Orcs and Half-Orcs

[LivingWasteland]

There was one instance where you joined a group my PC was a part of. My Pc was called by yours a dirty orc-kisser and a traitor to her people, because she stood up for the previously mentioned one that saved her. Instead of kicking you from the party, she said she couldn't work with yours, wished the party luck, and left.

So, I can say from personal experience, that it isn't your PC's views that gets your PC a negative reputation and have trouble finding groups. It's that he's rather openly hostile and insulting. If he cut back on that, he'd have a lot less of an issue being around people. Nobody is going to like being insulted, and the friends of people are going to get upset when you insult their friends. It's burning bridges.

[soulfien]

Nov 10, 2012 18:19:34 GMT -5 Savoie Faire said:

First: I want to say that the OP is both right and wrong.

He is right in that what he says is true for the common masses.
He is wrong in that what he says is untrue for adventurers.

In FR, adventurers are outcastes, vagabonds, sellswords, thugs, murderers, villains, babystealers, and scum. You have joined this club. Only rarely do adventurers receive kindness from strangers and usually only when they have been instrumental in some way in saving the asses of the strangers, such as the several adventuring companies of the Dales or the Red Ravens of Cormyr.

Otherwise, to the average commoner, your elf is no better than a half-blood orc. Why was your elf cast out of elfyland? Is he a murderous babystealer? In fact, why do they even let your character in the gates of any city? How is a half-blood orc with an Adventurer's Charter in any way worse than a full blooded elf with the same credentials?

There is one sure place where racisim and other forms of prejudice are weak or absent. This is at the table of a common inn where adventurers measure one another by their skill and not their appearance.

If you desire to play a racist, please feel free to do so. If your racist roleplay makes your character unwelcome in adventuring parties, then it is a consequence of your own roleplay.

I don't agree here. A consequence? What you're saying is that adventurers who dislike a race is bad role play. That's totally false.

Elves can adventure without losing what makes them elven.

Glenduil is welcome back in Evereska. He goes home every now and then. He has family there. He's a druid, not a murderer. His path sent him out of his home, but he is still every bit the elf he was when he left.

Nabril left home after finishing his apprenticeship as a wizard. He left because of his love Alexra, the human whom his family rescued from a brigandry attack when she was just a young girl. Her family didn't survive the attack so his family took her in and raised her in secret. When it was discovered, she was forced to leave and Nabril followed after when his training was complete.

See? Elves can become adventuers without becoming evil or losing themselves.

[soulfien]

Nov 11, 2012 1:04:05 GMT -5 LivingWasteland said:

There was one instance where you joined a group my PC was a part of. My Pc was called by yours a dirty orc-kisser and a traitor to her people, because she stood up for the previously mentioned one that saved her. Instead of kicking you from the party, she said she couldn't work with yours, wished the party luck, and left.

So, I can say from personal experience, that it isn't your PC's views that gets your PC a negative reputation and have trouble finding groups. It's that he's rather openly hostile and insulting. If he cut back on that, he'd have a lot less of an issue being around people. Nobody is going to like being insulted, and the friends of people are going to get upset when you insult their friends. It's burning bridges.

It's every PC's choice, though. Would your PC travel with a necromancer with a bone arm?

It's not burning bridges- it's role playing. In real life, how many people are there that you wouldn't hang out with? I'm betting there are more people you don't like in the world than there are that you DO. Instead of trying to fit in, there nothing wrong with letting yourself stand out.

In other words, it sounds like you BOTH played your PC's perfectly. He hated you and you politely told him to kiss your ass.

[LivingWasteland]

Yes. That was the IC actions. It blew up into OOC however, and moved to the forum here. Notice he said he's having problems grouping with people now because his PC 'doesn't love orcs'. His feelings for orcs have nothing to do with it. It's IC interactions.

[supajasiu]

Was this sparked by my char Gorgamesh being lovably stupid in town and everyone fawning over him for it? ._.

[LivingWasteland]

It was sparked by Weevvil, a half-orc that follows a good-aligned nature god. That's where the bugs crawling on it comes from.

[eberronbruce]

This picture is rather mild.



No it comes from both Weevil and the other blue halforc and the players attitudes toward them. And the NPCs just walking around in their robotic mode not having a care in the world on what is in their environment. Even when someone is yelling guards. It is a complete ignoring of NPCs and the environment because there wasn't someone controlling them.

