Red Wizards of Thay on FRC

[DM Hawk]

Hail Cormyrians,

Please note the following update to the FRC Rules and Server Information, regarding Red Wizard Player Characters. Please contact me or your Friendly Neighborhood DM of choice if you have any questions.

Red Wizard characters created before these requirements were posted do not have to transition; the requirements apply on a go-forward basis.

Players wishing to play a Red Wizard of Thay need to be aware of the following requirements. While the Red Wizard PRC is not mechanically supported in Neverwinter Nights or on FRC, it does provide in game benefits due to the status and influence of those having the class. Before a character can be a Red Wizard on FRC the following criteria must be met or the character will be invalid as a Red Wizard:

1. The player must submit an application to the DM Team and receive approval before his or her character can be a Red Wizard.
2. The character must be human, from Thay, and have a Thayan appearance.
3. The character's alignment must be non-good.
4. The character may dabble in other classes but wizard must be the primary character class for a Red Wizard.
5. The character must adopt a Spell School as his or her Chosen School and have the Spell Focus and Greater Spell Focus feats in this school. Note: This does not mean the character must Specialize in a chosen school.
6. The character must have the Arcane Defense feat in his or her chosen school.
7. The character must take at least three additional metamagic or item creation feats (craft wand, empower spell, etc).
8. The character may not take the Spell Focus feat in the Spell School opposed to his or her Chosen School as defined by NWN. (see table below).

Chosen School	NWN Opposing School
Abjuration	Conjuration
Conjuration	Transmutation
Divination	Illusion
Enchantment	Illusion
Evocation	Conjuration
Illusion	Enchantment
Necromancy	Divination
Transmutation	Conjuration

frc.proboards.com/index.cgi?action=display&board=serverrules&thread=12050&page=1


Thanks,

The Forgotten Realms Cormyr DM Team

---

Note: The previously stated Red Wizard requirements are shown here for reference only. If a Red Wizard character was made under the requirements below and the player would like transition to the revised requirements above, please contact a Friendly Neighborhood DM.

1. The player must submit an application to the DM Team and receive approval before his or her character can be a Red Wizard.
2. The character must be human, from Thay, and have a Thayan appearance.
3. The character's alignment must be non-good.
4. The character must be a wizard and specialize in a school of magic at creation. The character may dabble in other classes but wizard must be the primary character class for a Red Wizard.
5. The character must take at least three metamagic or item creation feats (craft wand, empower spell, etc).

[DM Hawk]

The above post has been updated for clarity to address questions and feedback rec'd thus far. Thank you to those who came back with thoughts.


Also, Normally a new FRC rule announcement applies on a go forward basis and is not retroactive. Red Wizard Characters created before the publication of this rule change are allowed to continue, though exceptions may exist. If anyone has a question about their Red Wizard character specifically, please ask any member of the DM Team and we'll get back to you.

[probablyamage]

Does this mean that Red Wizards get some, or any of the perks of the prestige class, since they are required to conform to it?

[Mister Cicerone]

I think it's about time.

I appreciate the initiative of the DM team in wanting to better enhance a respect for the fundaments of a Red Wizard. There are mechanical perks/benefits of becoming a Red Wizard when playing PnP, but let's weigh in the simple fact that the meta feats liable to be chosen is going to be enough of a mechanical benefit on FRC.

There's already enough mechanical benefits for wizards. At this point, the players of such PC's should be concerned with the benefits and perks of what they'd earn through RP, but I'm certain most of us are aware of this.

[simon1981]

Aug 21, 2012 0:21:03 GMT -5 Mister Cicerone said:

I think it's about time.

I appreciate the initiative of the DM team in wanting to better enhance a respect for the fundaments of a Red Wizard. There are mechanical perks/benefits of becoming a Red Wizard when playing PnP, but let's weigh in the simple fact that the meta feats liable to be chosen is going to be enough of a mechanical benefit on FRC.

There's already enough mechanical benefits for wizards. At this point, the players of such PC's should be concerned with the benefits and perks of what they'd earn through RP, but I'm certain most of us are aware of this.

