Pick on a class / feat / tactic

[holyredeemer]

I would just like to get a clear idea on what people expect to happen when they decide to start a thread that picks on a class / feat / tactic?

Is it thought that the builders / DMs will either script changes to address the perceived advantages or lay down smiteable/bannable rules to prohibit them?

Yes, some classes / feats / tactics are better and/or work better than others. Does that mean everyone wants to play these classes or use these feats? No. We all have our own ideas on what makes it fun for us to play.

I haven't posted as much as others on the forums, but I feel that this is a cyclical trend where there are posts picking on feats/classes or tactics and I just don't see how it is constructive.

(I'm sure others could list more examples of previous postings that fit this category, but off the top of my head: stealth vs true sight, bigbys hands, IGMS, Time stop, use of summons, knockdown, disarm, stun, domination, sneak attack, death attack, implosion, etc.....)

[megascorpion]

Uhm... that.. varies? I mean someone asking to nerf bigbies is quite different to someone asking people to roleplay buffing up before a boss more sensibly or to RP pickpocketing.

Personally, while I know that NWN and D&D in general is unbalanced beyond hope, I do think there are some rather particular things that could be mechanically nerfed or buffed to make the game more balanced and enjoyable, and thus I'd want that to happen heh. I also think there are some class abilities some people should use more sensibly(For example not standing stealthed in broad daylight right in front someone and listening to him whisper with his friends).

Edit: If I wasn't clear enough, there are some things I think could be nerfed mechanically(such as making Bigby's Forceful hand just last 3 rounds or have a more sensible save), others who want something done about this particular thing might have a different opinion on what should be done, anyhow, if I made a thread about this or posted about this it would indeed be in the hope of changing the scripts for the spell, but I would probably be alright with some kind of compromise where bigby's are not allowed to be used in certain circumstances(such as pvp). Note I am not making this suggestion here, just using it as an example

I also think that DM's should keep their eyes out for people using Pickpocketting in a non-ic griefing manner or the like and if this wasn't already in the rules, I'd be expecting for it to be brought there.

In other words, what I expect to be done might not be just one thing, I would probably expect a sensible discussion on the topic, and then if deemed necessary by the powers that be, for something to be done in order to make the game more balanced and fair and thus in the long term, more fun.

EDIT2: As for why it is constructive, because it can improve the server(some spells you've listed have been changed. I'd say as a result of discussion on the topic, such as true sight, IGMS and timestop.)

When it isn't about mechanically changing things though and not about rules, it can also sometimes just be to encourage people to think how your characters would act ICly about things, as you mentioned use of summons, an LG priest of Ilmater probably wouldn't summon a deva to make a suicide run into a bunch of traps, or to be used to beat someone down in a training duel for example.

[ID10Tango]

Give Dev Crit feat to Epic Fighter classes. <==Will never happen, gives me a sad face

*Tosses something* GRENADE!

[FORSETIS]

id like to log on to the forums and not have to scroll past all the complaining to find the enjoyable stuff to read.

[quelunia]

I can tell you from playing on FRC for a long time, many people post this stuff in hopes of getting things changed.. because,

1) They are looking to close a weakness in their character
2) They have seen someone exploit something
3) They make RP characters that are to weak to do things on their own
4) They read up somewhere on the net about an exploit and bring it to the attention of everyone.
5) They just trying to limit the opposition.

Good guys fighting bad guys... in PVP, things come up and one group has an upper hand in some area the other is looking to weaken that advantage.

