Pickpocketing

[828stingstingneo]

Mar 1, 2013 13:08:40 GMT -5 megascorpion said:

I also think that DM's should keep their eyes out for people using Pickpocketting in a non-ic griefing manner or the like and if this wasn't already in the rules, I'd be expecting for it to be brought there.

Firstly, is this really a problem here? I've never seen anyone use the pickpocket skill in FRC (or really any NWN server) except for. . . me. I've experimented with it because it seems like it's something that isn't done at all much less done so much as to be considered griefing.

Anyway, the one time my PC did pick someone's pocket, it didn't go very well, and a lot of reason for this is because I had no understanding of how the game mechanics would work. So, this thread is to give advice regarding the game mechanics (and how it could assist RP for both the thief and his target) as well as what people might like to see out of pickpocketing related RP.

In my one experience the game mechanics seemed to work like this: There's both a chance to get something from the other PC's pocket and a chance to get caught trying. I'm not sure if it's the same die roll or two separate die rolls, but in my attempt, my PC both failed to pickpocket the other player and got caught trying. What I didn't know was that apparently the other player only got a message that someone tried to pickpocket his character. He figured my character must've taken something, not knowing she failed to get anything. So, our RP was very much crippled by OOC misunderstanding: "Give back what you stole!" "But I don't have anything!" We eventually cleared up that confusion in tells, but it wasn't a fun experience for either of us and I haven't tried pickpocket since.

I guess it could be helpful if the pickpocketing scripts were looked at and the victim's message could also somehow indicate if nothing was actually taken. If something were taken, wouldn't the player get a message like, "You lost 5 GP." in his combat log (just like when you buy, drop, or barter something or have something removed from your inventory by a DM)? However, a player not expecting to be in pickpocket related RP might not know to look for that message.

Regardless of whether scripters ever consider that a priority, what can we do as players to play with the mechanics as they are? Is there anyone else who has tried using the pickpocket skill who might be able to shed some light on how it works and should work? I'm also fuzzy on what witnesses see. If a bunch of people are standing around in Greatgaunt, would each PC get a spot check on the pickpocket or just the target?

Also, what sort of RP would players like to see from a pickpocket character? Is it better to be snuck up on when you're alone in an alley? What would be a good way for the prerequisite RP to happen that way, considering that emotes cannot be observed if you don't spot the stealthy PC? Or, is it better to be bumped in a crowded confusion in spite of possible witnesses? Many real thieves do it this way, after all, picking pockets in a busy mall or at a crowded concert or other event. In fact, it's much more realistic to assume you'd be pickpocketed in a crowded place; in a deserted place, you'd be more likely to be mugged. Also, what about unrepresented NPCs (all possible witnesses, but also possible for the thief to try to blend in with) and the possible need for PCs to flag down a guard? Is pickpocketing something better done with DM supervision or is it something we can handle on our own as players?

Finally, if something of value is taken, the rule states to return it. This can be done OOCly, but the better way is to find an IC way to do so. Is there any general advice for making this return as fun as possible for the victim?

[Munroe]

The pickpocketing basically works like this:

Person attempts pickpocket. Makes Pickpocket roll.

Pickpocket roll is compared to DC 20 if target is "friendly" or DC 30 if target is "hostile." This determines whether the pickpocket got anything.

Person being pickpocketed makes an opposed Spot check against the pickpocketer's pickpocket roll. If he wins the opposed check, he knows the pickpocket attempted to pickpocket him.

Other characters in the area also get to make Spot checks against a pickpocketer's pickpocket roll to see if they can see the pickpocketer picking someone's pocket. If they succeed their rolls, they don't get any text feedback that they see a pickpocket occurring, but they get to see the character's pickpocketing animation.

So if you're worried about a pickpocketer picking your pocket, you can make it harder for them by toggling them hostile.