I'm not sure I agree on this. The stringent entry requirements for the class are balanced by the bonuses to spell casting power that it provides. By enforcing this without the benefits, Red Wizards will inherently be weaker than other wizards of the same level, greatly so if certain schools are taken as a specialism. So, one of the most feared spell casting groups in the entire FR setting are represented in game by a weaker class. In PnP, this matters less, because there is such a sheer variety of spells, specialists can more or less balance out their repertoire.

The metamagic feats required are taken as a matter of course in most wizard builds anyway, so I don't feel this is as much a benefit as suggested.

Basically, I feel this would all be fine and dandy IF there was a prestige class in the offering, like shifter, shadow dancer or blackguard. Without it, it seems rather dictatorial. That's the DM Team's prerogative, of course, but I don't expect to see many Red Wizards being made in the future.

[warmaster]

I do not mind the requirements now placed upon those who wish to play a Red Wizard.
The mandatory specializing means that you are going to suffer depending on which school you specialize in due to the Specializing not working the same way it should in Pen and Paper. But there are perks to specializing so it is not so bad.

The meta magic feats are ones that you are likely to take on any Wizard build also, so this is not really a boon as it was suggested. Since every Wizard will have the same feats and you will be lacking in spells. Taking the Arcane Defense feat also has some perks. The benefit to saves being the main one.

My only wish is that, like DM Archmage asked, is that Red Wizards got some perk to represent the focus in Tattoo Magic. Since this feat is not available in game yet it is a requirement in PnP. That would make it excellent, in my opinion. It would also make up for the sacrifice you make to specialize.

[megascorpion]

Aug 21, 2012 5:26:38 GMT -5 simon1981 said:

I'm not sure I agree on this. The stringent entry requirements for the class are balanced by the bonuses to spell casting power that it provides. By enforcing this without the benefits, Red Wizards will inherently be weaker than other wizards of the same level, greatly so if certain schools are taken as a specialism. So, one of the most feared spell casting groups in the entire FR setting are represented in game by a weaker class. In PnP, this matters less, because there is such a sheer variety of spells, specialists can more or less balance out their repertoire.

The metamagic feats required are taken as a matter of course in most wizard builds anyway, so I don't feel this is as much a benefit as suggested.

Basically, I feel this would all be fine and dandy IF there was a prestige class in the offering, like shifter, shadow dancer or blackguard. Without it, it seems rather dictatorial. That's the DM Team's prerogative, of course, but I don't expect to see many Red Wizards being made in the future.

Uhm, how is this more restricting than clerics being required to have their faiths domains?(Especially when not all domains are availible?) And uhm, as long as you're specialized in Illusion or necromancy, you're actually quite likely to be more powerful than a generalist as you'll get more spells per day

And most importantly, playing red wizards is basically like playing a noble, which is in all other cases illegal on FRC, I have always been of the opinion that it should be either entirely illegal or application based, as it does give IC clout simply for creating the character.

Aug 19, 2012 11:25:31 GMT -5 DM Hawk said:

2. The character must be human, from Thay, and have a Thayan appearance.

Just as a note as I've never seen one(And indeed they should be rare), but not all red wizards are Mulan(And the post indeed says Thayan and not Mulan), just for clarification and possibly discussion heh), there are Rashemi red wizards as well, though of course less common.

[warmaster]

The difference is very simple.

No matter what domains clerics select, deity dependent, they get the same base spells. They all have access to the same base spells. The domains can add new and different spells to it.

Specializing means you lose one entire school of spells. Now, in PNP, this is not so bad. Because you get to personally chose what school(s) you want to sacrifice. Which works really well. In NWN, however, you have no say in what school you are sacrificing. As you said, if you specialize in Illusion or Necromancy, you lose very little. But the key word there is "lose". Now my previous post says I am fine with this, which I am. But if the people playing Red Wizards have to make that sacrifice, they should get something to represent Tattoo Focus. Since they are losing a large part of what makes Red Wizards awesome. Otherwise you are just straight up losing out.

