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Post by Quadhund/Greenhouse on Dec 11, 2005 12:52:33 GMT -5
So Doug and I had a great surprise last night. The first thing i noticed was the swamp giant getting an AoO on Vind as he was firing his bow. I shrugged off thinking it was just due to it being 4 am. Then next thing i saw was the critical hit on him for 55 damage. Then when he got AoOs while trying to drink a healing potion (which didnt heal for its maximum amount), I knew hardcore had been turned on.
Now, I know one of the most basic rules of FRC is: Never expect things to remain the same. But I always took that to mean creature encounters. This can certainly fit into that category. And this change did not affect how we were playing at all. However, with a change like this (and it is a major change since DR has been removed), I would have expected some post on the forums, or a shout from a DM if it was temporary.
So my question is: was this a one time thing or is there a plan in place to move to this setting? I think it would be cool, but I assumed that from our last discussion, there would be some things that needed an overhaul to get there.
Cheers (and im not angry cause it was a nice challenge for the first adventure ive had in a LONG time)
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Post by moulinous on Dec 11, 2005 13:15:44 GMT -5
I am a true fan of hardcore but also am worried about it as well. Unless you have a ton of hps to spare, going anywhere can be a challenge for low level people and newbs. I am in the mid level range and play my guy as a somewhat loner who does adventure with others every now and then. But, i do hafta say that the low level guy i just started will hafta be always partied up as even buffed i could get my a$$ handed to me by the right swing of a kobolds sling. Just for my own knowledge, at hardcore the drops seem better but the xp is not. Should xp be better as well? are drops better or am i in a good streak? besides potions and monsters, anything else radically different?
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Post by DM Justicar - Creator of FRC on Dec 11, 2005 13:35:12 GMT -5
So Doug and I had a great surprise last night. The first thing i noticed was the swamp giant getting an AoO on Vind as he was firing his bow. I shrugged off thinking it was just due to it being 4 am. Then next thing i saw was the critical hit on him for 55 damage. Then when he got AoOs while trying to drink a healing potion (which didnt heal for its maximum amount), I knew hardcore had been turned on. Now, I know one of the most basic rules of FRC is: Never expect things to remain the same. But I always took that to mean creature encounters. This can certainly fit into that category. And this change did not affect how we were playing at all. However, with a change like this (and it is a major change since DR has been removed), I would have expected some post on the forums, or a shout from a DM if it was temporary. So my question is: was this a one time thing or is there a plan in place to move to this setting? I think it would be cool, but I assumed that from our last discussion, there would be some things that needed an overhaul to get there. Cheers (and im not angry cause it was a nice challenge for the first adventure ive had in a LONG time) Yes, we are on hardcore settings. Yes, we have made some modifications to make it work. Interestingly enough, we have been on hardcore for several days now. We are modifying things as we go, too in an effort to make everything nice and playable. On a personal level, I did notice you and Vind in the Tun Underdark earlier today, so it can't be that bad man. If something seems totally out of whack to you Quadhund, just bring it up though, I am listening to suggestions to make things better. Let me be really clear in this statement though: No amount of bellyaching in the world is going to turn us back. Most creatures that needed tweeking to make them hardcore compliant have been done, but I am sure there are others out there we have missed. If you have a productive comment, leave it here. Negative swipes and general comments of angst can take a walk (and will be deleted).
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Post by DM Justicar - Creator of FRC on Dec 11, 2005 13:40:36 GMT -5
I am a true fan of hardcore but also am worried about it as well. Unless you have a ton of hps to spare, going anywhere can be a challenge for low level people and newbs. I am in the mid level range and play my guy as a somewhat loner who does adventure with others every now and then. But, i do hafta say that the low level guy i just started will hafta be always partied up as even buffed i could get my a$$ handed to me by the right swing of a kobolds sling. Just for my own knowledge, at hardcore the drops seem better but the xp is not. Should xp be better as well? are drops better or am i in a good streak? besides potions and monsters, anything else radically different? The whole point of the activities of the last couple of weeks is to make the module party friendly again. We are not trying to ban soloist or anything, but we definitely want to see the return of the adventure party. Nothing has changed as far as drops and XP go. Our treasure system is a very random sort that will keep you guessing, and most people totally misunderstand it and often think it skews one way or the other, but I assure you it is the law of averages.