[darinder]

Mar 6, 2013 23:48:07 GMT -5 Munroe said:

The pickpocketing basically works like this:

Person attempts pickpocket. Makes Pickpocket roll.

Pickpocket roll is compared to DC 20 if target is "friendly" or DC 30 if target is "hostile." This determines whether the pickpocket got anything.

Person being pickpocketed makes an opposed Spot check against the pickpocketer's pickpocket roll. If he wins the opposed check, he knows the pickpocket attempted to pickpocket him.

Other characters in the area also get to make Spot checks against a pickpocketer's pickpocket roll to see if they can see the pickpocketer picking someone's pocket. If they succeed their rolls, they don't get any text feedback that they see a pickpocket occurring, but they get to see the character's pickpocketing animation.

So if you're worried about a pickpocketer picking your pocket, you can make it harder for them by toggling them hostile.

Thanks for that explanation, Munroe. I never knew that others present got to make the opposed Spot check.

Do you know if the engine takes line-of-sight into consideration? It'd be rather silly to make the Spot check when the pickpocket attempt is happening behind your character.

It's a pity that spectators only get to see the animation; if you're looking away from that particular area of the screen at that moment or if, like me, your vision isn't up to identifying certain character animations, you miss out on some potential (and likely quite dramatic) RP.

Finally, isn't toggling hostile just to increase the difficulty of pickpocketing a tad OOC? In my mind, it's taking advantage of a game mechanic to thwart a skill. A player may know full well that a particular character is *cough* light-fingered and try to "protect" their own character all while the character in question has never even heard of the would-be thief. Of course, if said thief has something of a reputation (epic or otherwise), it'd be easy to imagine people would be on edge around him/her.

[Syd's Blue Sky]

I've been PP'd in a decidedly griefing manner (once by me, the other time by both me and DM Hawk) twice on FRC. Once several years back when Hawk, back when he was still a noobie DM, gave me back FIFTEEN... HUNDRED.... GP that was stolen from me during a 20 something minute window. The offending party and two of their friends were later banned for unrelated reasons.... A situation that I spotted in game that led Kalbaern on a foamy-mouthed, mentally stunted rampage calling me a sack of monkey feces in this very same forum. Which was, Duh, later reveal to have exploited a well know issue, and proved to be 100% correct. No, he never apologized. I've since forgiven him for some reason.



My first thought was that it become standard practice, or possibly even a rule, that people hostile other PCs before PP attempts. But.... I'm aware that griefers don't follow rules, and I'm also aware that not many people take many ranks in PP. I dislike the idea that a "rp" skill like PP should require an extra +10 ranks to be successful, so I won't make my suggestion. I will, however, suggest that you send the person you've just robbed a tell if you nab an item.

Something along the lines of, "And you may later notice a Shield scroll missing from your scroll case" or something.

I know an FRC vet who firmly believes that PP is a skill taken by and only by OOC trolls. I also happen to think they're rather intelligent, and on to something... whether or not I agree.

[whitelancer]

Mar 7, 2013 1:27:42 GMT -5 Syd's Blue Sky said:

A situation that I spotted in game that led Kalbaern on a foamy-mouthed, mentally stunted rampage calling me a sack of monkey feces in this very same forum. Which was, Duh, later reveal to have exploited a well know issue, and proved to be 100% correct. No, he never apologized.

[/b][/quote]

Forgive the brief off-topic...but how does this have any bearing on "Pickpocketing"? I'm curious.

[DM Maleficent's Kiss]

This is one of those skills that is always a catch 22 when a player uses it. I'm speaking outside of mechanics here but...the person will usually do one of three things after they take pickpocketing.

1: They'll RP out their thieving, which in turn allows people ooc to understand what the particular character is about, however, most people hate losing stuff(obviously) so they will simply use ooc knowledge and avoid said character without any real IC reason.

2: They won't RP out their thieving so as not to give themselves away IC - The subtle thief, and best evil is the kind that never truly comes to light both ic and ooc. Regardless, this one could either be labeled a griefer or will have people complaining about them once they're found out.

