Tithing

[Savoie Faire]

Why do we tithe? In game, or out of game?

Every temple accepts donations and for the same reasons.

If you look across the Real World you see many huge and embellished churches, temples, mosques, tabernacles, etc. built with the tithes of worshippers. If the mission of these places is to feed the poor, then surely that money should have been spent otherwise than on a huge building which is mostly empty six days a week.

However, these buildings have a deeper symbolic meaning. Not only do they say, "Look how prestigious our religion is," while playing the part of a postcard to the uninitiated, they give to the users a feeling of connection to something huge, wealthy, and impressive. It is no accident that the entire realm of architecture can be traced to the construction of places of worship/burial.

It has been proven over and over that a sports team for a school can generate far greater funds for that school when given a stadium than one which must play in a lot bordered by bleachers. The same applies to temples. Big, gaudy, over-the-top places of worship pay for themselves in increased revenue in a relatively short time.

But that only explains why a religion accepts the money. Why does anyone tithe at all?

People have a need to be included in the community. They wish to be seen as contributing members of their society. When one who tithes sees the huge buildings with stained glass windows or golden domes or what-have-you, they have a feeling of ownership and pride which cannot be given to those who merely attend or drive by those buildings.

After Katrina and again after Isaac I and many of my neighbors singly and/or collectively went out into the neighborhoods and put tarps on damaged roofs, cleaned fallen limbs and debris from storm drains, and otherwise did what we could to help get the cleanup underway. We weren't paid, didn't expect to be paid, and would have, (for the most part,) refused pay for doing what we did. I can't speak for everyone, but I did and do it because as a member of society who gains the benefits of that society, I am morally obligated to give back in measure, (and also because the ladies love to watch a man working.)

In effect, I have laid a claim to ownership of my society. I am not merely a parasite living off the glut of my neighbors, I am one of them, a valued and contributing member. It is the difference between a renter and a homeowner. (If you have never been a homeowner, I strongly encourage you to become one, as it's the single biggest boost to your self esteem you could ever imagine outside of becoming a parent, (and accepting the responsibilities thereof.)

Tithing is not primarily for the benefit of the religion, though all religions benefit from it in some degree. Tithing is for the benefit of the one giving the tithe.

The impact of this in a setting such as Forgotten Realms would be even greater. Even if a temple could sustain itself on sales of merchandise, (a doubtful case, because such merchandise is often far above and beyond what the typical worshipper could afford, and the very few who could would be buying only moderate to low cost items such as scrolls and potions on a regular basis,) a temple which did not accept tithes would quickly find itself without worshippers. Because people want to be included. They want to count. They want to stand up and be a part of something bigger than themselves. In short, people want to tithe.

Taxes are not the same as tithing, because one is involuntary and mandatory while the other is completely voluntary. You don't get the chance to choose to pay taxes or not, so you cannot gain the commensurate feeling of ownership and belonging that comes from paying tithes.

[Trollfiend]

*drops 10' pole and walks away*

[Trollfiend]

I'll say this on the cost of temples in FRC. The typical building costs maybe 20,000 thousand gold to build and a LOT less to maintain. I'm pretty many temples are pulling thousands in sales per day. Greatgaunt has to be making 30,000 in sales a day. That's got to equate to at least a thousand profit per day.

Edit: After looking up prices for construction, a temple would cost about 5,000 gold to build. Of course, the most elaborate largest ones would be more, but it would take a serious temple complex to be 20,000 gold. Meriss's temple would cost about 1,000 gold and it hardly needs gold to maintain the roof it doesn't have.

[Deleted]

Sept 12, 2012 11:45:56 GMT -5 Trollfiend said:

I'll say this on the cost of temples in FRC. The typical building costs maybe 20,000 thousand gold to build and a LOT less to maintain. I'm pretty many temples are pulling thousands in sales per day. Greatgaunt has to be making 30,000 in sales a day. That's got to equate to at least a thousand profit per day.

