Zhiek
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Post by Zhiek on Aug 12, 2013 9:00:20 GMT -5
Im gonna revive this thread for a moment... Hold on.. *chants some mystical magical necromancical thing...*
Okay... So I'm trying to become a shadowdancer currently Im level 9 and I put my app in a bit ago... Im not worried about that... But what Im trying to figure out is... How would one train with manipulating shadows? Or how much skill would someone have in manipulating a shadow before they were to become a SD? Like Right now I try not to RP anything crazy, but my character's story revolves around his dead sister who he now imprints her memories into a shadow. And so far what I RP with the shadow manipulation is that I can just change its shape but not to drastically. Like if i where to make shadowpuppets I could make animals that are kinda Impossible for normal people to make... Like a 12 headed hydra... Or a perfect dog's head... I also have it so sometimes my shadow would do things that Im not doing.... and even sometimes still my shadow would be a silhouette of my characters sister...
Or is that much of shadow manipulation too much for someone who isnt a SD yet.
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TrueBlueOriginal
Old School
Kira Pashar Divine Temptress of Sharess 💋
Posts: 414
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Post by TrueBlueOriginal on Aug 13, 2013 12:21:40 GMT -5
Im gonna revive this thread for a moment... Hold on.. *chants some mystical magical necromancical thing...* Okay... So I'm trying to become a shadowdancer currently Im level 9 and I put my app in a bit ago... Im not worried about that... But what Im trying to figure out is... How would one train with manipulating shadows? Or how much skill would someone have in manipulating a shadow before they were to become a SD? Like Right now I try not to RP anything crazy, but my character's story revolves around his dead sister who he now imprints her memories into a shadow. And so far what I RP with the shadow manipulation is that I can just change its shape but not to drastically. Like if i where to make shadowpuppets I could make animals that are kinda Impossible for normal people to make... Like a 12 headed hydra... Or a perfect dog's head... I also have it so sometimes my shadow would do things that Im not doing.... and even sometimes still my shadow would be a silhouette of my characters sister... Or is that much of shadow manipulation too much for someone who isnt a SD yet. After having seen you RP this a little bit in-game today, I have to say I think it shouldn't be encouraged. Your shadow was moving and behaving in a way that did not reflect the character's movements. It was doing things (looking up my character's skirt) that shouldn't be possible until granted by the shadowdancer class at shadowdancer level 3 with such abilities as Shadow Illusion (represented in NWN as Shadow Daze) and Summon Shadow. At level three the shadowdancer gains the ability to manipulate shadows to create illusions out of shadow (in tabletop functioning the same as a silent image spell with a duration of concentration), and the shadowdancer's shadow goes all Peter Pan and becomes a constant companion to the shadowdancer, able to act and move on its own. Having your non-shadowdancer character (who is applying for shadowdancer, but isn't one yet) emulate these features by having your shadow animate and act differently than your own character means you're using class features you don't have. Prior to taking shadowdancer class, the character should, in my opinion, be focusing on things related to the requirements of the class, such as stealth and movement actions, based on the requirements of Dodge, Mobility, Hide ranks, and the Perform (dance) ranks required to gain the class in tabletop. While Perform (dance) isn't required in NWN, it's still a significant flavor aspect of the class shadow dancer. The level 1 ability of the shadowdancer, Hide in Plain Sight, uses shadows that are not the shadowdancer's own shadow, so there's no reason for the shadowdancer's own shadow to be acting strange even at level 1 shadowdancer. The level 2 abilities of shadowdancer are Darkvision as a supernatural ability, and a couple abilities also available to rogues. Again, nothing at level 2 about manipulating the shadowdancer's own shadow. It's at level 3 of shadowdancer that the shadowdancer finally gains the ability to manipulate his own shadow and other shadows, and in fact his shadow gains sentience of its own, even though it maintains the same alignment because it's still an aspect of the character. I'm sorry for going OOC on you in-game. That was probably uncalled for. But when you don't have the class, even if you're working toward it and applied for it, it's not different than a fighter who plans to take wizard next level, suggesting he can RP level 2 wizard spells (which are gained at level 3 wizard).
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Post by Munroe on Aug 13, 2013 12:35:54 GMT -5
Im gonna revive this thread for a moment... Hold on.. *chants some mystical magical necromancical thing...* Okay... So I'm trying to become a shadowdancer currently Im level 9 and I put my app in a bit ago... Im not worried about that... But what Im trying to figure out is... How would one train with manipulating shadows? Or how much skill would someone have in manipulating a shadow before they were to become a SD? Like Right now I try not to RP anything crazy, but my character's story revolves around his dead sister who he now imprints her memories into a shadow. And so far what I RP with the shadow manipulation is that I can just change its shape but not to drastically. Like if i where to make shadowpuppets I could make animals that are kinda Impossible for normal people to make... Like a 12 headed hydra... Or a perfect dog's head... I also have it so sometimes my shadow would do things that Im not doing.... and even sometimes still my shadow would be a silhouette of my characters sister... Or is that much of shadow manipulation too much for someone who isnt a SD yet. After having seen you RP this a little bit in-game today, I have to say I think it shouldn't be encouraged. Your shadow was moving and behaving in a way that did not reflect the character's movements. It was doing things (looking up my character's skirt) that shouldn't be possible until granted by the shadowdancer class at shadowdancer level 3 with such abilities as Shadow Illusion (represented in NWN as Shadow Daze) and Summon Shadow. At level three the shadowdancer gains the ability to manipulate shadows to create illusions out of shadow (in tabletop functioning the same as a silent image spell with a duration of concentration), and the shadowdancer's shadow goes all Peter Pan and becomes a constant companion to the shadowdancer, able to act and move on its own. Having your non-shadowdancer character (who is applying for shadowdancer, but isn't one yet) emulate these features by having your shadow animate and act differently than your own character means you're using class features you don't have. Prior to taking shadowdancer class, the character should, in my opinion, be focusing on things related to the requirements of the class, such as stealth and movement actions, based on the requirements of Dodge, Mobility, Hide ranks, and the Perform (dance) ranks required to gain the class in tabletop. While Perform (dance) isn't required in NWN, it's still a significant flavor aspect of the class shadow dancer. The level 1 ability of the shadowdancer, Hide in Plain Sight, uses shadows that are not the shadowdancer's own shadow, so there's no reason for the shadowdancer's own shadow to be acting strange even at level 1 shadowdancer. The level 2 abilities of shadowdancer are Darkvision as a supernatural ability, and a couple abilities also available to rogues. Again, nothing at level 2 about manipulating the shadowdancer's own shadow. It's at level 3 of shadowdancer that the shadowdancer finally gains the ability to manipulate his own shadow and other shadows, and in fact his shadow gains sentience of its own, even though it maintains the same alignment because it's still an aspect of the character. I'm sorry for going OOC on you in-game. That was probably uncalled for. But when you don't have the class, even if you're working toward it and applied for it, it's not different than a fighter who plans to take wizard next level, suggesting he can RP level 2 wizard spells (which are gained at level 3 wizard). I don't think I could have said it better myself. I would suggest not RPing class features you don't have yet.