3: Or they're just a true griefer

Any way you cut it pickpocketing never has been and never will be popular or accepted ooc by the masses as much as we may want or try to be IC about it. There is something in us as humans that cause us to loath things being taken from us and those who do such things are violators in most peoples minds by and large. I would even go as far to say that many people probably avoid pickpockets more than they would pvp in most cases because even when your character dies you can re-earn xp as well as gold, you can rp through the entire experience fairly consistently. When someone steals from you...it may not be something you can easily get back, you had no control over it necessarily, and it has a way of making people feel victimized. Anyone who has been robbed IRL knows the feeling all too well and this translates to a lesser degree in a rp world back to the person sitting behind the keyboard. It's a crappy feeling... so most will avoid it at all costs.

You may not be one of those people so if not then this doesn't apply but I am speaking in general terms.

[Syd's Blue Sky]

Sound point, MK. I know other servers who have implemented a control on PP/ It's done through a widget and send a DM message when used.......................... this is the kinda thing we don't really need on FRC. As screwed up as we are on the forums, we're all reasonably civil in game.

Good post.

[Lady Frost]

Lokarn was an excellent pick pocketer. His hin would RP bumping into people all the time but he'd only pick pocket every once in a while. It was very hard to know even OOC when he was doing it. If he got something good he'd say "Hey, I think you dropped this." and hand it back. Edit: (Sometimes the things he handed back were quite amusing. "Sir, I think you accidently dropped this cooking pot without realizing it." Two minutes later. "Sir, your cooking pot again." "...") Most people are good sports about it if you're fair to them and don't abuse it.

To speak about the IC'ness of going hostile. If you suspect someone is going to pick your pocket going hostile is your way of "paying close attention" to them and thus the DC goes up.

[walkonair]

My thoughts on pickpocketing and how I have (had) positive experiences with it:

- RPing = inclusive and possible to appreciate (LadyFrost's example of Lokarn is a perfect illustration)
- communication is important *
- knowledge/understanding helps prevent possible panic on "how was that lost" or even "is my account being used by someone else??"
- PPing NPCs as well as PCs impresses me
- deeper stories and RP about it also impresses me (though I'll probably never hear about nearly all of it!)
- if I make my spot check, has always worked best for me to send a tell and ask the other player what I saw (mugging, hand in pocket, etc), then type out my IC reaction
- flexibility is important (mechanically you can PP a scythe ... always good to figure out such IC 'what happened' *cough*physics*cough* together though!)


Two other things occurred as I was typing this:

- if you want to PP, save yourself a headache and know the server rules — someone sometime is probably going to grump ask about it
- continual, constant and no-apparent-reason crowding my PC will make them suspicious of yours, especially if they don't know your PC. Just like in RL, PCs have personal space too


(* For super sekkrit and never-known PPing, communication probably suffers. It's individual choice, but I agree with Maleficent's Kiss, it runs a higher chance of attracting complaints).

[Thrym]

What annoys me about PP is... the fact that it's a set DC and there's no way to defend against it.

I mean, it's both DC 20 to lift something from the pocket of a drunk commoner as it is to ... stick your hand into Camille's bag of holding, into one of the pouches she carries her stuff in inside the bag of holding without getting bitten by the dragon inside, and without her being able to stunning fist you in the balls before you succeed even if she makes her spot check, which she technically would get before you try to pickpocket her because premonition lets her see into the future and...

Yes, clearly these tasks have the exact same DC. *facepalm*

[Munroe]

Mar 7, 2013 5:43:09 GMT -5 walkonair said:

- flexibility is important (mechanically you can PP a scythe ... always good to figure out such IC 'what happened' *cough*physics*cough* together though!)

Is that still true on FRC? At one point Pickpocket was modified here so it wasn't supposed to be possible to steal really big stuff anymore. Sometimes things get reverted or changed without notice though, so upgrades to Pickpocket may have been lost.