Edit: After looking up prices for construction, a temple would cost about 5,000 gold to build. Of course, the most elaborate largest ones would be more, but it would take a serious temple complex to be 20,000 gold. Meriss's temple would cost about 1,000 gold and it hardly needs gold to maintain the roof it doesn't have.

I think you are thinking way too hard about this. Real world construction cost doesn't really equate to FRC temple building costs. We aren't going to remove the tithe plates from temples based on your argument (at least I am not going to vote that way, assuming it ever made it that far). Maybe Merris is secretly an evil mastermind who is storing all the gold away in order to fund his vast takeover of Cormyrian territory. People in the real world, and in this case, the fantasy world of forgotten realms, tithe. One of the rules of the Paladins PnP class is that they MUST tithe. You think it's stupid that they must tithe, we have given reasons for tithing that don't hold water in your mind. I guess we just have to agree to disagree about the stupidity of paladin tithes.

[Trollfiend]

I wasn't using real world stuff. I was using in game stuff- construction costs for 3rd edition. I know this is a game and I'm not going to use real world stuff to justify doing or not doing stuff.

This is a fantasy. It's not real. I think everyone here knows this.

Remember? commoners think 500 gold is more money than they would ever see and they couldn't ever spend that much in ten lifetimes, yet they own houses.

That's using in game concepts.

[Deleted]

Sept 12, 2012 12:30:06 GMT -5 Trollfiend said:

I wasn't using real world stuff. I was using in game stuff- construction costs for 3rd edition. I know this is a game and I'm not going to use real world stuff to justify doing or not doing stuff.

This is a fantasy. It's not real. I think everyone here knows this.

Remember? commoners think 500 gold is more money than they would ever see and they couldn't ever spend that much in ten lifetimes, yet they own houses.

That's using in game concepts.

3rd edition building costs can't really be plugged in here either, I don't think. I could be wrong, but I have a feeling FRCs economy is inflated in comparison. You could compare some high end item costs from 3.5 dmg with some of the examples of the same on the server and see just how off it may or may not be.

I think founding a guild costs 150,000 or something like that, most of which I think is the cost of the guildhall construction.

[moonelf]

Sept 12, 2012 12:39:22 GMT -5 @dmhighherald said:

3rd edition building costs can't really be plugged in here either, I don't think. I could be wrong, but I have a feeling FRCs economy is inflated in comparison. You could compare some high end item costs from 3.5 dmg with some of the examples of the same on the server and see just how off it may or may not be.

I agree with this +1

[canuckkane]

According to this thread: frc.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=serverrules&action=display&thread=12050 Guilds cost 250,000gp to start up and that goes toward construction, furnishing, hires, etc.

[TrueBlueOriginal]

I like the ability to tithe.

Is there really an issue with people not liking the tithe plates?

[Razgriz]

I like to tithe as well. I don't see the problem either.

[ladyphoenix]

My character is faithful, she tithes. If it just the RP of it. Would the 1000-1500 I have given so far perhaps been more useful in another way, perhaps but it is ic thing to do and I like being able to do it.

[Savoie Faire]

Remember that Income is not the same as Revenue.

Wal Mart, that evil conglomerate corporation sticking it to the poor has the horrendously high profit margin of something like 3.5%. (This is actually a very good margin, by the way, for a retailer.) So, if your typical merchantile temple were as efficient as Wal Mart, for every 10,000 gold it takes in it would get to keep 350. The rest of the gold goes to suport the operation, be it buying supplies, paying salaries, getting the crack in the Golden Dome repaired, or what have you.

[Rane]

+1 to the previous comment, nearly my answer on the paladin thread

[walkonair]

Sept 12, 2012 14:44:39 GMT -5 TrueBlueOriginal said:

I like the ability to tithe.

+1

I really like the tithe plates, for the RP enhancement.
When I started playing on FRC, I was able to learn about tithing IC rather than OOC/being told: my character travelled with someone who tithed regularly, and after a time or two, she asked and they started talking about it.
I really appreciated that.

Sept 12, 2012 21:38:09 GMT -5 ladyphoenix said:

My character is faithful, she tithes. If it just the RP of it. Would the 1000-1500 I have given so far perhaps been more useful in another way, perhaps but it is ic thing to do and I like being able to do it.