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Zhiek
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Post by Zhiek on Aug 13, 2013 20:10:39 GMT -5
(this post is not angry or in a whiney mood. Im just trying to get a detailed answer on if and why my thought process is wrong.)
What I can't wrap my head around is how HiPs even works. You are able to manipulate shadows from 10ft away to suddenly conceal yourself. I would think thats some crazy manipulation of shadows. Something that doesnt JUST happen. Also From my understanding the Shadow manipulation that you talk about getting at level 3 isnt manipulation the shadow on the ground... but in actually being able to bring shadows into the 3rd dimension.
I thought about how HiPs could work over and over again without the idea of manipulating shadows... and there is just NO way its can work lorely. If it was that you ran into the shadow thats up to 10ft away then you would have to move into the shadow. But your not.... What HiPs does is make it so while you are being watched you vanish... as long as a shadow is 10ft away. So my understanding is that you have some ability to grab the shadows and bring in an almost cloud of the shadow that masks your position, allowing people to see through it, but not you since you can contort your body so that your sillouette isnt easily recognizable.
The skills you talk about at level 3 I feel are way more adavanced than what you say... Why would someone go from not being able to manipulate shadows at all, to suddenly being able to bring shadows into the third dimension and being able to make them physical and attack people. From my understanding the Shadow Illusion is not manipulation shadows, but creating a 3d image using shadows. I mean how effective would an illusion be if it was just litterally a flat shadow. "Oh i see a box on the ground but none is there weird." Instead of "Theres a box there in the darkness let me see whats inside." And then the characters shadow can now suddenly leave his own body and come into the 3rd dimension and harm people? Wouldn't the shadowdancer have to practice the whole.... moveing of his own shadow first before being able to actually take it off in combat sitautions?
So with all that reasoning on their skills I felt that one being able to slightly alter his own shadow as a form of training at level 9 (In none combat situations with tons of concentration.) ... would be a decent transition to suddenly being able to pull shadows not of his own from up to 10 feet away to conceal himself in a combat situation...
Heres how I RPed training to be a shadow dancer... 1-6 All about dodge and mobility and stealth (Normally rogue stuffs.) 7 starts to practice manipulating his own shadow. 8 is able to make interesting none normal shadow puppets. 9 Is able to modify his own shadow to alter its looks. SD1 Is able to grab shadows up to 10ft away to conceal himself in the open. SD2 Is able to manipulate shadows other than himself to form shadow pictures and such. SD3 Is able to bring shadows to the 3rd dimension. SD4+ starts looking intricate things about shadows and how to manipulate them/concidered an extremely skilled Shadow dancer.
If I completely got that wrong then correct me one last time and I will void that whole RP aspect until i hit shadowdancer. But I was trying to find a way to RP training as a shadowdancer in public without actually doing things I could not do. Because my understanding is that when you apply for a class DMs watch you to see how you RP and if your character is actually heading for that class. And The most reasonable thing I could find was able to manipulate his own shadow in a way that doesn't affect anyone. He can only change the figure of it slightly and make it do things that he himself could be able to do, like wave. It isnt able to stretch out (Unless thats how the light is.) It isnt able to contort into any other crazy shapes. It only just mimics Torkrin and with concentration can look like its acting on its own.
With my thought process it would be equal to a fighter who wanted to take the wizard class next level, to be able to cast the beggins of a cantip on his hand with concentration but unable to finish it or keep it without his full attention.
Hell, if you deem it necessary I'll even trash my character... But please actually reply with an answer instead of sitting there not replying at all. It doesnt help me and I really could use all the help I could get. Thank you.