[quelunia]

Mar 7, 2013 9:19:45 GMT -5 @ferrynik said:

Mar 7, 2013 6:14:40 GMT -5 Munroe said:

Is that still true on FRC? At one point Pickpocket was modified here so it wasn't supposed to be possible to steal really big stuff anymore. Sometimes things get reverted or changed without notice though, so upgrades to Pickpocket may have been lost.

Truth. Only 1x1 items this far. To be exact, 2 vegetables, 1 boiled eggs. Still, if your theft has been revealed, most likely you'll be beaten to death.

DM Munroe, I have had recently had a +1 Greatsword pickpocketed from my new main character it took two days to notice it was gone. As I didnt go adventuring in that time.. But, that might need to be looked into.

However, Thyrm.. The point of making the roll to pick pocket and your spot check isnt fair to say that at all times you have a premonition up. As we dont have core PnP spells such as alarm which is a pity... I think its highly unfair to state you are constantly on guard as that isnt the case. Yes, your dragon should also get a spot check in a perfect world as should bystanders. So, I could agree or offer a suggestion that if you are pickpocketing someone, have the courtesy to offer all those in range a "chance" to spot. Via a Tell to players that may be able to see the act. Not all will care, but it gives others an option to RP along.

[828stingstingneo]

Mar 6, 2013 23:48:07 GMT -5 Munroe said:

Pickpocket roll is compared to DC 20 if target is "friendly" or DC 30 if target is "hostile."

I know some of you have already given your opinions on this, but is it a good idea for the pickpocket to target someone hostile beforehand just as you must for combat? Heh, with the skill my pickpocket has currently, she'd always fail if she did this.

Mar 7, 2013 1:27:42 GMT -5 Syd's Blue Sky said:

I've been PP'd in a decidedly griefing manner (once by me, the other time by both me and DM Hawk) twice on FRC.

Maybe I'm not reading you right, but what do you mean there? You pickpocketed yourself?

Mar 7, 2013 1:54:48 GMT -5 DM Maleficent's Kiss said:

1: They'll RP out their thieving, which in turn allows people ooc to understand what the particular character is about, however, most people hate losing stuff(obviously) so they will simply use ooc knowledge and avoid said character without any real IC reason.

Thanks, this is very helpful since I'm not really concerned with "winning" so much as the RP. The people who want the RP won't metagame so hopefully, option 1 will be a win-win. To be honest, if the pickpocket is following the rules, there should be no concern over losing much. It'd be more profitable to spend time adventuring than pickpocketing.

Mar 7, 2013 1:54:48 GMT -5 DM Maleficent's Kiss said:

When someone steals from you...it may not be something you can easily get back, you had no control over it necessarily, and it has a way of making people feel victimized.

Hmm, I would think the cap on what you can take would help with this, but I guess I can see that. Some of my old vault characters have stuff that would be considered junk to other people but has sentimental value to them, for example.

Mar 7, 2013 2:39:16 GMT -5 Lady Frost said:

Lokarn was an excellent pick pocketer. His hin would RP bumping into people all the time but he'd only pick pocket every once in a while. It was very hard to know even OOC when he was doing it. If he got something good he'd say "Hey, I think you dropped this." and hand it back. Edit: (Sometimes the things he handed back were quite amusing. "Sir, I think you accidently dropped this cooking pot without realizing it." Two minutes later. "Sir, your cooking pot again." "...") Most people are good sports about it if you're fair to them and don't abuse it.

Ha ha, thanks, that's very helpful.

Mar 7, 2013 5:43:09 GMT -5 walkonair said:

- PPing NPCs as well as PCs impresses me

Hmm, that's an interesting idea. I know some servers have rules against pickpocketing their NPCs, so how does the staff here feel about it? Also, is this something you should alert a DM for before you try so the NPCs have a fair chance to react?