+ another 1

My main PC tithes all the time, the relative amount temple-dependent. Without tithe plates I'd be dropping blobs of gold around the place (potentially laggy?) or trash-canning for her tithes. So I find it nice and RP-happy to be able to tithe without having to emote trash-canning gold for tithing purposes.

[Trollfiend]

To clear things up, I never said I wanted the tithe plates to vanish. I'm actually curious as to where that came from.

What I said was (starting in the paladin thread) that I don't like the expectation that my paladin NEEDS to tithe. Or should be expected to tithe. I didn't really like the idea that was stated that paladins aren't good paladins if they don't tithe.

The tithe plates are fine for those that wish to use them and I think if people decide to tithe, they should be able to. Good or evil- tithing sees no alignment.

[Lady Frost]

Sept 13, 2012 0:53:37 GMT -5 Trollfiend said:

To clear things up, I never said I wanted the tithe plates to vanish. I'm actually curious as to where that came from.

What I said was (starting in the paladin thread) that I don't like the expectation that my paladin NEEDS to tithe. Or should be expected to tithe. I didn't really like the idea that was stated that paladins aren't good paladins if they don't tithe.

The tithe plates are fine for those that wish to use them and I think if people decide to tithe, they should be able to. Good or evil- tithing sees no alignment.

I think it comes down to, "Because the rules state, 'Paladins must tithe'."

Now, I'm not sure if what you're typing means, 1) I as a player won't have my paladin tithe because I don't think the concept is appropriate, or 2) I don't like the idea but I will do it grudgingly.

If it's the latter, I'm fine with that.

If it's the former then I'd be disappointed. That'd be like saying, "I don't agree that my druid should have to avoid metal so I'm going to have them wear it anyway."

Now, on the other hand, this is an IC action (even if it's made in an OOC fashion) and as such if a DM found out that a paladin wasn't tithing I think there should be IC consequences.

[Trollfiend]

Sept 13, 2012 2:37:03 GMT -5 Lady Frost said:

Sept 13, 2012 0:53:37 GMT -5 Trollfiend said:

To clear things up, I never said I wanted the tithe plates to vanish. I'm actually curious as to where that came from.

What I said was (starting in the paladin thread) that I don't like the expectation that my paladin NEEDS to tithe. Or should be expected to tithe. I didn't really like the idea that was stated that paladins aren't good paladins if they don't tithe.

The tithe plates are fine for those that wish to use them and I think if people decide to tithe, they should be able to. Good or evil- tithing sees no alignment.

I think it comes down to, "Because the rules state, 'Paladins must tithe'."

Now, I'm not sure if what you're typing means, 1) I as a player won't have my paladin tithe because I don't think the concept is appropriate, or 2) I don't like the idea but I will do it grudgingly.

If it's the latter, I'm fine with that.

If it's the former then I'd be disappointed. That'd be like saying, "I don't agree that my druid should have to avoid metal so I'm going to have them wear it anyway."

Now, on the other hand, this is an IC action (even if it's made in an OOC fashion) and as such if a DM found out that a paladin wasn't tithing I think there should be IC consequences.

I disagree here... See, tithing should be an evil blackguard requirement just as much as a paladin requirement if that's the case. Tithing isn't just for the good. Saintly should apply to evil as well as good. Evil deities need love too.

One of the issues I have (if we're going to make this an IC consequence thing) is that everyone seems to focus on the good tithing while the evil roll in riches. The glorious thing about D&D is the even scale between good and evil. A fanatic is a fanatic. I'm not saying everyone does this. If your evil guy tithes his riches then hey, you've done better than I have.

And it's not so much an OOC belief overriding an IC "rule" as much as my own interpretation of the system. I'm reading it a bit differently.

[Lady Frost]

Before I start I want to make sure you know I'm only discussing this with you, I'm not arguing or mad or anything else. It's only a simple discussion. No emotion behind it *calm*

My post is based off the the idea that tithing is required by your paladin's order.