[megascorpion]

Except that you get one more spell per day at every spell level, so that you have 1 less spell per day than sorcerors, which is very significant... So there is no straight out 'loss', I would even say that a necromancer is quite a lot more powerful than a generalist, the only spell you're really losing out on is truesight and see invisibility, which for getting almost as many spells as sorcerors, is quite worth it

Not to mention that some domains and thus some faiths are 'much' more powerful than others for clerics too

EDITED

[Charon's Claw]

I would have to agree to disagree on that point, but it's a matter of wizardly preference. I do not see specializing as a boon preferably. Even then the only specialist worth anything is Necromancy, and that does not really encourage diversity. Generalist wizards, in my opinion and experience are more powerful than specialists, and I've played a lot of wizards. One extra spell slot per level is nice, but it's not really a great trade off for a whole school of spells that are blocked, especially with the limited spell selection in Neverwinter Nights. If this was table top, it would be a different story, especially since one would get the Red Wizard PrC

Not to mention a few specialist schools (Abjuration, Evocation, Transmuation), you can't use raise dead scrolls at all, so... whoops? Not worth the trade off and gimping of the wizard class. This is my personal opinion as a player by the way.

[malleus]

Well let this come from a Red Wizard.

playing a RW is not done for having a powerbuil its cores you love the RP of being a RW and the loss and gain dosn´t matter at all.

if you want a power build mage. then do a sorc / cleric / RDD if you want more of the RP power then go for the RW.

no extra is needed to be given to people picking RW over any other kind of wizards the RP power you get makes up for any item or perk.

the guide Hawk made here is the normal rules of RW with just a slight modification and its fine as it is no extra perk is needed.

to be honest if there was an extra perk to RW then there would be no reason for any evil wizard not to go RW and wupti we got half the server full of RW´s.

Sham Von Mensen Red Wizard of Thay School of Necromancy

[Charon's Claw]

It's not so much about being powerbuilt as being actually functional. Not being able to read a Raise Dead or Resurrection scroll is a pretty big gimp. Just sayin'. It seems to stifle more RP for that huge detriment than cause a boon, considering three schools will probably rarely to never be used. They've been done in the past, but 80% of the time I have had people tell me they regretted the choice.

((Also I play Kethoth Uuthrakt, so this comes from a Red Wizard player too.))

[warmaster]

Speaking as somebody whom is currently going through the application to become a Red Wizard, I am more then aware that the best part of being a Red Wizard is the Role Play that comes with it.

Nobody is saying that they want to be the all powerful, or a power build or anything of the sort. What is being said is that having to sacrifice an entire school of spells that we can not chose ourselves seems like a sacrifice. Especially when this is being done without any of the usual perks you would get for specializing. That being the actual PRC with it's bonus'. It is the same as paying for something, then not getting it. Now, as I said previously, I have no problem with that at all. I just think it would be nice to have something to represent the Tattoo Magic. So that it feels like the sacrifices got us the PRC we want to play.

[iangallowglas]

As far as being a Red Wizard goes, I don't feel they need any mechanical benefits as the RP should be good enough. If a benefit was given though, I wouldn't be opposed to it. Maybe that's wishy-washy, but I don't have any strong feelings on the subject.

However, my feelings on the application process are definitely biased against the whole application process. This is not because I feel it's handled poorly by the DM team or that I feel their is any inherent bias by DMs in the process. I just don't want more classes that require an application process to play.

I understand the need for applications to play certain classes, but I am and always will be, against the need to apply to someone (anyone) to play any class.

I believe applications take away from players choices. Some players (myself included) won't ever play a class that requires an application to play for various reasons, even though I'd like to think I could get approval to play most classes I would choose (except maybe Blackgaurd because I don't think I have the will to RP it correctly for any length of time).

I'll say again to be clear, this has nothing to do with the DM team. I feel that anyone should be given the right to pick their poison (so to say). If someone can't handle the RP, they will stick out like a sore thumb anyway, and likely won't play the character long, or stick around the server long enough to really matter.

This is just my personal opinion and I'm not advocating for removal of applications to take prestige classes. Mostly I'm just playing the devils advocate and voicing my opinion on the subject of applications for classes in the hope of limiting the number of classes that require an application.

[Andros]

Maybe red wizard characters can be given access to a unique store or a unique discount at the enclave? something to give them an edge, right now it seems they have to pay to drink spoiled water when every other wizard gets clear water for free.

