivations, goals, emotions, logic, sentience. Something that makes them seem like an actual living person, and not merely a collection of tropes. The difference between 'people' and 'caricatures'.

In no particular order, and all of them almost completely tied to one another.

Goal - Goals are important. All characters should have goals. Even 'getting a goal' can be a goal and an interesting intellectual journey. But no one, not you or I or any character every created that's any good, lacks a goal. When coming up with a goal for a character, we have to ask ourselves various things. WHY is this goal important to them. WHAT is the actual goal. WHEN did they decide to take the goal on. HOW are they willing to go about completing said goal.

And almost everyone alive has multiple goals, and that's very true of our characters here on FRC as well. The goals can be short term and immediate (I need gold), to long term (I need a LOT of gold), to impossible (I need to wipe the church of bane off the map). But before setting a goal and starting to roleplay it, it's important to seriously consider why our characters would want to complete that goal.

Edthin has a short term goal, a long term goal, and an 'impossible' goal. In fact he has several of each. I'll focus on the election in Valkurs Roar since it's the most obvious one and one everyone already knows about.

Edthins goal in regards to Valkurs roar include winning the election, rewriting the laws, eliminating crime, wiping out the local banite influence, banning certain religions, and several hidden goals I'm not going to reveal here.

In one plot, Edthin has a dozen goals, all with different avenues of finishing them. But why he has these goals is important, and I'll talk about it later.

But goals, again, are very important to being a person. And I think every character on the server has this base covered fairly well.

Motivation - Motivation is extremely important to help define a character, but beside that, a realistic motivation for actions makes a good character. Motivations are psychological or physiological urges to move towards a goal, and helps guide the actions of an individual to do that goal. For example, a character who is under attack would be motivated to defend themselves. They are motivated to attack back in order to complete this goal. The goal is safety, motivation supplies the 'fuel' to defend themselves. Motivations essentially cover the HOW and WHY I mentioned earlier.

Now here's where things are going to get controversial. Bad motivations are an issue. Understand that simply having a 'bad', as in 'evil' motivation, is not bad. Motivation is motivation. BUt doing something 'just because' is a BAD motivation.

I'm going to bring out the joker here, because most people try to ape him. And the problem is, they get it wrong. They think that the Joker does things randomly. To us it appears he does. But the fact is, he has a logic to him. It's hard for us to understand, because the joker is flippin' insane. And unless your character has 8 or less wisdom (wisdom governs sanity), your character is not actually insane. Being evil is not an excuse to not give a proper motivation to a character.

This comes up in writing alllll the time, especially with new writers or people with writers block. Villian A does something 'evil' for no apparent reason, and generally ends up biting them in the ass later. Yet previously, they were shown to be highly intelligent and logical. Where was the motivation to perform the act? Why was the act performed? How did the character go from being one way to suddenly doing things without any real motivation.

I Think the only exception to this I've seen that works is when someone is losing their mind, e.g. they're ass is getting beat and they just break down and lose control. No one is evil for the sake of being evil (more on this later).

So to sum up, motivation is important, and even 'evil' motivations are good, but your character has to have motivation. You cannot top the joker. You are not the joker. And even the joker has motivation. Insane, twisted motivation that makes no sense to us not insane people, but motivation.

Character development - This is the big one and it's going to be the most controversial.

People change. Constantly. If we want to make a character human, in a realistic way, this is the MOST IMPORTANT THING. No one and nothing is static. As people encounter new information they change and adapt to it. Part of the joy of reading a book is watching the character react to new information, and see how it changes their mindset.

However, static characters often exist in works of fiction, and are not necessarily a bad thing, but almost always as a secondary character. Dynamic characters are far more interesting. Although it should be noted that not every character is going to change at hte drop of the hat. Deeply held beliefs are hard to dislodge in people, and that's also true in characters.

However, for this point I'm going to let someone much smarter then me make the defining things.

tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/DynamicCharacter

tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/StaticCharacter

tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/RoundedCharacter?from=Main.RoundCharacter

tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/FlatCharacter

And yes, I feel their are too many static flat characters right now, and a few static round characters. That's just my personal opinion

I have to go to work (time flies when you're having fun), but I'll be back later and add some more stuff. Feel free to discuss and yell at me for what I've written so far though.

[gainreduction]

+1 Well said.

[gainreduction]

Motivations are important for plot development.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monomyth

Basically every plot in "well-written" drama follows this. If you're interested please read it. It also applies to film/TV and music composition.

[mandene]

This is a very well written post, bentusi16. I haven't clicked all the links you have provided (I'll read them later).

Are you perhaps a writer, or at least interested in writing?

I'm not so sure about the flatness of other characters. While, it wouldn't surprise me that some are (yes, I am being hypocritical here ), I'm trying to give them the beneift of the doubt.

You bentusi16, are a perfect example for this. While I know that with Edthin and Savreree I've just started to scratch the surface on, to me Bethlen could easily seem like a flat character. The reason behind it is that he is on Ariean's "top list" of people she despises to be around. Which, results that except for her (and me) seeing that he is a annoying loudmouth (Ari also thinks he's a fool), there's not really much more I know about him. Your other characters are a hint for me that he isn't.

[DM Hawk]

Nov 29, 2013 9:20:55 GMT -5 bentusi16 said:

To preface, I don't believe the two are actually against each other. You can have good writing and good roleplaying, and in fact they compliment each other.