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Fenix
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Posts: 2,183
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Post by Fenix on Aug 13, 2013 22:03:51 GMT -5
Im gonna revive this thread for a moment... Hold on.. *chants some mystical magical necromancical thing...* Okay... So I'm trying to become a shadowdancer currently Im level 9 and I put my app in a bit ago... Im not worried about that... But what Im trying to figure out is... How would one train with manipulating shadows? Or how much skill would someone have in manipulating a shadow before they were to become a SD? Like Right now I try not to RP anything crazy, but my character's story revolves around his dead sister who he now imprints her memories into a shadow. And so far what I RP with the shadow manipulation is that I can just change its shape but not to drastically. Like if i where to make shadowpuppets I could make animals that are kinda Impossible for normal people to make... Like a 12 headed hydra... Or a perfect dog's head... I also have it so sometimes my shadow would do things that Im not doing.... and even sometimes still my shadow would be a silhouette of my characters sister... Or is that much of shadow manipulation too much for someone who isnt a SD yet. After having seen you RP this a little bit in-game today, I have to say I think it shouldn't be encouraged. Your shadow was moving and behaving in a way that did not reflect the character's movements. It was doing things (looking up my character's skirt) that shouldn't be possible until granted by the shadowdancer class at shadowdancer level 3 with such abilities as Shadow Illusion (represented in NWN as Shadow Daze) and Summon Shadow. At level three the shadowdancer gains the ability to manipulate shadows to create illusions out of shadow (in tabletop functioning the same as a silent image spell with a duration of concentration), and the shadowdancer's shadow goes all Peter Pan and becomes a constant companion to the shadowdancer, able to act and move on its own. Having your non-shadowdancer character (who is applying for shadowdancer, but isn't one yet) emulate these features by having your shadow animate and act differently than your own character means you're using class features you don't have. Prior to taking shadowdancer class, the character should, in my opinion, be focusing on things related to the requirements of the class, such as stealth and movement actions, based on the requirements of Dodge, Mobility, Hide ranks, and the Perform (dance) ranks required to gain the class in tabletop. While Perform (dance) isn't required in NWN, it's still a significant flavor aspect of the class shadow dancer. The level 1 ability of the shadowdancer, Hide in Plain Sight, uses shadows that are not the shadowdancer's own shadow, so there's no reason for the shadowdancer's own shadow to be acting strange even at level 1 shadowdancer. The level 2 abilities of shadowdancer are Darkvision as a supernatural ability, and a couple abilities also available to rogues. Again, nothing at level 2 about manipulating the shadowdancer's own shadow. It's at level 3 of shadowdancer that the shadowdancer finally gains the ability to manipulate his own shadow and other shadows, and in fact his shadow gains sentience of its own, even though it maintains the same alignment because it's still an aspect of the character. I'm sorry for going OOC on you in-game. That was probably uncalled for. But when you don't have the class, even if you're working toward it and applied for it, it's not different than a fighter who plans to take wizard next level, suggesting he can RP level 2 wizard spells (which are gained at level 3 wizard). Honestly I feel like this is thinking a bit too much on the mechanical side of the game rather than the RP. The idea is that he is exploring the possibilities with his shadow, not outright mastering them then and there. If he didnt RP it until SD 3 than it would at its root seem like he suddenly just gained this intense mastery of a skill he never showed any affinity toward, and that is drawing this shadow into a whole new plane and using it combatively. If you restrict RP too much based on mechanics, than it would be pretty difficult to even begin to RP any class that you have not taken yet.
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Post by Fluffy the Mad on Aug 13, 2013 22:12:46 GMT -5
After having seen you RP this a little bit in-game today, I have to say I think it shouldn't be encouraged. Your shadow was moving and behaving in a way that did not reflect the character's movements. It was doing things (looking up my character's skirt) that shouldn't be possible until granted by the shadowdancer class at shadowdancer level 3 with such abilities as Shadow Illusion (represented in NWN as Shadow Daze) and Summon Shadow. At level three the shadowdancer gains the ability to manipulate shadows to create illusions out of shadow (in tabletop functioning the same as a silent image spell with a duration of concentration), and the shadowdancer's shadow goes all Peter Pan and becomes a constant companion to the shadowdancer, able to act and move on its own. Having your non-shadowdancer character (who is applying for shadowdancer, but isn't one yet) emulate these features by having your shadow animate and act differently than your own character means you're using class features you don't have. Prior to taking shadowdancer class, the character should, in my opinion, be focusing on things related to the requirements of the class, such as stealth and movement actions, based on the requirements of Dodge, Mobility, Hide ranks, and the Perform (dance) ranks required to gain the class in tabletop. While Perform (dance) isn't required in NWN, it's still a significant flavor aspect of the class shadow dancer. The level 1 ability of the shadowdancer, Hide in Plain Sight, uses shadows that are not the shadowdancer's own shadow, so there's no reason for the shadowdancer's own shadow to be acting strange even at level 1 shadowdancer. The level 2 abilities of shadowdancer are Darkvision as a supernatural ability, and a couple abilities also available to rogues. Again, nothing at level 2 about manipulating the shadowdancer's own shadow. It's at level 3 of shadowdancer that the shadowdancer finally gains the ability to manipulate his own shadow and other shadows, and in fact his shadow gains sentience of its own, even though it maintains the same alignment because it's still an aspect of the character. I'm sorry for going OOC on you in-game. That was probably uncalled for. But when you don't have the class, even if you're working toward it and applied for it, it's not different than a fighter who plans to take wizard next level, suggesting he can RP level 2 wizard spells (which are gained at level 3 wizard). Honestly I feel like this is thinking a bit too much on the mechanical side of the game rather than the RP. The idea is that he is exploring the possibilities with his shadow, not outright mastering them then and there. If he didnt RP it until SD 3 than it would at its root seem like he suddenly just gained this intense mastery of a skill he never showed any affinity toward, and that is drawing this shadow into a whole new plane and using it combatively. If you restrict RP too much based on mechanics, than it would be pretty difficult to even begin to RP any class that you have not taken yet. There's a difference between making a cantrip work and throwing a fireball. I think that's what TBS meant. Edit: To elaborate, think of it this way... you're good at sneaking. Then, suddenly, you can move shadows with your mind. There's a big gap there, just as there is with going from moving shadows to making them solid.