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Post by Quadhund/Greenhouse on Dec 11, 2005 14:52:10 GMT -5
No bellyaching from me, but be prepared for the slew of monster posts i am about to make ;D. And yeah we made it to the underdark, but that is cause we are SOOO awesome. (it was a good time for me to remember the usefulness of my bow)
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Post by kenny26 on Dec 11, 2005 14:53:20 GMT -5
i too am a fan of hardcore settings. when i saw those two bugbear heroes totally demolish my animal companion before i had a chance to register the amount of damage it was taking and act on it, he was dead... but i did take down the two bugbear heroes. i went a little further and as i turned back, without my animal companion this time, they both got a few lucky hits and drained almost all of my 70 hitpoints before i could click the hotkey for my potion, only to be reminded that they take attacks of oportunities against chars drinking potions. needless to say i died, and they were both rated moderate (within 1-2 levels of me, and there were 2 of them) so they should have won, and they did. i was so amused at the fact that the monsters were finally getting attacks of oportunity against me when i drank potions that i actually didn't feel bad about respawning.
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Post by Laurk on Dec 11, 2005 16:44:54 GMT -5
One important note. With the switch to hardcore, and the adjustment of many of the creatures, the goal here has been to bring balance back to FRC. This is no longer a fighter only server. Many creatures will have fewer HP and lower AC than they had before. This means the support characters like the archers and mages will be able to put the hurt down on them. On the other hand, the baddies are going to hit a LOT harder. That means, the fighters will no longer want to do all the work. Infact, they wont be able to. Depending on a well balanced group will be more important. Some of you will say, "but their just arent that diverse of classes to play with around here." Well, that may change. Now that a wizards spell will make a significant dent in an enemy, or an archers arrow, you may find more people opting to take support classes. Have fun, and enjoy the thrill you might actually get from combat now that it is no longer predictable and safe.
Laurk
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Post by Booze Hound on Dec 11, 2005 16:56:22 GMT -5
yea i was happy to see it too. I did notice my arrows making a lot more impact (finally). We did get to the dwarves, and it was a lot of fun doing it. It just threw me off when I got whacked for 55 or so and lost 1/3 of my health lol.
It's just been so long since Hroth and I have killed well almost anything that we didn't know that it had been switched days before. (pesky RP getting in the way of our monsterslaying)
Anyways, I like it, and am looking forward to seeing the changes it brings about from both ends.
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Post by DM Richard (Retired) on Dec 11, 2005 16:58:44 GMT -5
Maybe with the new challenge people will give PvP a break and try their hand at monster slaying again.
Nah
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Post by DM Grizwald on Dec 11, 2005 20:50:30 GMT -5
I'm a big fan of Hardcore as well. I had a big surprise when Orc Champions spawned by us while we were talking and criticalled me for 73 damage. Thats like fighting two manshins at the same time. YIKES
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Post by Booze Hound on Dec 11, 2005 22:46:47 GMT -5
due to a recent adventure, i can concur totally...
HARDCORE ROCKS!
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Post by soulfien on Dec 12, 2005 8:44:19 GMT -5
I love hardcore settings, but it's not totally compliant with all monsters here... On the way back to Isinhold from Redmist, I did 42 damage to a shaman of Grumsh before my familiar took it out with a bolt attack for 22. That's anywhere from 43 to 52 hp's for a single orc. For ANY mage that's a lot of spells to waste on one monster. The ogres midway between the two cities still took multiple spells to bring down- not near as bad as that orc, but not pushovers either. Two of them took out my stoneskin and when I saw the third one aproaching as I finally made one fall, it was time to go! Giving them crits only made them harder than they already were- stoneskin or no, an ogre's crit is no place for a mage to be!
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Post by moulinous on Dec 12, 2005 10:30:45 GMT -5
Is it possible witht the hardcore settings though for potoins to still work for a little better than 5 hps at some times. I mean, i like the monsters being on equal footing but i hate that when i used a cure crit wounds potoin that it healed only 7 hps while fighting a bunch of troll berserkers that respawned faster then you can say "Who the heck is this Raven guy?"
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Post by DM Justicar - Creator of FRC on Dec 12, 2005 11:50:41 GMT -5
If you have specific comments or gripes I can address those. I cannot address these vague reports naming only a creature type unassociated with an area, or any further information.
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Post by moulinous on Dec 12, 2005 15:09:43 GMT -5
No really gripes about it, i was just wondering if it is possible to get the potions to work a little better but if it is not, then no worries.
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Post by DM Justicar - Creator of FRC on Dec 12, 2005 15:52:15 GMT -5
No really gripes about it, i was just wondering if it is possible to get the potions to work a little better but if it is not, then no worries. Part of the hardcore setting is that potions will actually heal a range, like a die roll in PnP. You may get lucky, you may not. I can look into tweeking them a little on the bias once I clear a few upcoming projects that are neccessary. Like fixing our dyes and crafting, etc. So for now, no, I really can't just wave a wand and make that happen, but possibly soon, yes.