What I mean to say is that their is a difference between good writing, and good roleplaying. You can have one without the other, but by maximizing both, you get the best of both worlds.

Now, good writing is very hard to define. Not everyone enjoys the same type of story, and that's fine. But there are a few things that I think are universal.

Note: There's going to be spoilers here for one of my characters background, why he does what he does, why he acts like he does. I know 'don't metagame' and crap but you can't have a reasonable discussion about this stuff without giving an example people can understand and relate to, and frankly, it shouldn't be on ME to stop other people meta gaming. if someone sees something and consciously meta games it, it's on their head.

That being said, spoiler warnings for those who don't want to see it.

But to actually begin with, let's talk about one of the key points of writing. Characters. On a roleplaying server especially, characters are what makes the world go round. And the same goes for almost every book out there. A plot can be interesting and unique, but if the characters are flat, are you going to read it? On the reverse, if the character is interesting and unique, arey ou willing to suffer through a tried and true plot that's been done a million times?

I think most people lean towards the latter, the reason being that an interesting and well crafted character is fun to explore an old idea with. It's a new perspective. I believe more people will groan over a badly written character then they will over a badly written plot. I think we've all done it at some point. "That book is so terrible", someone will say and we'll agree and say "But I really like X character".

But what makes a good character? Keep in mind this is simply my experience from years of role playing and writing.

And ultimately, what makes a good character is making them human. Humanization and characterization are key to writing a good character. And understand when I say 'making them human', I don't mean culturally. I mean how they act. Motivations, goals, emotions, logic, sentience. Something that makes them seem like an actual living person, and not merely a collection of tropes. The difference between 'people' and 'caricatures'.

In no particular order, and all of them almost completely tied to one another.

Goal - Goals are important. All characters should have goals. Even 'getting a goal' can be a goal and an interesting intellectual journey. But no one, not you or I or any character every created that's any good, lacks a goal. When coming up with a goal for a character, we have to ask ourselves various things. WHY is this goal important to them. WHAT is the actual goal. WHEN did they decide to take the goal on. HOW are they willing to go about completing said goal.

And almost everyone alive has multiple goals, and that's very true of our characters here on FRC as well. The goals can be short term and immediate (I need gold), to long term (I need a LOT of gold), to impossible (I need to wipe the church of bane off the map). But before setting a goal and starting to roleplay it, it's important to seriously consider why our characters would want to complete that goal.

Edthin has a short term goal, a long term goal, and an 'impossible' goal. In fact he has several of each. I'll focus on the election in Valkurs Roar since it's the most obvious one and one everyone already knows about.

Edthins goal in regards to Valkurs roar include winning the election, rewriting the laws, eliminating crime, wiping out the local banite influence, banning certain religions, and several hidden goals I'm not going to reveal here.

In one plot, Edthin has a dozen goals, all with different avenues of finishing them. But why he has these goals is important, and I'll talk about it later.

But goals, again, are very important to being a person. And I think every character on the server has this base covered fairly well.

Motivation - Motivation is extremely important to help define a character, but beside that, a realistic motivation for actions makes a good character. Motivations are psychological or physiological urges to move towards a goal, and helps guide the actions of an individual to do that goal. For example, a character who is under attack would be motivated to defend themselves. They are motivated to attack back in order to complete this goal. The goal is safety, motivation supplies the 'fuel' to defend themselves. Motivations essentially cover the HOW and WHY I mentioned earlier.

Now here's where things are going to get controversial. Bad motivations are an issue. Understand that simply having a 'bad', as in 'evil' motivation, is not bad. Motivation is motivation. BUt doing something 'just because' is a BAD motivation.

I'm going to bring out the joker here, because most people try to ape him. And the problem is, they get it wrong. They think that the Joker does things randomly. To us it appears he does. But the fact is, he has a logic to him. It's hard for us to understand, because the joker is flippin' insane. And unless your character has 8 or less wisdom (wisdom governs sanity), your character is not actually insane. Being evil is not an excuse to not give a proper motivation to a character.

This comes up in writing alllll the time, especially with new writers or people with writers block. Villian A does something 'evil' for no apparent reason, and generally ends up biting them in the ass later. Yet previously, they were shown to be highly intelligent and logical. Where was the motivation to perform the act? Why was the act performed? How did the character go from being one way to suddenly doing things without any real motivation.

I Think the only exception to this I've seen that works is when someone is losing their mind, e.g. they're ass is getting beat and they just break down and lose control. No one is evil for the sake of being evil (more on this later).

So to sum up, motivation is important, and even 'evil' motivations are good, but your character has to have motivation. You cannot top the joker. You are not the joker. And even the joker has motivation. Insane, twisted motivation that makes no sense to us not insane people, but motivation.

Character development - This is the big one and it's going to be the most controversial.

People change. Constantly. If we want to make a character human, in a realistic way, this is the MOST IMPORTANT THING. No one and nothing is static. As people encounter new information they change and adapt to it. Part of the joy of reading a book is watching the character react to new information, and see how it changes their mindset.

However, static characters often exist in works of fiction, and are not necessarily a bad thing, but almost always as a secondary character. Dynamic characters are far more interesting. Although it should be noted that not every character is going to change at hte drop of the hat. Deeply held beliefs are hard to dislodge in people, and that's also true in characters.