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Post by Rane on Aug 14, 2013 3:07:59 GMT -5
Im gonna revive this thread for a moment... Hold on.. *chants some mystical magical necromancical thing...* Okay... So I'm trying to become a shadowdancer currently Im level 9 and I put my app in a bit ago... Im not worried about that... But what Im trying to figure out is... How would one train with manipulating shadows? Or how much skill would someone have in manipulating a shadow before they were to become a SD? Like Right now I try not to RP anything crazy, but my character's story revolves around his dead sister who he now imprints her memories into a shadow. And so far what I RP with the shadow manipulation is that I can just change its shape but not to drastically. Like if i where to make shadowpuppets I could make animals that are kinda Impossible for normal people to make... Like a 12 headed hydra... Or a perfect dog's head... I also have it so sometimes my shadow would do things that Im not doing.... and even sometimes still my shadow would be a silhouette of my characters sister... Or is that much of shadow manipulation too much for someone who isnt a SD yet. After having seen you RP this a little bit in-game today, I have to say I think it shouldn't be encouraged. Your shadow was moving and behaving in a way that did not reflect the character's movements. It was doing things (looking up my character's skirt) that shouldn't be possible until granted by the shadowdancer class at shadowdancer level 3 with such abilities as Shadow Illusion (represented in NWN as Shadow Daze) and Summon Shadow. At level three the shadowdancer gains the ability to manipulate shadows to create illusions out of shadow (in tabletop functioning the same as a silent image spell with a duration of concentration), and the shadowdancer's shadow goes all Peter Pan and becomes a constant companion to the shadowdancer, able to act and move on its own. Having your non-shadowdancer character (who is applying for shadowdancer, but isn't one yet) emulate these features by having your shadow animate and act differently than your own character means you're using class features you don't have. Prior to taking shadowdancer class, the character should, in my opinion, be focusing on things related to the requirements of the class, such as stealth and movement actions, based on the requirements of Dodge, Mobility, Hide ranks, and the Perform (dance) ranks required to gain the class in tabletop. While Perform (dance) isn't required in NWN, it's still a significant flavor aspect of the class shadow dancer. The level 1 ability of the shadowdancer, Hide in Plain Sight, uses shadows that are not the shadowdancer's own shadow, so there's no reason for the shadowdancer's own shadow to be acting strange even at level 1 shadowdancer. The level 2 abilities of shadowdancer are Darkvision as a supernatural ability, and a couple abilities also available to rogues. Again, nothing at level 2 about manipulating the shadowdancer's own shadow. It's at level 3 of shadowdancer that the shadowdancer finally gains the ability to manipulate his own shadow and other shadows, and in fact his shadow gains sentience of its own, even though it maintains the same alignment because it's still an aspect of the character. I'm sorry for going OOC on you in-game. That was probably uncalled for. But when you don't have the class, even if you're working toward it and applied for it, it's not different than a fighter who plans to take wizard next level, suggesting he can RP level 2 wizard spells (which are gained at level 3 wizard). I seem to recall you going ooc on me a while ago. To hear you did the same to this guy isnt suprising..... Now as far as your logic you are entirely wrong. I know what happened and he was not rping that he had features he wasnt capable of.... He is trying to convey that he is picking up on skills to come. Again i entirely disagree with this statement and ut's implications.
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Post by arisnorman1 on Aug 14, 2013 3:53:23 GMT -5
After having seen you RP this a little bit in-game today, I have to say I think it shouldn't be encouraged. Your shadow was moving and behaving in a way that did not reflect the character's movements. It was doing things (looking up my character's skirt) that shouldn't be possible until granted by the shadowdancer class at shadowdancer level 3 with such abilities as Shadow Illusion (represented in NWN as Shadow Daze) and Summon Shadow. At level three the shadowdancer gains the ability to manipulate shadows to create illusions out of shadow (in tabletop functioning the same as a silent image spell with a duration of concentration), and the shadowdancer's shadow goes all Peter Pan and becomes a constant companion to the shadowdancer, able to act and move on its own. Having your non-shadowdancer character (who is applying for shadowdancer, but isn't one yet) emulate these features by having your shadow animate and act differently than your own character means you're using class features you don't have. Prior to taking shadowdancer class, the character should, in my opinion, be focusing on things related to the requirements of the class, such as stealth and movement actions, based on the requirements of Dodge, Mobility, Hide ranks, and the Perform (dance) ranks required to gain the class in tabletop. While Perform (dance) isn't required in NWN, it's still a significant flavor aspect of the class shadow dancer. The level 1 ability of the shadowdancer, Hide in Plain Sight, uses shadows that are not the shadowdancer's own shadow, so there's no reason for the shadowdancer's own shadow to be acting strange even at level 1 shadowdancer. The level 2 abilities of shadowdancer are Darkvision as a supernatural ability, and a couple abilities also available to rogues. Again, nothing at level 2 about manipulating the shadowdancer's own shadow. It's at level 3 of shadowdancer that the shadowdancer finally gains the ability to manipulate his own shadow and other shadows, and in fact his shadow gains sentience of its own, even though it maintains the same alignment because it's still an aspect of the character. I'm sorry for going OOC on you in-game. That was probably uncalled for. But when you don't have the class, even if you're working toward it and applied for it, it's not different than a fighter who plans to take wizard next level, suggesting he can RP level 2 wizard spells (which are gained at level 3 wizard). I seem to recall you going ooc on me a while ago. To hear you did the same to this guy isnt suprising..... Now as far as your logic you are entirely wrong. I know what happened and he was not rping that he had features he wasnt capable of.... He is trying to convey that he is picking up on skills to come. Again i entirely disagree with this statement and ut's implications. +111111
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Zhiek
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Post by Zhiek on Aug 14, 2013 7:31:50 GMT -5
There's a difference between making a cantrip work and throwing a fireball. I think that's what TBS meant. Edit: To elaborate, think of it this way... you're good at sneaking. Then, suddenly, you can move shadows with your mind. There's a big gap there, just as there is with going from moving shadows to making them solid. so with that post, overall you are agreeing with me more than TBS. The way TBS is saying is that I learn nothing about manipulating shadows AT ALL until level 3... then suddenly I can make illusions, make my shadow become its own being, etc... He thinks because in HiPs you can't hide in your own shadow that must mean you can't manipulate it. Which I think is actually wrong. I believe one can't use HiPs to hide in their own shadow is because their own shadow wouldn't be enough shadow to cover their body and then areas around the body to make the PC's person vanish. I believe the way HiPs works is that it uses your own shadow to mask your body, but it needs more shadow to actually mask your body with. ((Its like... if you where in a white room and only carry enough black paint to cover your body. You wouldn't be able to hide anywhere in the room. But, if there was a bucket of black paint somewhere in the room, you would be able to use that bucket of paint to create an area where you could blend in with as long as your body was also covered in black. Add in some mystical magic and *chickenwing* and boom bam done, you've got HiPs.))
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Post by iangallowglas on Aug 14, 2013 8:21:53 GMT -5
I think that what is being said, is that your going too far with your shadow manipulation at this point in your characters development. Your not a shadow dancer yet, so you can't manipulate your shadow in any way.
I tend to agree with this: "Prior to taking shadowdancer class, the character should, in my opinion, be focusing on things related to the requirements of the class, such as stealth and movement actions, based on the requirements of Dodge, Mobility, Hide ranks, and the Perform (dance) ranks required to gain the class in tabletop. While Perform (dance) isn't required in NWN, it's still a significant flavor aspect of the class shadowdancer. The level 1 ability of the shadowdancer, Hide in Plain Sight, uses shadows that are not the shadowdancer's own shadow, so there's no reason for the shadowdancer's own shadow to be acting strange even at level 1 shadowdancer. The level 2 abilities of shadowdancer are Darkvision as a supernatural ability, and a couple abilities also available to rogues. Again, nothing at level 2 about manipulating the shadowdancer's own shadow. It's at level 3 of shadowdancer that the shadowdancer finally gains the ability to manipulate his own shadow and other shadows, and in fact his shadow gains sentience of its own, even though it maintains the same alignment because it's still an aspect of the character."