I'm sorry to state, but just about anyone with insects crawling all over their hair and face is pretty well horrific and a towering figure walking around with a rather large axe is rather intimidating and threatening. The only other PC that actually responded to the situation other than trying to defend was Slate. Everyone else was being all "its all right, she is good or he is good" buddy buddy. This includes elves, humans, and the other races. Which is contradiction of the actual lore of the Forgotten Realms.

When you as a character starts saying things that fits the character's race and beliefs and those beliefs are common amongst the common folk. You are told to shut up and stop being a dick. What would all the other towns people and guards think about the situation if they were not just programmed to follow a path? I think they would tend to agree with Slate and the elf especially at that particular time.

From the NPC perspective, would a guard let someone into their village that is crawling with insects? At the very worse they would bar them and tell them to go away. If they are nice they would send a healer out.

By the way look up pictures of insects crawling on people and you can get some pretty disturbing pictures.

I brought it up in the Volunteer calling because it was an opportunity to bring up what the elf saw as a particular dangerous and threatening situation and problem while there was DM actually present.

Now because of my timezone and I actually brought this up, I am paying an OOC price for something that should be natural to the setting.

[soulfien]

Bugs:

There are only two reasons for having bugs all over you: Diseased (such as head lice and body lice) and being unclean. Both reasons cause the person to stink and they really go hand in hand.

In the world of magic where disease is cured magically and adventurers can afford to be cleansed magically, there's NO reason for adventurers to be crawling with bugs.

So what does this tell us? If this half-orc is crawling with bugs, he's going to GREAT lengths to be unwashed and infested. I don't know if anyone here has gone months without a shower or has known anyone who has, but trust me- it's so ungodly unpleasant that you CAN'T be around it without some reaction. People like this STINK HORRIBLY!!! Couple that with the stench of being a tank and it's a stink of the 9th layer of Hell!!!!!!!!!!! Bugs aren't there just to hang out. They're feasting on bacteria, dead skin, or digging in and going for blood. They're laying eggs in his clothes and hair and they're breeding.

If any of my PC's were to encounter this half-orc, you'd see some racial profiling indeed! Like it or not, none of my PC's will ever be going anywhere near this brute. If this puts me on some anti-social list, then so be it.

So... yeah. If what I'm reading is true, if this guy has a following, there are some people who aren't RP'ing well in my opinion.

[pattiiie]

Let's not forget that Greatgaunt contains over a thousand to two thousand civilians, though they can't be represented due to game engine limitations.

If a half-orc walks into town with bugs crawling all over his body, there should be serious action taken. The village of Greatgaunt doesn't want an epidemic of bugs and whatever else a half-orc is carrying to spread.

If a character is unclean/diseased, then we as responsible role-players should respond in-character and do something about it, because in reality, a human being would either ask the unclean/diseased person to leave the area until they are cleansed, so on so forth..

There needs to be less 'It's okay, we don't mind his smell' and more of 'I'm getting sick of this stench'. This doesn't come down to your character's alignment either, it comes down to the realism of your role-play.

[Malignant Naricissism]

I think even in a realistic medieval Europe setting where people bathing wasn't exactly a thing yet, and the stench of people was probably horrific to our modern noses, a guy with bugs crawling all over him would be a big deal. Lice are one thing, a carpet of insects is another.

[hellscream123]

As far as I could tell Weevil was a half-orc with bugs on her because she was a druid with an affinity for such so she doesn't have to smell like the 9th layer of hell, however the racism of a character is up to said character the lore of the books speaks about the nations and groups of these races -not- the individuals themselfs. So be a racist if you wish some may care some may not, such is the way of Rp

[LivingWasteland]

Hellscream's got it right. Weevill's got the druid thing going on, and I don't recall her ever emoting it was a carpet of bugs.

The other point is also correct. The FR setting is in medieval times. Expecting everyone to be up to be up to modern day cleanliness standards is silly.

Lastly, the only reason it's an OOC problem for you, is because you took it OOC. When my PC disagreed with yours, you started sending tells. I didn't respond to them because I didn't want it to be an OOC problem. Then finally you started venting at the group I backed out of the other night openly with // chat about it, complaining that you can't play your PC because you don't love orcs.

IC conflicts happen. IC rarely reflects OOC. When you let IC affect you OOC, that's when it becomes your problem. I'm sorry but when you insult a PC in game, they likely aren't going to want to work with you.

IC Action= IC Consequence.