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Post by kenny26 on Dec 12, 2005 15:52:40 GMT -5
i stopped memorizing healing spells with kruhl after i saw the random rolls, and began to memorize more protection spells instead. the spell being cast is not a big issue, but i think the value of potions has been reduced significantly.
perhaps lowering the prices for healing potions could be a good idea, and maybe put potions of cure critical wounds in merriss' shop. i think the high level characters will need them, because apart from the random amounts of hp regained, you also provoke attacks of oportunity that can sometimes easily take away more hp than the potion gave.
apart from that, i don't think i have any other suggestions for now.
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Post by moulinous on Dec 12, 2005 16:53:54 GMT -5
there is not a dm wand? you mean guys have to do stuff too? how does hexer deal with actual work?*prepares for pianos, balrogs, and really big chickens of destruction all the while being turned into a penguin.*
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Post by DM Justicar - Creator of FRC on Dec 13, 2005 11:39:34 GMT -5
You will notice today that the healing potions at Merris's in Isinhold will be less expensive. This will be a module wide trend as soon as I can get to more of them. For now, I would buy all your healing there (until the weekend when most across the module will be cheaper).
Cheers!
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Kitiara
Proven Member
Player of Mooi, Isabelle Vantruy and Niamh
Posts: 103
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Post by Kitiara on Dec 16, 2005 9:08:54 GMT -5
Most creatures that needed tweeking to make them hardcore compliant have been done, but I am sure there are others out there we have missed. If you have a productive comment, leave it here. Negative swipes and general comments of angst can take a walk (and will be deleted). So...I wonder, how can we tell if a creature has been tweeked to make them hardcore compliant. What should we take as normal HC and what as uber HC because a monster is just a little bit too hard compared to his CR. Like yesterday I went out alone with my rogue and she barely survived the spiders in the cave with the stink beetles in the bramblewoods. I really thought she was going to die after she swallowed her last healing (and believe me she had plenty when she entered)....in the end luckily she got to beat that spider to bits and got 8 xp for her trouble...then she had to leave with her tail between her legs all poisoned and out of supplies So...is this what fighting on HC settings means? Or was that spider too hard for a mere girl all alone in the deep dark forest... Seriously...I understand you cannot give a general rule like " CR moderate should cost you half of your supplies and will get you to badly wounded" but maybe a general guideline...?
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Post by DM Justicar - Creator of FRC on Dec 16, 2005 10:21:51 GMT -5
Most of our creatures weren't tweeked in the first place to be "not hardcore compliant" and in fact this whole notion of "non-hardcore compliant" creatures is in reality, a player imagined construct.
We had a few creatures that we "beefed" up because they were being bowled over commonly and we wanted to make them "keys" to exploring a larger area. Kind of like living gates, that if you couldn't get past them, you weren't moving on. This experiment didn't work all that well, and was only applied to a few creatures anyway. The ones that I could recall from memory have been reverted but there may still be a very few artificially "beefed up" creatures that may present a tougher challenge than they should, and this is what we are referring to.
There is no possible way to guideline this. FRC is intentionally build in a semi-linear fashion where yes the module gets harder as you progress away from Isinhold, but not always in a totally linear fashion.
In the case you are referring to, none of those creatures are altered in anyway, save the addition of AI. You probably just rolled poorly and got overwhelmed by poison and what not.
The module creatures are certainly more dangerous now, but I don't think unreasonably so. The main thing is they get crits and AoO's and potions don't automatically heal you the most they can, and the randomness has returned... which always makes things more exciting.
I suppose the only way to tell if a creature has been beefed up beyond belief and needs to be toned down (and we are doing this because we want to for you, not because we have to) is that if you encounter them as a party, they "con" maybe easy and then they proceed to wallop you. I am sure this is going to cause an uproar because it has been stated repeatedly, and still holds true that CHALLENGE RATING MEANS NOTHING. I am just suggesting a method that might clue you in, so to speak.
Hope that helps.
Cheers!
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Post by moulinous on Dec 16, 2005 11:51:00 GMT -5
Thanks for making the potions cheaper as that seems to make them useful again. as for the monsters, me and meri were going through an area the other night and we were like wow, this hella easy we should not come back here again. and then we were hit with a dispel by a greater mummy and set upon by several more and the encounter and dungeon went from ho hum, to cripes, i hope i dont die. I like Hardcore just for that reason alone. a kobold shaman gets lucky on a spell and catches you unaware and then you are attacked by more , three of them roll crits vs you and pow! You are suddenly noticing that you better be swinging alot harder to get out of this. Keeps you on your toes and makes almost every area that much harder...