However, for this point I'm going to let someone much smarter then me make the defining things.

tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/DynamicCharacter

tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/StaticCharacter

tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/RoundedCharacter?from=Main.RoundCharacter

tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/FlatCharacter

And yes, I feel their are too many static flat characters right now, and a few static round characters. That's just my personal opinion

I have to go to work (time flies when you're having fun), but I'll be back later and add some more stuff. Feel free to discuss and yell at me for what I've written so far though.

I think there's a lot of good thoughts here, definitely worth a read.

One thing that I will personally disagree with is the statement that no one and nothing is static. I disagree with this statement being as absolute as it sounds in that I believe there is a limit to how much most people will change.

The Forgotten Realms (and that real life campaign setting) are dynamic and constantly changing...and people adapt and change with it - on the surface. Surface behavior changes a lot...but most often the change is temporary and less often it is permanent. People adapt to the environment they are in but people are creatures of habit, and they tend to revert back if they can.

I think for most people, deep inside, the core of a person doesn't change very often. This more static or more fixed aspect within a person influences the external behavior on the surface. If life forces a change upon someone, surface behaviors will change but the core will usually continue to influence these surface behaviors as it always has, with the same tendencies and preferences.

I think it takes a lot to change a person's core, and even the change brought on by some of these significant life-events will only be temporary.
-Becoming a parent
-Death of a dearly loved person
-Suffering severe, permanent bodily injury
-Strong forces applied to a person when they are very young and still developing (0 to 3 years).

While people adapt, learn, and use their knowledge, the core nature that flavors their behavior does not often change permanently and I don't think this moves easily - unless it is in a person's core nature to change with the wind - which would also be a fixed aspect of that person's core.

Good post Bentusi.  Thought provoking for me.  

[Dobian]

I like to write, I post fiction on the forum and do a fair amount of rp-by-pm on here. I'm not the best writer, but when I write something I try to make it entertaining. When I write stories there is always a plot with dialogue, and a very defined beginning/middle/end. I try to make it something that someone will get a kick out of reading, not just for my own self-indulgence. I always ask myself, if I was someone else, would I want to read this crap? I find it tedious writing about my characters basically sitting there doing nothing while I expound about them. When I do those kind of posts, I keep them relatively short to give some insight into the character without boring the reader to death.

[bentusi16]

I wont ansqer individyals right now, as im ar work, but this topic seems to generate some interest. I am using a mobile device so my spelling and grammar may not be perfect.

I'll reply to individual post later but this time I want to continue my original points.

first I want to say that all of this also applies to a good characters as well as evil. Good characters will also require reasonable motivation.

To touch a little bit more on motivation, not only is a good motivation important is important to have a reason for that motivation to have a reason for that goal.

An alignment is not an excuse to do something. simply being good or evil doesn't mean you are always going to be that way. Nor is it a proper motivation to necessarily do good or evil.

this is because part of motivation is background. Why is it they are motivated to do something? only outsiders and magical creatures have set alignments.the reason that you see movies creatures in have almost always or usually near their alignment is because they are not magically compelled to act in a certain manner.

Which is why why is so important.why is your character evil. We are not allowed to play magical blooded sub dash races. For some people it is the culture they came from. Red wizards are an excellent example of this.for others it may be due to the psychological disorder sociopathy. It could be due to their parents, or how they were raised, as individuals. it could be due to economics or how they grew up. but ultimately very few people are born evil, or good. So the idea of out of the womb alignment w hile possible is very very rare.

The same is true for good characters. It's not enuogh to say 'this character is good', you have to say 'why is this character good'.

[Razgriz]

Nice post indeed. I will have to agree with Hawk about changes though. Sometimes, those changes can take years to develop. Minor changes happen more often, and a change does not mean bad or good. I think there is always something positive and negative in every change that a character experiences.

In other thread, flaws were mentioned and I think flaws are an important factor to consider as well. Flawed and human characters are more interesting than those perfect and static ones. One character can look perfect in the outside, their actions, goals, traits or raw stats, but there is always something that will make even these characters perform poorly.

My favorite examples of these are when characters strive to improve, to overcome their flaws, or also when the circumstances and environment make them realize that what they were doing has no meaning anymore, or that they were wrong/right. Books like Song of Ice and Fire have many characters that experience such situations.

[bentusi16]

Flaws - Merc brings this up. Yes, flaws are important. Flaws help make a character, again, more human.

If theirs one thing I want nail into peoples brains is that 'Your characters need to act like human beings'. Humans have flaws. But, and this is important in writing, a flaw is only really a flaw if it actually causes some sort of detriment to a character.

A flaw that actually never effects anything isn't a real flaw. It's a fake flaw, something you can point at and go 'look, he's flawed!" even though the flaw never comes up in the story.

I'm going to use Ed here. Bluntly, Ed is a lusty guy. Dude likes to get on most every night. There are reasons for it but I won't get into that here. THe reason this is a flaw, a real flaw, is because it actually does effect him in serious ways.

Ed is also very judgemental. This is a mixed flaw. On one hand, being judgemental can be a good thing. It can save your life if you follow a gut feeling and realize that whoever your talking to really is as bad as you judged them. On the flip side, Ed is level 11 because he's judged like 75% of the server to either be chaotic or evil, and he won't hang out with them.

I get a lot of compliments for Ed OOC, but the dude has very few friends IC. This is a flaw.

Also, remember the a flaw is NOT necessarily a weakness. A flaw is a flaw. A weakness can be a flaw, a flaw can be a weakness, but neither HAS to be the other. Example: Edthins pursuit of justice. It is almost entirely a strength. But it is flawed because he's like a bull seeing red when it comes to injustice. Once he sees it he goes off.