Once a character gains his ability to manipulate shadows (at SD lvl 3), then I would begin the RP of manipulating my shadow, first small things, like my shadow moving a finger when my characters finger doesn't, or my shadows hair drifting in a breeze that isn't there. I may RPmy shadow and I being at odds with each other, because it has a mind of it's own now. I would gradually change my RP over the course of SD levels until my character had full control of his shadow (at this point it would be up to you how much you RP shadow manipulation to determine when you have full control).
I think this is where TBO was going with this, and I'd have to agree.
I'd also point out that Shadow Dancer is an application class, and one DM has weighed in on this subject regarding what they would like to see in the direction of RP prior to taking the class. If I was applying for Shadow Dancer, I'd be inclined to follow the DMs suggestion.
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Zhiek
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Post by Zhiek on Aug 14, 2013 9:46:37 GMT -5
All skills are learned through practice right? So everyone practices them before they are able to do them in combat and stressful situations. When you have a skill it means you can accomplish that in a stressful environment. For example if a normal farmer just picked up a sword... he suddenly wouldn't be called a Fighter. He would still be a farmer, and he would have to practice using a sword before he got good.... He doesn't get good at useing a sword by wearing armor... No... he trains with the sword right? So a level 0 fighter would be a farmer practicing with a sword.
back to shadowdancer and my point of view... AND PLEASE actually read my point of view. Hid in Plain sight requires the ability (and a quite advanced skill at it.) to reach into the shadow realm and manipulate shadows in our realm to mask ones self. That is NOT a skill you can learn by practicing how to dance, move, tumble, ect... Thats a skill you learn by practicing manipulating the shadow realm... Again... Hide in plain sight IS... IS THE MANIPULATION OF SHADOWS... How can one go from... dancing and acrobatic skills... to manipulating another dimension...
The reason why you need dodge and mobility, isnt because SD is litterally a dancing class... Its because you need good balence and acrobatic skills to contort yourself in ways to make your own silloutte harder to notice so that when you do HiPs your harder to notice. (The key point Im trying to get at is... How does one Transition from not ever touching a shadow ever at all.. to being able to control all the shadows in a 10ft radius... THAT JUST DOESNT HAPPEN. A person can't just go from... never able to conjure a spark to suddenly casting a pillar of flame down 10ft away...
IMO a shadowdancer isnt called a shadow dancer because he is a dancer first then learns how to manipulate shadows... But because he can manipulate shadows as if it were as easy as a dance. Please actually read my posts and not just stop at the DM's post. Specially since he is the only DM to post so far and didn't even give my side a second look over.
If someone is willing to explain how HiPs works without an advanced skill in manipulating shadows... then by all means I'll shut my mouth and end this thread now. But so far all I've gotten was a bunch of people going "Your wrong, because What a DM/I am a DM an I, said your wrong." But no one has yet to explain to me HiPs which is the main skill of which every other skill pretty much spews from.
Now Im not yelling at anyone, hell Im not even mad. Im more frusterated that this thread was made and named by a DM in a manner that Isn't how I would have done it. I'd rather change the thread title to "How can you Practice becoming a Shadowdancer." So I can get people to actually help me and have a discussion about it. Instead of all telling me that one persons explaination has to be right without even looking at my side or debunking my side. This is a debate in the most basic of terms. Yea I don't have as much pulling power as a DM... but I choose to challenge his opinion and gave him a counter point. The next step is to counter my counter. Not say... A DM can't be wrong.
All I'm doing is trying to find the best possibly situation that makes both sides happy. And Im trying my best not to just pester every DM ever about it. If they want to put their opinion they may. But in my book, a DM's opinion and a players opinion have the same weight.
If anyone actually read this post. Im sorry, I might have repeated myself a bunch of times... but I just am trying to get my point across and Im not good at doing that. Please help me! I just want to be able to RP something that makes sense for someone training to be a SD would do.
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Post by Pedantry INC on Aug 14, 2013 10:01:38 GMT -5
When my pcs are gaining a new class feature I tend to RP things that go with that feature the level before they get it, usually at about the 5k tnl mark. Then when they gain the feature I will rp them not being perfect at doing it for another 5k, or sometimes a bit longer. Easiest example for me to give: rdd gains at level 3. 5k before level 3 my character starts coughing a bit, gets a rough voice, 2k before level when she coughs little bits of smoke start showing up, etc. Because she's developing new muscles in her throat and in some interpretations, an entirely new organ. So she levels, spits fire at something, and that's all good. She's still not very good at it, and her throat is still all awkward, so for the next couple thousand she's still coughing a bit, and even a whole level later she still releases a bit of smoke when she coughs or yawns, because she hasn't mastered those muscles yet. In short, just because you have the feature doesn't mean you can't rp that you're still learning how to use it perfectly. Rping things to do with class levels closer to when you get them, and rping them being -similar- but not the same as, and not above and beyond what the class feature will give you, lets you ease into things.
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Zhiek
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Post by Zhiek on Aug 14, 2013 10:25:56 GMT -5
When my pcs are gaining a new class feature I tend to RP things that go with that feature the level before they get it, usually at about the 5k tnl mark. Then when they gain the feature I will rp them not being perfect at doing it for another 5k, or sometimes a bit longer. Easiest example for me to give: rdd gains at level 3. 5k before level 3 my character starts coughing a bit, gets a rough voice, 2k before level when she coughs little bits of smoke start showing up, etc. Because she's developing new muscles in her throat and in some interpretations, an entirely new organ. So she levels, spits fire at something, and that's all good. She's still not very good at it, and her throat is still all awkward, so for the next couple thousand she's still coughing a bit, and even a whole level later she still releases a bit of smoke when she coughs or yawns, because she hasn't mastered those muscles yet. In short, just because you have the feature doesn't mean you can't rp that you're still learning how to use it perfectly. Rping things to do with class levels closer to when you get them, and rping them being -similar- but not the same as, and not above and beyond what the class feature will give you, lets you ease into things. *worship* Thank you! You understand me! *Hugs* I love you... Finally someone who actually is helping me get my point across better and in a none discombobulated way.