Also just for clarity, this applies only to Wizards of Thay right? If one wishes to make a Thayan Knight or some other PC from thay, there is no restriction?

[megascorpion]

Aug 21, 2012 13:32:36 GMT -5 Charon's Claw said:

It's not so much about being powerbuilt as being actually functional. Not being able to read a Raise Dead or Resurrection scroll is a pretty big gimp. Just sayin'. It seems to stifle more RP for that huge detriment than cause a boon, considering three schools will probably rarely to never be used. They've been done in the past, but 80% of the time I have had people tell me they regretted the choice.

((Also I play Kethoth Uuthrakt, so this comes from a Red Wizard player too.))

Quite true that non illusionists or necromancers are quite useless though, yes (Necromancers basically only lose out on true sight and premonition though, which if you couldn't live your life without, no one would play any other class than generalist wizard though and one spell per day of every level gives you one less than sorcerrors, which lose out on quite a lot more spells than wizards heh. Anyhow, point being that giving them even more boons would both be unfair to others and encourage way to many red wizards running around in Cormyr I'd say )

And as mentioned, playing a red wizard is basically equal to playing a noble, which is in every other case illegal. If I liked that rule at all I'd even suggest that playing a red wizard at all should be illegal too heh(*cough, don't panic*).

[Andros]

Aug 21, 2012 14:25:52 GMT -5 megascorpion said:

And as mentioned, playing a red wizard is basically equal to playing a noble, which is in every other case illegal. If I liked that rule at all I'd even suggest that playing a red wizard at all should be illegal too heh(*cough, don't panick*).

People mention that but I'm not sure what it means, what kind of influence are they gaining access to? a free room at the enclave to sleep? free boiled eggs? or is there some NPC in the enclave handing out a monthly allowance to them or somesuch? (Never played a RW on FRC so I have no idea)

One would think that outside the enclave they would have 0 influence no? they certainly can't boss anyone around like they could if this where Forgotten Realms Thay (except for those rare non RW thayans that are on the server)

[kalbaern]

It's been said here that in PnP a Red Wizard gets to choose which Spell School he/she cannot use. While this is true, the statement is also misleading. In PnP a Red Wizard actually loses 3 entire Schools of Magic, not just one. Whichever school they focus in will have two others blocked to them. When you choose a Spell School to Specialise in, you have to choose two prohibited schools. When later you decide to become a Red Wizard, you forfiet yet another Spell School. Therefore, the arguement that lacking other features of the class here is limiting, is extremely shortsighted as unlike in PnP, NWN only prohibits a single school when you specialise.

Yes, you still cannot chose exactly which Spell School to lose, but it's also just one you are barred from here, not three as in PnP. There's also an exception for those choosing Divination as their Specialised School and they lose only one other School, plus a second when they become a Red Wizard. Nor can Divination be a blocked School for any Specialist in PnP. All of this aside, only having a single School barred in NWN, regardless of not choosing which is far less restrictive.

Sure, Bioware could have set up specialisation to choose the two Schools of your personal preferences. That would've also reguired not 8 Feats, but a total of 350 Specialisation School choices to cover all the myriad possibilities. Instead, they chose for us. They also went easy and blocked one School and not two. Was it a "fail" or is it a "win"? That depends on whom is asked, but I do think the results are fairly balanced.

As for the loss of "Tattoo Focus", that's minimal. Spell Focus and Spell Penetration Feats more than make up for it in the end.

"Tattoo Magic" is another story. Still, due to the mechanics and costs and limits of "Tattoo Magic", a PC can simply substitute rings, amulets and even scrolls and just -emote- them as a "tattoo" being used.

As far as any other benefits, percieved or real for a PC that is a Red Wizard here, I personally think they should become a full fledged guild first. Then Members would be recruited/admitted and we actually could provide them with some "flavor" items*.

*Guilds on FRC do not have items not usually commonly found elsewhere with only a few exceptions and those are never overpowering. Guild Merchants instead privide items specific to its members as a "One Stop" shopping source is all.

[Charon's Claw]

PnP has less restriction and typically less combat focused than NWN, thus the spells are more diverse, the encounters less, ect ect. Just another side note.