So flaws are important. It's not that you can't have a character that has strengths, or is really good at something, but if you have a character that seems to know everything about everything and doesn't seem to ever be wrong, then you've got a character that's sort of boring to read about. In works of fiction that involve a group especially, since the best thing about group fiction is that various interesting characters come together with diverse skills and pool them together to overcome a goal.

I'm thinking that about covers it. Mind you I've been working in freezing weather outside all day so my brain may not be 100% but I think that about says all I wanted to say.

I will add though, specifically for creating a villain or other 'bad' character. No one ever thinks what they're doing is wrong. Not when they're doing it. If you want to see the best example of this, go watch Serenity (the firefly movie). No one in HISTORY has EVER thought what they were doing is wrong. They will justify it, because no one has ever performed an action they did not feel was justified at the time of the action.

Or to put it another way, no one ever thinks they're evil. That they're in the wrong.

[bentusi16]

Nov 29, 2013 10:32:08 GMT -5 DM Hawk said:

Nov 29, 2013 9:20:55 GMT -5 bentusi16 said:

To preface, I don't believe the two are actually against each other. You can have good writing and good roleplaying, and in fact they compliment each other.

What I mean to say is that their is a difference between good writing, and good roleplaying. You can have one without the other, but by maximizing both, you get the best of both worlds.

Now, good writing is very hard to define. Not everyone enjoys the same type of story, and that's fine. But there are a few things that I think are universal.

Note: There's going to be spoilers here for one of my characters background, why he does what he does, why he acts like he does. I know 'don't metagame' and crap but you can't have a reasonable discussion about this stuff without giving an example people can understand and relate to, and frankly, it shouldn't be on ME to stop other people meta gaming. if someone sees something and consciously meta games it, it's on their head.

That being said, spoiler warnings for those who don't want to see it.

But to actually begin with, let's talk about one of the key points of writing. Characters. On a roleplaying server especially, characters are what makes the world go round. And the same goes for almost every book out there. A plot can be interesting and unique, but if the characters are flat, are you going to read it? On the reverse, if the character is interesting and unique, arey ou willing to suffer through a tried and true plot that's been done a million times?

I think most people lean towards the latter, the reason being that an interesting and well crafted character is fun to explore an old idea with. It's a new perspective. I believe more people will groan over a badly written character then they will over a badly written plot. I think we've all done it at some point. "That book is so terrible", someone will say and we'll agree and say "But I really like X character".

But what makes a good character? Keep in mind this is simply my experience from years of role playing and writing.

And ultimately, what makes a good character is making them human. Humanization and characterization are key to writing a good character. And understand when I say 'making them human', I don't mean culturally. I mean how they act. Motivations, goals, emotions, logic, sentience. Something that makes them seem like an actual living person, and not merely a collection of tropes. The difference between 'people' and 'caricatures'.

In no particular order, and all of them almost completely tied to one another.

Goal - Goals are important. All characters should have goals. Even 'getting a goal' can be a goal and an interesting intellectual journey. But no one, not you or I or any character every created that's any good, lacks a goal. When coming up with a goal for a character, we have to ask ourselves various things. WHY is this goal important to them. WHAT is the actual goal. WHEN did they decide to take the goal on. HOW are they willing to go about completing said goal.

And almost everyone alive has multiple goals, and that's very true of our characters here on FRC as well. The goals can be short term and immediate (I need gold), to long term (I need a LOT of gold), to impossible (I need to wipe the church of bane off the map). But before setting a goal and starting to roleplay it, it's important to seriously consider why our characters would want to complete that goal.

Edthin has a short term goal, a long term goal, and an 'impossible' goal. In fact he has several of each. I'll focus on the election in Valkurs Roar since it's the most obvious one and one everyone already knows about.

Edthins goal in regards to Valkurs roar include winning the election, rewriting the laws, eliminating crime, wiping out the local banite influence, banning certain religions, and several hidden goals I'm not going to reveal here.

In one plot, Edthin has a dozen goals, all with different avenues of finishing them. But why he has these goals is important, and I'll talk about it later.

But goals, again, are very important to being a person. And I think every character on the server has this base covered fairly well.

Motivation - Motivation is extremely important to help define a character, but beside that, a realistic motivation for actions makes a good character. Motivations are psychological or physiological urges to move towards a goal, and helps guide the actions of an individual to do that goal. For example, a character who is under attack would be motivated to defend themselves. They are motivated to attack back in order to complete this goal. The goal is safety, motivation supplies the 'fuel' to defend themselves. Motivations essentially cover the HOW and WHY I mentioned earlier.

Now here's where things are going to get controversial. Bad motivations are an issue. Understand that simply having a 'bad', as in 'evil' motivation, is not bad. Motivation is motivation. BUt doing something 'just because' is a BAD motivation.

I'm going to bring out the joker here, because most people try to ape him. And the problem is, they get it wrong. They think that the Joker does things randomly. To us it appears he does. But the fact is, he has a logic to him. It's hard for us to understand, because the joker is flippin' insane. And unless your character has 8 or less wisdom (wisdom governs sanity), your character is not actually insane. Being evil is not an excuse to not give a proper motivation to a character.