If it isn't required then there isn't any use discussing it more, you don't have to worry about it.

If it is required though, then it doesn't matter who else you believe should tithe (whether it makes sense or not), it's your paladin that has the IC requirement that should be fulfilled. Your paladin not fulfilling his IC duty can't be argued with an OOC argument that it's not fair that blackguards don't have to.

On a side note, whether it's required or not, I know many many PC's tithe that aren't required to. Evil and Good. I'd bet Zoe has tithed between 150k and 200k gold. What does that prove? It proves that just because a paladin might have a requirement to tithe doesn't mean PC's that don't have a requirement don't tithe.

edit: fixed smiley

[EDM Neo]

Book of Exalted Deeds lists Charity as goodly, while Book of Vile Darkness lists Greed as evil.

Charity

One specific aspect of helping others is charity: providing material assistance to those in need, particularly those whose situation in life robs them of pride and respect. Offering food to the hungry, clothes to the naked, lodging to the homeless, care for orphans and widows, and hope to the hopeless are among the simplest and yet most profound of good deeds. Good characters offer this sort of assistance to needy people without regard for their moral character and with the utmost concern for their dignity.

The idea that creatures too weak to better themselves deserve their low position is a hallmark of evil dogma. Good characters reject this notion completely, recognizing that most poor and needy people are the victims of circumstances, not of their own weakness or failings.

Greed

Greed is so simple a motivation that it hardly seems worth mentioning. Yet it drives villains perhaps more than any other factor. Greed is tied into most of the types of evil behavior mentioned here. Ambition taken too far--particularly advancement at the expense of others--can manifest itself as greed. Lust for wealth, power, or prestige can lead to jealousy, theft, murder, betrayal, and a host of other evils.

Some evil gods require their followers to make offerings to them, on a case by case basis, but it's not a sweeping thing for because evil tends to be selfish. I should note I don't really like the BoVD's write up on greed - I think it could do a better job of distinguishing between ambition that selfishly harms others and ambition that's just wanting to better your position without being willing to cause such harm - but it still stands that that's what the sourcebook says.

That said, I don't think I've ever actually seen it written sweepingly anywhere that all paladins must tithe a specific percentage of their income. Defenders of the Faith notes that, "Many DMs require paladins to donate at least 10% of their adventuring spoils to their order, their church, or a worthy charity, and an exceptionally zealous paladin might voluntarily double this amount," but this is presented as optional.

What does the core paladin's code of conduct say on the matter?

Code of Conduct

A paladin must be of lawful good alignment and loses all class abilities if she ever willingly commits an evil act.

Additionally, a paladin’s code requires that she respect legitimate authority, act with honor (not lying, not cheating, not using poison, and so forth), help those in need (provided they do not use the help for evil or chaotic ends), and punish those who harm or threaten innocents.

Just that they need to "help those in need," and really, it's up to players how to interpret that. Personally, my paladins (and other characters who I consider as aspiring towards Exalted good, as best as they can anyway) do tithe whenever I happen by a temple. Just a hundred coin most of the time, sometimes a thousand if they're particularly well off or it's a temple they favor. I don't bother trying to keep track of their income and donating a specific portion of it, because I think it's more book keeping than it's worth, and that the occasional smaller on screen tithe is plenty to demonstrate, "yes, this character gives to charity."

It's not because some actual DM mandated rule somewhere says "paladins must all donate one tenth of their earnings minus expenses to their church." It's because they are good, they want to do good with their coin beyond purchasing themselves equipment, and they trust the organization they are donating their coin to to spend it wisely and towards good ends. If a paladin ICly told one of my good characters that they refused to tithe at goodly temples and give to charity, they would get some very askance looks unless they had a really good explanation - and "I don't think charity is goodly" would not cut it.

All said, LF's point that, "if it's specifically mandated by your paladin order, you'd better do it" is a good one. Specific trumps general.

[catmage]

If you read most of the entries for evil deities in Faiths and Pantheons, if the deity isn't demanding high grade material wealth in sacrifice, he/she tends to prefer it in a pound of flesh fashion(Auril demands tithing by near freezing to death, Loviatans ritually flog and scar themselves, Talosians and Sharrans are ritually required to perform some evil deed weekly).