[quelunia]

This in my opinion is just another hit piece on what doesnt work for a few people. If a player wants to play and evil character.. thats doesnt fit with my view, if they PP.. that doesnt fit with my view... if they use Bigbies, ... that doesnt fit with my view.... Are we gonna regulate every single aspect of this game and try to get it within a realm that one can do nothing that their character concept would allow just because it doesnt sit well with a few?

This arguement has been applied to everything from knockdown feat to bigbies, IGMs was gimped long ago... Whats a mage to do? Whats a "Thief" to do if they cant PP? Lets be realistic things will happen in game that are harmful to our characters health, and their pockets... Yet, we want to hamper other players RP? Lets stop the non sence a minute at see that for what it is...

A 20 DC to pick pocket.. Ok rogue makes it... The "victim" gets a spot check. Too oppose the PP roll. If you dont have sufficient spot to overcome teh PP roll... you loose the item. So, as has been said about other things... If you dont have the skill perhaps that is by your character design... Perhaps you have better skills to focus on... But, because one persons RP is to PP and you cant stop it by spotting him... well that isnt a reason to tear away a skill they have put points into, a reason to destroy a spells effect... or a reason to make a feat worthless.

[The Tallest Dwarf]

Can a DM confirm whether or not the items for PPing are restricted?Seems incredibly unbelievable to me that someone could, say, remove a weapon clipped to a belt or scabbarded, let alone a shield strapped to an arm or back. And if this is already impossible do forgive me.

[megascorpion]

Mar 7, 2013 10:26:17 GMT -5 quelunia said:

This in my opinion is just another hit piece on what doesnt work for a few people. If a player wants to play and evil character.. thats doesnt fit with my view, if they PP.. that doesnt fit with my view... if they use Bigbies, ... that doesnt fit with my view.... Are we gonna regulate every single aspect of this game and try to get it within a realm that one can do nothing that their character concept would allow just because it doesnt sit well with a few?

This arguement has been applied to everything from knockdown feat to bigbies, IGMs was gimped long ago... Whats a mage to do? Whats a "Thief" to do if they cant PP? Lets be realistic things will happen in game that are harmful to our characters health, and their pockets... Yet, we want to hamper other players RP? Lets stop the non sence a minute at see that for what it is...

A 20 DC to pick pocket.. Ok rogue makes it... The "victim" gets a spot check. Too oppose the PP roll. If you dont have sufficient spot to overcome teh PP roll... you loose the item. So, as has been said about other things... If you dont have the skill perhaps that is by your character design... Perhaps you have better skills to focus on... But, because one persons RP is to PP and you cant stop it by spotting him... well that isnt a reason to tear away a skill they have put points into, a reason to destroy a spells effect... or a reason to make a feat worthless.

Wow uhm, no one has said anything about doing any nerf or rule ban or anything like it to pickpocket that is not already in the rules, this thread and every post in it(well one poster suggesting that toggling hostile should be needed but saying that this thread is all about that one poster's post is a bit silly ) is solely about how to use the pickpocket skill to make things more fun. (Also a mage is hardly not a mage without Bigby's forceful hand, and well, yes, modifying and regulating NWN to make up for its bad parts and to make it a better game is something that I think we should do where needed/possible). And if you're just talking about the rule that is already there, well, if you think that players with a high pickpocket skill should be able to completely strip other people's inventory by standing beside them and spamming the skill on them uhm, I honestly think you are quite crazy and I'm very glad you're not in charge of the server

Now to answer the OP, while that sentance of mine is taking a bit out of context(I just used it as an example of a rule that regulates a class speciality that already exists and is necessary) I do not think it is a massive problem, though I have seen it broken a few times and the potential of griefing with pickpocket is certainly there.