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Post by iangallowglas on Aug 14, 2013 10:41:23 GMT -5
When my pcs are gaining a new class feature I tend to RP things that go with that feature the level before they get it, usually at about the 5k tnl mark. Then when they gain the feature I will rp them not being perfect at doing it for another 5k, or sometimes a bit longer. Easiest example for me to give: rdd gains at level 3. 5k before level 3 my character starts coughing a bit, gets a rough voice, 2k before level when she coughs little bits of smoke start showing up, etc. Because she's developing new muscles in her throat and in some interpretations, an entirely new organ. So she levels, spits fire at something, and that's all good. She's still not very good at it, and her throat is still all awkward, so for the next couple thousand she's still coughing a bit, and even a whole level later she still releases a bit of smoke when she coughs or yawns, because she hasn't mastered those muscles yet. In short, just because you have the feature doesn't mean you can't rp that you're still learning how to use it perfectly. Rping things to do with class levels closer to when you get them, and rping them being -similar- but not the same as, and not above and beyond what the class feature will give you, lets you ease into things. *worship* Thank you! You understand me! *Hugs* I love you... Finally someone who actually is helping me get my point across better and in a none discombobulated way. I agree with what levedara said, and I read your post completely. It doesn't change what I wrote previously. Go slow and build up to your class features, if what TBO said happened (and I have not heard you dispute that), and you were RPing that your shadow was moving around looking up dresses before you are even a Shadow Dancer, than IMO, that's too early. Remember, you asked for people's opinion, and your getting it. Your always free to do as you feel though.
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Zhiek
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Post by Zhiek on Aug 14, 2013 11:02:56 GMT -5
I was Rping that my Shadow look slightly different than me and could moves slightly independently of me... It couldn't stretch or contort in any direction to much... but thats all because my character Is focusing on doing it. He wouldn't be able to do it in any stressful environment... and he can only do it once a day... The shadow doesn't have its own personality, nore can it separate itself from me. The whole looking up skirt thing was because where i was standing made my shadow stretch to between her feet. And my character being crazy, thought it was looking up her skirt... I have been going slow and building up my class features. Going from late 8 (being able to make small modification to your own shadow.) to late 9 (Being able to have your shadow look different than you while still being humanoid.).. then hitting level 10/SD1 (Being able to wrap your own shadow around you and pulling shadows from other places to mask your position in a stressful enviroment). Doesn't seem to massive of a leap to me.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Aug 14, 2013 12:05:18 GMT -5
I think your jumping the gun. I like to build up to my goals too in RP. But that is playing up the req's. A Fighter moving into wizard cant cast cantrips, even half cantrips. An apprentice who has been trained and possess a foundation, can. I tend to lean towards a different learning curve. You can't manipulate shadows, because you are not a shadow dancer. -But- does being a level 1 shadowdancer suddenly mean you are gloriously blessed suddenly with the ability? its tough to work out when things are so clearly different between levels. When I change levels/classes, I begin the 'learning' RP maybe right before, but certainly carry it through the first few levels of the new path.
Think of it even comparing a 1st level ranger to a 4th level ranger, or any other class. theres a huge difference between the first 4 levels of ability...for a reason. At 1st lvl your not a farmer anymore, your a ranger. ...but you can still plant a crop better then sneaking past a goblin. The difference is that now your character has that bit of training to build on!
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Post by arisnorman1 on Aug 14, 2013 13:18:03 GMT -5
in all honesty i think most of everyone is basing there veiws off NWN mechanics then PNP. he has RP behind why his shadow is diffrent mindful he asked opinions but to tell him he is flat wrong isn't right. i could say the same about alkot of players i see and say they are flat wrong why don;t i? because i don't know the rp behind why they do things. perhaps we should also take into mind the rp behind players classes to just food for thought.
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Post by Munroe on Aug 14, 2013 16:22:50 GMT -5
All skills are learned through practice right? So everyone practices them before they are able to do them in combat and stressful situations. When you have a skill it means you can accomplish that in a stressful environment. For example if a normal farmer just picked up a sword... he suddenly wouldn't be called a Fighter. He would still be a farmer, and he would have to practice using a sword before he got good.... He doesn't get good at useing a sword by wearing armor... No... he trains with the sword right? So a level 0 fighter would be a farmer practicing with a sword. back to shadowdancer and my point of view... AND PLEASE actually read my point of view. Hid in Plain sight requires the ability (and a quite advanced skill at it.) to reach into the shadow realm and manipulate shadows in our realm to mask ones self. That is NOT a skill you can learn by practicing how to dance, move, tumble, ect... Thats a skill you learn by practicing manipulating the shadow realm... Again... Hide in plain sight IS... IS THE MANIPULATION OF SHADOWS... How can one go from... dancing and acrobatic skills... to manipulating another dimension... I think you're wrong on this. Being able to dance, move, tumble, etc., could very well be the skill you need to learn to practice manipulating shadow effects. In the arcane arts, spells have somatic (movement) components. In the case of the shadowdancer, that movement component is likely the skill at, well, movement. A shadowdancer's Hide in Plain Sight is a singular Supernatural ability, that doesn't confer other powers along with it, and as a Supernatural ability, which is, by definition, a magical effect, it either works or it doesn't work. The reason why you need dodge and mobility, isnt because SD is litterally a dancing class... Its because you need good balence and acrobatic skills to contort yourself in ways to make your own silloutte harder to notice so that when you do HiPs your harder to notice. (The key point Im trying to get at is... How does one Transition from not ever touching a shadow ever at all.. to being able to control all the shadows in a 10ft radius... THAT JUST DOESNT HAPPEN. A person can't just go from... never able to conjure a spark to suddenly casting a pillar of flame down 10ft away... I completely disagree. As all the skills required to become a shadowdancer are movement-based skills, movement skills absolutely are required to be a member of the class, not just because they help you hiding in general. If an amazing sneak doesn't have mobility, they simply can't do the kinds of moves necessary to be a shadowdancer, no matter how good they can hide. A shadowdancer's Hide in Plain Sight doesn't give any indication that shadows move at all. The person is just hidden while