Do they have it in the rules? Well, in the 3.5 PHB, paladins aren't required to tithe by the rules, so, no. If the DM team says "Hey, paladins, honeys, bubelehs, a little tithing we think you should do, so some rules here we have for yah" then yes, DM ruling trumps source material. Should they? Well, I suppose if the character wants that as a flaw, so be it. Just don't be surprised if it makes people regard you differently IC or OOC should they find out.

Tithing is one of the most obvious and public ways to display devotion to a deity. If you slay the savage orc horde before it reaches Suzail, the citizens are aware that a danger to themselves was stopped in the objective sense. But since the danger wasn't in their face, it doesn't stand out as much as if the Paladin of the Golden Cup heads over to the House of Healing and donates that fat sum of gold to keep them stocked up on healing supplies and food and shelter for the poor. When that Tyrran gives the temple that nice share of Klauth's hoard, the dead dragon means less to the average citizen than the temple successfully lobbying for fairer court systems for non-nobles, and paying public defenders.

It works in (quieter) reverse for baddies. When the Maskarran cleric drops a thousand gold on Mask's plate, it's bragging rights to his flock about how successful he is with the Lord of Shadow's backing. When that Talonite priest makes a sufficient offer, it's justifying why Talona doesn't strike him with Ultra-Herpes(patent pending).

And tithing needn't always be wealth in the material sense. The Sunites are in effect tithing when they host a revel, since they're making a sacrifice of their time and energy in extolling the goddess and encouraging support for her. When Alizarin hosted those Mage Fairs, even as a secular institution aligned more with Oghma than anyone else, it was still in essence a tithe to the gods of Magic and Arcane Spellcasters. Luckbringer managed one hell of a tribute to Kessa's god with a tournament of smacktatude.

[EDM Neo]

You heard it here first, folks. Tithe to Talona so you won't get Ultra-Herpes.

[simon1981]

I'm a bit confused as to what the issue is here. If a player wants to make their paladin tithe, they will do so. If not, who is going to know?

Sure enough, it may be a rule that paladins MUST tithe (I must have missed that rule, but I've never played a paladin on FRC). I highly doubt that DMs are going to follow paladin PCs around just to see if they're tithing or not. If they are, then frankly, they have too much time on their hands! I suspect that most DMs would rather spend their time running events and encounters for adventuring groups.

Roleplay wise, paladins probably should tithe and I think most RPers playing the class will do so. Ultimately, it's no skin off anyone's nose if a player doesn't want to.

[Lady Frost]

Sept 13, 2012 4:05:48 GMT -5 catmage said:

Do they have it in the rules? Well, in the 3.5 PHB, paladins aren't required to tithe by the rules, so, no. If the DM team says "Hey, paladins, honeys, bubelehs, a little tithing we think you should do, so some rules here we have for yah" then yes, DM ruling trumps source material. Should they? Well, I suppose if the character wants that as a flaw, so be it. Just don't be surprised if it makes people regard you differently IC or OOC should they find out.

While the PHB may not list a general statement about paladins and tithing, I do believe some individual orders have their own rules on tithing.

[Savoie Faire]

Evil High Priest: You have failed to prove your devotion to our Master. Your punishment will be excruciating and lengthy.

Evil Acolyte: I have 10% of my total wealth right here, I was saving it for an impressive display all at once rather than give a little bit at a time.

Evil High Priest: 10% will be enough to stay my punishment, but you have still not proven your devotion.

Evil Acolyte: Wait, did I say 10%? I meant 20%! Yes, and here's another 10% for late payment!

The reasons Evil characters tithe may not be the same, but they still tithe.

As for the rule of tithing for paladins: the rule of mandatory tithing was in 1st ed. where the class originated. I don't recall if 2nd kept the rule, my 2e sourcebooks are not at hand.

[Munroe]

3.x doesn't have a mandatory unilateral tithing rule for paladins I've ever come across. As Catmage said, different faiths also make offerrings and shows of faith different ways.