As for how to make it fun, well when you're not getting caught it's almost always not very fun at all for anyone else that doesn't know what you're doing if you don't emote anything, so that's always a start, RP bumping in to people and the like. The only time one of my characters used the skill(and he doesn't actually have it) I RPed it with text only, stealing a specific item that he knew where it was (and somehow got a successful roll too ), so that is also a potential use for it, that is fun especially as the other player will know OOCly what is going on.

[magiuss]

Only problem i can see with pickpocket is that the rules state tha anything under 500 is fair game.. anything above isnt..

To the problem.. my chairs carrys things that is worth 1 gp Like magius spellbook/journal is a item i asked for a Dm to create to me for role play resons only that journal/spellbook is worth alot more then 500 gold coins in role play to magius... but that is fair game for a thief to steal and go sell if he wants to... thats kinda the only problem i have with this skill.. i have both been the victim and the theif..

a good thing to do no matter what.. after you have role played stealing stuff from people.. i always sent a tell with a list over the various items he would be missing when next he was searching his bags for them.. giving them a chance to tell me if some of these things were of certain value beyond the price i could get at the vendor.

[FORSETIS]

Im at work on my phone so i have not read any of the posts. But personally id like for pick pocket to only take coin. That way we don't have to worry about taking items that are to valuable.

[The Tallest Dwarf]

Mar 7, 2013 15:19:43 GMT -5 FORSETIS said:

Im at work on my phone so i have not read any of the posts. But personally id like for pick pocket to only take coin. That way we don't have to worry about taking items that are to valuable.

+1

*Also awaits DM response to his question in the thread*

[Munroe]

Mar 7, 2013 12:14:07 GMT -5 The Tallest Dwarf said:

Can a DM confirm whether or not the items for PPing are restricted?Seems incredibly unbelievable to me that someone could, say, remove a weapon clipped to a belt or scabbarded, let alone a shield strapped to an arm or back. And if this is already impossible do forgive me.

What do you mean clipped to a belt or scabbarded?

The only real distinction is "in the inventory" or "equipped" in the game engine. I don't think you can steal equipped items, no, but NWN doesn't have a *clip to belt* or *stow in scabbard* option distinct from the item being in the inventory.

It's been far to long since it was modified and I don't remember exactly how it was changed off the top of my head, but I know it was, at the time it was modified, limited to certain "types" of items.

I wouldn't mind it being changed to straight gp robbery myself though.

[kalbaern]

Mar 7, 2013 1:27:42 GMT -5 Syd's Blue Sky said:

I've been PP'd in a decidedly griefing manner (once by me, the other time by both me and DM Hawk) twice on FRC. Once several years back when Hawk, back when he was still a noobie DM, gave me back FIFTEEN... HUNDRED.... GP that was stolen from me during a 20 something minute window. The offending party and two of their friends were later banned for unrelated reasons.... A situation that I spotted in game that led Kalbaern on a foamy-mouthed, mentally stunted rampage calling me a sack of monkey feces in this very same forum. Which was, Duh, later reveal to have exploited a well know issue, and proved to be 100% correct. No, he never apologized. I've since forgiven him for some reason.

Exagerate much?

I've called "sydsbluesky" many things in the past, but never what he claims above and not for the reasons he has stated. Him bringing it up in public also counters his own claims of forgiveness. *shrugs* So long as he's not planning to be a Marriage or Anger Management Counselor, I think the world is still safe.

As far as PPing goes, myself and more than a few others here over the years have had to contend with Non-RPed PPing and it's quite frustrating. A few times, it's been from DMs and not just players as well. I've not seen or heard of any DMs doing it in the past couple of years, but prior to that, it wasn't unknown to have a DM -remove- items/wealth at random from some players they believed "had to much" and often without any notice to the player(s) involved. Thankfully, its a practice none seem to employ nowadays.