[EDM Neo]

In light of the controversy and it indeed being kinda lame for NWN to mandate pick one of only two or three specialist schools or else drastically cripple yourself mechanically, perhaps the DM team discuss the possibility of allowing a Red Wizard the option to substitute picking a specialist spell school at character creation with taking relevant spell focuses?

For example, instead of specializing in transmutation at character creation, the DM team could maybe allow a Red Wizard to take Spell Focus: Transmutation, and maybe even Greater Spell Focus or Arcane Defense: Transmutation, too, to better represent their mastery of the particular school.

This would prove less mechanically crippling, and truthfully, so far as flavor is concerned it's better for showing devotion to one school than actually specializing. In NWN, the bonus spell slot you get for being a specialist mage can be used for any spell, while in PnP it can only be used for spells of your specialist school. In NWN, though, as an example, a specialist necromancer is just as good at casting enchantments as a specialist enchanter is, until the enchanter takes spell focus enchantment.

[canuckkane]

Aug 19, 2012 11:25:31 GMT -5 DM Hawk said:

Players wishing to play a Red Wizard of Thay need to be aware of the following requirements. While the Red Wizard PRC is not mechanically supported in Neverwinter Nights or on FRC, it does provide in game benefits due to the status and influence of those having the class. Before a character can be a Red Wizard on FRC the following criteria must be met or the character will be invalid as a Red Wizard:

1. The player must submit an application to the DM Team and receive approval before his or her character can be a Red Wizard.
2. The character must be human, from Thay, and have a Thayan appearance.
3. The character's alignment must be non-good.
4. The character must be a wizard and specialize in a school of magic at creation. The character may dabble in other classes but wizard must be the primary character class for a Red Wizard.
5. The character must take at least three metamagic or item creation feats (craft wand, empower spell, etc).


frc.proboards.com/index.cgi?action=display&board=serverrules&thread=12050&page=1

I would like to point out that unlike the prestige classes, there is no restriction mentioned here about waiting until 10th level to call yourself a Red Wizard, additionally... there is also no requirement listed that you must be able to cast 3rd level spells the way the actual Red Wizard prestige class requires. All you have to do is send in the application and once it's approved you can be a red wizard. Having to apply to be a Red Wizard hardly seems like much of a hardship in my humble opinion.

[simon1981]

Aug 21, 2012 15:37:24 GMT -5 EDM Neo said:

In light of the controversy and it indeed being kinda lame for NWN to mandate pick one of only two or three specialist schools or else drastically cripple yourself mechanically, perhaps the DM team discuss the possibility of allowing a Red Wizard the option to substitute picking a specialist spell school at character creation with taking relevant spell focuses?

For example, instead of specializing in transmutation at character creation, the DM team could maybe allow a Red Wizard to take Spell Focus: Transmutation, and maybe even Greater Spell Focus or Arcane Defense: Transmutation, too, to better represent their mastery of the particular school.

This would prove less mechanically crippling, and truthfully, so far as flavor is concerned it's better for showing devotion to one school than actually specializing. In NWN, the bonus spell slot you get for being a specialist mage can be used for any spell, while in PnP it can only be used for spells of your specialist school. In NWN, though, as an example, a specialist necromancer is just as good at casting enchantments as a specialist enchanter is, until the enchanter takes spell focus enchantment.

This is a very good alternative. +1

[DM Hawk]

Hail Cormyrians,

The DM Team has discussed the requirements for Red Wizard characters as previously posted and has concluded that the requirements should be revised. Please see the original post in this thread for details.

These requirements apply on a go-forward basis. Red Wizard characters created before these requirements were posted do not have to transition.

If a player has created a Red Wizard character following the previously posted requirements and wishes to transition that character to the new requirements, please contact me or another Friendly Neighborhood DM for assistance.

If there are any further questions or concerns, please contact any member of the DM Team.

[DOT]

What constitutions “dabble” in other classes, how many?

[DM Maleficent's Kiss]

Oct 11, 2021 18:46:25 GMT -5 DOT said:

What constitutions “dabble” in other classes, how many?

Just keep wizard the highest. This reflects a dedication to wizardry and indicates a "dabbling" in other things.