This comes up in writing alllll the time, especially with new writers or people with writers block. Villian A does something 'evil' for no apparent reason, and generally ends up biting them in the ass later. Yet previously, they were shown to be highly intelligent and logical. Where was the motivation to perform the act? Why was the act performed? How did the character go from being one way to suddenly doing things without any real motivation.

I Think the only exception to this I've seen that works is when someone is losing their mind, e.g. they're ass is getting beat and they just break down and lose control. No one is evil for the sake of being evil (more on this later).

So to sum up, motivation is important, and even 'evil' motivations are good, but your character has to have motivation. You cannot top the joker. You are not the joker. And even the joker has motivation. Insane, twisted motivation that makes no sense to us not insane people, but motivation.

Character development - This is the big one and it's going to be the most controversial.

People change. Constantly. If we want to make a character human, in a realistic way, this is the MOST IMPORTANT THING. No one and nothing is static. As people encounter new information they change and adapt to it. Part of the joy of reading a book is watching the character react to new information, and see how it changes their mindset.

However, static characters often exist in works of fiction, and are not necessarily a bad thing, but almost always as a secondary character. Dynamic characters are far more interesting. Although it should be noted that not every character is going to change at hte drop of the hat. Deeply held beliefs are hard to dislodge in people, and that's also true in characters.

However, for this point I'm going to let someone much smarter then me make the defining things.

tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/DynamicCharacter

tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/StaticCharacter

tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/RoundedCharacter?from=Main.RoundCharacter

tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/FlatCharacter

And yes, I feel their are too many static flat characters right now, and a few static round characters. That's just my personal opinion

I have to go to work (time flies when you're having fun), but I'll be back later and add some more stuff. Feel free to discuss and yell at me for what I've written so far though.

I think there's a lot of good thoughts here, definitely worth a read.

One thing that I will personally disagree with is the statement that no one and nothing is static. I disagree with this statement being as absolute as it sounds in that I believe there is a limit to how much most people will change.

The Forgotten Realms (and that real life campaign setting) are dynamic and constantly changing...and people adapt and change with it - on the surface. Surface behavior changes a lot...but most often the change is temporary and less often it is permanent. People adapt to the environment they are in but people are creatures of habit, and they tend to revert back if they can.

I think for most people, deep inside, the core of a person doesn't change very often. This more static or more fixed aspect within a person influences the external behavior on the surface. If life forces a change upon someone, surface behaviors will change but the core will usually continue to influence these surface behaviors as it always has, with the same tendencies and preferences.

I think it takes a lot to change a person's core, and even the change brought on by some of these significant life-events will only be temporary.
-Becoming a parent
-Death of a dearly loved person
-Suffering severe, permanent bodily injury
-Strong forces applied to a person when they are very young and still developing (0 to 3 years).

While people adapt, learn, and use their knowledge, the core nature that flavors their behavior does not often change permanently and I don't think this moves easily - unless it is in a person's core nature to change with the wind - which would also be a fixed aspect of that person's core.

Good post Bentusi.  Thought provoking for me.  

I will use the poetic analogy of saying that people change on the surface like the tides, but underneath like the shore. They erode. THep roblem is I have seen characters on this server who seem completely unaffected by any event around them or that happens to them. This is that static stuff that I've seen.

For example, being executed. Being executed seems like it would be a huge event, even in a world where resurrection is possible.

[darinder]

This is one of those threads where I wish we had a "like thread" button - because, let's face it, I'm much too lazy to go through and "like" (almost) every post.

I studied media (waaaaaaaay) back in high school and I still hold to what much of my teacher told the class. "Characters must have character" and "the best drama most often comes from conflict" are two of her (almost word for word) truisms.

The notion of character flaws has already been brought up but one point I think is missing so far is how those flaws can themselves develop. They need not be there at the start (after all, adventuring can be life-changing); or they may have already existed in the character and be made better or worse by the character's time and interactions in FRC. This can be a hugely fun aspect of your character's personality to explore (be those developments good or bad).

I love to write. Hardy any of my stuff sees the light of day but just putting pen to paper (actually it's keystrokes in a file) often helps me to cement what's happened, is happening, may well happen. The best bit about keeping that stuff to myself is I don't have to go back and check my grammar or spelling (I don't have "English isn't my first language" as an excuse *grin*).

What I like most about RPing as against "just" writing is the pure unpredictability. After all, there are scores of other "writers" out there, each with his/her own character(s) in play, motivations behind all those characters, as well as ideas and plots in motion. Seeing the intermix of personalities, dramas, comedies, tragedies and even philosophies is a fascinating way to stay entertained.

For me, good authorship helps this even further but it's certainly not mandatory (in my opinion).

[Deleted]

The first thought that comes to mind on a discussion of good story writing and good role playing is the idea of "choice." To me, certainly, "role playing" flat out equals "choice." You cannot possibly have one without the other. This is what separates playing a role playing game from passively watching a movie or reading a book. In the context of a role playing game, that means choice by the player of the one who created and plays a given character that responds to a situation, not the one who set the situation. Characters reveal who they are by the choices they make. If there is no real choice going on, then the character(s) is/are not being revealed for who they are. A great story may be getting told, but in that case, the one setting the scenario is telling the story on their own, and the players who have no choices are just lending their characters out so someone else can borrow them to tell a story of their own creation without the active participation of those characters' players.

None of this is personal to anyone. I've put other PC's in positions of no choice with my own PC's. I've done it as a tabletop DM. I've also had other players do it to me in NWN, as well as having it done to me by multiple DM's in tabletop and multiple DM's on multiple servers in NWN. No choice is no choice, and it means there's no real role playing going on for the one who has no choice.