Players however, again, nothing I've seen recently, thankfully, have at times been ... well ... idiots, when it comes to PPing. On several occasions, I've had to put up with PCs trying to PP my own PC, fail, get noticed, be told to scram and just standing there, making attempt after attempt. Then, whine when they suddenly find themselves "dead". During these attmpts, not one emote or spoken word was used either, it was just -click-, fail, -click-, fail, -click- ... dead. If you attempt and fail, then get warned ICly to move on and instead keep trying, don't complain when you die suddenly, whether you were toggled hostile or not first. If you're so stupid to just stand there and try and fail and try and fail, your hand in my pocket is taken as an assault made by yourself. Your Non-RPed mechanical attempts grant myself and others the same purely mechanically butt-whupping too.

The only PC I've ever seen RP PPing someone, never angered me when they swiped a few coins or a potion or three. "Hrothgar" (played by "greenhouse"), not the one most know now, but another that used to practice banditry in years long past here, was a master at it and his RP made it worthwhile. He would also move on after a success or two and not pick on a single target constantly. He also kept track of his "marks" and would avoid you for a week or two if he'd "hit" you recently. Never since have I seen someone play a bandit/rogue half as well as he had.

Personally, I think Pickpocketting is under utilised. Thankfully so at times too though. I don't mind if the PPer sidles up to me emoting *moves up next to (insert PC name)* or *stands uncomfortably close to (insert PC name)* or anything else to acknowledge their proximity. Just don't walk up and -click-, -click-, click-, repeatedly without any interaction. If you do, I myself will make two clicks in response (equip weap and target idiot).

[walkonair]

Mar 7, 2013 6:14:40 GMT -5 Munroe said:

Mar 7, 2013 5:43:09 GMT -5 walkonair said:

- flexibility is important (mechanically you can PP a scythe ... always good to figure out such IC 'what happened' *cough*physics*cough* together though!)

Is that still true on FRC? At one point Pickpocket was modified here so it wasn't supposed to be possible to steal really big stuff anymore. Sometimes things get reverted or changed without notice though, so upgrades to Pickpocket may have been lost.

Oh super! I've only had limited personal experience with PP (mainly on another server). Such upgrade is great

[quelunia]

megascorpion, I am not saying what I said being angery... As to your comment about me not being a builder and your glad.. well... That is your opinion.. Just as I voiced my opinion.

If it was taken I am advocating a rogue be able to rob someone blind, forgiven me for not being so clear. I do not feel that to be the case. I just mean we should only be doing it once or twice a week to the same player anythign over 500 gold returned, and if the script isnt working properly and you get something bigger than one x one give it back. But statements like what Thyrm made and a few others asking for tweaks to be made.. I think are rediculous. There are so many topics going right now about this affects me badly I want it changed... This is just another one.

The deal is non hostile DC 20 against the rogues PP roll, or 30 DC vs PP roll... This only determines if you where able to get ahold of an item, then an opposed Spot check is rolled vs the PP roll which is the DC for the Spot check. Now, a character with a good spot roll will see the hand in the cookie jar... If the player has no spot or little spot then they miss it completely. As I said before, if your a good sport you will offer those around you an option to roll their own spot vs your PP roll. That is an option, and as Kalbaern said, if your not RPing the encounter of PP... You are in the wrong to begin with.

And Kal.. Ya I loved the Bandits lol Hroth was great fun to play along with... He would offer "protection" To weary travellers also... HAHA>

[darinder]

I believe there's potential for player (especially newcomers) misunderstanding of the rules. Theft is detailed in the PvP Rules and Guidelines thread.

Is pickpocketing considered a form of PvP? If so, it should never face a DC 20 check as the target must be toggled hostile beforehand. If not, how about splitting that thread (Theft has its own IG journal entry) into two?

Either way, I've only ever been pickpocketed a few times (other than some fairly intensive testing of the mechanics last night) and it's usually been fine (only ever had one of those "sticky fingers with no RP" type happenings). However, I think the idea of making it a gold-only theft could well stop a lot of angry accusations.

[The Tallest Dwarf]

I was using "scabbarded" and "clipped to a belt" figuratively which I thought was obvious. I was applying it to items that would be immediately noticeable to the person being robbed.