I can tell you this much I dont care what level you are .. I dont care how good you are at building... You are going to have a weakness... Shesh'Ahl killed Aris with one spell.. Hold Person... Shesh was level 9 Aris level 16. He was able to nullify the same with a simple Protection from AL... The uber level mages that cast spells like that at Shesh just allowed him to close. Spells like Bigbies Forceful hand are deadly when used by a battle mage I will agree. But, because it wasnt scripted right by NWN not because its broke. It has been broke since the spell was added to the game. Honestly, Hold Person and Blindness are way more deadly spells. As they can be cast in masse... Traps.. ya stacking one on the other for a hour then bringing in a Demilich to die is cheating... CoT, Blackguard ones application the other not... big deal. This is an RP server, why not have the story line and be stuck to RPing what you came up with. Sometimes through the game you might have the storyline through RP. The one class I wish was application is RDD. As with this being a low magic server, the stat buffs are to much for some. Ya there is a storyline for it, and I like some of the ones I have read. But, I still think its an over used class. The things that really get to me are .. Elves using a half orc as a jungle gym... That kinda unrealistic crud drives me bonkers... But .. to each his own, I can always walk away.

Edit: Dev Crit really would be useless here anyway the save on monsters would just be jumped causing other problems. Just because you have it doesnt mean its gonna be worth it. Not to mention the other issues with modifying monsters will bring up.

Sometimes, we as a community just need to take a breath and ask ... Hmmm, does this really need to be disgussed? Think the question through before ya post the idea. Its for the best.

Ever hear becarful what you wish for you just might get it?

[Lady Frost]

If you are referring, as an example, to the trap thread I made, I made it so that people can post their opinions and others can read them. I'm not looking for any changes to happen aside from the ones people want to make themselves by opening their minds to what other people said. I know for a fact that a lot of people don't come from RP backgrounds and are new to it here. The more that veterans can post their opinions and the reasons they have them the more newer players can absorb it and decide how they want to proceed. Even other long time players may have done something a certain way or thought of something in only one aspect because they've never had the other side of the coin revealed. If I wanted something changed, I'd have made a post about the change and asked for thoughts on it.

I can only speak for myself and my threads though.

[quelunia]

Not specifically at your topic Lady Frost. I actually liked that one. But some where getting jabby about it.

[magocracy]

People also complain because they see the same tactics/skills/spells whatever being used over and over and get tired of it. Which often leads to complaining, and suggestions that people mix things up

But unfortunately there's not a tremendous amount of options in this video game (especially compared to pen and paper D&D) so those tactics tend to be the ones that work. There's usually not a DM around to reward creativity here or nudge things your way if you're intentionally using something that's more interesting RP-wise, but that doesn't really do much in terms of game mechanics (see: a good 2/3 of offensive spells, the parry skill, pale master abilities...)

This isn't really an excuse for using lame tactics, just an observation. When people use a particular ability a lot, it's because it WORKS. And when you're in a tough dungeon or PVP fight, you're gonna reach for what works.

[megascorpion]

Mar 1, 2013 15:29:05 GMT -5 quelunia said:

Good guys fighting bad guys... in PVP, things come up and one group has an upper hand in some area the other is looking to weaken that advantage.

...

Sometimes, we as a community just need to take a breath and ask ... Hmmm, does this really need to be disgussed? Think the question through before ya post the idea. Its for the best.

Ever hear becarful what you wish for you just might get it?

hrm, I hope I misunderstood what you wanted to say with this post, anyhow, these bits in particular somewhat annoys me as it takes away all arguments anybody makes for a balance change, and puts it in "they have an agenda which makes any reasons they put up invalid and no one should ever bother reading them(Presumably because they are dangerous and might mind trick people into agreeing?)" I have a sorcerer, my only character that was in a faction that was involved in pvp is retired, I STILL wish for the bigby's forceful hand spell to be rather heavily nerfed, and think that the spell is heavily unbalanced in relation to other spells and other classes abilities, and I do have what I would say rather good reasons for it.

To say that anyone who puts forth reasons why they think that it would be better to nerf said spells is just lying or that their reasons and arguments are invalid because they have an agenda to make their own characters more powerful in pvp is very insulting.