[soulfien]

Druid or no, bugs are bugs. Having bugs crawling all over your body, in your hair, clothes, etc, is not sanitary. Laying eggs, feeding off of him, and such is not socially acceptable. I have a druid and he's 100% bug free.

Druid or no, bugs don't live in a sterile environment, so if he's infested, he's a lot less clean than my druid on his worst day.

Sorry, but not even my druid would go near this guy. We haven't met in game, of course- my druid is a legacy PC, but when and if they do, it'll be at a distance once it's made apparent his hygiene habits.

[warmaster]

Not all half-orcs worship Ol' One Eye or His pantheon. Many half-orcs are going to be the "innocent" result of a rather unpleasant conception (given the very racial hatred discussed).

I play a Half-Orc with this exact back story.

Now, for the point, it is all well and good saying that your character should hate Half-Orcs and Orcs and so on. Or simply be prejudiced towards them. I agree. They should be.

But please remember two things... If everyone treats Half-Orcs badly... nobody will play them. Which will kill variety just that little bit more. Which is a bad thing. Nobody should lose out on fun because they decided to play something different.

Secondly... If your character is going to hate/insult or just generally be prejudiced against Orcs, Half-Orcs and so on... Then there is always the chance that said Half-Orc, Orc and so on will turn your character to paste. As mine would. If your character decided to verbally attack her for her heritage or just generally be a nasty individual, she would have no objections to turning him/her in to a fine pate. Would this annoy you OOCly? Would you like it when random, higher level Half-Orcs start pasting your character for his nasty words and disrespect? No, because nobody likes losing.

Sometimes you just have to tweak your expectations, or, alter your beliefs that little bit so that everyone involved can have fun, not just you.

[simon1981]

Nov 11, 2012 18:42:24 GMT -5 warmaster said:

Not all half-orcs worship Ol' One Eye or His pantheon. Many half-orcs are going to be the "innocent" result of a rather unpleasant conception (given the very racial hatred discussed).

I play a Half-Orc with this exact back story.

Now, for the point, it is all well and good saying that your character should hate Half-Orcs and Orcs and so on. Or simply be prejudiced towards them. I agree. They should be.

But please remember two things... If everyone treats Half-Orcs badly... nobody will play them. Which will kill variety just that little bit more. Which is a bad thing. Nobody should lose out on fun because they decided to play something different.

Secondly... If your character is going to hate/insult or just generally be prejudiced against Orcs, Half-Orcs and so on... Then there is always the chance that said Half-Orc, Orc and so on will turn your character to paste. As mine would. If your character decided to verbally attack her for her heritage or just generally be a nasty individual, she would have no objections to turning him/her in to a fine pate. Would this annoy you OOCly? Would you like it when random, higher level Half-Orcs start pasting your character for his nasty words and disrespect? No, because nobody likes losing.

Sometimes you just have to tweak your expectations, or, alter your beliefs that little bit so that everyone involved can have fun, not just you.

This.

I'm a little confused as to what's being asked here, because it seems to me that the OP is asking that PCs need to run every half-orc out of town for 'realism's' sake. I can see that very quickly devolving into griefing, actually.

That said, I've played half-orcs on FRC before (one in the legacy vault) and life is anything but easy for them. I'm not complaining - actually it was fun, and spoke volumes of the quality of RP on the server at the time.

Lastly, I believe FRC's number one rule is about creating fun for everyone, not just yourself. Something to think about.

[pattiiie]

With the recent posts made on this thread, it reminds me of a thread I created a year or so ago.
I outlined the differences between IC and OOC reactions, and each player should realise that everything that happens IC, stays IC.

If you, as a player find something to be highly problematic, that somehow happened IC, you shouldn't take it out on other players, just because your character decided to take a stance on a certain race.

As many other players have mentioned on this thread, and I'll say it again just for good measure, think about the consequences of your actions, and PLEASE, do not be offended by anything that happens IC. Unless it's something that breaks server rules and should be reported to the DM Team, handle it like a responsible human being and continue on as you would with your character.

Thank you.

[Savoie Faire]

Just because a character isn't ridden out of town on a rail doesn't mean the town loves him. Greatgaunt makes it money off adventurers. Sure, there's farms and whatnot, but the bulk of their income comes from fleecing adventurers. So they aren't about to kick out a potential source of money based on racisim.