Again, I think limiting to GP theft is a reasonable change to make, and even then a limit on the amount to the tune of 500-1,000gp perhaps.

[Munroe]

Mar 7, 2013 17:58:31 GMT -5 The Tallest Dwarf said:

I was using "scabbarded" and "clipped to a belt" figuratively which I thought was obvious. I was applying it to items that would be immediately noticeable to the person being robbed.


Again, I think limiting to GP theft is a reasonable change to make, and even then a limit on the amount to the tune of 500-1,000gp perhaps.

Things on a belt of scabbard might be the easiest to notice, but they would also be the easiest to grab.

Pickpocket has other limitations in place in the rules (value limits, and a general "no griefing" by repetition rule), so it isn't treated as a PVP attack itself. It doesn't deal health damage or immobilize a target or provoke an automatic retaliatory attack (such as the Taunt action does), so there's no necessity of toggling hostile first before pickpocketing.

If, however, you're suspicious of a possible pickpocket nearby, toggling them hostile would be taking a proactive mechanical defense (ie watching them like a hawk), and it is within the rules to toggle anyone hostile at any time.

As for a change to a pickpocket only getting gold instead of items, I wouldn't mind seeing that, or maybe gold and potions (because I like the idea of a pickpocket being able to steal health potions from an adversary), but I'd really just like to know that the current (or former) changes to pickpocket are still functional.

[Thrym]

Mar 7, 2013 16:40:17 GMT -5 quelunia said:

But statements like what Thyrm made and a few others asking for tweaks to be made.. I think are rediculous. There are so many topics going right now about this affects me badly I want it changed... This is just another one.

Uh, what? I made one minor comment about flat DCs for a task which's difficulty can vary tremendously being silly. The idea of asking for tweaks never even crossed my mind, seeing as with NWN's inventory system it's completely impossible to create usable pick pocket mechanics, and if it was it'd be too much work for something I seriously couldn't care less about.

So if you want to single out someone from 'the other side', please, find someone who actually wants tweaks instead of randomly picking me.

[The Tallest Dwarf]

Mar 7, 2013 19:00:34 GMT -5 Munroe said:

Mar 7, 2013 17:58:31 GMT -5 The Tallest Dwarf said:

I was using "scabbarded" and "clipped to a belt" figuratively which I thought was obvious. I was applying it to items that would be immediately noticeable to the person being robbed.


Again, I think limiting to GP theft is a reasonable change to make, and even then a limit on the amount to the tune of 500-1,000gp perhaps.

Things on a belt of scabbard might be the easiest to notice, but they would also be the easiest to grab.

Not to nitpick but I think you're misunderstanding:I specifically meant something like a medium-sized weapon in a scabbard or otherwise harnessed to a belt, back brace,etc that someone successfully "pickpockets" while the person wearing it apparently does not feel the weight difference from the lost item and also somehow fails to notice the person that just bumped into them is walking off with an oddly shaped thing beneath their cloak.

[Razgriz]

Hmm I wonder if this is how Holances ogre skin gloves +1 and his adamantine plate "dissapeared"...I even started to blame Velisario's collection of bags.

[Munroe]

Mar 7, 2013 19:58:39 GMT -5 The Tallest Dwarf said:

Mar 7, 2013 19:00:34 GMT -5 Munroe said:

Things on a belt of scabbard might be the easiest to notice, but they would also be the easiest to grab.

Not to nitpick but I think you're misunderstanding:I specifically meant something like a medium-sized weapon in a scabbard or otherwise harnessed to a belt, back brace,etc that someone successfully "pickpockets" while the person wearing it apparently does not feel the weight difference from the lost item and also somehow fails to notice the person that just bumped into them is walking off with an oddly shaped thing beneath their cloak.

At one point there were modifications made to Pickpocket to prevent the theft of larger items, but I don't know if those modifications are still in place.