"No choice" can come in a variety of forms. It can come in a situation that has only one path to take, because no other options are even available. It can come in the "foregone conclusion," where a character *could* sit down and stay inside the burning building (for instance) if they wanted to, but they have no motivation to, and they're obviously going to burn to death if they do. It can also come in the result of being "out of the story" if any option other than one is taken. "Out of the story" can mean anything from having geographically left the area where any action is going on, being excluded from a group that is after a certain task, being killed out of the plot, or anything else that means the player can't keep playing in this plot if they take any option other than a particular one. (Not to get into situations where risk is taken as a choice and all the related nuances, I'm just talking about cases where the result of "out of the story" is obviously unavoidable if any option but one is taken.) 

"No choice" does not necessarily mean a bad story is coming about. But by the same token, a great story being created in the context of "no choice" is still "no choice" and therefore "no role playing." I think most of us log in to role play, not passively receive EVEN GREAT stories. Personally, I'd rather play a character who has a bit part in a bad story that is still full of meaningful choices than to try to play in a scenarios of no choice, even if the resulting story is great, and my character has a starring role. The best role playing scenarios really present meaningful choice, after meaningful choice, after meaningful choice, where the players are never without a moment to decide something with some significance. That's a high bar to set, and I've yet to run a single session, as a player in NWN giving someone else a situation to respond to or as a DM in tabletop, that lived up to that standard the whole time, from beginning to end. But I firmly believe it's what should be aimed at in a role playing game.

This is an idea that I've been trying to work into my PVP habits lately as a player.  I've a long way to go, but I'm working on it, to present other players with situations that provoke meaningful choices for the other player.

[gainreduction]

In this thread, static would be usually applied to 'stagnant' characters, who are really not defined by rich roleplay.

We're all guilty of this at times, I would like to suggest to everyone to raise the bar!

Think about your characters motivations. Why did they get an adventuring charter in Cormyr?

Was it to join the powers of the just, was it to find every scrap of knowledge that wasn't nailed down? And why?



I'll use one of my characters who I've fleshed out a lot as an example. I'll point these out with the thematic structure of the Monomyth, also known as the Hero's Journey (Joseph Campbell)
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monomyth#The_Call_to_Adventure

I'll try to keep it brief and concise! Here goes:
_____________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

Kenji Kikuta is a 27 year old male who comes to Cormyr from Fukama, Kozakura, in Kara-Tur. In a former life as a retainer, Kenji fails to protect his Lord whilst he is away on a diplomatic mission.

[The Call to Adventure]

After assassins take his masters life, Kenji returns and he decides to ritually take his life as is demanded by tradition within his feudal culture. [Refusal of the Call]


But at the last moment, his father Shigeru begs him to leave Fukama province. [Supernatural Aid]

A shamed man, Kenji travels with the only thing he has left, his own life and the heirloom blades that were entrusted to him by his father. Kenji follows the law where he thinks it is just, but makes exceptions where merit is due on an individual basis, or if the law is unfair. In Damara, after learning what he can of the common tongue, Kenji reads of Cormyr and King Azoun IV's legacy. He decides to travel there on the step forward to redemption (mostly in his own eyes). [The Crossing of the First Threshold]

Kenji starts adventuring in Cormyr after receiving an adventuring charter. He then quickly makes friends with a young Gorstag Redsteel and an elf simply known to most as Trenia. [The Road of Trial]

After a chance meeting with a master of the blade in Cormyr, Kenji decides to stay and study under Manshin's Ichi School of Combat. Kenji realises that this may be his own path to redemption.
[Vision Quest]

He gets word of his former retainer's assassins, who were sent by a Warlord known as Kotaro Washida. After Kenji has mastered the blade in every way, making it a true extension of his own physical form, he returns to hunt down Washida. [Apotheosis]

Riding with some of his best friends among locals of Fukama, Kenji defeats Washida. [The Ultimate Boon]

Kenji becomes caught up in the Royal Corps for a while but also remains true to his friends who he ultimately chooses. [The Magic Flight]

Kenji then returns to Cormyr to train some others in the blade. [The Crossing of the Return Threshold] He then returns to Kozakura to help his friend Arai and his sister Yuki raise his nephew.

Again, as a 35 year old, Kenji returns to Cormyr to once again share his knowledge of the blade and its tactics. [Master of Two Worlds]
_____________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

And thus, he has become an archetype of a hero in the dramatic sense. Clear as mud?

Enjoy the read,

gainreduction

[The Tallest Dwarf]

Jan 23, 2014 0:16:17 GMT -5 gainreduction said:

In this thread, static would be usually applied to 'stagnant' characters, who are really not defined by rich roleplay.

We're all guilty of this at times, I would like to suggest to everyone to raise the bar!

Think about your characters motivations. Why did they get an adventuring charter in Cormyr?

Was it to join the powers of the just, was it to find every scrap of knowledge that wasn't nailed down? And why?



I'll use one of my characters who I've fleshed out a lot as an example. I'll point these out with the thematic structure of the Monomyth, also known as the Hero's Journey (Joseph Campbell)
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monomyth#The_Call_to_Adventure

I'll try to keep it brief and concise! Here goes:
_____________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

Kenji Kikuta is a 27 year old male who comes to Cormyr from Fukama, Kozakura, in Kara-Tur. In a former life as a retainer, Kenji fails to protect his Lord whilst he is away on a diplomatic mission.