This is not the same as inviting the half-orc for tea. Or even liking him. A merchant can dispise a person and still take his coin in trade. An adventuring party can dispise a half-orc and still invite him along for a bit of meat-shielding. You don't have to love him just because you don't react to him with instant hatred and scorn.

[Razgriz]

Nov 11, 2012 18:42:24 GMT -5 warmaster said:

I play a Half-Orc with this exact back story.

Now, for the point, it is all well and good saying that your character should hate Half-Orcs and Orcs and so on. Or simply be prejudiced towards them. I agree. They should be.

But please remember two things... If everyone treats Half-Orcs badly... nobody will play them. Which will kill variety just that little bit more. Which is a bad thing. Nobody should lose out on fun because they decided to play something different.

Secondly... If your character is going to hate/insult or just generally be prejudiced against Orcs, Half-Orcs and so on... Then there is always the chance that said Half-Orc, Orc and so on will turn your character to paste. As mine would. If your character decided to verbally attack her for her heritage or just generally be a nasty individual, she would have no objections to turning him/her in to a fine pate. Would this annoy you OOCly? Would you like it when random, higher level Half-Orcs start pasting your character for his nasty words and disrespect? No, because nobody likes losing.

Sometimes you just have to tweak your expectations, or, alter your beliefs that little bit so that everyone involved can have fun, not just you.

Yes, for example Garlog or was it Galrog? does pretty much what he wants, he does not need to be accepted and I have seen that he only stops if Bentin or other guards are near and/or tell him to do so. Careful with who your character insults ppl.

[rotterdam]

If you've ever played pen and paper D&D you know that it's usually a bunch of players showing up with characters who would never associate. One might have an evil cleric, another a paladin, another a chaotic good elf, another a lawful neutral monk, another a chaotic neutral half-orc barbarian. And yet, if your RP is flexible, it can work. There's plenty of conflict of course, but it can work. You don't have to like each other to adventure together, and it's not that hard to find reasons why they would be a party.

Having the elf player get up and walk away five minutes into the adventure because there's a half orc there? That doesn't work. Who enjoys that? Same thing on FRC, if an elf player just shuts out RP completely because there's a half orc involved I just think that's him being a poor sport and cutting off his nose to spite his face. It reeks of being a prima donna. That's not why the creators of D&D made playable races dislike each other. They added the racism to make things interesting and to put conflict in groups so it's not just everyone pleasantly working together to beat up monsters and take their stuff.

We could use a lot more of that spirit here- finding excuses for our characters to barely tolerate each other, not trust each other, but still work together in forming varied parties of characters from different backgrounds. RP the antipathy and distrust, of course! But don't just take your ball and go home because you're being over-literal with the rules.

[soulfien]

Hmm... PnP doesn't have PvP either. Well, it does, but once the party kills each other, the game is over. It's for this reason that you don't party necromancers with paladins in PnP. Or would you actually rather see a party where the paladin is fighting alongside the animated dead?

This is not PnP. There are multiple parties. There are solo'ers. PvP is acceptable here. That's why this server allows evil groups to interact with good groups.

[Syd's Blue Sky]

I think the argument put forth there is a little less relevant in FRC where it's not a fish bowl of 4-6 PCs. Here we are a large enough community that the necros hang with the necros, the pallys hang with pallys and bards get drunk with everyone. This is the sort of animosity that drives every decent PCvPC (not PvP) plot on the server. This is what leads to guilds like the Harpers and The Bitter End even being FUN. Conflict is everything, and if you start preaching tolerance at every turn for the sake of keeping the peace, then pretty soon we're just a social server.

I think there is a lot of RP you can miss out on if you bend over backwards just to make nice and party up for the XPz'n'lootz.

RP IS better than lootz, right?

The idea here is that it's all a balance. Everything we do, be it RPing your character to the last hard line of their personality during a DM event or playing a sun elf who hates orcs. This balance can't be hashed out in black and white rules, and it can't be enforced by DMs every day. This is one of those times where you really do rely on the community to just make good decisions when they are presented with these issues.

These types of threads are healthy because it gets the juices flowing and raises the awareness level of the issue across the board, but in the end it's up to the individual to do the right thing, here.

So just have fun, FRC.

Syd

[rotterdam]

I'm not saying treat this like a PnP game, but some of the spirit of fun back and forth hostility is sorely needed here. Going straight to PVP, and shutting people out at first glance, I see no fun in that at all.

[pattiiie]

Is this thread about PnP/PvP or about orcs and half-orcs? I lost track.