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Post by kenny26 on Dec 16, 2005 12:16:00 GMT -5
Most creatures that needed tweeking to make them hardcore compliant have been done, but I am sure there are others out there we have missed. If you have a productive comment, leave it here. Negative swipes and general comments of angst can take a walk (and will be deleted). So...I wonder, how can we tell if a creature has been tweeked to make them hardcore compliant. What should we take as normal HC and what as uber HC because a monster is just a little bit too hard compared to his CR. Like yesterday I went out alone with my rogue and she barely survived the spiders in the cave with the stink beetles in the bramblewoods. I really thought she was going to die after she swallowed her last healing (and believe me she had plenty when she entered)....in the end luckily she got to beat that spider to bits and got 8 xp for her trouble...then she had to leave with her tail between her legs all poisoned and out of supplies So...is this what fighting on HC settings means? Or was that spider too hard for a mere girl all alone in the deep dark forest... Seriously...I understand you cannot give a general rule like " CR moderate should cost you half of your supplies and will get you to badly wounded" but maybe a general guideline...? Rogues are not great fighters alone... Kruhl (and Jargo for that matter) never had much trouble beating those giant spiders because they are both melee classes (well, semi-melee, Kruhl can protect himself with spells and last alot longer than other classes). High fortitude saves, high hitpoints, good armour and good overall physical abilities is what it takes to defeat spiders. With good fortitude the poison won't affect you as easily, and with good hitpoints and good armour you can take more damage. This is only one example of how a creature can be a challenge to some, and nearly unbeatable to others, because the CR can never be fully balanced to all classes. Rogues have a different fighting style with different strengths.
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Manshin
Old School
FRC2 Build Team
Posts: 703
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Post by Manshin on Dec 16, 2005 13:52:31 GMT -5
The plain and simple is, any single character is going to have trouble now. Whereas you may have been able to replenish your HP in a fight, because you could predict the amount of damage you would take and you knew you could heal x amount per potion, soloing was not trouble. Now, thats not an option. I highly recomend... find someone to go with. Someone who can hold em off while you fall back and heal. A support character who can widdle em down before they get to you. There are those who will continue to solo, but you will find doing the same creatues you were able to solo before is probably going to get you killed. With any luck, farmers will be forced to fight severely under challenging enemies which yield less treasure and less XP. So, if nothing else, perhaps this will slow the rate at which farmers can powerlevel. As for the rogue and the spiders... you need a meat shield. You will be far more useful to a fighter now that he desperatly needs your sneak attacks so he doest take so many crits.
Laurk
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Post by Booze Hound on Dec 16, 2005 16:16:45 GMT -5
*scratches head* ya know it was taking me a while to figure out why so many people were having so much trouble with HC. Personally I have found it to have only made things easier in some cases and basically the same in others. Occasionally things have gotten really scary when a giant wallops me really good, but most of the time everything is honkey dorey. I am a ranged focused character, so i can beat dudes up from afar...but still. Al I gota say is start coming up with more creative ways to beat up bad guys. I mean I am still having no problems with any of the things I was killing before. Maybe save those acid/fire bombs. coat your weapon with some poison or alchemist fire, god knows those things drop everywhere, and instead of selling them for next to nothing, use them. THEY HELP! anyways, it boils down to this. If the way you used to do stuff ain't working...try something else.
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Post by DM the Usurper on Dec 16, 2005 23:34:08 GMT -5
I'll show you hardcore....*takes out all the weapons in FRC and replaces them with a spoon of cereal slaying* good luck guys hehe
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henny
Proven Member
No Comparison. Period.
Posts: 218
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Post by henny on Dec 16, 2005 23:47:01 GMT -5
I'll show you hardcore....*takes out all the weapons in FRC and replaces them with a spoon of cereal slaying* good luck guys hehe *clears throat* Meri made it through to level 7 with a butter knife. Now if he had been given a spoon I guarantee he would have dressed in a blue costume with a set of antenna on his head and his war cry would have been " SPOON!!!!!!!!!" . Ok note to self: 4 days till 30 years old. quit making references to obsucre superheroes that todays generation would never have heard of.
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Post by gambleor on Dec 16, 2005 23:59:32 GMT -5
THE TICK!! HAHAHAHA
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Post by DM Grizwald on Dec 17, 2005 5:28:54 GMT -5
I personally was a big fan of atom man...just thing of what you could do with those powers *smiles evily*
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Post by DM the Usurper on Dec 17, 2005 11:45:30 GMT -5
god I love the tick. the greatest superhero of alll time.
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