[The Call to Adventure]

After assassins take his masters life, Kenji returns and he decides to ritually take his life as is demanded by tradition within his feudal culture. [Refusal of the Call]


But at the last moment, his father Shigeru begs him to leave Fukama province. [Supernatural Aid]

A shamed man, Kenji travels with the only thing he has left, his own life and the heirloom blades that were entrusted to him by his father. Kenji follows the law where he thinks it is just, but makes exceptions where merit is due on an individual basis, or if the law is unfair. In Damara, after learning what he can of the common tongue, Kenji reads of Cormyr and King Azoun IV's legacy. He decides to travel there on the step forward to redemption (mostly in his own eyes). [The Crossing of the First Threshold]

Kenji starts adventuring in Cormyr after receiving an adventuring charter. He then quickly makes friends with a young Gorstag Redsteel and an elf simply known to most as Trenia. [The Road of Trial]

After a chance meeting with a master of the blade in Cormyr, Kenji decides to stay and study under Manshin's Ichi School of Combat. Kenji realises that this may be his own path to redemption.
[Vision Quest]

He gets word of his former retainer's assassins, who were sent by a Warlord known as Kotaro Washida. After Kenji has mastered the blade in every way, making it a true extension of his own physical form, he returns to hunt down Washida. [Apotheosis]

Riding with some of his best friends among locals of Fukama, Kenji defeats Washida. [The Ultimate Boon]

Kenji becomes caught up in the Royal Corps for a while but also remains true to his friends who he ultimately chooses. [The Magic Flight]

Kenji then returns to Cormyr to train some others in the blade. [The Crossing of the Return Threshold] He then returns to Kozakura to help his friend Arai and his sister Yuki raise his nephew.

Again, as a 35 year old, Kenji returns to Cormyr to once again share his knowledge of the blade and its tactics. [Master of Two Worlds]
_____________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

And thus, he has become an archetype of a hero in the dramatic sense. Clear as mud? :)

Enjoy the read,

gainreduction

Since Campbell's monomyth is my "Go-to" when considering my character's role in a story, I am going to give massive props for that alone. I will likely be writing my own response to this as well. Great stuff written in this thread by everyone so far.

[gainreduction]

Jan 23, 2014 0:23:48 GMT -5 The Tallest Dwarf said:

Jan 23, 2014 0:16:17 GMT -5 gainreduction said:

In this thread, static would be usually applied to 'stagnant' characters, who are really not defined by rich roleplay.

We're all guilty of this at times, I would like to suggest to everyone to raise the bar!

Think about your characters motivations. Why did they get an adventuring charter in Cormyr?

Was it to join the powers of the just, was it to find every scrap of knowledge that wasn't nailed down? And why?



I'll use one of my characters who I've fleshed out a lot as an example. I'll point these out with the thematic structure of the Monomyth, also known as the Hero's Journey (Joseph Campbell)
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monomyth#The_Call_to_Adventure

I'll try to keep it brief and concise! Here goes:
_____________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

Kenji Kikuta is a 27 year old male who comes to Cormyr from Fukama, Kozakura, in Kara-Tur. In a former life as a retainer, Kenji fails to protect his Lord whilst he is away on a diplomatic mission.

[The Call to Adventure]

After assassins take his masters life, Kenji returns and he decides to ritually take his life as is demanded by tradition within his feudal culture. [Refusal of the Call]


But at the last moment, his father Shigeru begs him to leave Fukama province. [Supernatural Aid]

A shamed man, Kenji travels with the only thing he has left, his own life and the heirloom blades that were entrusted to him by his father. Kenji follows the law where he thinks it is just, but makes exceptions where merit is due on an individual basis, or if the law is unfair. In Damara, after learning what he can of the common tongue, Kenji reads of Cormyr and King Azoun IV's legacy. He decides to travel there on the step forward to redemption (mostly in his own eyes). [The Crossing of the First Threshold]

Kenji starts adventuring in Cormyr after receiving an adventuring charter. He then quickly makes friends with a young Gorstag Redsteel and an elf simply known to most as Trenia. [The Road of Trial]

After a chance meeting with a master of the blade in Cormyr, Kenji decides to stay and study under Manshin's Ichi School of Combat. Kenji realises that this may be his own path to redemption.
[Vision Quest]

He gets word of his former retainer's assassins, who were sent by a Warlord known as Kotaro Washida. After Kenji has mastered the blade in every way, making it a true extension of his own physical form, he returns to hunt down Washida. [Apotheosis]

Riding with some of his best friends among locals of Fukama, Kenji defeats Washida. [The Ultimate Boon]

Kenji becomes caught up in the Royal Corps for a while but also remains true to his friends who he ultimately chooses. [The Magic Flight]

Kenji then returns to Cormyr to train some others in the blade. [The Crossing of the Return Threshold] He then returns to Kozakura to help his friend Arai and his sister Yuki raise his nephew.

Again, as a 35 year old, Kenji returns to Cormyr to once again share his knowledge of the blade and its tactics. [Master of Two Worlds]
_____________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

And thus, he has become an archetype of a hero in the dramatic sense. Clear as mud?

Enjoy the read,

gainreduction

Since Campbell's monomyth is my "Go-to" when considering my character's role in a story, I am going to give massive props for that alone. I will likely be writing my own response to this as well. Great stuff written in this thread by everyone so far.