Neo, greed is evil, but when you're an evil devotee of an evil god, you're low man on the pecking order. You get to be evil and greedy until your faith says "and now your gold is our gold." Such is the risk of being a goon for such a greedy god.

Here's the main point I want to make though: In tabletop D&D, regardless of whether a paladin is expected to tithe 10%, 30%, or 50%, it's the responsibility of the DM to keep the paladin appropriately arrayed in gear and equipment for his level, and if that means giving him more gold to start with, so he can tithe 10%, 20%, or 70% of it and still come out even for his level, then that's what the DM should do. And if the paladin gets greedy, and falls from grace so he can keep all that gold, then the DM adjusts future loot downward, to keep the ex-paladin's wealth at parity with the rest of the party. This is something that doesn't translate to NWN. Character wealth is significantly managed not just by the players, but also by the DM in tabletop D&D.

In fact, I imagine this is one reason mandatory tithing isn't part of the tabletop game. Mandatory tithing means more DM bookkeeping to keep the paladin character operating at the same level of gear and wealth as the rest of the party, and seems more fair because the paladin isn't getting more wealth to offset his tithing.

[falcus]

Sept 13, 2012 17:21:25 GMT -5 Savoie Faire said:

.
The reasons Evil characters tithe may not be the same, but they still tithe.

I just don't know about this idea that "EVERY religion tithes." Even in your example I would imagine there's evil religions that ask for sacrifices or the blood of their enemies or who-knows-what instead of a cut of their profits.

I think there's nature dieties who wouldn't ask tithes because the concept of money itself would be against religion. Certainly the ask something of their worshippers, but that could very well be time and effort instead of cold hard cash. At the other end of the spectrum Waukeen temples could very well be a giant pyramid scheme that overtax the newbies to make the leaders rich. It's not going to be a Catholic-esque 10% across the board. Even in modern religions, there's an incredible amount of variation and the notion of the big temple and collection plate is certainly not the default.

The fun of D&D religions is how they are so all over the map, and different than one another, and how they zero in on specific domains that often aren't even religious at all. Making them all kind of the same, and saying all temples work about the same and have the same purpose, really quashes that.

Certainly all religions demand SOMETHING of their worshippers, especially the clerics. And certainly almost all paladins take oaths of austerity and ought to be tithing, that's a staple of D&D. But I don't buy the rest, not one bit-- it really and truly depends on the deity.

[Trollfiend]

Well, if we adhere to the PnP 3.5 exalted feats, a paladin must not only tithe 10%, but he must only own no more than 6 magic items. So that's weapon, shield, armor, helm, and 2 others. So maybe 2 rings? That'd be it.

www.dandwiki.com/wiki/3.5e_Exalted_Feats

I'm certainly not keen on that either.

Anyway, like it's been said, this system doesn't match NWN and certainly not FRC's inflated economy.

And he must use the deity's favored weapon which makes no sense... does a god really worry about what kind of weapon did it's work? Or that the deed was carried out in the deity's name? Anyway.

Oh... Lady Frost... I am calm. I have been having a discussion

[EDM Neo]

That page you linked to is of homebrewed feats based on the Exalted feats in the Book of Exalted Deeds, spelling. Almost everything on that wiki is homebrew material.

That aside, feats are things you can take optionally. The specific requirements for a specific feat have nothing to do with a run of the mill paladin. The BoED has a number of other Exalted feats, some with even harsher requirements than the homebrewed ones you linked there, but they're optional. It presents the option for a character to hold themselves to an even stricter standard, but that doesn't mean it's mandatory to take them or that they apply to characters who didn't.

[catmage]

Uhm, I believe those are home brew feats(i.e., non-canonical house rules created by a play group), based on the fact that I own a LOT of 3.0/3.5 source books and have never encountered any of those feats, and because the link indicates that they are home brew feats.

Edit: Curse you Ninja NEO(Neoja?)! That's it, Ultra-herpes for you!

[Trollfiend]

LOL alright thanks you two for the clarification