being observed. It's a Supernatural Effect, based on proximity to a shadow, not requiring any movement of the shadow itself. In fact, if the shadows moved while being observed, that would likely be a dead giveaway. IMO a shadowdancer isnt called a shadow dancer because he is a dancer first then learns how to manipulate shadows... But because he can manipulate shadows as if it were as easy as a dance. Please actually read my posts and not just stop at the DM's post. Specially since he is the only DM to post so far and didn't even give my side a second look over. The shadowdancer class isn't just called shadowdancer because he can manipulate shadows as if he were dancing with them, but because his skillset relies on movement talents, including the ability to dance. (In the case of monk shadowdancers, and some other more martial characters, I imagine this can be represented by doing martial arts katas ( Youtube kata competition performance). As was stated by TBO upthread, the tabletop shadowdancer class requires ranks into Perform [dance] while the NWN shadowdancer does not, and this is because Perform is a class skill only for bards in NWN. The dance and movement elements of the class don't go away just because NWN doesn't have the requirement though. The class is very much still based on movement and dance. If someone is willing to explain how HiPs works without an advanced skill in manipulating shadows... then by all means I'll shut my mouth and end this thread now. But so far all I've gotten was a bunch of people going "Your wrong, because What a DM/I am a DM an I, said your wrong." But no one has yet to explain to me HiPs which is the main skill of which every other skill pretty much spews from. HiPS works by proximity to shadows, not by manipulating them. It is a Supernatural effect that works on the shadowdancer, not on his environment. He has attuned his body in such a way, though movement and the study of movement, as to generate a magical effect (HiPS) where he appears to vanish, but only when he is within a certain proximity to shadows. He does not pull them over himself, or move them in any way. He doesn't gain those kinds of powers until later. Now Im not yelling at anyone, hell Im not even mad. Im more frusterated that this thread was made and named by a DM in a manner that Isn't how I would have done it. I'd rather change the thread title to "How can you Practice becoming a Shadowdancer." So I can get people to actually help me and have a discussion about it. Instead of all telling me that one persons explaination has to be right without even looking at my side or debunking my side. This is a debate in the most basic of terms. Yea I don't have as much pulling power as a DM... but I choose to challenge his opinion and gave him a counter point. The next step is to counter my counter. Not say... A DM can't be wrong. All I'm doing is trying to find the best possibly situation that makes both sides happy. And Im trying my best not to just pester every DM ever about it. If they want to put their opinion they may. But in my book, a DM's opinion and a players opinion have the same weight. If anyone actually read this post. Im sorry, I might have repeated myself a bunch of times... but I just am trying to get my point across and Im not good at doing that. Please help me! I just want to be able to RP something that makes sense for someone training to be a SD would do. Here is the information I SENT YOU ON MAY 12th in a PM concerning the class when you applied the first time, where you were asking the same question of me privately. I'm including it here because it still applies 100% and is also worthwhile for others interested in the class. The information I provided you in May is in-line with the feedback in this thread that TrueBlueOriginal posted, and I seconded.
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Post by Razgriz on Aug 14, 2013 17:35:18 GMT -5
I always imagined a shadow dancer moving like this while on HIP.
A shadow dancer "uses" existing shadows and avoids light so he can stay hidden.
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Post by Munroe on Aug 14, 2013 17:58:05 GMT -5
No, he does, but that comes later. When he gets such powers at level 3.
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Post by Razgriz on Aug 14, 2013 18:13:10 GMT -5
Ah, sorry edited now. In other words...
- HIPS is movement, dancing and acrobatics. - Other SD abilities that come later are ilusions and shadow manipulations.
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Post by Fluffy the Mad on Aug 14, 2013 19:41:11 GMT -5
Ah, sorry edited now. In other words... - HIPS is movement, dancing and acrobatics. - Other SD abilities that come later are illusions and shadow manipulations. Bingo, though HIPS is a supernatural ability to hide within range of shadows. So it'd be, more or less, a minor magical ability to 'cloak' yourself and vanish from sight- something like the dueregar's natural invisibility, except done through training. I may be assuming things, but most shadowdancers might use that instant and their inherent grace/skill to reach those further-concealing shadows.
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perspicacity
Proven Member
Those who do not want to imitate anything, produce nothing. -Dali
Posts: 196
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Post by perspicacity on Aug 15, 2013 3:01:14 GMT -5
Having been present for the RP mentioned above, I have to side with those suggesting that the shadow manipulation was "jumping the gun." Advancing toward an ability you do not already possess can be problematic and I empathize with the desire to "work toward the ability" instead of having it instantly materialize, but when you ask of others to validate and participate in such roleplay, it is expected that you have the mechanical support. I tried, simply, to keep my reactions IC, with my Illusionist simply dismissing it as a "clever figment." Due to the unusual nature of Torkrin's shadow being his sister, have you considered trying the same type of roleplay but with the assumption that only Torkrin can see the shadow and once he's gained the ability to summon a shadow that connection now makes the shadow material to others? That approach might work to "bridge the gap" and still offer some interesting and perhaps challenging roleplay, with Torkrin reacting to something that only he can see, emoting his reactions to the shadow rather than directly describing or verbalizing them.
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Post by mandene on Aug 15, 2013 4:15:29 GMT -5
To play the devil's advocate, and to defend the poor OP here -> he has said several times already, he wasn't controlling the shadow at all. So it's a moot point to continuously badger him for something he claims he hasn't done.
He roleplayed his shadow having a female form and moving independently of him. It doesn't mean he controlled it - it means it was not a normal shadow that a normal person has.
Having said that. I must say that I was present for some of the roleplay, and I decidided to split. Even if you maybe didn't intended it that way, Zhiek, it came of too strong. I felt bothered and uneasy by it. It was simply too much and I didn't know how to respond to your rp. Everyone thinks you controlled it, since you didn't roleplay not having control over it. If anything, tone down your roleplay of the shadow, and make it perfectly clear that there is no control of it.
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Post by Rane on Aug 15, 2013 5:15:01 GMT -5
Yea man, roleplay the way everyone else says to...
Does that sound ridiculous to anyone else?