[Muse]

The OP is about Half-orcs and setting in how it pertains to FRC and referenced in source materials. All subjects there in after have been a normal comparison of various flavors of practicality as it relates to both with the FRC NWN module and multiplayer culture. With a smattering of comparison to source materials that were written for PnP and adapted to the needs of a MMO server.

A dash of disagreement.
A pinch of wit.

Stir.

[eberronbruce]

When someone tries to be different but others follow suit, then a minority makes a majority. What this means if you try to different but others follow you this makes a majority. Examples can be seen greatly in fashion. The PCs make up almost 100% of the interactivity. So when the majority of PCs act a certain way it gives the feel of the world to be the way they act. Which in this particular instances when about 7 PCs on and only two of them responded negativity toward halforc while the rest responded favorably, so this gives the impression that the world favors halforcs. It is responsible for the majority of the PCs to play convincing characters based on the world they are in to give the impression of what the world is like. Imagine being a fresh new player who knows about FR and starts to play on the server for the first time. The impression they will get is everyone loves everyone except for a few, which is not from the sources.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Now you say the elf is racist for wanting to wipe out all the blood of Grummsh from the face of the world. I say he is typical elf not a racist elf. I would safely assume that most of us have not grown up in a war torn environment. That we really don't understand constant fighting as in some places in world like the middle east has. Nor faced the fighting horrors of the people in Europe did during the WWII. From what I gathered up on FR that this kind of fighting is almost constant, particularly against goblinoids and orcs. So to say the elf is a racist dick, is to completely ignore the psychology and the environment of Forgotten Realms. The elf is a product of the world, not the other way around. The elf thinks, which kind of idiots would put up a wall to keep their enemies out but yet open their gates for them.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Halforcs are a product of violence. Orcish culture is based on violence. They constantly attack their neighbors. Pillaging and also taking what they want. This includes slaves and sacrifices. Now the orcs force these slaves to breed with them like such cultures like the Romans and Greeks did with some of their slaves. This is why orc tribes have halforcs in them and why more halforcs exists in various orc tribes than in human settlements.

Now if there is an area where orc and humans are at some sort of peace that I do not know about then there maybe peaceful halforc births. But most of what I get is they come from violence and people of FR consider halforcs to be a product of orcish brutality. We all know that halforc PCs will not belong to an orc tribe because the engine is really not conclusive toward it, but that is player knowledge not character knowledge. Also to note, that halforcs have better upward mobility in orc tribes than human settlements. Halforcs can become chiefs of orc tribes.

Also orcs do not look like cute cuddly teddy bears. So, I would stop pretending they are.


By the way this is an halforc
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Now take into the account that someone logs on when it isn't the peak time in the US or Europe. What do they see?

[Charon's Claw]

These are also adult half orcs. Not all HAVE to be as monstrous as you seem to view them to be. There's a range for them, after all. PC back stories differ, and even their RP interactions can change their viewpoints, and/or how they're viewed by their PC brethren. How you RP is your own prerogative, until you try to enforce your own view on another. You may suggest, but to do so as if this is the only way it is isn't the way to go about things. Also, look up Palischuk sometime.

Also to reiterate, not ALL half-orcs are like what you've portrayed, but there are certainly many examples of how you view them, however not ALL are like how you view them.

[Syd's Blue Sky]

It's pretty clear to me by this point that this isn't even about the half-orcs anymore.

[arisnorman1]

see i find it funny how players ignore half orcs and buddie around with them yes ok your doing it but one thing they have done does not mean you would erase your fear or mistrust. i mean if they allowed drow as player race would you pal around with them and ignore that they are drow? and not all drow are evy like half orcs. But i am sure you would all treat them like dirt

[eberronbruce]

The answer would be yes. I seen it on other servers and it is all too common. Its the "Drizzit" mentality. There will be dozens of drow and the players would say its ok they are all good. Seen the same thing with orc characters as well. NWN2 allows for full orc and drow PCs.

Just because it is in some novel doesn't mean its totally acceptable or universally accepted. Its the same thing as a paladin being friends with an assassin and not losing their ability for willing to associate with evil. And I don't mean the paladin is trying to convert the assassin and mean he is accepting it and allowing the assassin to continue their actions. Just you don't lose your race for associating, but their should be consequences for willing doing so. Like being shun from communities, ect.. It should not be the norm.

[Rane]

Play your character with whatever mentality you want to.