I've seen this come up a lot recently(for example in relation to bringing back the old vault), please people, stop claiming that everyone that disagrees with you are lying, powergaming, or trying to mind trick the DM's and the builders into making their characters "overpowered", put forth your arguments as to why you disagree and leave it at that, the DM's and builders are not morons, they won't make fighters have a mage's BAB just because two people said on the forum that they thought that Fighters BAB was too hgih when they already look so cool in Plate Armour,, hopefully though, they can be convinced or agree with something by the use sound arguments and good reasons for why something should or should not be one way or another.

EDIT: I also of course do not disagree with that there are people who do post for such reasons, but that should be rather irrelevant if they can't explain why it should be the way they wish it to be, and that does not mean that 'everybody' who posts have the same 'ill' intentions.

[The Flying Ve]

A module wide -10 Hide/MS at noon, -5 in the morning and evening and a +5 bonus at night in outdoors areas would aid in the sneaking issue rather nicely.

Nerfing bigby presents the problem that, once you do give it a save it becomes underpowered, while without a save, it's overpowered. A flat +bonus like implosion used to have might allevate this.

As for 'picking on' classes: It'll happen, constantly. Who cares?

[magiuss]

The matter of fact is.. Forgotten realms.. no one i as dangerous as a Mage in open battle.. you challenge and Mage in open battle an you are 90% sure to die.. given this mage is above the normal lvl of cantrips.. Bigbys is a very powerfull spell. might even be unbalanced.. but what is the next we should nerf ?.. th 10d6 sneak attack from a rouge when he sneaks someone?.. cause hey that would almos Insta gip most mages on this server due to their low CON.. or not to speak of the crits some of these fighters Can make.. both Crom/kenji/nadie and some other fighters.. can ONE hit Magius if they make a prober crit.. yer thats ot Imba at all.. and thats not even a DEv crit, and thats for not mentioning knockdown aswell.. you get close to a mage and you can keep knockdown him untill he is dead..... so my point is.. stop whining.. bigbys.. is one of the only spells that mages actully have in a open battle that may save their life.. unless of course they spam time stop untill you are dead..

and Ys MAGES are freaking OP in forgotten realms dnt forget that.. you guys are more interrested in balancing out a game. insted of liveing the world, we are playing in.

sorry if it seems a bit harsh

Magius

[quelunia]

Magius, I think the only Bigby spell that is gimped because the way NWN scripted it is forceful hands. Its supposed to be a strength check instead its set for a max strength check... Not many will save against it. I dont mind the spell, because.. if I mean to attack a mage its with a bow while closing then knockdown... Its best... disrupt from range and close. But, I dont have a problem with alot of things other than crud RP. The game is just that a game. It has its rules and restrictions to cannon... That is something we just have to deal with.

[Syd's Blue Sky]

Mar 2, 2013 14:19:07 GMT -5 quelunia said:

Magius, I think the only Bigby spell that is gimped because the way NWN scripted it is forceful hands. Its supposed to be a strength check instead its set for a max strength check... Not many will save against it. I dont mind the spell, because.. if I mean to attack a mage its with a bow while closing then knockdown... Its best... disrupt from range and close. But, I dont have a problem with alot of things other than crud RP. The game is just that a game. It has its rules and restrictions to cannon... That is something we just have to deal with.

It;s not a maxed str check. I've seen people with mods of something like +3 or +4 beat it. Forceful hand is a difficult subject.

[Deleted]

To the OP, I think discussion is always good, as long as it stays at a rational, constructive level, and not personally directed at any one person. People learn things. Others have a chance to get things off their chest that they've been sitting on. So long as people use the opportunity constructively, I think it's all good.

[lemonade]

I still believe that there is a general focus on mechanics, over roleplay. Roleplay moar and stop bitching. MMKAY? LOL

[Sadistic Hobo]

Mar 6, 2013 12:12:05 GMT -5 lemonade said:

I still believe that there is a general focus on mechanics, over roleplay. Roleplay moar and stop bitching. MMKAY? LOL

Mechanics affect roleplay. The two are not separate, mutually exclusive domains. They never have been, never will be, never could be. It all creates the game and how we play it.