Thanks for taking the time to read my post, mate

[cmwise]

[/quote]Hawk says
I think there's a lot of good thoughts here, definitely worth a read.

One thing that I will personally disagree with is the statement that no one and nothing is static. I disagree with this statement being as absolute as it sounds in that I believe there is a limit to how much most people will change.

The Forgotten Realms (and that real life campaign setting) are dynamic and constantly changing...and people adapt and change with it - on the surface. Surface behavior changes a lot...but most often the change is temporary and less often it is permanent. People adapt to the environment they are in but people are creatures of habit, and they tend to revert back if they can.

I think for most people, deep inside, the core of a person doesn't change very often. This more static or more fixed aspect within a person influences the external behavior on the surface. If life forces a change upon someone, surface behaviors will change but the core will usually continue to influence these surface behaviors as it always has, with the same tendencies and preferences.

I think it takes a lot to change a person's core, and even the change brought on by some of these significant life-events will only be temporary.
-Becoming a parent
-Death of a dearly loved person
-Suffering severe, permanent bodily injury
-Strong forces applied to a person when they are very young and still developing (0 to 3 years).

While people adapt, learn, and use their knowledge, the core nature that flavors their behavior does not often change permanently and I don't think this moves easily - unless it is in a person's core nature to change with the wind - which would also be a fixed aspect of that person's core.

Good post Bentusi.  Thought provoking for me.  

[/quote]


To add to this list only slightly as it is very thoughtful, head trauma/brain injuries, sometimes a religious awakening or experience.

[Deleted]

Feb 7, 2014 11:00:21 GMT -5 cmwise said:

Hawk says
I think there's a lot of good thoughts here, definitely worth a read.

One thing that I will personally disagree with is the statement that no one and nothing is static. I disagree with this statement being as absolute as it sounds in that I believe there is a limit to how much most people will change.

The Forgotten Realms (and that real life campaign setting) are dynamic and constantly changing...and people adapt and change with it - on the surface. Surface behavior changes a lot...but most often the change is temporary and less often it is permanent. People adapt to the environment they are in but people are creatures of habit, and they tend to revert back if they can.

I think for most people, deep inside, the core of a person doesn't change very often. This more static or more fixed aspect within a person influences the external behavior on the surface. If life forces a change upon someone, surface behaviors will change but the core will usually continue to influence these surface behaviors as it always has, with the same tendencies and preferences.

I think it takes a lot to change a person's core, and even the change brought on by some of these significant life-events will only be temporary.
-Becoming a parent
-Death of a dearly loved person
-Suffering severe, permanent bodily injury
-Strong forces applied to a person when they are very young and still developing (0 to 3 years).

While people adapt, learn, and use their knowledge, the core nature that flavors their behavior does not often change permanently and I don't think this moves easily - unless it is in a person's core nature to change with the wind - which would also be a fixed aspect of that person's core.

Good post Bentusi.  Thought provoking for me.  




To add to this list only slightly as it is very thoughtful, head trauma/brain injuries, sometimes a religious awakening or experience.

Change is entirely possible. No one disputes that. But, one's own outlook on the possibility of change does strongly influence the likelihood of changing for the better, both in oneself and in others. This is why, personally, I choose to purposefully focus on the fact that change is possible, so that my own outlook would not hinder me or others from making positive change. Sometimes it won't come out, but I can live with that. Slamming the door in someone's face every time they try to make a positive change, though, I could not live with myself for.

At the same time, to acknowledge that change is possible also holds a person doubly accountable if they don't change for the better if they ought to, because if they have a wrongful habit, then they commit the wrong itself as one offense, and also refuse to change for a second offense.

Change doesn't become permanent unless circumstance requires the new habit to be repeated long enough to form a habit, or the person is motivated to maintain it on purpose. So it's not a matter of possibility, that part is settled. It's a matter of motivation. And learning and change go on for a person's whole life. Age really isn't the factor people have historically liked to think of it as. It's just that if a person has been doing something the same way for 90 years, it's not so much an indicator that the habit is so naturally ingrained, but rather that it's a habit that has served it's purpose so well that it's survived 90 years of "behavioral Darwinism" that's weeded out habits that don't serve their motivation. (I.e., if the old, old habit didn't serve the purpose that motivates it, the person would have stopped doing that habit 90 years ago.) Add to that a "security blanket" factor and a simple fear of change, and that habit might be hard to change. But the day the person is motivated to change that 90 year old habit and realizes they can, it's pretty much gone.

[Deleted]

Btw, I just want to share this, while we're talking about change and habits and stuff. My grandmother, when she was over 90 years old and in a nursing home, started painting one day and made some of the most amazing paintings. She'd never picked up a paintbrush in her life, for over 90 years. But ... the two edged blessing of Alzheimer's disease, she forgot she'd never done it before, picked up some paints and brushes, and started painting like she was a practiced pro.

It's all in what you believe.

[PilgrimSoul]

Feb 7, 2014 13:31:45 GMT -5 @sharauvyn said:

Btw, I just want to share this, while we're talking about change and habits and stuff. My grandmother, when she was over 90 years old and in a nursing home, started painting one day and made some of the most amazing paintings. She'd never picked up a paintbrush in her life, for over 90 years. But ... the two edged blessing of Alzheimer's disease, she forgot she'd never done it before, picked up some paints and brushes, and started painting like she was a practiced pro.

It's all in what you believe.

That is an amazing story