How about simply asking him what he is doing, maybe shoot him a tell... Instead all i see is "hey man roleplay like this and i'm fine with it."
Honestly if you didn't understand what was happening i'm sure he would have explained himself if asked..... It isn't right for you to claim he made you uneasy either, especially when you admitted to giving up, and leaving rathr than asking.
If the man wants a shadow that does it's own thing i don't see the problem. Others roleplay having skin made of bone, red glowy eyes "thats me" even though you don't see it.... I've seen people roleplay that have a wattery celestial voice.... If the man wants an independent shadow then by all means... At least he is roleplaying up to what he is. Quite honestly i would like to see alot more wizards do it. Instead of "hey i rested after i leveled... Watch this new spell! BAM!!!!"
I would like to see threads like these die, I WOULD RATHER LISTEN TO A SPEECH OF MORALITY IN GREATGAUNT!!!
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Zhiek
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Post by Zhiek on Aug 15, 2013 5:38:33 GMT -5
I started this discussion hoping to get help in making my RP more interesting... What ended up happinging is that I got OOC'd in game about how I cannot do such a thing. Then suddenly a DM turned my post into a separate thread. *narrows eyes*. And now All I'm getting is a bunch of people telling me what I can't do, instead of giving me something else. I can see the whole you need a certain movement to manipulate shadows thing. But with my train of though i would still be able to practice learning manipulating of shadows considering as i keep saying... When you have a skill it means your profiecent in it to the point you can do it flawlessly in a stressful environment..
It's a shame really that people take the mechanics of everything so literal that they would rather everyone RP a boring Generic Character that follows the mechanics to the T, then see something new and interesting... Hell how I RPed didn't even give me any advantage to anything at all.. All it was, was a means to add something a bit unique to the otherwise dull RP that I've been seeing lately (besides events.)
Also. Why is this thread even in this section at all. This was an RP question not a lore question...
If a DM reads this, can you lock this thread now. I'd rather not have this thread turn into a 200 page thread about how one can or can not play a character. It was spark too much flame and Im here for fun... Not because I take FrC super seriously.
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Post by mandene on Aug 15, 2013 5:47:30 GMT -5
To my defence, raneearendur, it was really late, so I decided to log instead of breaking up the rp with going ooc on someone, even in tells, when things looked hectic already.
As you see I prefered also to wait several days in this discussion isntead of just going off on someone. You don't have the full information eather raneerendur, so while you say it's not fair of me to say what I did, you are not fair in saying so.
In fact I belive I handled this fairly. Since I was the one bothered, I decided to let him roleplay stuff, and removed myself from a bothersome situation instead of 1) giving him ooc trouble 2) standing in town like a bafoon 3) possibly painting myself into a corner if the rp would end up unsanctioned by the DMs.
My character would have left anyway at the amount of "weird" that was present.
No way have I told him to change his rp. I only told him to change how he portrays what is happening (instead of changing what is happening), which is not changing rp. So, think twice, write once before you offend somone needlessly. I'm not offended - just saying.
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Post by mandene on Aug 15, 2013 6:09:40 GMT -5
Unfortunatelly Zhiek, the game mechanics is what we have. And the DMs tell us all the time to roleplay the mechanics and our stats.
Unfortunatelly, the game mechanics don't always allow us to do things, even if they would have made sence.
You can't cast a half-cantrip when you train to be a wizard, but you can at least roleplay trying to cast one and failing each and every time. Or maybe roleplay managing small cantrips, the ones that are different from those that come with NWN. In my eyes it's problematic that you can't even lift a sword when you don't have that weapon proficiency, this shouldn't mean that I can't roleplay training with a sword before getting "martial weapon feat". And it's weird that dual weapon wield is allowed with penalty, while picking up a weapon you aren't proficient in isn't.
In truth, this wouldn't probably have been such an issue if you have asked the DMs permission for portraying this. Or even started this thread before doing the roleplay. As it is now. People have opinions, often much different than yours, and they will tell you their opinions one way or the other, in more or less friendly ways. And what you want to know have dissapeared in the banter over other things that should have been taken care of before you started this rp.
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Post by Munroe on Aug 15, 2013 6:15:32 GMT -5
I started this discussion hoping to get help in making my RP more interesting... What ended up happinging is that I got OOC'd in game about how I cannot do such a thing. Then suddenly a DM turned my post into a separate thread. *narrows eyes*. And now All I'm getting is a bunch of people telling me what I can't do, instead of giving me something else. I can see the whole you need a certain movement to manipulate shadows thing. But with my train of though i would still be able to practice learning manipulating of shadows considering as i keep saying... When you have a skill it means your profiecent in it to the point you can do it flawlessly in a stressful environment.. It's a shame really that people take the mechanics of everything so literal that they would rather everyone RP a boring Generic Character that follows the mechanics to the T, then see something new and interesting... Hell how I RPed didn't even give me any advantage to anything at all.. All it was, was a means to add something a bit unique to the otherwise dull RP that I've been seeing lately (besides events.) Also. Why is this thread even in this section at all. This was an RP question not a lore question... If a DM reads this, can you lock this thread now. I'd rather not have this thread turn into a 200 page thread about how one can or can not play a character. It was spark too much flame and Im here for fun... Not because I take FrC super seriously. I made it its own thread because I didn't think a potentially lengthy discussion of how to RP the class belonged in the thread about the class being available for application. I moved the thread to the Prestige Class Resources and Lore section because it seemed the most relevant section. It's where people have discussed RPing dragon disciples before, and it's also where the other shadowdancer threads are. Once a discussion ends, it may still come up as a point of reference. As for the name, I tried to name the thread as accurately as I could based on what I felt was being asked. I believe you should be able to edit your initial post to change the subject if you like, at least until the thread is locked. I'll give it an hour or so for you to see this message before locking it.
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Post by mandene on Aug 15, 2013 6:25:41 GMT -5
Sorry for yet another post.
Going back to one of my previous posts, yes it does look like I told him to change his rp. I didnt' mean it that way, I ment to tone down the portrayal of the rp.
<-------- *points at the picture* None-native English Writer here. I'm not always managing to say things exactly the way I mean them. So please be patient before going with a whack on me, I always try to be fair.
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